| For Shame Academy | |
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Fate - Student  |
http://www.thejediacademy.net/forums_detail_page.php?f_id=13017 I'm very disappointed in the site staff for recent events. A long time member is wronged on irc and all you have to say is Quote: aron: ? No explanation of why Lianiotte was banned on irc? No explanation of why "screw you" is so terrible to put in a thread name? Not even an explanation of how long the ban will be or whether or not it's permanent?blablabla Quote: From the Jedi Academy rule's page: If you are caught violating these, it will result in an official JA warning. You only get one warning. If you violate the rules again you will be banned from the Academy. Excuse me if I'm blind, but I saw no "official JA warning". You know, I when I came to this community over two years ago it had things that I couldn't find anywhere else. A caring staff who were people friendly and who wanted to enhance the game for everyone. The servers were passworded and the staff used the admin mod not because they were on a power trip or wanted to control everyone who visited this community. The reason these restrictions were in place was because they wanted to keep out the trollers, spammers, and lamers who make games like JK2 and JK3 impossible to enjoy. If someone caused trouble on the server, such as laming, they were kicked. Repeated offenses became a ban. There was no screaming, no swearing, no anger, just action. Players mirrored this level of respect for other individuals and the happiness of others. Lianiotte has been a contributing member of this community for as long as I've been here. She deserved better than this. A warning would have sufficed. Admins have more power than the simple ban button. Admins also have a responsibility to utilize their powers in such a way that helps the situation rather than hurts it. It all comes down to the simple question, why do we have rules in the first place? "So that if Player Such and Such annoys me I can get rid of them" or is it "So that the enjoyment of a maximum number of people can be realized to its fullest"? I'm aware that all of my words might have little or no impact at all, but I hope you'll at least consider the effect you're having on others. I'm hanging up my lightsaber for now because this place is no longer the place I once knew. _______________ I must not fear . Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear . I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Gom gom gom gom gom! |
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Aron - Retired 
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I'll be very short about this. First of all, there is no need for a staff member to explain the reasons for a kick or ban to the public. Secondly: You were right, Lianiotte has been a member for a long time. That is EXACTLY why she should have known better. Before creating the post she created, she knew VERY well what the consequences could have been. Thirdly: another reason why she should have known that, is because she is the recordholder of bans in the academy. I am not even overreacting here. The admin-level comments on her profile outnumber those of EVERYONE. That is also a reason why a warning was not only unneeded, but even out of the question. Lianiotte has had so many warnings in the past, which she decided to ignore over and over. For those reasons, she has been banned more than once; not only from IRC, but also the Academy. The staff has actually been quite nice on her, seeing the fact that she was given so many chances. If this would have happened with a student who would not have this "record" of disbehaviour, this would most likely not have been a ban, but in the case of Lianiotte, there are many other factors that totally justify this ban. As for the "bla bla bla" reply: I posted something else in advance, which have probably mis-interpreted a lot worse. Does the 'bla bla bla' has a negative tone in it? Definately. And that was exactly what I ment with it. I considered, and still consider that thread and the constant fuss around this kind of stuff totally gibberish, and at times like that I am simply fed up with it. I will not apologize for that, simply because I do not see why I should. If you feel I do, that's too bad for you. The 'bla bla bla' does not imply I am a person lacking respect. It implies I hate this kind of bull, and that the respect I have or had for people who constantly explore the borders is definately not the same amount of respect that any other student would be getting. This comment was edited by Aron on Jul 20 2005 03:14pm. |
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Aron - Retired
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This thread has served it's purpose. TO THE THREADCAVE!  |
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Gradius - Ex-Student 
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Because he still loves this place, just wants to check up on things from time to time.  Love ya Kryt. _______________ - Proud padawan of Kueller. - We really are at the beginning of it all. The trick, of course, is to make sure we never find the end. - Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything - <gen-e-sis-happy> Liek, you can train, liek, a n00b, but he'll just be a trained n00b... --> Wise words! - "daer SOE me likes your a company i am having your some money for letting me do stuff cos mes the best amd i do it all meself" - Slider |
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Acey Spadey - Student 
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Quote: I think the world has lost it's sense of humor. Can't everyone just grow up and shut up. Damnit ya'll. I see way too many posts like this. And you wonder why I left. There's your frickin' answer. GTFU. I'm sure ya'll can figure that one out. Kryt out. Peace.  no offence or anything but... just a curious thought.... if you left..how is it you still check and post on the forums _______________ .Lag Bro to Xanatos. Adopted Twin to Bubu. Big-Brother to SmilyKrazy ---- JATSRAD Guru, JASE Member, JA SP Mod Staff ---- The Order of the Stick -- Big thanks to Mango for my avatar -- Quote: Sometimes you've got to specifically go out of your way to get into trouble. It's called fun.
Quote: (Random hella old quote) <Fizz of Belouve> .. in sovjet russia, cereals spit at YOU!
Quote: whats the point of growing up, if your not allowed to act childish!
Padawan - Henkes
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Lucky Mintaka - Ex-Student 
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this is why i tend to not care what decisions the staff makes. _______________ Vasper Adept-1600 Comment Raydoe-150 comment Pink -Floyd 425 comment |
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Krytikyl - Student 
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I think the world has lost it's sense of humor. Can't everyone just grow up and shut up. Damnit ya'll. I see way too many posts like this. And you wonder why I left. There's your frickin' answer. GTFU. I'm sure ya'll can figure that one out. Kryt out. Peace. _______________ Padawan for life to Motrec. Godspeed to all that enter my realm. The human race is mentally slowing down, and it makes me sick. This comment was edited by Krytikyl on Jul 22 2005 12:59am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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If someone is banned from IRC for any long length of time and you don't see a reason given, you can bet that 99.9% of the time it was for some of the last things they said. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Fate - Student 
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That was my point. I encourage you to review what I actually said regarding the nature of public vs. private warnings. _______________ I must not fear . Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear . I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Gom gom gom gom gom! |
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Setementor - Jedi Master 
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She was warned a lot. You don't always see the warnings, though, just the bad stuff on the outside. |
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Fate - Student
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The issue I had was not with the ban itself. It is about respect. Whether or not she deserved a ban is an entirely different argument. I wish she wasn't banned, and if it was me I wouldn't have banned her, however, my issue is with the way she was treated and the effect it is going to have on this community. I'll try and take this in chronological order to keep it as simple as possible. First there was the kick/ban on irc. No reason provided for the kick. When someone does something wrong, yes you punish, but you must also inform. Not only should the issue be clarified to Lianiotte, but also to those present. A kick/ban is not just a punishment, it is a preventative measure. It's supposed to say "This behavior that we have seen is not being tolerated and will not be tolerated in the future." It serves not only to warn the player who has done wrong, but those who did not see it as wrong. Then she posts on the forums. Banned from the forums. All the info given is "bla bla bla ". Now we are left to wonder, "Was the ban for repeated disrespect to authority? Will I be banned if I made a topic with the words "Screw you <insert target>"? Will I be banned if it's in a post and not a thread name? If I'm banned on irc do I have to stay off the forums?" They may seem like simple questions with simple answers to those of us who have been around a long time, but the answers may differ from community to community. Additionally, one is left to wonder, "Was the ban for this particular action, or even repeated offenses, or was it vengeance instead?" Was the ban meant to say, "This behavior is against the rules." or was it to say "I'm tired of dealing with you."? The response of "bla bla bla " indicates the latter to me. And regarding my stating: Quote: Lianiotte has been a contributing member of this community for as long as I've been here. She deserved better than this. I'm not trying to say "If I break the rules, I expect to get off the hook because I've been here a long time." Hardly. I agree, those who have been around the longest should know the rules the best. But when someone is around that long they become friends and comrades. As such, though you might still ban her, she deserves more of an explanation than she got. Friends deserve at least simple respect. Also, I've seen your responses that she may have received warnings in private, and I understand you don't want to single out or publicly shame anyone, but where does that leave the rest of us? We are left to ponder the questions I've already stated, and wonder "Can I do this? Can I do that?" because without the guidance of the staff we cannot predict what will result in a ban. _______________ I must not fear . Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear . I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Gom gom gom gom gom! |
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Aron - Retired 
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Quote:
Quote: Even make a model with those cool hats! That's what Aron wanted. Darn right! Virtue, make me an officer Wiggum model! |
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Acey Spadey - Student
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Quote:
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Quote: Excuse me if I'm blind, but I saw no "official JA warning". If you saw an official JA warning you'd be seeing things you shouldn't be. Warnings come in the forms of e-mails to the student and a comment on their profile you can't see. Jaiko was right on Lian being on a 99.999% warning. We've been extremely lenient on her in the past despite her having this. So if you're going to leave the academy over the JAC's showing probably the most compassion and respect to someone who spit in our faces about it all the time then you're clearly looking at this from the wrong position. Buzz tbph i think what Fate is trying to show you is the fact that that rule is there and no pulic warning was given...thats all. and i agree with Jacen (ugh..) ""no pulic warning was given""" if that was needed for every single infringement... you would be singling people out as troublemakers.. which is NOT what we want to do here... thats why people are quietly warned or punished or even banned.. heres another thought to think about.. or whatever you want to do with it.. have a look at who is removed from the academy... now.. is it those you they get close to that ring the bell first bringing attention to it.. sure.. your online friend may be banned, but you don't have to scream bloody murder for them.. if they wish to complain or appologize.. they can do it themselves through the email.. I wasn't going to say it but I might as well, As everyone else says it.. and now.. it just sounds silly. "I've been with the academy for this long so I know what I'm talking about" pffft.. and thats my comment on that.. ok who's next.. ok back to about the friend thing... another thing I've lost count of.. when someone is removed.. the friend writes a post saying.. " Its unfair that they were removed .. bring them back.. " " they are really really sorry.. can they come back " " they didn't really mean it ." " IF you don't let them back in.. I will leave " <-- now thats really silly.. excuse me while I get out my miniature violin.. ok I'll shush now _______________ .Lag Bro to Xanatos. Adopted Twin to Bubu. Big-Brother to SmilyKrazy ---- JATSRAD Guru, JASE Member, JA SP Mod Staff ---- The Order of the Stick -- Big thanks to Mango for my avatar -- Quote: Sometimes you've got to specifically go out of your way to get into trouble. It's called fun.
Quote: (Random hella old quote) <Fizz of Belouve> .. in sovjet russia, cereals spit at YOU!
Quote: whats the point of growing up, if your not allowed to act childish!
Padawan - Henkes
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Gradius - Ex-Student
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Quote: Even make a model with those cool hats! That's what Aron wanted. _______________ - Proud padawan of Kueller. - We really are at the beginning of it all. The trick, of course, is to make sure we never find the end. - Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything - <gen-e-sis-happy> Liek, you can train, liek, a n00b, but he'll just be a trained n00b... --> Wise words! - "daer SOE me likes your a company i am having your some money for letting me do stuff cos mes the best amd i do it all meself" - Slider |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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Quote: I hear time and time again about how the JA has changed. However, what no one mentions is how the biggest change isn't in the JAK+; it's in the students. The JAK+ doing their job and banning people like Lian isn't what's wrong with the JA. Things that are wrong is stuff like older students thinking they have some kind of superiority over newer ones. I can't tell you how depressing it is to hear a fellow student exclaim about how long he has been in the JA, as if he felt like he deserved something for that. I watch this line get used all the time. Older students use it to discredit the opinions of newer students, to argue against admin action, and to create a sense of superiority amongst their peers. Trivial things like the 'oldbie council' and 'oldbie's unite' are nice in that they bring back old friends, but they shun and exclude the new students. It stinks how the older students don't look at the newer ones and remember that they were once new students in the Academy as well. Anyways I just wanted to get that off my chest Your right Tido, the student body has change. The JAK+ has changed as well. As I said before, the students attitude will reflect how he is taught. Not that I'm using my long time here to overshadow any of the new members in any way. I always try to help anyone who asks it of me, as do a lot of others. But I remember when this place was much more strict. Not to the point of not being fun. Quite the opposite really. disrespect was not tolerated they way it has been here lately. I know some of you are saying "I havent seen any" or just brush what I just said to the side. Thats ur choice. Something I've seen alot of is people coming in off the pubs wearing their CLAN tags and treating newer less experienced players like dirt. I'm glad I didn't have to deal with that when I first arrived here. As far as the banning goes, I for one have no problem with it. Sometimes I don't think theres enough of it. I think it would be great if the JAK's roamed the servers like Drill Sgt's whipin this place back into shape. Even make a model with those cool hats! _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
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Hardwired - Retired 
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As the author of the rules I will throw my moneys worth. Mind you. This isn't anything that hasn't already been said. You get a warning before a ban, this is true. But for one thing. The warning needs to in no way be public and it seldome is. The person that it affects is aware of it and the staff is. Secondly is that Lian, as stated earlier, has been banned several times before and was let back in under a probation basis if you will. Meaning that is she goes of the handle again there will be harsh followings. I assure you that the rules are followed to the letter by all staff members. That has always been the case. Instead of questioning the decitions I would urge a little more turst in the staffs judgements. They often possess a larger picture than the general population and make carefully weighted decitions on everything. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Gradius - Ex-Student 
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Quote:
Quote: Fate should have come to the JAK+, surely, but who? Who do you talk to? That would be me, the resident agony aunt of the JA No matter that the problem, what the size or topic if you have a problem im more than happy to help -JaikoD'Kana- Same with me. All of the JAK+ are here for that. If you have a problem with a specific JAK+, including a JAC, I would recommend going to that person first in a friendly, civilized manner. _______________ - Proud padawan of Kueller. - We really are at the beginning of it all. The trick, of course, is to make sure we never find the end. - Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything - <gen-e-sis-happy> Liek, you can train, liek, a n00b, but he'll just be a trained n00b... --> Wise words! - "daer SOE me likes your a company i am having your some money for letting me do stuff cos mes the best amd i do it all meself" - Slider |
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Jaiko D'Kana - Student 
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Quote: Fate should have come to the JAK+, surely, but who? Who do you talk to? That would be me, the resident agony aunt of the JA No matter that the problem, what the size or topic if you have a problem im more than happy to help -JaikoD'Kana- _______________ The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind. William James (1842 - 1910) This comment was edited by Jaiko D'Kana on Jul 20 2005 11:56pm. |
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sm00th! - Student 
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I do somewhat feel as if the quality and clarity of message among the jak's has fallen to the wayside slightly. I think a good indicator of this is the frequency of admins either going incognito as well as the many who do not wear their correct rank tags consistently. A good parallel to this would be the undercover cop versus the regular cop. While they are both cops, the undercover cop seeks to find wrongdoers whereas the regular police officer serves to help the public in general and his mere prescence is enough to knock any sane criminal into line. _______________ Go Ahead, Enlighten Yourself. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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First off I want to make one thing clear I did not argue about the fact whether or not the ban was justified. I too think it was. I was just upset by the "blablabla" part and THAT is where I agreed with Fate. Second, I owe Aron an apology, and it was Buzz that made me see this by his post. You have totally convinced me the reason of Aron's reaction, and I'm sorry to have made such a problem of it Aron. You were right. But still I have to say that everything would have been better than "blablabla", but what's done is done, and old cows have no use drowning in a ditch Quote: In the JA today, it is becoming too common for someone to be banned and the first assumption is admin-abuse. I also want to make it clear that I did not think Aron "abused" his powers in any way. Quote: Very wrong move on your part by starting this thread, Fate. You should've came straight to a JAK+. For shame indeed, directed towards you. But I don't think Fate deserves this comment. Yes, in the end, he made the same mistake as Lian by taking it to the forums. But he should not be ashamed of doing this, nor should any shame be put upon him because of it. Look at Jaiko's comment. He seems somehow glad that Fate has done this, because he gained an insight in the student's mind. Fate should have come to the JAK+, surely, but who? Who do you talk to? This is the exact problem that I usually face. Who can you talk to about your problems? If you want to complain about Aron (not that I wanted or anything, just using it as an example here) who do you go to? It's not as easy as it sounds just talking to someone. It's not like you can just pick one out at random. This is a problem that has to be faced sometime by the JAK+, because I am 100% positively sure that more students face this problem. Somehow I get the feeling that the JAK+ from now, are more remote than they used to be (as in the JK2 days, for example). but like Tido say the fault may lie with the student-body as well. I do not disagree that a lot has changed because of the students. One last thing I'd like to point out is that I did not want to question the authorities here at the JA. I agree with the rules and how they are maintained. I'm sorry for my rash behaviour towards Aron, and the entire JAK+ body. _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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MOTREC - Student 
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wow. i read the thread lian made and its surprisingly tame considering her past endeavors. ive seen things come from that persons fingers that almost made ME blush.(*note ALMOST) which segways to my next point which is: if you think you have earned the right to act in a less than appropriate manner just because you have been here a while (which is totally how lian handles herself) then you really need to rethink your position or if you cant get past it, leave. as far as lian contributing goes... the only person she really contributed to was herself in thinking that she could speak her mind here ANY WAY she saw fit. i hope for hers and all our sakes she doesnt become the new ja yo-yo. knowing your place = shutting your mouth (hard lesson learned for me, but learned well) nothing but love guys and fate quitting over this is not a fight well fought. stick around and see what happens. you might be surprised. burn rubber not your soul... MO |
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Azrael - Student 
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I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. But I have a small tidbit of advice. If you are banned from the Academy for misbehaving, the least you could do would be write a well thought out letter of apology to the staff and whoever else you offended, instead of posting a topic named "Screw You" The community here seems to be to be exactly as you described it earlier in your post and I'm sorry to see that you are leaving the academy because of it. Take care fellow Jedi. _______________ The first step to knowing everything is knowing that you know nothing. The first step to knowing nothing is thinking that you know everything. If I'm going to suffer, I might as well suffer in a way that makes someone else happy. Never argue with an idiot. They'll lower you to their level and beat you with experience. This comment was edited by Azrael on Jul 20 2005 10:43pm. |
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Gradius - Ex-Student
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Very wrong move on your part by starting this thread, Fate. You should've came straight to a JAK+. For shame indeed, directed towards you. _______________ - Proud padawan of Kueller. - We really are at the beginning of it all. The trick, of course, is to make sure we never find the end. - Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything - <gen-e-sis-happy> Liek, you can train, liek, a n00b, but he'll just be a trained n00b... --> Wise words! - "daer SOE me likes your a company i am having your some money for letting me do stuff cos mes the best amd i do it all meself" - Slider |
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Tido - Student 
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From reading all this and knowledge from my experience as a Knight, I believe firmly the JAC are in the right here. Lian made it her business to cause controversy and push every boundary she could find. The only thing that is truely for shame here is how she spat in the faces of those who forgave her the first time. Perhaps the worst part of all of this is the fact we make posts like this. In the JA today, it is becoming too common for someone to be banned and the first assumption is admin-abuse. The major complaint is typically that the JAK+ didn't make the reasons or causes of the ban public. There are very good reasons why admin matters are not made public. Afterall, shielding us from the bs is exactly what the JAK+ do. They deal with crap everyday so the rest of us don't have to. To us everything is bright and shiny in the JA, but there probably isn't a single day that goes by without the JAK+ having to address an unfavorable character. It's a crappy job and I know it can be really depressing for the JAK+. It makes it even worse when they spend all this time trying to keep the JA clean and the students they work for turn and point an accusing finger at them. I hear time and time again about how the JA has changed. However, what no one mentions is how the biggest change isn't in the JAK+; it's in the students. The JAK+ doing their job and banning people like Lian isn't what's wrong with the JA. Things that are wrong is stuff like older students thinking they have some kind of superiority over newer ones. I can't tell you how depressing it is to hear a fellow student exclaim about how long he has been in the JA, as if he felt like he deserved something for that. I watch this line get used all the time. Older students use it to discredit the opinions of newer students, to argue against admin action, and to create a sense of superiority amongst their peers. Trivial things like the 'oldbie council' and 'oldbie's unite' are nice in that they bring back old friends, but they shun and exclude the new students. It stinks how the older students don't look at the newer ones and remember that they were once new students in the Academy as well. Anyways I just wanted to get that off my chest  . |
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Henkes - Student 
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Fleb! There are rules... please follow them... if you don't it's bye bye! You don't like the rules? Get out! Easy like that! Sorry about the harshness, but i'm getting really pissed off at threads that question the integrity of our staff members... They do a fantastic job. Please give them some credit, without them this place would be another flame forum/public server _______________ Get on your feet and do the Funky Alfonzo! This comment was edited by Henkes on Jul 20 2005 09:39pm. |
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CuZzA - Student 
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Quote:
Quote: Excuse me if I'm blind, but I saw no "official JA warning". If you saw an official JA warning you'd be seeing things you shouldn't be. Warnings come in the forms of e-mails to the student and a comment on their profile you can't see. Jaiko was right on Lian being on a 99.999% warning. We've been extremely lenient on her in the past despite her having this. So if you're going to leave the academy over the JAC's showing probably the most compassion and respect to someone who spit in our faces about it all the time then you're clearly looking at this from the wrong position. Buzz tbph i think what Fate is trying to show you is the fact that that rule is there and no pulic warning was given...thats all. and i agree with Jacen (ugh..) _______________ - Even if Carlsberg made "w*nkers", Christiano Ronaldo would still be the biggest "w*nker" in the world |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Quote: Lianiotte has been a contributing member of this community for as long as I've been here. She deserved better than this. Ehhhh? Allow me to quote myself, as I wrote on her profile: Quote: I'd just like to point out, it's not like for every year you're around the JA, you receive a "get out of jail"-freecard... Really, how come people keep getting surprised—even outraged—when someone with a lower profile ID than 5000 gets banned? This comment was edited by Jacen Aratan on Jul 20 2005 08:24pm. |
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