| episodes 1&2 recking star wars | |
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.1.Exodus.1. - ex-Student |
does any one here think episodes 1&2 were real shit (besides the fight scenes)and have been made for 5 year olds e.g JAR JAR BINKS
i just want to know is there anyone who agrees with me here? |
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Jedi Al Khalaas - Student 
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Sounds like a cop out to me....... |
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Buzz - Student 
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Probably just the same reason the star destroyers didn't attack. The Emperor was a sick sick stupid man that wanted to wipe them out with his favorite toy _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Kalheka - Student 
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No I have never read the X-Wing novels, the TRD explanation does answer that. That explains my complaints about Empire not properly handling fighters.
The executor could have developed enough sheild damage to have a hole or two in its shields, but that still doesn't justify SMALL fighters being able to knock out the shield generator like that. The small fighters SHOULDN'T have had the firepower to do it. It should have taken firepower from a Heavy fighter. Yes I remember that the empire had fighters deployed for the battle of endor. The didn't show any fighters heavy enough to take on the Mon Calamari cap ships though. That could be explained as a mistake in Imperial tactics, but it looks sorta like a major oversight to me. _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Buzz - Student
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Kalheka, have you ever read the X-wing novels? Three letters: TRD. That stands for Trench Run Defense. It mentions there how the Imperials continually refuse to really accept the threat snubfighters do pose to their capital ships. They do have fighters deployed at Endor you remember I hope so its not that the empire didn't have them launched. And as for knocking out the shield generators. I'm sure that they were well defended by the shields. But say you want to blow up a building with the least amount of effort. You aren't going to start at the top and work your way down. You're going to knock out the support beams. The shields, and shield generators are the star destroyers support beams. If you over stress the shields holes are going to form and more than likely where a lot of the stress is. So if you hit the shields around the shield generators, holes will form and allow shots to contact the generators blowing them up. I seriously doubt that the attacks they showed destroying shield generators are the only blasts that occurred to destroy them. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Kalheka - Student
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Holy crap that's a long post. Sorry about that guys  _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Kalheka - Student 
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Slackworth:
Yes the empire was expecting to rape the rebels at Hoth. So I could see some errors. HOWEVER: Tie Fighters are Aerospace fighters, they didn't need to be adapted to the cold of Hoth, space is already colder than Hoth. The vehicles that the rebels used that needed to be adapted to the cold were Air Speeders (Snowspeeders they were called). They needed to be adapted to the cold for some reason. Also, using your info for the ROTJ scene, if small fighters had the capability of taking out the flagship (small fighters took out the sheilds, then the a-wing hit the bridge and took it out) then small fighters could have taken out Star Destroyers as well, making it necessary to defend against them. Imperial fighters should have been deployed. Repeating for your ROTJ thing: Yes when the A-wing hit the flagship, the shields were down. My point was, it was small fighters that took out the shields. Not the heavy fighters that the Alliance used (B-Wings) Quote: The massive buildup of ships, as the prelude to imperial control, was marked with the construction of an entire fleet in almost no time at all. Productions were off the scale, and all safety limits were passed. They always refer to the Republic Army (not the republic Navy). Where did that information come from? I don't remember seeing it anywhere. Buzz: Yes I can see the that as a Trade Federation they might not be militarily minded. However they did manage to be clever enough to mount a successful blockade, outsmarting the Naboo military. In episode 2, I didn't really see Nute Gunray as wanting alot of blood. He just wanted alot of Padme's blood
At Geonosis if there had been a battle going on in space, then it would have been likely that Dooku wouldn't have escaped in what amounts to a frickin SAILBOAT! I never brought up the battle of Yavin, but since you did: That had to have been one of the single hugest mistakes the empire ever made. That was just plain dumb to allow the death star to float around with no other real support. They didn't have any Star Destroyers backin it up or anything. Tarkin's arrogance alone cost them that battle. Yes I do remember the reasoning that they gave for the empire not launching fighters. Also the rebellion didn't field a large number of fighters for that battle. The one imperial officer that reported the attack to Vader said 30. At Hoth, yes I remember the stupidity of Admiral Ozzel, no contest on that. Yeah, I remember also that the shield was up. However, the AT-AT's were able to waltz right on in under/through that shield. And Tie-Fighters/Tie-Bombers could have flown low enough to do the same. Since Tie-Fighters are an aerospace fighter, they are set up for extreme cold (space is very cold) so they should have had no problem flying around Hoth's surface. Yes I understand about the Imperials wanting to capture rebels, they wanted Luke. But again, as seen in ROTJ small fighters are somehow a threat to the big cap ships, so they should have been dealt with accordingly and they were not. Another imperial mistake. Endor: Yeah I always understood the close quarters fighting between cap-ships like that, the deathstar was a bigger threat to the rebel fleet. Yes I know that the Imperial Fleet was ordered to keep the rebel fleet from getting away from the deathstar, and that's why they didn't attack right away, I never questioned that. Once the fighting did break out like that though, the imperials didn't use their bombers to attack the rebels. We saw the rebel bombers (b-wings)flying around out there. The Empire should have deployed bombers and didn't. On the destruction of the Executor, my only objection to that was that the shield generators got taken out by small fighters, seems to me that the sheilds should have been protecting those generators when they got blown. The sheilds would have had to be down first I think. When the executor went down I think you and slackworth nailed it. Once the bridge got destroyed they didn't have time to switch over functions to another place before the gravity around the deathstar sucked it in. Again my only real objection to this is the manner in which the executor was disabled. _______________ Death is only the beginning. This comment was edited by Kalheka on Jan 02 2003 01:25pm. |
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Buzz - Student 
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About some of the battles and why they went that way: Let's not forget that in episode 1 its a TRADE Federation. Doesn't really sound like a militarily minded organization does it. So they probably aren't the most brilliant strategists. And Nute Gunray seemed to want a lot of blood in episode 2 so it probably isn't a farfetched idea to say that they'd rather see their powerful droid army wipe out the puny gungans rather than bombard them from the air.
At Geonosis, there's really no evidence that there wasn't a battle in space occuring. I also remember reading somewhere that there was one planned, maybe even filmed, but they already had so much going on that they cut it from the film. At Yavin, Tarkin wasn't concerned with the possible threat the fighters posed. He only sent out the fighters under Vaders command to deal with them and expected his Deathstar to destroy Yavin so why worry. At Hoth, Ozzel screwed up giving the rebels a chance to raise their shield. It protected them from bombardment so the imperials had to knock it down on the ground. What the rebels were doing was a delaying action to allow as many people to escape as possible. When the first transport left the imperial captain didn't even worry about the ion cannon, he wanted to capture the rebels not destroy them so he didn't send out his fighters. At Endor, Lando suggested something unorthodox by their standards, engage the larger ships at point blank range. Before it had always been more long range attacks between capital ships. And once again the imperials were expecting a rout so the star destroyers didn't start shooting and wiping out the rebel ships like they should have because they had orders. Why would they send out their heavy bombers to pound the ships as well. The alliance was planning to fly in and destroy the deathstar, not pound its surface. The bombers look slower than other fighters so while the bombers might be nailing the star destroyers surface taking shots from its guns, the faster ships are zipping by doing hit and runs on the shields generators. When the Executor died the empire seemed to be in more of a panic,it probably did have more damage than just the bridge but when that was destroyed they were probably unprepared to shift command functions to a secondary bridge or other parts of the ship and by the time they were it was probably hitting the deathstar. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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slackworth - Ex-Student |
Also back to Geo :
The massive buildup of ships, as the prelude to imperial control, was marked with the construction of an entire fleet in almost no time at all. Productions were off the scale, and all safety limits were passed. They always refer to the Republic Army (not the republic Navy). This is because at that time, it did not exist yet. And if it did, we see the control pods for trade fed ships taking off from geo. It is reasonable to assume that the connecting ships are in orbit, engaging any fleet the republic had sent. |
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slackworth - Ex-Student |
I am afraid I will have to challenge that whole Hoth and ROTJ scene. You see:
Hoth: Imperials were expecting an overwhelming victory. They pulled their heavy ships (SDestroyers) to prevent escapees. They could not be part of the bombardment. With the expectation of the coming victory, security was left a bit lax. The fighter craft were at this point unmodified for the extreme cold of Hoth... And the rebels were so well entrenched, fighters would have only been able to strafe troops. And lets not forget the energy shield that protected the whole base. If troop ships must land beyond the shielding, then we can assume that fighters could not pass through as well. ROTJ: In regards to the little Rebel kill Big Imp (A Wings VS SSD) the shields were out. A ship that large (worth an entire fleet of ISD's) is extremely automated. Take out the automation centers, and the ship is a drift. Add a large gravity well (Death Star II) and you have a massive scene of destruction. |
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Kalheka - Student
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As big as the droid control ship is, it's got the capabilites to target a small area and bombard it, such as the few hundred square yards of the gungan army congregating. And we did get a pretty good look at its armaments. Even if the ship itself couldn't handle that, they had more than enough droid fighters to face off against the attacking Naboo fighters, and still have a wing to send down to the planet after the gungans, again leaving the gungans out in the cold before they ever got started.
Ok, on to the Geonosis conflict. The ships they showed at the end of the movie HAD to be the same ships that delivered the clone army to geonosis. The reasoning: The clone army was 10 years in development. It takes that long to build ships of that size as well, the ships had to have been planned at the same, or it would have been at least another 10 years before they had ships available. Also I will throw even more into the mix. Hoth. At the battle of Hoth, the Imperial Army uses NO air support for the AT-AT's, and NO fighter support for the Star Destroyers! Same thing here, showing a lack of military tactical knowledge, that battle should have been multi-layered, and it wasn't. The only battle sequence that I can think of that was handled fairly properly was the Battle of Endor in ROTJ. Even that had mistakes. Both sides have bombers and heavy craft made for taking down large vessels. It was light fighters that they showed taking down the Imperial flagship. You never see imperial heavy craft take down anything rebel. It makes the empire look inept. Granted though, it kinda makes the Rebellion look dynamic and cunning, but it's a little too one-sided for me. _______________ Death is only the beginning. This comment was edited by Kalheka on Dec 31 2002 06:49am. |
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slackworth - Ex-Student |
The fleet at Geo was just a transport fleet. We dont even begin to see an armed assault ship until the end when the troops are mobilizing for the clone wars (the Star Destroyer Look alikes.)
As for Naboo, one ship, especially a control ship (aka flagship) is not going to be able to affect an effective bombardment, even against the less than perfect (by less, i mean extremly imperfect) gungans. I could see in this example however, a starfighter bombardment on behalf of the Trade federation, as the droid starfighters would make effective straffers. |
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Kalheka - Student
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slackworth, if the republic had no fleet for geonosis, how did they get all those troops and armor to geonosis?  They had a fleet of some kind.
On Naboo, when the battle that I'm talking about took place, there was only 1 ship in orbit, there was no blockade. That ship was the droid control ship. It should have been able to reposition for bombardment. _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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slackworth - Ex-Student |
One Major Problem with your whole Geo Battle Sequence. At the time of the battle, the republic had NO FLEET. It was impossible to bombard from orbit, there were no ships there.
On to Naboo, in order to bombard, you actually have to reposition ships to get a clear firing angle and what not, which disrupts an effective blockade, which was the priorty at the time. |
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Buzz - Student
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Actually I don't think it can. If you go to the Star Wars databank on cloning in the EU it does mention other types of cloning. Its never actually said that the Spaarti Cylinders are what the Kamino use and also the training and growth is different as well. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Darth Revan - Ex-Student 
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Ok I agree Boba being a clone is far better than being a journeyman protector. I am just hoping ep 3 doesn't mess up all the stuff already written about the clone wars in Zahn's novals. _______________ formally known as jedi master, vanished and returned as the new sith lord |
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Kalheka - Student
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That's the inherent problem with the expanded universe stuff anyhow. It's all subject to the will and whims of the original creator. The same problem has been going on with Star Trek as well.
What makes it even worse is that the EU stuff has been expanded on G.L.'s own characters. _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Buzz - Student
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Actually jedi master, there are several EU stories to Boba Fett's origins. The two I know of are the journeyman protector, and that he is a failed stormtrooper. Those could be the only two stories I don't know. The failed stormtrooper works though, since Jango is the template for the Troopers and Boba. I wouldn't take anything in the Tales books as solid concrete EU. Take Bossk's story in Tales of the Bounty Hunters. He was disgusted at mammals eating other mammals, but in the Bounty Hunter Wars he ate his siblings as a hatchling and then ate his father. Boba Fett being a Journyman Protector named Jaster Mereel seems almost boring. A boy who watched his father get slain by a jedi though, now there's room for vendetta's there. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Darth Revan - Ex-Student 
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My only problem is that it changes some of the expanded universe's story lines (the most noteable one being boba fett being a clone when it was explained in the EU that he was a journeymen protector) _______________ formally known as jedi master, vanished and returned as the new sith lord |
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Kueller - Student 
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Well, I think episode 1 was totally sucking ***. I thought II was a lot better. I have been thinking that G.L. did it intentionally. Because if Ep I is bad, there can be an only better 2. He cashed in big time. First, not because quality but for the descendent of 4,5,6 -Ep 1-. And then a masterpiece like Ep II (not better then ep 7), so many people watched for different reason. So, I think the reason why Ep 1 was bad is money! _______________ Personal sleepness-nights-supporter of Virtue. Owner of the 1000th comment of Daidalus and 1943th comment of Gradius! Owner of the 300th comment of Carda! -Taught Gradius all his laming skills 
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Kalheka - Student
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True about the gungans having those shields. However they didn't turn them on until they saw the battle droids crest the hill. They were vulnerable to bombardment for some time before the batte.
I don't buy the gladiator style of battle, because we are talking about advanced civilations with knowledge and technology beyond our own. Fighting a battle that way is a gross misuse of resources, and shows a serious lack of knowledge of combat tactics. Granted it was an honorable fighting style in the days of the roman gladiators. However, it was also abandoned long ago because it wasn't practical. Thats just the gungan battle. Now on to the Battle for Geonosis: There should NEVER have been a ground fight at geonosis after the Jedi were rescued. Again, HUGE waste of resources! They should have withdrawn and the fleet should have pounded Geonosis from space, then air support should have rolled in and pounded them further, then you roll in ground support to mop up whats left. As for gladiator style combat being honorable: America would have lost the civil war with that style of combat. Vietnam kicked our asses by NOT using that style of combat. Afghanistan defeated Russia by NOT using that style of combat. By your definition of honorable combat, honor went out the door with the invention of the bow and arrow, the first invention of ranged combat. I see it as dishonorable to misuse resources like that. If it had been real, both battles would have seen steep casualties needlessly. King Phyrrus saw the cost of that type of "honorable" battle as well. _______________ Death is only the beginning. This comment was edited by Kalheka on Dec 28 2002 11:20am. |
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Chainer - Ex-Student 
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i think they wer descent |
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Vaughn - Student 
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ok, droids - obi and qui gonn smoked soo many droids, its not funny - they could handle the battle droids, they just didnt know about the "super droids". And, they didnt know how many droids there were. They had much more, but they didnt know that.
Gungans - distraction, and they had the shield, remember? till the shield got broken, thats how they were supposed to do it. what dont you buy? Thats how everyone faught wars in the olden days - ligned up and charged. Its only honerable, unlike smoking people from long distances thats the truth _______________ When you become an actor, you become the person, and you dont act anymore. You just are. - Tyler HP, Taught by Mr G Simpson |
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Kalheka - Student
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I don't buy that one Vaughn, sorry.
The thing is that the gungans massed far outside the city, the queen would have been in no danger since she was assaulting the Naboo Palace
And when the Jedi went to Geonosis, they knew that they were going to a center that manufactures droids, they should have known what they were running into. _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Vaughn - Student
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ok Kalheka, in the gungan battle, if they did smoke them from orbit, thed destroy the city also, killing the queen, and they needed her to sign the treaty - doing so not a good idea.
ATOC, the jedi came in like that to scare the people away - they didnt know that they had mad droid armys, so they all went in. Also, they knew (being Knights = Gentleman/Ladies) that fighting up in the air/space is dishonerable, so they wouldent (any way, have you played Jedi Starfighter? Ali Galia is up there saving them from the Hexalon). In the olden days, thed lign up and charge in, so thats what they did - Gladiator fighting is better than the hide and kill of now adays. What im saying is... If you were a bad guy/sith, you wouldent be in a movie, cuz thats too smart - they always do stupid things in the movies - Remember that - Vaughn the Hippocrit _______________ When you become an actor, you become the person, and you dont act anymore. You just are. - Tyler HP, Taught by Mr G Simpson |
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Kalheka - Student
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My complaints about EP 1 and 2 were exactly the fights. Not the lightsaber fights, but the warring. In both EP 1 and 2, the conflicts were run like gladiator combat, which is SOOOO not practical. Battles are first fought in the air, there should have been a fleet in orbit annihilating the droids from distance, instead of a gladiator conflict where the Jedi needlessly spent their lives. Yes, rescuing Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan was necessary, but that was a precision strike, they should have been evacuated immediately to the orbiting fleet, not taken to the front line of a conflict that never should have happened.
The Gungan battle of the Droid army was another mistake. I realize that they needed to draw the droid army away from the city, but when the Trade Federation saw the Gungan army massing outside of town, the control ship should have bombarded them from orbit. Leaving little itty bitty gungan pieces ground into the dust. That should have been handled differently. _______________ Death is only the beginning. This comment was edited by Kalheka on Dec 26 2002 04:26pm. |
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