| News From Fallujah, A hard day for Marines | |
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Plo Koon - Student  |
News from Fallujah,there is reality in this to be warned. In Falluja, Young Marines Saw the Savagery of an Urban War November 21, 2004 By DEXTER FILKINS FALLUJA, Iraq, Nov. 18 - Eight days after the Americans entered the city on foot, a pair of marines wound their way up the darkened innards of a minaret, shot through with holes by an American tank. As the marines inched their way along, a burst of gunfire rang down, fired by an insurgent hiding in the top of the tower. The bullets hit the first marine in the face, his blood spattering the marine behind him. Lance Cpl. William Miller, age 22, lay in silence half way up, mortally wounded. "Miller!" the marines called from below. "Miller!" With that, the marines' near mystical commandment against leaving a comrade behind seized the group. One after another, the young marines dashed into the minaret, into darkness and into gunfire, and wound their way up the stairs. After four attempts, Corporal Miller's lifeless body emerged from the tower, his comrades choking and covered with dust, dodging volleys of machine-gun fire as they carried him back to their base. "I was trying to be careful, but I was trying to get him out, you know what I'm saying?" Lance Cpl. Michael Gogin, 19, said afterward. So went eight days of combat for this Iraqi city, the most sustained period of street-to-street fighting that Americans have encountered since the Vietnam War. The proximity gave the fighting a hellish intensity, with soldiers often close enough to look their enemies in the eyes. For a correspondent who has covered a half dozen armed conflicts, including the war in Iraq since its opening in March 2003, the fighting seen while traveling with a frontline unit in Falluja was a qualitatively different experience, a leap into a different kind of battle. From the first rockets vaulting out of the city as the marines moved in, the noise and feel of the battle seemed altogether extraordinary; at other times, hardly real at all. This intimacy of combat, this plunge into urban warfare, was new to this generation of American soldiers, but it is a kind of fighting they will probably see again: a grinding struggle to root out guerrillas entrenched in a neighborhood, on streets marked in a language few American soldiers could comprehend. At the minaret, as more insurgents closed in to join the battle, the marines ran through volleys of machine gun fire back to their base. Hours later, American jets dropped three 500-pound bombs on the mosque, reducing the minaret to rubble. Marines returned the next day to make sure the guerrillas were dead. The price for the Americans so far: 51 dead and 425 wounded, a number that may yet increase but that already exceeds that from any battle in the Iraq war. Marines in Harm's Way The 150 marines with whom I traveled, Company B of the First Battalion, Eighth Marines, had it as tough as any unit in the fight. They moved through the city almost entirely on foot, into the heart of the resistance, rarely protected by tanks or troop carriers, working their way through Falluja's narrow streets with 75-pound packs on their backs. In eight days of fighting, Company B took 36 casualties, including 6 dead, meaning that one in four of the company was either wounded or killed in little more than a week. The sounds, sights and feel of the battle were as old as war itself, and as new as the Pentagon's latest weapons systems. The eerie pop from the cannon of the AC-130 gunship, prowling above the city, firing at guerrillas who were often only steps away from Americans on the ground. The weird buzz of the Dragon Eye pilotless airplane, hovering over the battlefield as its video cameras beamed real-time images back to the base. The glow of the insurgents' flares, throwing daylight over a landscape to help them spot their targets: us. The nervous shove of a marine scrambling for space along a brick wall as tracer rounds ricocheted above. The silence between the ping of the shell leaving its mortar tube and the explosion when it strikes. The screams of the marines when one of their comrades, Cpl. Jake Knospler, lost part of his jaw to a hand grenade. "No, no, no!" the marines shouted as they dragged Corporal Knospler from the darkened house where the bomb went off. It was 2 a.m., the sky dark without a moon. "No, no, no!" Nothing in the combat I saw even remotely resembled the scenes regularly flashed across movie screens, but often seemed no more real. Mortar shells and rocket-propelled grenades began raining down on Company B the moment its men began piling out of their troop carries just outside of Falluja. The shells looked like Fourth of July rockets, sailing over the ridge ahead as if fired by children, exploding in a whoosh of sparks. Whole buildings, minarets and human beings were vaporized in barrages of exploding shells. A man dressed in a white dishdasha crawled across a desolate field, reaching behind a gnarled plant to hide, when he collapsed before a burst of fire from an American tank. Sometimes the casualties came in volleys, like bursts of machine-gun fire. On the first morning of battle, during a ferocious struggle for the Muhammadia Mosque, about 45 marines with Company B's Third Platoon dashed across 40th Street, right into interlocking streams of fire. By the time the platoon made it to the other side, five men lay bleeding in the street. The marines rushed out to get them, as they would days later in the minaret, but it was too late for Sgt. Lonny D. Wells, who bled to death on the side of the road. One of the men who braved gunfire to pull in Sergeant Wells was Cpl. Nathan R. Anderson, who died three days later in an ambush. Sergeant Wells's death dealt the Third Platoon a heavy blow; as a leader of one of its squads, he had written letters to the parents of its younger members, assuring them he would look over them during the tour in Iraq. "He loved playing cards," Cpl. Gentian Marku recalled. "He knew all the probabilities." More than once, death crept up and snatched a member of Company B and quietly slipped away. Cpl. Nick Ziolkowski, nicknamed Ski, was a Company B sniper. For hours at a stretch, Corporal Ziolkowski would sit on a rooftop, looking through the scope on his bolt-action M-40 rifle, waiting for guerrillas to step into his sights. The scope was big and wide, and Corporal Ziolkowski often took off his helmet to get a better look. Tall, good-looking and gregarious, Corporal Ziolkowski was one of Company B's most popular soldiers. Unlike most snipers, who learned to shoot growing up in the countryside, Corporal Ziolkowski grew up near Baltimore, and was never familiar with guns until he joined the Marines. Though Baltimore boasts no beach front, Corporal Ziolkowski's passion was surfing; at Camp Lejeune, N.C., Company B's base, he often would organize his entire day around the tides. "All I need now is a beach with some waves," Corporal Ziolkowski said, during a break from his sniper duties at Falluja's Grand Mosque, where he killed three men in a single day. During that same break, Corporal Ziolkowski foretold his own death. The snipers, he said, were now among the most hunted of American soldiers. During the first battle for Falluja, in April, Corporal Ziolkowski said, American snipers had been especially lethal, and intelligence officers had warned him that this time, the snipers would be targets. "They are trying to take us out," Corporal Ziolkowski said. The bullet knocked Corporal Ziolkowski backward and onto his back. He had been sitting on a rooftop on the outskirts of the Shuhada neighborhood, an area controlled by insurgents, peering through his wide scope. He had taken his helmet off to get a better view. The bullet hit him in the head. Young Men, Heavy Burdens For all the death about the place, one inescapable impression left by the marines was their youth. Everyone knows that soldiers are young; it is another thing to see men barely out of adolescence, many of whom were still in high school when this war began, shoot people dead. The marines of Company B often fought over the packets of M&M's that came with their rations. Sitting in their barracks, they sang along with the Garth Brooks paean to chewing tobacco, "Copenhagen," named for the brand they bought almost to a man: Copenhagen, what a wad of flavor Copenhagen, you can see it in my smile Copenhagen, hey do yourself a favor, dip Copenhagen, it drives the cowgirls wild One of Company B's more youthful members was Cpl. Romulo Jimenez II, age 21 from Bellington, W.Va., who spent much of his time showing off his tattoos - he had flames climbing up one of his arms - and talking about his 1992 Ford Mustang. Corporal Jimenez was a popular member of Company B's Second Platoon, not least because he introduced his sister to a fellow marine, Lance Cpl. Sean Evans, and the couple married. In the days before the battle started, Corporal Jimenez called his sister, Katherine, to ask that she fix up the interior of his Mustang before he got home. "Make it look real nice," he told her. On Wednesday, Nov. 10, at around 2 p.m., Corporal Jimenez was shot in the neck by a sniper as he advanced with his platoon through the northern end of Falluja, just near the green-domed Muhammadia Mosque. He died instantly. Despite their youth, the marines seemed to tower over their peers outside the military in maturity and guts. Many of Company B's best marines, its most proficient killers, were 19 and 20 years old; some directed their comrades in maneuvers and assaults. Company B's three lieutenants, each responsible for the lives of about 50 men, were 23 and 24 years old. They are a strangely anonymous bunch. The men who fight America's wars seem invariably to come from little towns and medium-size cities far away from the nation's arteries along the coast. Line up a group of marines and ask them where they are from, and you will get a list of places you have never heard of: Pearland, Tex.; Lodi, Ohio; Osawatomie, Kan. Typical of the marines who survived Falluja was Chad Ritchie, a 22-year-old corporal from Keezletown, Va. Corporal Ritchie, a soft-spoken, bespectacled intelligence officer, said he was happy to be out of the tiny place where he grew up, though he admitted that he sometimes missed the good times on Friday nights in the fields. "We'd have a bonfire, and back the trucks up on it, and open up the backs, and someone would always have some speakers," Corporal Ritchie said. "We'd drink beer, tell stories." Like many of the young men in Company B, Corporal Ritchie said he joined the Marines because he yearned for an adventure greater than his small town could offer. "The guys who stayed, they're all living with their parents, making $7 an hour," Corporal Ritchie said. "I'm not going to be one of those people who gets old and says, 'I wish I had done this. I wish I had done that.' Every once in a while, you've got to do something hard, do something you're not comfortable with. A person needs a gut check." Holding Up Under Fire Marines like Corporal Ritchie proved themselves time and again in Falluja, not without fear. While camped out one night in the Iraqi National Guard building in the middle of city, Company B came under mortar fire that grew closer with each shot. The insurgents were "bracketing" the building, firing shots to the left and right of the target and adjusting their fire each time. In the hallways, where the men had camped for the night, the murmured sounds of prayers rose between the explosions. After 20 tries, the shelling inexplicably stopped. On one particularly grim night, a group of marines from Company B's First Platoon turned a corner in the darkness and headed up an alley. As they did so, they came across men dressed in uniforms worn by the Iraqi National Guard. The uniforms were so exact that they even carried pieces of red tape and white, the agreed upon signal to assure American soldiers that any Iraqis dressed that way would be friendly; the others could be killed. The marines, spotting the red and white tape, waved, and the men in Iraqi uniforms opened fire. One American, Corporal Anderson, died instantly. One of the wounded men, Pfc. Andrew Russell, lay in the road, screaming from a nearly severed leg. A group of marines ran forward into the gunfire to pull their comrades out. But the ambush, presumably by insurgents, and the enemy flares and gunfire that followed, rattled Company B more than any other event all week. In the darkness, the men began to argue. Others stood around in the road. As the platoon's leader, lieutenant Andy Eckert, struggled to take charge, the Third Platoon seemed on the brink of panic. "Everybody was scared," Lieutenant Eckert said afterward. "If the leader can't hold, then the unit can't hold together." The unit did hold, but only after the intervention of Company B's commanding officer, Capt. Read Omohundro. Time and again through the week, Captain Omohundro kept his men from folding, if not by his resolute manner then by his calmness under fire. In the first 16 hours of battle, when the combat was continuous and the threat of death ever present, Captain Omohundro never flinched, moving his men through the warrens and back alleys of Falluja with an uncanny sense of space and time, sensing the enemy, sensing the location of his men, even in the darkness, entirely self-possessed. "Damn it, get moving," Captain Omohundro said, and his men, looking relieved that they had been given direction amid the anarchy, were only too happy to oblige. A little later, Captain Omohundro, a 34-year-old Texan, allowed that the strain of the battle had weighed on him, but he said that he had long ago trained himself to keep any self-doubt hidden from view. "It's not like I don't feel it," Captain Omohundro said. "But if I were to show it, the whole thing would come apart." When the heavy fighting was finally over, a dog began to follow Company B through Falluja's broken streets. First it lay down in the road outside one of the buildings that Company B had occupied, between troop carriers. Then, as the troops moved on, the mangy dog slinked behind them, first on a series of house searches, then on a foot patrol, always keeping its distance, but never letting the marines out of its sight. Company B, looking a bit ragged itself as it moved up through Falluja, momentarily fell out of its single-file line. "Keep a sharp eye," Captain Omohundro told his men. "We ain't done with this war yet." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/international/middleeast/21battle.html?ex=1101982213&ei=1&en=a2340a5477ac472a May the force be with the Young Marines and Soldiers in the middle east  ._______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This post was edited by Plo Koon on Nov 21 2004 04:07am. |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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No, you're right, but why would they when they have had nuclear capability for several decades. It has more nukes than the UK, with the 4th largest stockpile in the world. WMD's is another issue though, on which I have learnt to give up trying to convince people that 'oopsy I didnt know everyone under me is incompetent, it wont happen again I promise' isnt a good enough excuse for killing over 100,000 civilians. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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Quote: That was the point I was trying to make, why, taking into account the same humanitarian reasons you have given can be applied to other countries, only invade Iraq? Because China is in my opinion not a direct threat. They are not the ones shopping around on the Black Market for WMD's. (probably over-dramatisation, but you get the point  ) _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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@ Buzz: I know its not just the US who can be prey to this criticism, but it is the US you were trying to defend. It can also be applied to a certain extent to my own country (the UK). @Duffles and Bail: Thats not the point I'm making at all, maybe I made it badly. What I'm saying is that you're justification for the war in Iraq is based on humanitarian motives, correct? However you cannot be morally justified in going to war with one country (Iraq), for humanitarian reasons whilst ignoring and even trading with others, who oppress and kill their own people just like Saddam did. The reason is purely financial, Iraq wasn't making money for the US, it gets invaded (and now it can). Saudi Arabia does make money for the US, therefore its humanitarian record gets ignored, as does China's. If Bush and Cheney only cared about liberating the Iraqi people for humanitarian reasons, then the logical thing to expect is to ask why only Iraq? Why not anywhere else? Seems to me that the answer is that there are other reasons, not quite as fluffy and consumer-friendly, behind it that the Bush regime is keeping close to their chests. Maybe I'm wrong but thats what it looks like. That was the point I was trying to make, why, taking into account the same humanitarian reasons you have given can be applied to other countries, only invade Iraq? _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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Quote: you want us to go to war with the entire middle east, north korea, and china (just to name a few) at the same time? riiiiiiiiiiiiiight /agrees completely _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Duffman - Student 
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you want us to go to war with the entire middle east, north korea, and china (just to name a few) at the same time? riiiiiiiiiiiiiight _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone |
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Buzz - Student 
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Quote: The day I see the US treat every single country with a tyrranical dictator in the same way I will agree with its actions. However whilst its foreign policy is picking and choosing; trading with some, exploiting others for money, and going to war with a select few (who have stopped making the US money, naughty naughty people) then I'll continue to believe that it is taking an immoral and hypocritical stance. As opposed to evey other countries immoral and hypocritical stance right? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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The day I see the US treat every single country with a tyrranical dictator in the same way I will agree with its actions. However whilst its foreign policy is picking and choosing; trading with some, exploiting others for money, and going to war with a select few (who have stopped making the US money, naughty naughty people) then I'll continue to believe that it is taking an immoral and hypocritical stance. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Yeah, I see this thread as a "poor, victimized Marines, sent on a fool's errand to die" message. The truth is that our boys are kicking ass over there. Yes, war is hell. Yes, some of them get hurt. Yes, some of them die. But if you want to honor them, there are plenty of stories about the good that they actually do. This thread is just more negativism, more "we shouldn't be there" nonsense. We should be there. We should have been there ten years ago--we made a terrible, terrible mistake by not finishing the job the first time, and approximately a million (approximately--they're still discovering mass graves and may never know the real figure) innocent Iraqis were murdered by Saddam in the interim because we lacked the moral courage to oust him when we could have. I am deeply sorry for that, but while we cannot bring back the dead, we can rebuild a country and protect its fledgling democracy from the forces of evil--yes, Evil--that would destroy it and bring back tyranny. How come the mainstream media isn't as obsessed with stories of people who were tortured and murdered under Saddam? Such stories are certainly more numerous. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Buzz - Student 
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I don't know Plo, I don't see your choice of title "hard day for marines" as a way for honoring the marines fighting over there. There are better stories and better titles to use. How about the soldiers who helped make sure an Iraqi man got medical help for his sick child. Or how about debunking the claims of war crimes for shooting an "injured" enemy for no reason? Kind of like justification for that type of action like this Find a positive way to honor them instead of using things with a negative spin. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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I posted this to Honor what the troops are doing and to recognise their hardships. I have a close friend who went in with the 1st marines division on invasion day and he stayed over there for a year and more. Now this post was posted so we could honor them and respect them even more for what they had to do. Just because I posted this doesn't mean i dont recognize the beutiful things to, that are going on over there. Like i said,may the force be with them,they are brave. _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Nov 23 2004 09:14pm. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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but I do agree though. We can't leave. Not now. All we would do is leave a country in shatters, not to mention that the Taliban, Al Quaida, Al Zarkabi, you name it, will all rise again and simply take everything back for their own. Then we could expect an attack of even larger proportions. I hope we will see this through to the end, no matter what happens next _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Quote: no one ever said that Javaguy,why do you keep saying abandon? of course we cant leave The Democrats just ran a presidential campaign on the premise that we should withdraw and pray that the U.N. (LOL) would step in and take care of the situation. Their primary spokesman was Michael Moore, who certainly thinks we should withdraw all our troops. I don't know what you personally think, but the overwhelming majority of the anti-war crowd thinks we should simply withdraw our troops. It is simply a lie that "no one ever said that," an outright lie. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Duffman - Student
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no, but all you are doing is pointing out things that only serve to excilate tentions. If you don't think that we should leave iraq, what is it that you hope to gain from posting things like this? That by posting something like this it will somehow miraculously make everyone change thier mind about this? That by posting this, someone in charge will see it and order something that will drasticly change the way the war is run? That you will find some messure of acceptance from your peers that see this kind of baised crap every day? "To let us know what is really going on" Riiiight, and you this is the entire story how? Have you been there? Have you seen this with your own eyes? I think not. Kindly base your opinion on more then one set of presented facts. Stop basing your opinon on the extreme liberal media we have. I dont care if you are liberal in mindset or not. Basing your opinion off of one point of veiw without considering the others is not only stupid, but its lazy thinking. If i am mistaken in this assumption, forgive me. But the things you have said of late tend to point me in that direction. _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone |
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Plo Koon - Student
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no one ever said that Javaguy,why do you keep saying abandon? of course we cant leave _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Nov 23 2004 06:28pm. |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Hey, here's some more news from Fallujah: Many Iraqi civilians left blankets and provisions for the Marines, along with notes thanking the Marines for liberating them from Saddam. How can anybody think of abandoning the Iraqis at this hour? _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Duffman - Student 
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Quote: Duffman, If you believe this thread was made for whining you are way off. I posted it to let people know whats going on in Fallujah and how things are. It seems to me you dont want to accept the reality of it so you just brush it off and call it "whining". I believe I said that you shouldn't assume that I don't know whats going on. I am not that uninformed. Nor am i a warmongering redneck idiot. I hate all these mass-emails with this stuff that i get filling my inboxes everyday. I hate the overly liberal media that every western nation has. I hate the overly anti-american probaganda that everyone is spouting. And when all I can see you doing is promoting the dark side of war, I see you whining because bad things are happening. If you feel it is your place to "let people know what is REALY going on" go get a pad and pencil and go over to iraq. Take notes. Find out what you want to know, and nothing more, dont get the whole story like everyone esle does. Publish your work. Join the liberaly biased media that is poluting the world with nothing but the ugly side of what is happening that sells to the masses. Dont tell the world about the good things that are happening. Just ignore all the good things that the american military is doing. Ugly, cold, hard truth from a one sided prospective sells newspapers and keeps people interested. It grabs the human heart and makes any good and decent person want to stop the "atrocities". But the people that stop there and dont look at the whole picture are only prepetuating the cicle of mass idiocy. Human beings by themselves can be smart, and make informed decisions. Human beings in large groups are sheep. Following the large crowd, doing what the bright glowing box tells them, doing what the one that shouts the loudest tells them and believeing what he/she tells them to believe. Why do you think mass-advratisement works? I dont say that to be insulting, ask any psychiatrist (spelling i know, but its late and im tired). Have a wonderfull day. _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone This comment was edited by Duffman on Nov 23 2004 09:55am. |
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Buzz - Student
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Yeah I'll agree with Java on the recruiting idea. Typically the terrorists like to use one or two to cause massive damage killing as many infidels and baby-eating jews as they can. It doesn't seem as good of a recruiting incentive now that we're actually taking the fight to them despite what others say. "come fight for us, 50 of you will die before we kill another infidel." _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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JavaGuy - Student
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The media love to report news from the small part of Iraq that is not yet under control. But read the blogs written by the soldiers who are actually over there, and you'll hear stories of millions of Iraqis grateful to be free. The news will report endlessly about bombings but never once mention the historic city council meetings going on. Most of the media just hate America. The appeasement crowd seems to think that when a country is occupied the war magically ends instantly, and if fighting continues then the war was a complete failure. To hear them talk about Iraq we would have to conclude that America lost World War II because our forces in Germany were still taking casualties as late as 1949. But then, the appeasers aren't exactly up on his history--if they were they'd understand the problem with appeasement. War is messy. Appeasement is messier. The extremists will not go away if we simply stop fighting. They hate us because of our culture, because we love individual liberty, because our women drive cars, hold jobs and wear pants. They hate me because I like to pop open a Budweiser and listen to some rock and roll. They honestly believe that God wants them to kill all such people and will grant them a place in heaven if they do. That's what they do: They hate, they hate, they hate. This will not stop just because we try to appease them. The only thing appeasement will do is show them that terrorism works and is a good thing to do in the future. Churchill said it best: An appeaser is one who feeds an alligator, hoping it will eat him last. Most Iraqis are grateful to be free. Most Iraqis hate the extremists, who are simply a minority of idiots taking advantage of a bad situation. Right here in America, if there were a war, you'd probably see the street gangs running amok in similar fashion, but that wouldn't mean that they enjoy popular support. Nor do our troops consider the insurgents a serious military threat. Yes, it's tragic when someone dies, but we're killing something like 55 terrorists for every one U.S. solder who dies. That can't be encouraging to the bad guys, and it isn't exactly good for terrorist recruitment. We are fighting the good fight and cannot abandon it. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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I already knew the stories, boobie-trapped bodies, terrorists acting dead, then rising and shooting someone in the back and so on. I've heard countless. I still consider this to be anti-war propaganda. If I was a Marine in the same case, I would shoot first and ask questions later... I hate getting blown to bits while I have my back turned _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Buzz - Student
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Here's a bit of reality: the media tends to spin reports and everything into a negative light for the US soldiers. This may be the worst urban fighting since Vietnam but that's misleading. The ratio of US soldiers killed to insurgents killed is no where near the average for US soldiers to Vietnamese fighters. I believe the numbers lost in Vietnam for the time we were there was over 50,000 US servicemen killed. I doubt we'll get to that point here, and I should hope the sentiment of our soldiers returning will remain positive unlike the Vietnam Vets. For a negative spin all you need to do is look at the recent shooting of the insurgent by a marine. The writer used something along the lines of "US soldier shoots injured insurgent" Nevermind the fact that these soldiers had seen a dead body booby trapped with a grenade before. After seeing something like that would you ever leave a room with someone willing to fight you to their very last breath and beyond? I think this is a good idea. http://www.dailypundit.com/archives/016038.php Quote: I think ALL reporters (especially ones with camera and tape recorders) should be required to check out ALL dead or wounded terrorists. The Marines should just motion for the embedded to come over and check them out first before the Marine does. That way the journalist can get first hand account of what a booby trapped terrorist really is and exactly what the Marines are up against day and night. Let the reporters sacrifice their lives for their newspapers, instead of their country……and save the lives of our marines at the same time . See how willing they are to face a still breathing enemy. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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Duffman, If you believe this thread was made for whining you are way off. I posted it to let people know whats going on in Fallujah and how things are. It seems to me you dont want to accept the reality of it so you just brush it off and call it "whining". _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
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Duffman - Student
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.................. I am only going to make one post in this thread..........if i can help it. The telling of war stories only continues the endless debates by everyone that have a feeling either way on the subject. There are 2 things that need to be said- Anything that we say or do here will not change what is happening, so please......don't lose your temper over anything said here. It will only continue the cycle of irritation that I, for one, am sick of. Second, homeland security..... There are places that are not connected to the mainlands of our respective contries, and we cant protect them from home. And we have ppl all over the globe, we cant protect them from home. Should we pull everyone out and deal only with stuff in our own countries? Sorry, last time we tried that, Hitler almost took over the world. If people arn't pro-active in the things outside thier own country, things tend to get bad veeeery fast. And if you don't like how a certain country is doing something, you have several choices -Let the country know, or have your country tell that country, that things arnt right -Deal with it and concern yourself with your own life -Whine about it everywere and acomplish nothing. Please, for those of us that truely understand the situation, stop whining. Whining here in a public place acomplishes nothing. Don't make the assumption that we don't know the cost, that we dont understand what is going on. All you see is the bad things that happen, and refuse to accept the fact that bad things happen, even when we try to do good. Please stop crying our to the world "This stinks, it shouldn't happen". We know it shouldnt, but there are those that see it as, or accept the fact, that it is necessary. The world isn't perfect. Deal with it, or not, just stop whining. _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
At the same time as realising terrorists are a threat, you should not overestimate that threat, though. Terrorism doesn't happen every day (possibly except in Israel and Palestine, but that doesn't quite go into the 'war on terror'). EDIT: PS, Copenhagen sucks. ^^ This comment was edited by Jacen Aratan on Nov 21 2004 03:19pm. |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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The war on terrorism will not end. Not in victory anyway. It isn't a war the west can win, not by violence of any form; violence only begets more violence. We are just encouraging more muslims to join the cause of terrorism by our foolhardy actions. War is not the answer, homeland security is the only way to prevent terrorism. This war is just going to create more anti-western sentiment, which is the cause of the terrorism in the first place. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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it's sad to hear those tales, and maybe they are best left unread All they will do is give you the feeling that this war wasn't necessary, while in my opinion, it was. The war on terrorism must go on, no matter what the price in human blood. If we are ever able to end terrorist activies, think of how the Middle-East will advance on every subject. The probability for war will probably diminish heavily as soon as we can put a serious halt to terrorist activities. I'm not saying we'll get them all. I know we won't. I know there will always be fundamentalists, but think about it. Look at what happened in Afghanistan. I don't doubt that Americans lost their lives fighting for the Afghanian people's freedom, and take a look at what a positive effect a free Afghanistan has ... They recently aired a show about Afghanistan, before being freed of the Taliban, and after being freed. The difference was immense. The woman is now a respected individual there, which we all have to agree is great, and a primeur for the Middle-East too, I might add. We may be paying a high price in human lives at Falluja, and we may yet pay a lot more. But that's because, like Buzz and Javaguy stated, because the other countries are afraid of the democracy, and the free speech, the newspapers no long being under control of the government and so on and so forth. I've read somewhere (can't remember where, but will search again) that the newspapers under control of the goverment are prone to be very incorrect and filled with lies against other peoples, like Jews, Americans, etc... In a democracy you're free to publish whatever you want in a newspaper (you can get sued for it, but you get my point). The goverment can't publish lies anymore if that power is given to the people, to publish. Personally, I think we'll have to view the War on Terrorism mwhen we are a few years later. You'll see that many things will have improved in the Middle-East, of this I'm sure. It can only work for the best, no matter how much blood we pay for it. If we have to invade countries because they support terrorism, or because they allow terrorists being trained in their countries, then so be it. This is probably very easy to say for me, since I don't have the physique nor appearance of a soldier myself, so I will probably never see war like they do. But I feel that what we are doing is right. And I dare you to find soldiers who have seen terrorists at gunpoint using women and children as shields, to call the war wrong. Every terrorist that gets apprehended is a Terrorist less on the streets, no matter how many there are, this will have a positive effect in the end. _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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