| Factual accuracy of the Bible | |
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JavaGuy - Student  |
Here's what I do not want to see in this thread: -Disrespect of any kind -Bitterness -Non-believers impugning believers' motives for believing -Believers impugning non-believers' motives for their non-belief -Links to pictures of Janet Reno naked Got it? If you feel yourself becoming really emotional, veins popping out on your forehead, go away and come back when you're calm. Okay, here's what this thread is: A discussion of questions regarding the historical, factual authenticity of the events related in the Bible. Be specific, please, and use fact and reason. This is the thread in which to debate the authenticity of the Bible. Okay? And you will do so respectfully--that is an order. I'll start the ball rolling. How did Judas die? Mt. 27:5 "And he [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." ...or... Acts 1:18 " Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." Of the second description, ick! So why the discrepancy? Is one account wrong and the other right? Are both versions true but somewhat muddled versions of what really happened? If some of the particulars of the events got somewhat muddled when the story was written down, do you still think the overarching story is essentially what really happened? Is the Bible the "Word of God" in the sense that He inspired its words, but perhaps imperfect humans mucked it up a little when they wrote it down? Or is it the Word of God in the sense that some people claim, that God makes sure that the text handed down through the generations is the real McCoy, inerrant to the letter? Now note that I do not present this contradictiion (as I see it) as an attack on Christians (I am a Christian myself). And you will not do so either. I present it to raise questions like those above. If you're a believer, how do you cope with questions like this? Note also: Just because I started with the Judas question, that doesn't mean that this is the "show us your Bible contradictions" thread--you can Google those to your heart's content. Contradictions are legitimate questions, but there are also other questions about historical accuracy as well as scientific and philosophical questions. This is to be a thread about facts. How factually accurate is the Bible. It is also a thread about ideas. This can be an emotional subject, and it's okay to feel strongly about something, but I insist on respect, respect, respect. Got it? Stick to the substance of the discussion. Again, if you find yourself becoming overly emotional, go away--read the Crazy Stuff forum, watch the Bananaphone animation again, anything but this thread. And if you can't discuss the matter rationally, then this thread is not for you. [edit: fixed tags] _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. This post was edited by JavaGuy on Jan 13 2005 02:58am. |
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Nero - Student 
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I have to agree with Jedi Obi. The first testament was written in hebrew at the beginning, this was then translated into Latin. Most modern Bibles are translations of the Latin bible. There are several examples of flaws coming through this, for example: When the Hebrewian version was translated into the Latin the word 'qaran' was wrongly translated. The word is used several times in Exodus 34 (line 29 till 35). Quote: And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. Here qaran is translated with 'while his face was shining' which is correct. Qaran has another translation though meaning 'displaying horns'. So hence why you see a lot of statues with moses baring horns... Example I think this is one of the many factors which make the Bible a book that shouldn't be taken too literally. I think that it clearly displays necessary values, but going into detail on certian subjects wouldn't be too much of a good idea. Just my opinion though  -------------------------------------------------- About Judas' death, I have no clue. Maybe it wasn't known how he died and two people made up two different stories. That's what happens when you have a book that's 2000 years old I quess... Ofcourse there are certain parts which are basicly 'Nostradamus' like... it can be explained in so many ways it nearly has to be correct in one way. _______________ -Nero Quote: Curious, Smartass, what else? This comment was edited by Nero on Jul 08 2005 01:04pm. |
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Jeramia Adept - Student 
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i believe that anything the bible says is true, now when you see such things as slight differences be thoughtful. i believe that looking at both of those quotes, each is true. When one hangs themselves and is never found usually you will bloat up and its possible your bowls will fall out. Its possible, but the most truth ive ever read was about Jesus, and everything that Jesus said. _______________ The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is. Padawan Brother to Darth Sirius |
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Ecks - Student 
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There was a great flood in Mesopotamia - not nearly on the scale of the Great Flood, but many believe that to be the flood in the story. As for floods being present in all cultures, I guess it could be because water is a universal symbol of cleansing. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
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bono_bob - Student |
I would like to comment that in almost every single ancient culture that still exists today ( like chinese and all that ) they all have some recordance of a great flood... which I find interesting, knowing the noah story well. _______________ "Darkness is simply the absence of Light" "Is it not easier to snuff out the light completely than to make no shadow or darknes at all and create pure light?" "Is there a limit to Light?" - Jawa Jedi from a galaxy far far way of the one Lucas describes ( not in that galaxy ) |
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bono_bob - Student |
Quote: A simple solution could be "translation" "Most" bibles (atleast in the U.S.) are "The King James" bible. Most people I know, who have studied the subject at all consider this one of the worst translations ever. Also I have to pre-apologize for this. I know we are not supposed to post nake pictures of Janet Reno but I just can't resist! http://www.mayonessa.com/randomcrap/confirmation.html which is funny because alto fo fanatics belive the king james version should be the onyl one read  _______________ "Darkness is simply the absence of Light" "Is it not easier to snuff out the light completely than to make no shadow or darknes at all and create pure light?" "Is there a limit to Light?" - Jawa Jedi from a galaxy far far way of the one Lucas describes ( not in that galaxy ) |
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Ecks - Student 
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If I got into a fistfight with somebody and had two entirely different people describe the fight detail for detail, you would have conflicting stories. That's how I see the discrepancies in the Bible. Different people wrote the books, so they saw it differently. Maybe Judas was hanged, but maybe the vultures picked out his body afterward, explaining the bowels. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." This comment was edited by Ecks on Jul 06 2005 10:43pm. |
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(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student 
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A simple solution could be "translation" "Most" bibles (atleast in the U.S.) are "The King James" bible. Most people I know, who have studied the subject at all consider this one of the worst translations ever. Also I have to pre-apologize for this. I know we are not supposed to post nake pictures of Janet Reno but I just can't resist! http://www.mayonessa.com/randomcrap/confirmation.html _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) |
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Kaz - Student 
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Quote: I have a question for those of you out there. I read this on a site, and would love your opinion about it : Quote: MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. Also, about the Red Sea, or the Reed Sea. We of course, cannot tell what actually happened, since it's so long back, and there were no videos or anything of the like that can actually prove what happened. Ok, firstly, "Neither the Hebrew nor the Aramaic language has words for “grandfather” or “grandson”; “son of” can mean “grandson of” or even “descendant of"" Matthew 1:1 "The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham". Jesus was obviously not the direct son of David, nor was David the direct son of Abraham. However, this shows the line through which Jesus came through. This following quote is a little confusing (u might need to read it a few times to understand  )"“In constructing their genealogical tables, it is well known that the Jews reckoned wholly by males, rejecting, where the blood of the grandfather passed to the grandson through a daughter, the name of the daughter herself, and counting that daughter’s husband for the son of the maternal grandfather.” It is undoubtedly for this reason the historian Luke says that Joseph was the “son of Heli.”" Obviously this would seem quite unfair today, but in these days, the men were viewed as the head of the family (far more so than today). |
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Kaz - Student 
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did a quick bit of research- on this whole 'how did judas die thing' and this is what i found. This is merely a copy and paste job- “Matthew seems to deal with the mode of the attempted suicide, while Acts describes the result. Combining the two accounts, it appears that Judas tried to hang himself over some cliff, but the rope or tree limb broke so that he plunged down and burst open on the rocks below. The topography around Jerusalem makes such an event conceivable." what ever the case, in my opinion, the bible is God's word, it was of course written by humans but 'inspired of God' (2 Tim 3:16) and as we are told from numerous scriptures within the bible, God cannot lie. Granted, some may argue that as it was written by humans it is hardly a book of God, but as the analogy we have heard so many times puts it, when a business man asks his secretary to write a letter for him, even though the secretary writes it, it is still from the business man and contains what he wants in it. The bible is the same, and being inspired of God, there is no error in it. Lovingly, God allowed humans to write the bible, so that we can relate to it. Think abouyt it, if the bible were to be written by Angels or come directly from God, would we really be able to understand it? God's wisdom far exceeds are own- would we be able to comprehend what was being said if the Almighty or even his angels wrote things down from there perfect stand point? |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Let's pick up the context of the original question at hand. In Matt. 27:3-10 we read: 3) Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4) saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." And they said, "What is that to us? You see to it!" 5) Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. 6) But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said, "It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the price of blood." 7) And they consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8) Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9) Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, 10) "and gave them for the potter's field, as the LORD directed me." Now the ladder verses here are quite confusing to me because referance to these can be found in Zech. 11:12. Again, I've never fully read through Jeremiah and I am ignorant to a great many teachings of that book. Next in Acts 1:18 & 19 we read: 18) (Now this man purchased a field with the [wages of iniquity] {reward of unrighteousness}; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19) And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Da'ma, that is, Field of Blood.) We learn more about the wages of iniquity or reward of unrighteousness in the Book of Romans. In Romans 6:23 we read: 23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now the death that is in view in this verse in the second death or eternal damnation, but how does this relate to buying a field? It is most likely that this is more of a factual teaching then a spiritual although I may be completely ignorant to this as well. Judas most likely hung himself in this field. The chief priests and elders probably took this "Blood money" and purchased that field. It is most possible that when Judas fell from the tree or whatever it was he hung himself from, that he fell headlong and burst open as discribed in the book of Acts. Someone falling over wouldn't have that effect but a high distance would probably do this quite well being somewhat decayed or eaten by birds. Poor Judas who was chosen to make the suffering of our Lord possible for His people. I hope and pray that many of us haven't already sold out the Lord for many of the things in this world too. Peace be with us all. May God add His blessing to the reading of His Word. Amen. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down. 
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Quote: MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. I'm not sure what the question is between these two scriptures, but I'll try to take a stab at what I think your asking. In the first scripture, if read very fast it almost looks as if it says, "Jacob had a son Joseph, who married Mary, and together had a son Jesus who is called Christ." Now this is how I read it which is how it is pretty much written. Jacob had Joseph as a son who was the husband of Mary, {Mary} of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Oh, wait a minute. Is this about the genealogy of Joseph, Jesus Christ's {supposed} father? I see the differance there and this is all I can offer without actually studying into it. One list consists of "begot's" while the other says "son". I think this may be key into this subject as Matt. 1:1 says the genealogy of Jesus Christ which would lead to Mary. Jacob probably begot Joseph as a son {in law} when he married Mary. I will have to study into this to see if I can't draw a clearer picture, but I hope it helps. Luke probably details the genealogy of Joseph back to Adam the first man. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Ecks - Student
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The Bible as well, is almost frustratingly abstract (barring Lamentations and Psalms). They elaborate nothing, and almost skip what is important. Not to mention that the entire storyline is only 5000 years or so, an absurd time for the Earth to be created. In fact, so many things are abstract, that some places, you wonder if it is even remotely true. The truth is, the Jews who wrote the books didn't really care about the details (as far as HRE 101 tells me). They just got the facts. Yet, their style of writing is so... damn simple and plain, it almost doesn't suit the message. It's like telling it's the end of the world, but you only say, "We have two days to live." I think that's what makes some parts so hard to believe, in my opinion. So, in the end, we cannot know what really happened. Personally, I think the Bible is accurate, but the message of Jesus and that, I am still in the dark about. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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I have a question for those of you out there. I read this on a site, and would love your opinion about it : Quote: MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. Also, about the Red Sea, or the Reed Sea. We of course, cannot tell what actually happened, since it's so long back, and there were no videos or anything of the like that can actually prove what happened. Personally, I do not fully believe what the Bible says on teh subject, even though some Chrstians are adamant about what happened, and the Bible is correct and all. Personally, I have no proof of what actually happened, and I can't say right from wrong in this case, but it would seem to me that the explanation, given at this site, could be correct, in my opinion. I'm not saying it is, but it could be. They still do not refute the fact that Moses existed, and that he actually led his people away from Egypt, thus a part of the story is probably still true. _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Khâ D'Kana - Student 
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Personnally I think most of the new testament is built with facts. But some parts of it have probably been modified by Constantinus when he decided for political reasons to make Christianity the official believing. Anyway I'm sure Jesus message is still in those text. The rites are maybe under pagan rites influence but the sense of the message has been preserved. For the old part of the bible (maybe old testimony in english, I'm not sure), I always perceived it like images. But with time and research some scientists discovered many things that are confirming the bible. For example they're currently thinking all humans have the same women as ancestor (genetic tests made on several of the oldest femal human discovered). Same for the downpour, around the period mentionned in the bible (Noé's story) a big flood covered Syria, Israel and some other part of Araby. When we add the link Jacen gave about Mose... Personnaly I'm still seeing those things more like images. But it's possible that they all are facts. Anyway I think when you're believing in something you will feel in your earth if it's a good thing or not. So even if texts have been modified. As long as they ask me to give the best of myself I will continue to read them and TRY to leave them  -Khâ D'Kana _______________ In light of day, nor dark of night, no evil shall escape our sight. Proud member of the D'Kana family |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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That's exactly the kind of thing I intend this thread for. I went to a Catholic High School, and the nun who taught my religion class was on board with the Sea of Reeds theory. Supposedly--and I'm not knowledgeable about this and so cannot vouch for it, but supposedly--it still exists today and still "parts" from time to time. I had never heard of the tsunami hypothesis--I had just kind of assumed that the "canyon of water" was maybe a bit of exageration, literary license if you will, on the part of the authors to emphasize what must truly have been a spectacular event. But maybe it happened exactly like that. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
I don't know if this is a 100% correct question for the thread, but since I didn't get a lot of response from the other thread about the link (long live e-soaps), I'll post it again, asking for Christians' opinions: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/moses/evidence/redsea.shtml |
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Darth Jason - Student 
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In a honest effort to not offend I have done much research on the topic of the christian bible( not to include thr Tora) and I have found MANY similarities to the religions of the region. Some that might blow your mind. A couple of semesters ago I wrote a paper on the pagan origins of Christian Mythology. I have always been a Christian but I have also been interested in the influence of other beliefs on the religion(s) of the time on Christian beliefs. Quite an interesting history. If anyone wants an overview shoot me an email. jason.rohde@gmail.com, ill send you a copy then you can research and we can talk, argue, or just compare notes _______________ I have seen EP3 now I can die happy and complete. Happy Star Wars Completion day everyone!!!! |
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