| Truth hurts, doesn't it? (WARNING, politics may be a sensitive subject) | |
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Esta - Student  |
I'd like to share a few of the articles I've been reading this morning, catching up with the news they don't want you to hear. Combined, this selection of articles paints a pretty terrible picture of what's going on. Joshua Key's story "We were ordered to take aim at everyone" "A father and his little boy who were machine gunned, in two seconds, because they didn't understand the meaning of the word "Stop!"" http://www.bushgreenwatch.org/mt_archives/000287.php According to the report, the energy bill allocates at least $4 billion in subsidies and tax breaks for the oil industry. More taxes wasted while people aren't paying attention. Economic invasion Lowering Expectations I'd like to add that there are many more articles, which I'd rather not post, as they may be a little too shocking. ...it's a sad world we live in. _______________ -Kauyon Draconis [Official master of Ataris] This post was edited by Esta on Aug 18 2005 10:52pm. |
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
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I didn't say I didn't agree with the need to invade Iraq. Citizens living better lives is fine with me. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have pulled out a year ago though. _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
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Esta - Student 
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DJ Sith.. you have good reason to be angry that progress is slow, and it doesn't seem to affect us, but trust me when I say it does. The war may not have gone perfectly, but a lot of people are living better lives now. It's making a difference, slowly. ...Dispite this, I don't trust certain politicians one bit. Greed and corruption are the cause of this war, and in the eyes of certain politicians, the solution also. _______________ -Kauyon Draconis [Official master of Ataris] |
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council
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I could care less about WMD's. Saddam was an ass who needed to be shot. We should have just rolled over the country like a steamroller then left. We didn't shoot Saddam, and now he's squacking about his so called rights awaiting trial. The steamroller must have broken down because we're still there fighting for god knows what. Just pull out and the middle east can go to hell. Not our f-ing problem. _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Actually how a soldier who sees it on tv will hopefully say that it is an accurate representation of what is going on in Iraq. That is afterall what the producer hoped to do. But you talk about "How will the troops feel" and you've got Casey Sheehan's mom barking like a complete loon. You've got multiple groups that are trying to chip away at morale. And I said "almost with glee". I've seen plenty of posts on other websites with people who would say they are on your side in this argument. The only difference between what you might post and them is they'll link their article with and "Enjoy!" Those are the associations. I believe even Michael Moore had a headline "14 Marines take a permanent vactaion" If you're offended I'm sorry, but be more careful of how you post. By the way it wasn't a lie, so it might be a mistake but it wasn't a mistake on Bush's part. It would be a mistake on the part of the intelligence community, and the CIA head George "WMD are a Slam Dunk" Tenet. Just because one general says we need more troops doesn't make it true. I think most others were saying that we were good to go. As for the body armor and such, well you'll need to talk to your buddy John Kerry and his friends again, since they voted against more funding for military needs around the start of the war. I'll also tell you that nothing ever goes right in a war. Supplies get mixed up, sent to the wrong locations, having to completely change a plan because the morons in Turkey decide to kiss the feet of the French. Also the equipment wasn't faulty. Humvees are meant to be a light armored transport. With all the up armoring of these Humvees, their weight distribution has shifted causing more likely of roll overs. And yet for all the claims all the "mistakes" the Iraqi army and Saddam's government was toppled in just a few weeks. Its just amazing even though America always has The Wrong Army Oh and here's one of those wondeful bastions of text, Time Magazine, to show that hindsight is an absolutely wonderful thing. Americans are losing the peace _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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Thanks for your comments Severus, but if you think I would smile about deaths of soldiers, or anybody, thats a sickening thought, my god. I know several soldiers personaly and that comment strikes me hard and makes me sad. I post things like that because everybody acts like its over and its all going as planned. I cannot believe that they even made a T.V. series about it, even while soldiers are still in Iraq. I wonder how a soldier who's been in Iraq for three terms and is forced into going a fourth feels if he comes across it on the television  I can agree with you on alot of points, I'm not saying Saddam should've been left alone or isn't evil but either my President lied, or he made a mistake in my eyes. The mistake as in firing a 4-star general because he told the truth, that we needed more troops, that we rushed it. I got inside info from a close family friend who was there with the 1st marines divine on invasion day. They had one MRE a day in 120 degree weather, and they even had to give their MRE's to the special forces because they had none, my friend said "I guess they needed it more then us (with a little smile)". The equipment is faulty, they had to build there own makesift armor from scrapmetal, the bodyarmor doesn't protect them and so on... _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Aug 19 2005 12:50am. |
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Esta - Student
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Quick side note.. I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one who cares about what's going on, but I didn't expect this thread to come close to a flame war. We all have our opinions, and they're welcome here, but please don't take them personally. Anyway. I think Ash put it pretty well saying we need facts, but what facts are there? Everything is in some way, biased in favour of someone who wants to look good to the public. It's difficult to know what's going on out there without actually going, so none of us can be entirely sure enough to base a solid view. I do believe civilians are being shot down, but I also believe that it is not the soldiers' fault, and they're doing a good thing to remove a directly opressive situation from Iraq. *edit* Just picked out this from that 'sanctuary' link. "Now if that’s all there was to it, you might say that the whole uniform thing is not such a groovy idea. BUT! What a uniform also does -- the corollary to the whole idea of a uniformed person – is to say that if the individual wearing a uniform is a legitimate target, then the person standing next to him in civilian clothes is not." I think this explains how the troops must feel out there, everyone could be hiding a weapon or explosive.. As for economic invasion.. that one is based on facts mate. _______________ -Kauyon Draconis [Official master of Ataris] This comment was edited by Esta on Aug 18 2005 11:07pm. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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Quote: I made no personal comments about you sir, none what so ever. I find it despicable when you would say that about me, but even when I have said nothing about you. You don't know me, and you don't know what I feel in my heart. True, but you do seem to report everything bad about the war, Bush, w/e with some sort of a smile (not to say you're happy about the happening itself, I know you probably aren't), as to say you've found another reason why Bush is bad, and shouldn't be a president. Most of your threads (in my opinion anyway) shone through this statement: "It's all Bush's fault" or "the war is needless" Don't get me wrong. I know you can't know everything Buzz knows, simply because you're younger (I read somewhere you are around 16?). I don't even know half of what he's saying. Buzz might have gone a bit over the top by saying your way of acting is sickening but, I think he only wanted to point out what you do each time. Getting frustrated is easy (even on the internet) and sometimes you can stay stuff you never meant to sound like that. I'm not telling you to stop this, and neither is he, I'm sure. I know it must be frustrating to look at all those deaths in the war, and being somewhat of a Pacifist myself, I do know what you feel and what you mean. The only problem is you're clinging to the deaths of those Americans to say that the Bush Administration is at fault. Of course you would call Bush a liar, I understand your feelings, but as Buzz pointed out, he's not the first to actually lie, and he was wrong in trusting those wmd reports. And being wrong isn't lying, even though they are similar. The fact of the matter remains though, that Saddam did have all ingredients (besides a few, according to some sources, all ingredients according to others) to make wmd's, and as such, he was a threat. Bush opted to remove this threat once and for all, and one day, Iraq will be for the better of it. There are numerous reports on his sons, and just think of what would have happened if they had gotten hold of the throne of Iraq. Things might even have became worse. Saddam's removal was necessary, in my opinion. And like Buzz pointed out, there must always be a first. If Afghanistan was the first, then Iraq is second, and someone will be third. Maybe one day we can resolve all problems the world has (like Africa, Middle-East and own countries) but it has to start somewhere. _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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I made no personal comments about you sir, none what so ever. I find it despicable when you would say that about me, but even when I have said nothing about you. You don't know me, and you don't know what I feel in my heart. _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
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Ash - Eats Babies 
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I'm a piss poor journalism student Buzz. I don't have a major yet. I got into this to write crappy entertainment perspectives for crappy entertainment magazines. I have feeling though that I will end up just becoming some bitter editorialist for a dead paper in the middle of nowhereville. Most of the students would probably think they are reporting the straight up facts. They want to save the world and shake up people to rally some views. But these are the same students who sit around watching MTV, listening to angsty music and blog their feelings about how the world is crumbling. _______________ "We keep odd hours...." ----------------------- They Live, We Sleep |
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Buzz - Student
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Ash being a journalism student, let me ask you this question. Why are you a journalism major? Why do you want to do it? Are you hoping to report the facts? Or do you want to help make the world a better place? Journalism is the job of reporting facts. Go ask some of your classmates that question too, then ask them who they voted for. I bet I can predict what a lot will say on both issues. But there is no media bias though....sure..... _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Ash - Eats Babies
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I usually don't post in these types of threads. I'm a non confrontational kinda guy. These threads just end up with too much flaming. Everyone spills out their opinions and ideals and blah blah. It just seems kinda pointless. The only thing I wanted to say in here is that, as a Journalism student, you REALLLLLLY shouldn't get your facts online. I didn't read what you posted but I looked at the sources. Only two of the sources are actual newspapers and even at that a newspaper can sometimes be a non valid source. What with plagerism and biasing and all. So to conclude, if your going to try and sway a point try getting some better sources. The newspapers were a good start but you need more concrete facts. _______________ "We keep odd hours...." ----------------------- They Live, We Sleep |
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Buzz - Student
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The news they don’t want you to hear huh? Just ask yourself which “they” it is. If its available for you to find then its there to be reported on. Here are things that I find more telling of what is happening. http://curtweldon.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=32193 This refers to Able Danger. Have you heard much about Able Danger? I doubt it. It shines some bad light on the Clinton Administration in policies they had which made 9/11 happen just a bit easier. http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=3718901 Insurgent chemical lab with 1,500 gallons of dangerous substances. Have you heard much of this either? I doubt it, that would raise the question of which country gave them the stuff, and then where that country got it from. Joshua Key is likely a liar and exaggerating a lot of things. He’s a deserter that needs to go to jail. You want to know why they have to fire on people who don’t stop? Because a bunch of scumbags have violated the sanctuary of the civilian population. Its unfortunate that it happens but you’re trying to blame the wrong people. BushGreenWatch? I really doubt they have an objective view on anything and have the real reasons for tax breaks to oil companies. In fact since its endorsed by MoveOn, I can call it a website of complete and utter drivel that is useless for a source. Wow the Rollingstone as a political news source; genius. But really Bush spending money does piss me off. He spends it like a democrat. That’s not a positive. The economic invasion? An opinion piece in the LA Times. Well first off there isn’t a government in Iraq to handle the infrastructure yet. That’s the purpose of the current government. To write the constitution that will handle these things. You want a reason to disallow the Iraqi’s from being able to dictate preference in reconstruction? Its easy enough. Iraq is still rather tribal in many aspects. You allow them to dictate this and you’ll run a problem you have in Africa a lot of times. The official taking care of his group first instead of the ones that really need it. The WaPo article. That is unfortunate, good, and unfortunate for varying reasons. It is first unfortunate because things aren’t going as well as was hoped. It’s good that they are shedding the rosey view though. And it is again unfortunate that they are showing a weaker stomach to get the job done. Whereas many would think that because of this it would be time to “take our ball and go home” that cannot be done. It should not be done. If you in any sense claim to be a compassionate person and want to see the lives of people in the world improved, you should want the U.S. to succeed in Iraq. I just hope they don’t move the goalposts. If it takes 5 years longer than originally thought, then you take those extra 5 years. How many Iraqi civilians have died? Well you can’t get an accurate number. All locations that take deaths also include insurgents along with civilians, so you have that misleading number. Then you have to ask who’s killing the civilians, and its not the U.S. It’s the insurgents. So if you want to get mad at who’s doing the killing be sure to funnel your rage at the right group. The 100,000 dead is not an accurate number either so don’t bother believing it or citing it. Plo Koon, you have a habit of reporting deaths almost with glee. Its sickening. For your comment in the other thread on that frothing loony Sheehan, I give you a mother sensible in her grief. Marine's mother: Support the fight There are more like this woman than Sheehan. And you don’t support liars right Plo? Afterall that’s your complaint against Bush, that he lied. Prove that he lied. And being wrong is not lying. But let’s take a look at who your family voted for. First you have Al “I invented the internet” Gore. And then you have John “I've promised on national television to sign the forms to release all of my military records, but to this day have not” Kerry. Two shining examples of truth there. But its about WMD’s that the lies are about right? Of course. http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm and http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html If you claim that Bush is a liar then everyone quoted there are also liars. Go ask your daddy about all those quotes. Go also ask him where was Clinton’s exit strategy for Kosovo or Bosnia. Ask why Clinton promised to have the troops home by Christmas but they are still there. Ask him where the UN approval for Kosovo was, or the Congressional approval even. Ask him what threats Kosovo posed to the US. That is your criteria right? Also ask him which president made regime change the US policy to Saddam and Iraq. I’ll tell you right now, their last name wasn’t Bush. You also might also want to ask why British Intelligence still stands by their assertion that Saddam tried to obtain uranium from Niger. Could it be because that useful idiot Wilson was only able to find one source to not be true, and there are still 2 other sources the British Intelligence had for this. Those have still not been debunked. No US people were killed in Iraq prior to the invasion? True, perhaps, but not for lack of trying on Saddam’s part. First you have the attempted assassination of former president Bush. You also have Saddam firing on US and UK jets that was in direct violation of the cease fire. Terror Ties: Saddam paid the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, many of which did kill US citizens. The plotter behind the 93 WTC bombing lived in Iraq. Then there’s Salman Pak. That’s a terrorist training facility in Iraq Pre-War times. Can you say “oops” now or later? As for WMD’s. I’m going to use an analogy I’m stealing from someone else. If you walk into someone’s kitchen and you find cookie dough all mixed up except for the eggs being added, the eggs are on the counter, the oven is preheating, and the recipe for making cookies is on the counter, what would you say is going on? That is how Iraq’s weapons programs were. The cookies weren’t done but it would take very long to get them started up. That was also a justification for invading Iraq; to keep him from being a threat. Let’s also look at your garbage assessment between Africa and Iraq. First that’s not an argument to use because that’s saying “there are all these other bad places why don’t you go attack them too.” By that you’re actually suggesting that we do go do that, and really you don’t want that. And also for that claim, there’s always got to be a first. And who better to be the first than a dictator that kills his own people, has invaded two countries, has violated every resolution placed against him, has had wmd programs in the past, shown that he will use them, was listed as a member of the Axis of Evil. Show me an equivalent country in Africa and you might have ground to stand on. Let’s also face facts Plo. You don’t care if Bush “Lied.” That is disingenuous on your part. You’ve been against it since the start even when there was only the intelligence of Saddam still having his wmd programs. Don’t try to fake outrage to something you didn’t care about from the start. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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Quote: - 1,829 American troops have died since the Iraq invasion in March 2003.... but how many Iraqi civilians have? Far many more. Just about everyone who openly supported the Americans during the Golf War. What do you think those mass-graves in Iraq were for? Criminals? I don't think so ... Quote: After that I refused to open fire indiscriminately, preferring to give people the benefit of the doubt. It’s clear it was us who was in the wrong. ... tell that to those soldiers who walked straight into a trap, thinking they met Iraqian Rebels, and lowered their weapons. They actually met a gun in their face. They were all shot ... besides two, I believe. Would you trust anyone in Iraq after that? I'm very sorry to hear about that kid and his dad getting shot, I really am With all due respect to Joshua Key and his opinion, I don't agree with him. Quote: Just families, people who we’re terrorizing, and whose lives we’re tearing apart… Of course there's nothing there. We're all shooting at ghosts right? There are no terorrists using a pregnant woman as a live shield (I heard there's even footage of that, but I never found it), there are no car bombs, there is no terrorism, of course not. Say that to those who died because they felt America finally came to liberate them during the Golf War. Most of those people are dead ... But of course there is no reason to rescue them from their dictator of course ... Edit: I hope this thread won't turn into a flamewar because of my heavy sarcasm _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This comment was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Aug 18 2005 06:18pm. |
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Esta - Student
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It sickens me that things this happen, and it's a shame that it all seems to be linked to G.W.Bush or America in some way. There's a lot of America-haters out there.. I don't hate America, or it's people, I just hate the way those in powerful places abuse their power. - 1,829 American troops have died since the Iraq invasion in March 2003.... but how many Iraqi civilians have? _______________ -Kauyon Draconis [Official master of Ataris] This comment was edited by Esta on Aug 18 2005 02:09pm. |
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Jeramia Adept - Student 
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yes i dispise my ignorant, foolish presidant _______________ The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is. Padawan Brother to Darth Sirius |
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Plo Koon - Student
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Take a look at my thread, click We (my family, I'm underage) voted for Gore in 2000, then we voted for Kerry in 2004, I really don't like my president as being president. I totally appose the war, there where no weapons of mass destruction, there where no U.S. deaths in Iraq prior to the invasion, and there where no terrorists from Iraq! Saddam Hussien did nothing against the U.S. He was a sick evil dictator who tortured and killed his own people, but look at africa, they don't have oil. That's why we dont go there. My president lied to me, and tricked the majority of Americans into thinking that Sadamm Hussien was going to sneak nuclear weapons into the states and blow us all to kingdom come. Now that were in Iraq, insurgents are flooding in from other countries. I agree with you. _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Aug 18 2005 09:42pm. |
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Grycen - Student 
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Agreed. _______________ Owner of Pink Floyd's 480th comment, Darth Sirius's 250th comment, my paddy bro Stig's 225th comment, BDKawika's 200th comment and Jedifire's 100th comment. |
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Jeramia Adept - Student 
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yes sir it is. _______________ The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is. Padawan Brother to Darth Sirius |
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