| Scared about Irak | |
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Kueller - Student  |
I live in Holland and our prime misister just said that he surports Bush. I really don't agree and so does 3/4 of my country but still he sais it. Now i'm afraid that Irak will bombard us. I NEED COMFORT, SADAM, PLEASE PROMISE TO NOT THROW BOMS ON US. _______________ Personal sleepness-nights-supporter of Virtue. Owner of the 1000th comment of Daidalus and 1943th comment of Gradius! Owner of the 300th comment of Carda! -Taught Gradius all his laming skills  |
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Mistral - Ex-Student 
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Oops, sorry Buzz. My mistake.
Maybe it's me that needs more sleep  .
We're all looking for the same end result, peace and freedom of choice for the people of Iraq. Many of the worlds most powerfull nations are opposed to this war, Russia has even went so far as to call for an immediate end to the invasion. I disagree with that. It's already started and for better or worse I think it should be followed through. If everything goes according to plan then maybe, in about a year or so when Iraq has recovered, other nations in the region may take note, hopefully. Unfortunately I don't think the fanatics will. That's why I believe the use of force was too risky. It's true that wars start due to disagreement but that doesn't make it right. I should also say that some of the points of view I have put across are not necessarily my own but the potential views of those in the Middle East. I simply made those points to continue our debate and put across another perspective. I like a good argument so long as it's constructive. Many of your comments have prompted me to think in a different direction, understand things a little more. I value that, thanks. Anyway, I'm off to play Generals, suddenly got the urge. Oh and GF. This comment was edited by Mistral on Mar 22 2003 08:28am. |
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Jedi Al Khalaas - Student 
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Deeds not words.
The military action has started, and if it genuinly replaces Saddam , with a democratic alternative , then great. Watch very closely not the current tanks and bombs.Wait until the dust has settled and see what happens afterwards. If a remgime is installed that doesnt represent the people of Iraq and their intrests then all this will come back to haunt us. A good example is Afghanistan, do we hear what is happening in that country now? How is the nation rebuilding going? Dont hear much do you? |
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FaDed - Student 
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i'd add my comments, but buzz has pretty much summed it all up. kudos to you my friend. good show. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Mistral I didn't say you were the one calling Bush dumb. I wasn't addressing you there. You've actually been fairly reasonable in your posts. Don't put words into my mouth. I've seen others though doing it.
And I really wish people would shut up with "the US is doing this alone." We're not! There are over 30 countries supporting us in this. That's the whole reason this thread came up. Because Kueller is wetting himself because his government is supporting the US. (That's a joke Kueller please take no offense.) Diplomacy was given 12 years and it stopped working with Saddam a long time ago. The best thing for Saddam would have been for more endless debate in the UN, never getting around to the fact that he's a threat. Just because how many people will see it doesn't make that how they are seeing it is right. I'm ashamed to say that only 17% of Americans know that none of the 9/11 terrorists were from Iraq. Does that make the 83% right in their thinking? Shouldn't try to remove a leader from power because we don't agree with his views? That's pretty much the reason for every war. In WW2 the allies didn't agree that Hitler wanted to have them as a part of Germany. We fought a revolution because we didn't agree with Brittains views of how the colonies should be run. If we all agreed on everything then there would be no war and conflict. There would be no elections in free countries because it wouldn't matter who was in power because no one disagrees with the methods. There never would have been a united front. France was going to veto any authorization of force which resolution 1441 authorized if Saddam didn't comply. Diplomacy hasn't ended yet. There are still more nations joining the coalition of the willing as it is called. When we are truly alone then I'll accept you saying we're abusing our power and damn the rest of the world. But you know what, if it does come to that and it happens because it is the right thing to do then I will say damn the rest of the world. Sometimes doing what's right isn't the most popular way. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Mar 21 2003 01:21am. |
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Mistral - Ex-Student
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Bush mentioned he wanted Saddam dead in one of his speeches and alluded to his plans for Iraq in an interview. When prompted for more information he simply said "wait and see".
I hear what your saying regarding the menace that is Saddam but no country has the right to take it upon themselves to remove the leader of another country because he doesn't agree with his views. Or because of what he MIGHT do in the future. Diplomacy should have been given more time. Surely better than going to war? With a united front and more pressure it could have worked. Instead we have Big Bad America abusing its power and doing whatever it pleases, to hell with everyone else! And make no mistake, that's exactly how many will see it. Thats why use of force is such a mistake. It could end up doing far more harm than good, if it hasn't already done so. Also, "Do you really think that Bush wants a long drawn out war that is going to cost a lot of money for us and result in increasing casualties for both sides. If you think that than you're dumber than what people claim Bush is." WTF Buzz??? What do you mean by that? Exactly when did I say I thought that? You need to get some sleep Buzz, you're starting to see things that aren't there.  |
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Buzz - Student
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Mistral, have you ever had a math problem you couldn't figure out? So you try and solve it one way. That doesn't work so you try a different way. That doesn't work so you try it a third way and that finally gives you a solution that makes sense. Here's the "math" problem: There's a man in control of a country that has had WMD and has tried to get even more. He's invaded other countries with the intent to take them over and make them a part of his own. He hate's the Western World and if someone proposed a method for him to give them his weapons and they'd use them to attack his enemies he probably would do it. Now here are the methods that have been tried to solve the problem: Resolutions in the UN to get him to dismantle his WMD. That hasn't worked, even Hans Blix has said that. It hasn't been just one Resolution. Go look at Ulics post and you'll see a list of them. Obviously trade embargoes and resolutions don't solve the problem. Then there is disarm him by force. That could work but he'd still be in power and once we take away all his toys he'd probably start working on getting more back up over the next few years. Now there's the regime change. It will remove him from power, remove the others from power that could carry on what he was doing, remove the threat that he poses to the countries around him and the threat he poses to the US. Not to mention that removing him from power will give the people who have lived under his dictatorship this thing called a choice.
Now you ask what gives us the right to go in and remove a man from power that you just admitted was cruel and SHOULD be removed from power. I think you answered your own question. I never once heard Bush say that he wants Saddam dead. And I never once heard any proposed policy of his while he was campaigning for the presidency that he had a "big plan" to get rid of Saddam. And stop with the oil alright. Use some sense. If it were only about the oil then the simple solution would have been to just leave Saddam alone, remove the embargo's on Iraq and just let him sell the oil to everyone. Everyone hopes this war ends quickly with a minimum loss of life. Do you really think that Bush wants a long drawn out war that is going to cost a lot of money for us and result in increasing casualties for both sides. If you think that than you're dumber than what people claim Bush is. edit* Tito, I really hate to break it to you but The US led coalition against Iraq in the 90's didn't end with us losing. If we had lost there would be no Kuwait right now. There probably wouldn't be much of a Saudi Arabia either. The point last time was to get him out of Kuwait. Then it wasn't about getting him out of power of his country. They were talking to Dan Quayle on Fox News here and he stated that no one suggested the goal of getting Saddam out of power. Although he also said that if they had known that letting him stay put and he'd still be in power today they might have thought differently then. Hindsight is always 20/20 _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Mar 20 2003 11:55pm. |
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Mistral - Ex-Student
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Nobody disputes the fact that Saddam is a cruel dictator and should be removed from power Buzz, but what exactly gives the U.S the right wade in and invade? Is it because he may pose a threat in the future? Who's next?
This has been part of Georges "big plan" since before he came to power. Why? Bush said it was to remove the "weapons of mass destruction", then said it wasn't about that and he wanted regime change. Then he wanted Saddam dead, now he wants him to leave. Or maybe it's about the oil. It's not exactly a new tactic is it? Trouble at home? Problems with your economy? Start a war, simple. Or maybe he just wants the money Saddam owes the U.S after his dad sold him some "weapons of mass destruction"! Who knows. On the subject of "the war on terror" You asked, "what military action did we do that made Al Qaeda go and take out the WTC?" Answer, nothing. Don't forget we're not exactly dealing with rational minds here. They're prepared to die in the hope that it will take them a step closer to defeating their enemy. They fear America and percieve it as a threat to their way of life. To a large portion of the Middle East this invasion is a terrorist attack, an attack that will only serve to increase their fear and hatred of the west. A hatred which, thanks to this "war", now threatens to spread to other parts of the world. Still, I guess there's no point in saying how bad an idea this attack is. It's already started. I just hope it's over quickly, with minimum loss of life. I also hope the damage done to the international community can be repaired just as quickly. Time will tell. |
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FaDed - Student 
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well said buzz *applause*  |
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Buzz - Student 
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Yeah Saddam has been in power since 1979. Before that Iraq was prosperous country. Now its poverty stricken. He's gassed his own people The Kurds in the north and the Shi'Ites in the south. He's started wars. He's built chemical weapons and tried to build nuclear weapons. You know I haven't really seen the media say he's doing it for the oil. I've seen a bunch of liberal columnists making up a bunch of bunk to try and make it seem like that. If Bush just wanted the oil the way to do that would to be like France and just be all buddy buddy with Saddam. Saddam cannot be trusted. He said he wasn't going to set fire to the oil fields if we attacked. And I'm watching the news right now and they're waiting for complete confirmation that he has done just that. And if you think its about the oil because you hear a bunch of celebrities whining about people driving SUVs instead of their supposed hybrid cars that they drive, when they aren't being driven around in full size limos, or flying in Jet's everywhere. The amount of fuel a jet uses for one person on jet is so out of proportion with the gas an SUV driver takes its ridiculous. I really hope you're not listening to a bunch of actors to get your "information"
You don't have to agree with your government if they support us. You're allowed to dissent. You probably don't have politicians that are in opposition to your leader actively saying that its a bad idea like we've had some democrats here doing. The same democrats that fully supported Clinton attacking Iraq in 1998 without going to the UN. This was being said just days before we were going in, with all of our troops in position. Remember this, you can voice your disagreement with your government. And can probably vote to change it when the time comes. The people in Iraq can't. If you disagree with saddam you'll be jailed or shot. If you in the "election" would have put down "no" they'll be jailed. You might be scared because your government decided to do the right thing by helping to liberate a country. Imagine the people there that have to live in fear every day. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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TiTo (inactive) - Student 
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But what is Bush's motivation for war?
On tv he claims it's because he wants to rid Saddam from rulership, and stop terrorism. Media claims that it is because of the oil. But there must be more than that! I don't know what it could be! Revenge??? U know, for Bush Senior loosin against Iraq! But I think that it seems a litte far-fetched... And Aratan... Hvornår får jeg min nisse???  _______________ Not back yet... I'll come one day, I hope... The madman formerly (and still) known as Tito! Coming to take back my title as "Most insane 'person' in the JA" It's the bizzi, wizza, jizzi, Wizzil, Bizon, wizzay, Wizzat, fizzil ¶°TiTo°¶ - All work and no play makes Tito burn the bacon! - Officially cured from spamming!!!
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Buzz, there is a difference in countries officially supporting America and the people of the countrys supporting America.
And you cannot really blaim much of the people if Iraq, Saddam has been there for a long time and the propaganda (especially in the schools) make sure the people doesn't just go support America. Tito-> Just wait my friend, your turn is coming up.... This comment was edited by Jacen Aratan on Mar 20 2003 10:40am. |
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Buzz - Student
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You know terrorism occurs in other countries. Its not really uncommon to hear that some suicide bomber blew up a bus. I'd personally not like to see that become common occurance here in the US. If you think attacking Iraq and Al Qaeda is going to cause terrorist attacks then my question for you is what military action did we do that made Al Qaeda go and take out the WTC. Its not the war on terrorism. Its the war on TERROR. There's a difference there. Would like to wait to get Saddam out of power or reduce the threat that he poses AFTER he gets his hand on a nuclear war head. France is the one that sold him a nuclear reactor and enough weapons grade uranium to make three warheads. Israel knocked that out because there was really no question about which country he would want to use it on. And I really wish people would stop saying that the rest of the world doesn't support us. There are more than 30 nations officially backing us up and participating in the liberation of Iraq. That's one of the larger coalitions that there have been. Saddam doesn't listen to the UN if he did this wouldn't even be happening, he would have stopped being a threat to the world years ago. Even Hans Blix said that the only thing they fully cooperated with was getting the inspectors out of Iraq.
You're entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to think about the reasons for what is being done over there. But I have friends and family that know people in the military and I'm going to support them. I'm also going to support my president because despite what so many people think, despite what so many people say, he's not a moron, he's not doing this just for oil, he's doing it because it is the right thing to do. If there was a way besides use of force that would end the threat Saddam poses he would have supported that but that's been proven that there isn't. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Jedi Al Khalaas - Student 
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I would have preferred it if the US via CIA does what it normally does, fund internal anti-Saddam groups to deal internally with Saddam with out the need to go to war.
Ooops sorry I forgot, at the end of the last Gulf war the Kurds in the north and the Shia's in the south tried exaclty to do that but the US left them out to dry after stirring them up . So Saddam then just went in and gassed and bommbed and killed them all. So they wont be trying that again in a hurry. |
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Mistral - Ex-Student 
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Firstly, I should point out that none of my comments should be seen as anti-american. America's one of my favourite countries, It's just that I find the current presidents leadership qualities questionable to say the least.
Invading Iraq has been part of Bush's agenda since long before 9/11. The "war on terrorism", in this instance, is simply a convenient propaganda tool. It's true Saddam has been ordered repeatedly to disarm for the past 12 years. It should be pointed out though he had been building "weapons of mass destruction" for longer. Since the 80s in fact, when Bush sr sold them to him. Bush has also stated that these weapons are no longer the issue, removing Saddam is. I remember the footage of people dancing in the streets and it sickened me too. Iraq was not alone in this. Does the US have a right to punish them for that? For their misguided beliefs? Does it really justify invasion? Surely this "war" will only serve to increase anti-american sentiment, making things much worse. Not just for America, for the world. |
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FaDed - Student
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the reason for attacking Iraq is that saddam has repeatedly been ordered for the PAST 12 YEARS to disarm and cease production of chemical weapons. everytime he has refused to do so and denied that he even had such weapons. bush finally said that this is the last straw and i fully support him in it.
about the terrorism itself, i did not say that we were the only ones who had been attacked. i said that we were and europe wasn't. the proof of iraq supporting terrorism is in that they are anti-western. they danced in their streets at the attacks on the WTC. i never mentioned anything about them supplying terrorist organizations with weapons, but as you said, it is still a possibility. if the US is in this alone, we'll do it alone. we have the means and the will to do so. |
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Mistral - Ex-Student
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FadedGlory the US isn't the only country to suffer terrorist attacks and many people from around the world died in the attack you refer to.
As far as Iraq supporting terrorism goes, do you have proof of that? No. It's alleged that he MIGHT supply terrorists with weapons. Is this reason enough to attack, without the rest of the worlds backing? I don't think so. "The only ones who really give a damn about terrorism"? Better get used to it. If this unprovoked invasion is going to accomplish anything it's more terrorism. |
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Iceman - away- - Student |
Well I live in sweden neighbor to norway and denmark. And we are neutral. This comment was edited by Iceman - away- on Mar 19 2003 11:12pm. |
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FaDed - Student
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i don't know if you people understand what it is we are trying to accomplish. yes it's a war, yes people are gonna die. but when you have a crazed s.o.b running a country that supports terrorism, IN ANY FORM, i think that is definite cause for action. all you europeans weren't the ones attacked by anti-western terrorists. we were! i don't want to make the US sound better than the rest of the world, but it sure as hell seems like we're the only ones that really give a damn about terrorism. |
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Battlin' Billy - Student 
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I'm a bit scared about the whole thing. My brother lives in NYC not too far from where the WTC was. And I only live about an hours drive or so away from there. There's no question that NYC is going to be one of the main targets for any terrorist attack.
I almost lost him on 9-11 and he escaped with about 10-15 mins. b4 the buildings came down. That's a little too close for comfort. _______________ Midbie Council Member #2 - Profile ID 2073 | Member of B@rtM@ulS@ar | Owner of Monty's 2000th comment & D@RtHM@UL's 8100th comment | Former Padawan of SilkMonkey & Arcuss JA Goaltender & NHL Fan | Fellow Rush fan to Axion|Plo Koon is my oldest JA friend Post your RL pics HERE! | Post you JK2/JK3 screenies HERE! |
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TiTo (inactive) - Student
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Everybody wants to bomb Denmark... We have Aratan _______________ Not back yet... I'll come one day, I hope... The madman formerly (and still) known as Tito! Coming to take back my title as "Most insane 'person' in the JA" It's the bizzi, wizza, jizzi, Wizzil, Bizon, wizzay, Wizzat, fizzil ¶°TiTo°¶ - All work and no play makes Tito burn the bacon! - Officially cured from spamming!!!
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Silencio - Student 
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this is why I'm glad to live where I live. who gives a f*** about norway anyway? _______________ Second-in-command of the mighty FiZZsters |
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Fizz of Belouve - Student 
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Dude, noone on earth would actually bomb a country that belongs to the EU.
whats more, Saddam is barely able to bomb some neighbouring countries. Gladly, I live in Austria, we're neutral and do not support any war, whatsoever - and I like that. _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
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Buzz - Student
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Its also spelled Iraq. Living in fear and begging someone not to bomb you is no way to live. Begging and pleading to a lunatic not to blow up your country means you might as well roll over and let him start running it too. I don't know how the rest of the world thinks really. I don't claim to. Different cultures cause people to think different ways. But I think that after Pearl Harbor and 9/11 the US has finally gotten sick of waiting for our enemies to attack us first. I sure as hell think that if there is a country where its leader and not just a few radicals are preaching the downfall of the western world and has been trying to make nuclear biological chemical weapons, I'll feel a lot safer knowing he is out of power before he has to ability to release these in massive amounts rather than take him out after he kills millions of more people. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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TiTo (inactive) - Student
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U just sacrificed your country... YOU MISPELLED SADDAMS NAME!!!
The primeminister in Denmark also supports Bush! Anders Fogh (we all call him Anders Fuck) Rasmussen! _______________ Not back yet... I'll come one day, I hope... The madman formerly (and still) known as Tito! Coming to take back my title as "Most insane 'person' in the JA" It's the bizzi, wizza, jizzi, Wizzil, Bizon, wizzay, Wizzat, fizzil ¶°TiTo°¶ - All work and no play makes Tito burn the bacon! - Officially cured from spamming!!!
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