| Uk governement to change murder laws possibly | |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget  |
So it seems the Uk might adopt the USA approach to muder cases in classes them in to differnt degrees. ( 1st and 2nd ) Personally i think its a good idea, but i think maybe in extreme cases we should bring back capital punishment to try and stop some people killing people on purpose. What do you guys think ?? Good or Bad idea for UK ? LINK to the story BBC Law change Coverage* LINK is to a story closely linked to it all and possibly the starting cause of the change. BBC report* _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are 
Best Movie Character EVER!! This post was edited by Monteeeeeee on Dec 20 2005 09:30pm. |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Depending on the source you trust, our murder rates are anywhere between 4 and 7 murders annually per 100,000 people. One problem with comparing murder rates around the world, however, is that such statistics only include the murders that law-enforcement is willing to report--and able to report, for that matter. I've never seen Chad on one of those lists, for example, but as someone who spent a year there I can assure you it's way up there, only the Chadian police are too busy collecting bribes to care. I doubt if they even collect such statistics. The numbers for the U.S. are probably reliable because in the U.S. it is extremely rare that a corpse goes unaccounted for, and this is true in much of the industrialized world. You don't just find a dead guy on the streets of London or Paris without an official inquiry and a ton of paperwork resulting. Note that where the U.S. "ranks" in terms of murder rates is not particularly revealing. It's easy for citizens of nation XYZ to brag that their murder rate is only the 51st-highest (or whatever) in the world while ours is the 24th-highest, until you note that the 24th-highest is something like 4.1 murders per 100,000 people while most of the lower "ranked" nations are just a little bit below that. And again, this has a lot to do with what the government is willing to report. Know what an "honor killing" is? Google it if you don't. Yet my understanding is that Saudi Arabia has a stunningly low official murder rate--forgive me if I'm extremely skeptical. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Kenyon - Lord of the Dance 
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Quote: And no, the United States does not have a high murder rate. That's another persistent myth I wish would just go away. I don't know, I suppose it depends on what you think is high. Crime surveys are done quinquennially, and I haven't seen a report more recent than 2000, so my info can be quite out of date, but in the world murder rates the United States ranked #24. Obviously, countries like Colombia, Jamaica and Russia score higher than the U.S. But most West-European countries (Germany, U.K, France, Denmark) rank in the fourties and fifties, considerably lower. I wouldn't say the United States are unsafe at all - but I would say there is definite room for improvement.  |
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JavaGuy - Student
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No, no, no. In the attempted murder scenario I presented, the attempted murderer actually takes the shot. It doesn't require a confession, just a terrified neighbor calling the cops when a bullet whizzes by him and a ballistics lab to match the bullet to the gun. If that were the only evidence, of course, his attorney could argue that it was an accident, but in the real world people planning crimes tend to leave a trail of evidence that would be discovered once the cops began searching his house and talking to his friends and coworkers. I was being flippant about the bananna peal, but this is basically a realistic example. The legality of his actions is changed by the mere happenstance of the bananna peal. And in the real world, people do get convicted of attempted murder, with or without a confession. I don't see why their punishments should be different from those for a successful murderer. And no, the United States does not have a high murder rate. That's another persistent myth I wish would just go away. In fact, almost twice as many Americans commit suicide as are murdered (by someone else, that is). Thomas Sowell raised another good point: If murder rates were higher in places that have the death penalty, a more reasonable supposition would be that voters in those states are just fed up and voted in some hard-core tough-on-crime guys. In states with low rates of violent crime, voters would be more likely to vote for candidates who concentrate more on other issues like jobs and roads. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Casual - Student 
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Quote:
Quote: From a practical perspective, are their actions different? Well from the neighbors' point of view, sure, since one of them is dead. But are their actions difference from a practical viewpoint to the rest of society? I agree with you, but how would attempted murder be punished if the neighbour in question wasn't harmed at all? It reminds me of that scenario from Minority Report - can you punish someone for what you are certain he is going to do? I believe the case in this scenario was if the person attempting the murder admits to it (quite unbelievable) so as to ponder solely on the practical vs. moral dilemma. Of course, attempted murder usually falls into the category of there being evidence of premeditation (plans, surveillance, equipment) and evidence of the fact that the accused at some point had an intent to commit the crime. I believe a murder is an attempted murder when the final stage (ie. killing) "fails" in some way, such as the victim doesn't die. Kenyon brought up a nice point with the comparison to "Minority Report". When I was a lot geekier (but not as geeky as Rauc) I used to read a lot of Dragonlance novels, and they described an ancient civilazation of Istar where the High Priest cooked up something similar. He was so intent on removing evil from the world that he appointed certain magic-users to look into people's thoughts and arrest them if they see or hear an evil thought. Now how f*cked up is that? If you were to arrest every person in this world who has ever (no matter how subconciously) wished for somebody's death or something as evil you'd eventually see almost everybody in jail. It's in the human nature to act on the spur of the moment. It's the murderers who actually formulate a plan out of that thought and later on put that plan into action. And what if a would-be murderer has a change of heart at the very last moment? The second he's about to pull the trigger he actually feels a pang of guilt, drops the gun and runs to the nearest airport? I say convict him too, and harshly. Of course, it must be taken into account that he had some humane quality still left in his miserable self. The point is that he had taken a step further from daydreaming. I would say that it falls into the category of attempted murder, even though no final action was taken. Of course, we'd have to know a bit more about the case, since I'm sure that some people actually make plans to kill people "just for fun", as something to get kicks out of. Oh, all the "he"s in this text can be replaced with a "she". I'm sure women make just as good killers as men. Cas _______________ Thanks to the human heart by which we live, Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. |
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Kenyon - Lord of the Dance 
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Quote: From a practical perspective, are their actions different? Well from the neighbors' point of view, sure, since one of them is dead. But are their actions difference from a practical viewpoint to the rest of society? I agree with you, but how would attempted murder be punished if the neighbour in question wasn't harmed at all? It reminds me of that scenario from Minority Report - can you punish someone for what you are certain he is going to do? |
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Buzz - Student 
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Violent crime rates in the US have been dropping for several years now. And monty, its not just that he was "doing good" now. He wasn't showing any real remorse or taking responsibility for his past actions, such as the murder of 4 people. AS opposed to the 61 people that Bush has pardoned as president. Quote: Since 2003, President Bush has pardoned 61 people, including the 11 granted Tuesday. Jones said that all those who received pardons shared a common characteristic: "Each demonstrated full acceptance and responsibility and remorse for their offense, and each has repaid his debt to society," he said. Link Ol' Tookie never admitted to the murders, and I don't think he ever went and helped the cops solve any other crimes and killings he was a witness/accessory to either. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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His execution was a lesson to others, just because u claim to be doing good now doesnt mean you sbouldnt pay for what you have previously done. If they let him off anyone who did murders would just claim to do the same thing as he was doing. His death was a statement that Murderes will not be tollerated. _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
Yea, Cas summed up a lot of what I wanted to say. As for the death penalty, I've been looking at it more from my own country's perspective. Quote: They concluded that for every execution, about 18 murders are prevented. That figure in itself is a reflection of America's high rates of murder, something I failed to take into account. Once again I don't have any figures relating to murder rates in Australia, however they are considerably lower than what is found in the US. The DP was abolished some time ago and is now strongly looked upon. It's deterrent value is extremely limited, considering we don't have nearly as many murders, therefore the figures would prove to be incommensurable. Quote: I'm glad he made his time in prison worthwhile, but he screwed up. Now he dies. Reform by means of rehabilitation or otherwise would always be my first preference over the most serious of punishments. I don't think I could look at the situation in black and white the way DJ has. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade 
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey 
Jools is my best friend. 
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Tookie did not make his time in prison worthwhile, in my opinion. His PR campaign hinged on two contradictory themes: * He didn't do it, was framed by Da Man, and * He's repented, reformed, is terribly sorry and will never do anything bad again. The whole thing reminded me of that scene from Orgasmo..."Do you see a problem here?" Being sorry starts with admitting guilt, but of course he didn't do it and won't do it again. Oh, he wrote a children's book in prison. He's a changed man. He's rejected his former life of violence that he still says he didn't actually lead. And he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize! Never mind that, 1. pretty much anybody can nominate anybody and, 2. historically the Peace Prize has been given to some real monsters. If he were really such a changed man, he'd start by admitting that he was a sumbitch and beg God and his victims' families to forgive him. Read the Governator's statement on the whole ugly affair. Casual raises many good points, but the hour grows late. I sleep now. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: The Crips founder guy could have reformed all he wants, but that doesn't change the fact that he murdered 4 people. I'm glad he made his time in prison worthwhile, but he screwed up. Now he dies. I think we should expand use of the death penalty. Make it an effective deterrent for all sorts of crimes. When I stage my glorious coup and place myself at the head of the new world government I will sanction lethal injection for everything from jaywalking to mass murder. People need to be kept in line, and I'm just the guy to hold the whip. Vote DJ for world dictator! DJ's Texas upbringing shines through :p Basically the Death Penalty is reserved for the absolute worst people. Those who have committed acts so heinous that removing them completely and fully from society is seen as a legitimate action. And I believe that in the circumstances of the death penalty, it is given in a jury trial, at least everytime you hear about it. If the convicted party is given the DP, I think the judge can decide to change that to a life sentence. Even if they get the DP they have a large number of appeals to go through to try and get their sentence changed. I believe the appeal process is one of the reasons that the death penalty is more expensive than a life sentence. Remove some of the appeals and you'll cut the cost on the death penalty. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff 
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Quote: When I stage my glorious coup and place myself at the head of the new world government I will sanction lethal injection for everything from jaywalking to mass murder. People need to be kept in line, and I'm just the guy to hold the whip. Vote DJ for world dictator!  Oh Noes! _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
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The Crips founder guy could have reformed all he wants, but that doesn't change the fact that he murdered 4 people. I'm glad he made his time in prison worthwhile, but he screwed up. Now he dies. I think we should expand use of the death penalty. Make it an effective deterrent for all sorts of crimes. When I stage my glorious coup and place myself at the head of the new world government I will sanction lethal injection for everything from jaywalking to mass murder. People need to be kept in line, and I'm just the guy to hold the whip. Vote DJ for world dictator! _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget
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i think the only purpose for 2nd degree murder in the UK law system would be for fights and such, like your out drinkin in town get in to a fight and someone ends up jumping on your head 10 times, he didnt set out to kill you but i wouldnt class that as manslaughter, manslaughter would be if the first or 2nd inital punch was to kill the person. Thats just a example obviously it wont be the only 2nd degree murder example _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Casual - Student
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I can't support my point of view with such verbosity and thoroughness as JavaGuy (great post, btw), but I do have an opinion on capital punishment. Let's start with morality. Saying that no one has the right to decide who lives and who dies is in my view a fallacy when talking about murderers. Since they abandoned all morality when commiting murder why should we treat them as humans anymore? When someone takes another person's life premeditatedly and with obvious malice and self-awareness, justice on their part should no longer be considered in the grounds of common morality and judgment. IMO they should be dealt with the harshest possible way. But on the other hand, pure cold-blooded murderers (animals, if you will) are utopia. I believe in reform and I believe that everyone must have an opportunity to do so. Ending someone's life is always a stream-blocker and raises questions. What if the person killed would have, in the future, by some miraculous discovery inherent only to him found a cure for cancer? Dying kills opportunity. Borderline and a poor example, I know, but dealing capital punishment is something I'd want to see only in cases where its repercussions have been thoroughly examined and where it is seen unanimously to be the "only thing to do". Take for example the recent execution of the Crips leader. He, in my opinion, had reformed. Sure, he deserved a life sentence, for what he did was horrible, and he obviously shows no regret. But his reform came in the form of enlightment, helping out young kids avoid the dangers of gang life. What an asset to society! And now he's gone and his work will soon be nothing but a distant inspiration. I also understand that keeping murderers in the slammer for a lifetime is costly to the government. Upholding a prisoner is not cheap, and especially with long-term sentences the costs are unbelieveable. So if I had to choose between a well-oiled society (thanks to government funds) or a prison full of murderers living off three meals a day I'd choose the first alternative. Of course, as Kueller stated, the death penalty has its flaws. When someone is found innocent years after the execution it's pretty devastating. Not only to the family and people close to the executed, but also to society, since we, as accepting the penalty of death, would be accomplices to murder too. Like I said, I condone capital punishment only when its applied to rid this world of beasts with no intention of reforming. But since this is not an ideal society, condoning capital punishment will lead also to problems. About the penalty system in the original thread discussion, I whole-heartedly approve setting different degrees for murder. But I also agree with JavaGuy that attempted murder and murder have no moral difference. And the practical difference (one lives, one dies) should not affect the judge when dealing judgment on the guilty one. Like I said, these are opinions, so feel free to bash me with figures and statistics, not that I give a rat's ass Cas _______________ Thanks to the human heart by which we live, Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. This comment was edited by Casual on Dec 21 2005 10:18pm. |
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3th - Retired 
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JG brings up a good point. i think that you're probably right that both should be tried on the same grounds. but i guess from a slightly humorous view, the law finds incompetent murderers less of a threat to society so they don't get the same punishment? on a more serious note, now that i think about it for a bit...what if at the last second the would be murderer has a change of heart and trys to foil his own actions, and this does spare the life of the person in some manner. i can see where cases like that could be problematic. but with the specific example you gave JG, yeah i'd say both deserve the exact same punishment. assuming the one that missed would still admit in court that he wants his would-be victim dead. _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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The argument that the death penalty does not deter murder has been resoundingly debunked numerous times, but you'd never know it from the mainstream media. Most "studies" showing that the death penalty does not prevent murders are simply studies showing that different age demographics and social/economic classes have different murder rates. It's well known that most violent crimes are committed by males between the ages of 15 and 25. I'm not impressed that people in their 50s are less likely than people in their 20s to commit murder even in the absence of a death penalty. Most such "studies" simply compare per-capita murder rates in all the death penalty states to the non-death penalty states, while ignoring a whole host of confounding issues. The most rigorous study of the death penalty to date was done by a couple of Chicago economists (I'll see if I can dig up a link) and compared county-by-county the states that did and didn't have the death penalty, carefully comparing counties with similar demographics so that the comparison was apples-to-apples. They concluded that for every execution, about 18 murders are prevented. This does not shut the door on the moral argument about the death penalty, but the oft-repeated slogan that "it's not a deterent" should have been put to rest a long, long time ago. It's a deterent, and the numbers are overwhelming. The moral question is: So it's a deterent...is it right? I'm in favor of the death penalty, but I could make a strong argument against it, and I certainly do not dismiss out of hand those who oppose it on moral grounds. On another note, somebody mentioned what happens if no killing actually ocurrs. This has always bothered me immensely, not with 2nd-degree murders, but with 1st-degree murders where the killer or would-be killer makes a plan to murder someone and then, with deliberation and malice, carries that plan out. Yet the law distinguishes between murder and attempted murder. I see no moral difference. There is a practical difference for the victim--he's dead in one case and alive in the other--but even the practical difference is meaningless for the rest of society, whose goals are to bring the criminal to justic and to protect itself from people who do things like that. Think about this: Peter and Paul both decide to murder their neighbors. Both buy a rifle. Both watch their neighbors for a few weeks so they know their schedules, their habits and when is the best time to take the shot. On the appointed evening, both sit on their balconies and take aim at their victims. Peter shoots his neighbor clean through the head, killing him. Paul's neighbor slips on a bananna peal just as Paul pulls the trigger, and the bullet whizzes harmlessly through where his head had been a split-second before. From a moral perspective, does the circumstance of the bananna peal, of which Paul had no knowledge, change the morality of his action? Is what Peter did worse because his neighbor didn't just happen to slip on a bananna peal? Yet one is 1st-degree murder and the other "merely" attempted murder. From a practical perspective, are their actions different? Well from the neighbors' point of view, sure, since one of them is dead. But are their actions difference from a practical viewpoint to the rest of society? We want to punish people who murder in cold blood. We want to deter others from planning and comitting similar crimes, and most of all we want to lock up the guys who did it the first time so that they can't do it again (whether they were successful or not the first time). I see no difference. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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3th - Retired
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the accidental murders are technically classified as manslaughter i think. so they are not tried as murder at all. and i do think it makes sense to have degrees of murder. heat of passion type murders and whatnot vs. premeditated carefully planned murders. edit: interesting, actually works like this. 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter. if they ask for a zip code just put in 65806 so you euros can clicky _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! This comment was edited by 3th on Dec 21 2005 09:57pm. |
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Jeramia Adept - Student 
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My insight on this subject is quite, simple, premeditated murder, intentional, and dileberate murders, should be taken care of with death and capitol punishment. Murders in which are caused by accident, I.E. operator of a peice of machenery which malfunctions, or any other unintentional should not be put to death, because those are accidents. However a punishment of a less severe nature should be implemented because he or she has to learn what not to do in order to save anothers life from being taken away. _______________ The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is. Padawan Brother to Darth Sirius |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
Quote: killers who intended to cause their victims "serious harm" but not to kill would be prosecuted for second degree murder Hmm not too familiar with the law in England, but how does a 'murder' charge apply to a case where no killing or death had taken place? Also, what exactly is a 'mercy killing'? I know that this isn't a debate about capital punishment but I think Kueller gave a good example of it's effectiveness, or lack of it. What happens when a man is given the capital punishment and is later found to be innocent? Also, it's effects as a deterrent are extremely limited. Don't have any statistics here, but off the top of my head: (read this last week i think) in America the levels of crime in states with capital punishment are no different than states that do utilise that punishment. Can anyone confirm that? At any rate, capital punishment serves to act as more of a life sentence for the dead man's immediate family/friends/relatives where they grieve for the loss, while the man... we'll he's just dead. I can't see it's effectiveness as a deterrent as ever being of great value and should seriously be reconsidered. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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Kueller - Student 
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I don't believe that any authority has the right to end someone's life, even if that person has taken life from someone else. It's just not up to us to decide who lives and who not. Plus that legal systems can make errors, and to discover a few years too late that someone was innocent but already executed is just something that should be escaped at all costs. For me, I think that life-long setence can be even worse then death. And the whole bullshit that it scares off ppl to kill someone is just what it is: bullshit. 90% of the murders are done because of tense emotions, with no thought and the animal instinct working. The other 10% are almost all cases where ppl put real thought behind it and wouldn't be scared out because of capital punishment because they think they can get away with it anyway. _______________ Personal sleepness-nights-supporter of Virtue. Owner of the 1000th comment of Daidalus and 1943th comment of Gradius! Owner of the 300th comment of Carda! -Taught Gradius all his laming skills
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Mindrith Pride - Student 
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"'Reckless indifference' Under the plans, killers who intended to cause their victims "serious harm" but not to kill would be prosecuted for second degree murder and would therefore not face a mandatory life sentence. " well tbh that just makes me sick... for instence someone who puts a gun to someones head and pulls the trigger gets a life sentence, whereas someone who tortuers a person over a long period of time, will get a much shorter sentence? that really doesnt seem right  . although im not sure if that happens already i dont really know the laws on sentences atm _______________ [proud owner of talions 200th, 700th,1111th coment AND 1400th , DJK's 3001th coment! , saz's 400th coment! liso's 800th coment! Kitmitsu Aratan's 1200th comment! Cau's 100th comeent, Alexander's (aka CC) 210th, 888th and 2200th comments! Moriarti's 800th comment , Piccolo's 2000th comment! lirael's 505th comment , Quom Farlance's 120th comment, Alexander's 1800th comment , Eica's 1400th comment , Wicek's 3200th comment lady C's 999th comment, Echuu's 1100th comment, Takaru's 325th and 400th comment, Redeye's 200th comment picc's 3600th comment, Ostith's 50th comment, Elmo's 555th comment] |
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darkskye - Student 
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Quote: An eye for an eye. ... will make us all blind - Mahatma Ghandi _______________ "Out the cat5, through the router, down the T1, over the leased line, off the bridge, past the firewall... nothing but 'Net." Chevron 1 is lit up Proud donator of the forum's 99000th comment
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Buzz - Student 
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Let us know when the opponents start the "America does it so it must be bad" routine. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Tallepyon - Student 
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An eye for an eye. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff
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to be honest i don't think capital punishment works very well.. but adding in the degrees might be worthwhile. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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