| An Inconvient Truth | |
|
{JF}Jesse - Student |
Any one else seen Al Gore's documentary? If you haven't I recommend that if you have some free time and you're bored go see it, it really put some things in perspective and cleared some stuff up about global warming. If you have seen it, what did you think? |
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! |
| Comments |
|
Buzz - Student 
|
Quote: Soooo many responses lol. Where to begin?First I would like to say that I do not believe global warming is the end of the world though I do believe it will be a major catastrophe. Second of all some people are trying to say we have recorded the temperature for only 400 years. This just demonstrates your lack of understanding =/. Scientists have other ways of determining the temperature through patterns and composition in ice and other such things on the glaciers, temperatures dating back thousands of years beyond the ice ages. And it is accurate, just because you say it isnt doesnt mean that it isn't accurate. We have only recorded temperatures for the last 400 years or so. That's hard data, as in we were there to collect it. That was when we started keeping records of temperature readings. These also are dependent on the fact that even as those 400 years have gone on we've increased the locations we've been recording temperatures? Or can you tell me what the average temperature for the area of Chicago was for the year 1700? I know about the ice core sampling and other points such as that. Those again are dealing with those particular locations. And when you look at a graph showing the past 400,000 years they draw it as a line graph and I just have to laugh at that. The data points look something like this: . . . . . . . . . . . . ............ Killer job there. Quote: The following is taken from:http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/hockeystickFAQ.html Ahhh, the good ol' hockey stick? You've seen the graph before right I take it? Ever seen it when they leave the error range showing? Quote: But despite their differences, they still yield the same essential conclusion: the past 10- to 20-year period was likely the warmest of the past millennium. What about the past two milleniums? Or the past three? 10? 100? Quote: The 'short term' temperature data you keep accusing people of having is conservative propaganda, we can find the temperatures from dates way back in time. When the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and you're only looking at the past 1000 years, it is short term. When you're looking at 400,000 years its still not a long term basis. And even with the collected points, we're not at the highest point yet. Quote:
Quote: Also what the majority of scientists believe doesn't matter I never said scientists, I said experts, as in people that study global warming. And what They say do matter, considering that they actually study the data unlike the general public such as youself =/. Yes people that study global warming, typically arriving at the point that humans are to blame, and now we must show how we are to blame. Its an agenda again. Its also an appeal to authority. Not all the experts are in agreement. Quote: As for the argument to use DDT----I laugh again. It kills the surrounding wildlife, not just mosquitoes, and the biggest reason it is banned is that it doesn't go away easily. You release that stuff and you seriously contaminate areas. Oh, and just to clarify, DDT can affect humans too. Know all that. The point still stands It was an effective pesticide Quote: As for the insect thing, it is hypothesized that if temperatures increase, mosquitoes will move into more northern regions, increasing the chance of diseases being spread. that is all I'm saying, and just because one group of mosquitoes is not multiplying does not disprove the whole theory. But if it isn't happening then it does. Quote: As for the sheep, its a funny thing to think about but kinda insignificant.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita These are in metric tons, so 50 pounds seem kinda small even if millions of em are doing it. Also I'm not just using one source to back up these arguments, hence why I am giving plenty of sites, I dunno if any of you are looking at them but they are there. Using wikipedia as a source is garbage. Quote: I'll check back to see where this debate has headed in a few hours  . I enjoy it and I hope I'm not causing any hard feelings.....just defending my beliefs. How about answering some of the questions asked next time? There are several, and you skipped them all. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
{JF}Jesse - Student |
Soooo many responses lol. Where to begin?First I would like to say that I do not believe global warming is the end of the world though I do believe it will be a major catastrophe. Second of all some people are trying to say we have recorded the temperature for only 400 years. This just demonstrates your lack of understanding =/. Scientists have other ways of determining the temperature through patterns and composition in ice and other such things on the glaciers, temperatures dating back thousands of years beyond the ice ages. And it is accurate, just because you say it isnt doesnt mean that it isn't accurate. The following is taken from:http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/hockeystickFAQ.html 4. Is there legitimate scientific debate about the accuracy of the hockey stick graph? Beginners guide to hockey stick Yes, but mainly about the details, not the essential point. Temperature fluctuations that predate written records are preserved in natural archives (e.g., tree rings, ice cores, boreholes) with various time periods (e.g., seasonal, annual, decadal). The scientific discussion has focused on the best statistical method for combining these various records to accurately capture temperature fluctuations for the Northern Hemisphere. As is typical of the scientific process, independent teams of researchers have worked to reproduce the results of the "hockey stick" by using their own approaches and even by using slightly different data. These studies sometimes produce slightly higher temperature fluctuations in the past compared with the initial study. But despite their differences, they still yield the same essential conclusion: the past 10- to 20-year period was likely the warmest of the past millennium. The 'short term' temperature data you keep accusing people of having is conservative propaganda, we can find the temperatures from dates way back in time. Quote: Also what the majority of scientists believe doesn't matter I never said scientists, I said experts, as in people that study global warming. And what They say do matter, considering that they actually study the data unlike the general public such as youself =/. As for the argument to use DDT----I laugh again. It kills the surrounding wildlife, not just mosquitoes, and the biggest reason it is banned is that it doesn't go away easily. You release that stuff and you seriously contaminate areas. Oh, and just to clarify, DDT can affect humans too. As for the insect thing, it is hypothesized that if temperatures increase, mosquitoes will move into more northern regions, increasing the chance of diseases being spread. that is all I'm saying, and just because one group of mosquitoes is not multiplying does not disprove the whole theory. As for the sheep, its a funny thing to think about but kinda insignificant.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita These are in metric tons, so 50 pounds seem kinda small even if millions of em are doing it. Also I'm not just using one source to back up these arguments, hence why I am giving plenty of sites, I dunno if any of you are looking at them but they are there. I'll check back to see where this debate has headed in a few hours . I enjoy it and I hope I'm not causing any hard feelings.....just defending my beliefs. |
|
Raziel Anjelis - Student 
|
Out of the frying pan into the lightsaber eh? _______________ Proud owner of El Vee For's 200th Comment, and Wicek's 2600th comment  DaMi3N's 400th, Trad Redav's 666th.
|
|
Mindrith Pride - Student 
|
im not sure if this has been said yet, and i cant be bothered to look, but some scienctists believe that global warming is the only thing stopping us from having another ice age. right now. cuz according to them we are due another one right now  _______________ [proud owner of talions 200th, 700th,1111th coment AND 1400th , DJK's 3001th coment! , saz's 400th coment! liso's 800th coment! Kitmitsu Aratan's 1200th comment! Cau's 100th comeent, Alexander's (aka CC) 210th, 888th and 2200th comments! Moriarti's 800th comment , Piccolo's 2000th comment! lirael's 505th comment , Quom Farlance's 120th comment, Alexander's 1800th comment , Eica's 1400th comment , Wicek's 3200th comment lady C's 999th comment, Echuu's 1100th comment, Takaru's 325th and 400th comment, Redeye's 200th comment picc's 3600th comment, Ostith's 50th comment, Elmo's 555th comment] |
|
Raziel Anjelis - Student
|
Debate's R Us strikes again =o _______________ Proud owner of El Vee For's 200th Comment, and Wicek's 2600th comment DaMi3N's 400th, Trad Redav's 666th.
|
|
El Vee For - Student 
|
Quote:
Quote: If our heads are up our collective asses I'd say that was a given. humanity has its head up its own ass. Wake up and smell the futility wake up and smell the methane more like _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” |
|
Buzz - Student
|
{contributes a small toot to global warming} _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
Menaxia - Student 
|
Quote: humanity has its head up its own ass. Wake up and smell the futility wake up and smell the methane more like _______________ This is not the place to look for me This comment was edited by Menaxia on Jun 21 2006 06:29pm. |
|
El Vee For - Student 
|
Global Warming doesn't effect me, I don't live on earth. _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” |
|
Bubu - Hubbub 
|
Most of what I wanted to say has already been said by Buzz and Menaxia, so let me just add this: It's so very typical of human beings to attribute everything that happens to our activities. We completely ignore other major factors which we live with every day and therefore take for granted. We are arrogant and self centered. Oh it's a little warmer than it was 50 years ago? The first thing we think of as the cause is the CO2 we release into the atmosphere. Fine, it does contribute. But there are tons of other factors. For example, just to put this all into perspective, let's think about sheep. There are over 200 million sheep in Australia and New Zealand alone. Each sheep releases more than 50 pounds of methane (a greenhouse gas) a year. Now add all that up and it overshadows anything produced by the small human population in the area. What about China? Nobody ever talks about sheep and cows in China because they have so many people, but they also have 300 million sheep. I'm not saying sheep farts are the cause of global warming here. I'm merely trying to illustrate the fact that we don't know squat about it. We've only been recording temperatures for 400 years or so and as far as astronomers can tell, the heating up is due to higher outputs of solar energy. And politics? Who the hell cares? You're making it look like GLOBAL warming only affects Democrats and Republicans in the USA. To me, this entire issue is a perfect example of how humanity has its head up its own ass. Wake up and smell the futility. _______________ make install -not war |
|
Buzz - Student
|
Another question: Does the movie refer to the glacier retreat on Mount Killimanaro? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
Menaxia - Student
|
I would like to say that Jesse - you've not studied vector-bourne diseases or climate change. You are basing your entire argument on one piece of propoganda that has an extremely transparent motive. And as Buzz has said, weather records only go back 350 years. So when the guy on the TV after the news says omg hottest/coldest/wettest on record - it means diddly-squat. _______________ This is not the place to look for me |
|
Buzz - Student
|
Quote: Well first of all, I don't know if the insect that carries malaria is one of the ones Gore mentions(my memory can't remember every point in a 2 hour documentary =)) as for believing the media I do believe that insects that carry these diseases are on the rise. As the temperature goes up they can come out faster and live longer and reproduce better, such as, in general, mosquitoes Mosquitoes are the ones that carry malaria. And for their increase in numbers? Ever hear of DDT? Its about the most effective pesticide out there and environmentalists are trying as hard as possible to get it banned worldwide. Quote:
Quote: Climate change is not a new thing. It is a natural process that has been taking place throughout the entire 4.5 billion year history of this planet. I thought so too before I went to go see the movie. That is the attitude that exxon mobil and others have paid 'experts' to disperse into the media, speaking of don't believe everything you hear. If you read the link(I realize it was a rather long post =)) I posted you would see this: A leaked memo from a 1998 meeting at the American Petroleum Institute, in which Exxon (which hadn't yet merged with Mobil) was a participant, describes a strategy of providing "logistical and moral support" to climate change dissenters, "thereby raising questions about and undercutting the 'prevailing scientific wisdom.' " And that's just what Exxon Mobil has done: lavish grants have supported a sort of alternative intellectual universe of global warming skeptics. The global warming fanatics attempt to only look at the most recent data and examine that to make their proof. What they essentially are doing is like waking up in the morning and its 40 degrees outside. 2 hours later its 60. They then start running around screaming that by tonight we'll all be boiled alive. And also what the majority of scientists believe doesn't matter. A chemist isn't qualified to talk about climate change, just like a podiatrist isn't qualified to perform brain surgery. A Urologist maybe, but only on men. The world is very old and we only recently have reliable and accurate data. I'll be more receptive if in 50 years they're still saying the same thing, but not much, because it will likely still have been warmer at some point in the past. Quote: The people and institutions Exxon Mobil supports aren't actually engaged in climate research. They're the real-world equivalents of the Academy of Tobacco Studies in the movie "Thank You for Smoking," whose purpose is to fail to find evidence of harmful effects. Can you demonstrate that these people say what they do because the oil industry supports them, or is oil supporting them because of what they say? Everyone has an agenda, but saying that the earth is fine doesn't get you a headline like saying we're all doomed. Quote: And theres more but I don't want to copy the whole article for you. I saw the charts on the climate changes that have occurred in the past and those occuring today, and the ones todays are lasting 3-4 times longer and are 3-4 times more severe, plus ten of the hottest years in history occurred in the last 14 years. If you don't believe me go see the movie. If you're so sure, then it can't hurt to go see the facts that contradict the lies spun by the oil companies charging us $3 per gallon and raking in record prices. Records in the past are pretty worthless since we haven't been able to record temperatures for very long. And recording them can only demonstrate the change in temperature at that location and not to show a global change. Anything older than when we comes from ice core samples, and we can't get those accurately down to a year by year sample of the past. Quote:
Quote: Tell me Jesse, does Gore's piece of Propaganda talk about increased solar activity? It talks about increased CO2 levels in the atmosphere which trap more of the energy from the sun, thereby increasing the temperature if that is what you mean? If you are going to try to deny that is happening I will laugh because a vast and I mean vast majority of experts acknowledge that CO2 levels affect temperature. For example, Venus has an atmosphere composed of 96% CO2 which traps the sun's energy and causes the extremely high temperatures on the surface. I won't deny that there's increased CO2. No point in doing so. That's only one thing of several that affect the earth. But no I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about increased solar output. That means the sun. That means that the sun is putting out more energy now than it has in the past. We've got a giant ball of gas out there that is responsible for the continuing life on earth increasing its output, and you want to claim that humans are THE cause of the earth warming. How arrogant of you. You probably think Kyoto was the best chance to "save the world" and want to blame Bush and those Republicans for ruining it right? [quotee] As for terming it Gore's propaganda, its hard to consider you a "level headed" republican, when you discount evidence just because some one is a democrat, especially one who has been out of politics for 6 years and has continually said he will not run for president in 2008.(I find it safe to make the assumption you are republican?If I'm wrong correct me) People are democrats because they have seen the light =) <-----------(friendly jab) Don't really care that he's a democrat. He's an idiot and not a scientist. The fact that you want to look at this as political shows one of the problems. This should not be a political issue at all and scientists out there should stop attempting to push an agenda. I give you Carl Sagan and Nuclear winter. And it is propaganda. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
Raziel Anjelis - Student 
|
Aye, chloroflourocarbons, the stuff that keeps our fridges oh-so-cold is contributing to making the earth oh-so-hot. _______________ Proud owner of El Vee For's 200th Comment, and Wicek's 2600th comment DaMi3N's 400th, Trad Redav's 666th.
|
|
{JF}Jesse - Student |
I believe thats what put a whole in the ozone....maybe Im wrong about that tho. Cuz those CFC's put a whole in the ozone and I think one of those C's is chlorine though Im not positive =). This comment was edited by {JF}Jesse on Jun 21 2006 04:48pm. |
|
Raziel Anjelis - Student
|
I thought it was to do with lots and lots of chlorine free radicals reacting with the ozone in the layer, least that was what I was taught. _______________ Proud owner of El Vee For's 200th Comment, and Wicek's 2600th comment DaMi3N's 400th, Trad Redav's 666th.
|
|
{JF}Jesse - Student |
Quote: You shouldn't believe everything you hear/see in the media. Take malaria for instance - the Anopheles mosquitos wich carry the parasite plasmodium falciparum are not infact increasing in numbers. The only thing that's changing is the distribution. There are fewer cases in the sourthern parts of it's range, and more in the north. It's moving north, but the actual net change in the number of cases of malaria is a big-fat-ZERO. Climate change is not a new thing. It is a natural process that has been taking place throughout the entire 4.5 billion year history of this planet. Global warming is not a problem - it is fact of life. To say that humans are causing this 'irrepairable damage' to our world is at best naive, at worst a down-right lie. No indeed we should not make efforts to pollute *crush-kill-destroy* etc, by releaseing as many poisons as we can find into the atmosphere, but may I remind you that the biggest greenhouse gas is in fact H20. You see it every day when you look up to the sky and see clouds. Well first of all, I don't know if the insect that carries malaria is one of the ones Gore mentions(my memory can't remember every point in a 2 hour documentary =)) as for believing the media I do believe that insects that carry these diseases are on the rise. As the temperature goes up they can come out faster and live longer and reproduce better, such as, in general, mosquitoes Quote: Climate change is not a new thing. It is a natural process that has been taking place throughout the entire 4.5 billion year history of this planet. I thought so too before I went to go see the movie. That is the attitude that exxon mobil and others have paid 'experts' to disperse into the media, speaking of don't believe everything you hear. If you read the link(I realize it was a rather long post =)) I posted you would see this: A leaked memo from a 1998 meeting at the American Petroleum Institute, in which Exxon (which hadn't yet merged with Mobil) was a participant, describes a strategy of providing "logistical and moral support" to climate change dissenters, "thereby raising questions about and undercutting the 'prevailing scientific wisdom.' " And that's just what Exxon Mobil has done: lavish grants have supported a sort of alternative intellectual universe of global warming skeptics. Along with this: The people and institutions Exxon Mobil supports aren't actually engaged in climate research. They're the real-world equivalents of the Academy of Tobacco Studies in the movie "Thank You for Smoking," whose purpose is to fail to find evidence of harmful effects. And theres more but I don't want to copy the whole article for you. I saw the charts on the climate changes that have occurred in the past and those occuring today, and the ones todays are lasting 3-4 times longer and are 3-4 times more severe, plus ten of the hottest years in history occurred in the last 14 years. If you don't believe me go see the movie. If you're so sure, then it can't hurt to go see the facts that contradict the lies spun by the oil companies charging us $3 per gallon and raking in record prices. Quote: Tell me Jesse, does Gore's piece of Propaganda talk about increased solar activity? It talks about increased CO2 levels in the atmosphere which trap more of the energy from the sun, thereby increasing the temperature if that is what you mean? If you are going to try to deny that is happening I will laugh because a vast and I mean vast majority of experts acknowledge that CO2 levels affect temperature. For example, Venus has an atmosphere composed of 96% CO2 which traps the sun's energy and causes the extremely high temperatures on the surface. As for terming it Gore's propaganda, its hard to consider you a "level headed" republican, when you discount evidence just because some one is a democrat, especially one who has been out of politics for 6 years and has continually said he will not run for president in 2008.(I find it safe to make the assumption you are republican?If I'm wrong correct me) People are democrats because they have seen the light =) <-----------(friendly jab) |
|
Menaxia - Student
|
Quote: the increase in the insects and such that carries those diseases is attributed to global warming allowing them to grow in number You shouldn't believe everything you hear/see in the media. Take malaria for instance - the Anopheles mosquitos wich carry the parasite plasmodium falciparum are not infact increasing in numbers. The only thing that's changing is the distribution. There are fewer cases in the sourthern parts of it's range, and more in the north. It's moving north, but the actual net change in the number of cases of malaria is a big-fat-ZERO. Climate change is not a new thing. It is a natural process that has been taking place throughout the entire 4.5 billion year history of this planet. Global warming is not a problem - it is fact of life. To say that humans are causing this 'irrepairable damage' to our world is at best naive, at worst a down-right lie. No indeed we should not make efforts to pollute *crush-kill-destroy* etc, by releaseing as many poisons as we can find into the atmosphere, but may I remind you that the biggest greenhouse gas is in fact H20. You see it every day when you look up to the sky and see clouds. _______________ This is not the place to look for me This comment was edited by Menaxia on Jun 21 2006 12:34pm. |
|
Buzz - Student
|
Tell me Jesse, does Gore's piece of Propaganda talk about the increased solar activity? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
{JF}Jesse - Student |
Sorry, but all I see there are people looking to try to disprove something they don't want to accept. For example, Bob Carter, the main 'scientist' in this nice little article has some serious ties to the oil industry, including exxon-mobil. They like to fund him when he says what they want him to say. His main argument is that it is a natural climate change which is bs because I saw the data that shows C02 levels and temperatures and there was indeed a correlation. This isn't a natural cycle, its 3-4 times longer than any temp increase and 3-4 times more intense than any in history. http://www.env-econ.net/2006/04/krugmans_take_o.htmlPeople like good old bob here have been getting funding from all sorts of clever people. http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/index.html Even our governemnt recognizes the problem does exist because a big majority of the experts agree that it exists. 900+ scientific articles on global warming were analyzed by the scientific community and it was agreed it was a problem, 0% disagreed, where as 53% of the 'experts' found by the media disagree that global warming is a problem. Karl Rove, one of Bush's main people, has been quoted as saying that the administration needs to spread doubt about global warming through the media because it threatens the administrations polluting policies. Also one of Bush's little helpers erased the evidence that supported global warming from the official reports because he as the non expert figured that he was more qualified to interpret the environment than say the environment experts. Basically, other than those on the payroll of high up executives, experts agree global warming is a problem. I realize this is rather wordy and I apologize but when I started researching this I just kept finding stuff and it seemed necessary to include it all to support my point. |
|
Buzz - Student
|
Bubu has it hit right on the head. Al Gore and his Manbearpig have taken their lessons well from the Michael Moore school of "documentaries" _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
Bubu - Hubbub
|
Food for thought. _______________ make install -not war |
|
{JF}Jesse - Student |
its funny you mention that, the increase in the insects and such that carries those diseases is attributed to global warming allowing them to grow in number =), which is in the documentary. And if global warming takes place as they say it will, hundreds of millions of people will be displaced. Global warming is in some ways the most dangerous thing we face =/. As for the 'not much i can do', no offense but everyone has that attitude and thats why nothing gets done. I'm not writing my will either though.....I plan on going til 100 =)...then I die. This comment was edited by {JF}Jesse on Jun 21 2006 02:17am. |
|
Gil-Galad - Student 
|
Quote: With Bird Flu just hopping on by, Sars making a comeback, World War 3 teetering on the edge, nuclear weapons on the average carboot sale, chem warfare attempting an unorthodox return, dangerously high annual increase in murder and crime, drug abuse, use and accessibility and an uncannily low sense of self-esteem for all on this planet... I think i'll just sit back, eat my sandwich and listen to some music. There isn't really much i can do to stop Global Warming, doesn't mean I wont try, but i'm not going to write my last will and testament quite yet. Theres enough to worry about. Quoted for its wtftruth. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
|
Mic Den Octela - Student 
|
With Bird Flu just hopping on by, Sars making a comeback, World War 3 teetering on the edge, nuclear weapons on the average carboot sale, chem warfare attempting an unorthodox return, dangerously high annual increase in murder and crime, drug abuse, use and accessibility and an uncannily low sense of self-esteem for all on this planet... I think i'll just sit back, eat my sandwich and listen to some music. There isn't really much i can do to stop Global Warming, doesn't mean I wont try, but i'm not going to write my last will and testament quite yet. Theres enough to worry about. _______________ -Padawan of Virtue -Brother of Menaxia, *|irael, Krynn Adept, Majno, Ris Win Juljul, DaMi3N, Beowulf, Dash Starlight, Carrock and Yuken Zalak Bartender at Munes bar. Sir Mic of Nippledom! Proudly beating Wang, since '07. (Crackdown) |
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! |