| Drug War vs. Terror War | |
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JavaGuy - Student  |
I've always thought the "war on drugs" was a lot more dangerous and harmful to our society than drugs ever were, but the current war ups the ante. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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-- - Ex-Student |
All in all both wars will be lost, because no one really cares, a few do, but the vast majority of this world are all assholes and care only for themselves. So nothing good will ever come about from anything again. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Oh and you last post there. Sometimes people have the agenda of just reporting the facts. But you of course think I'm looking for some insidious agenda in all reports right? I mean that's how you think. If someone is always serious then they can never crack a joke. If they're always telling jokes then you can never believe any statement to be sincere. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Java, Your additional newssources have a bit more substance behind them than the original. And aren't just taking the word of a drug policy thinktank. Definitely more believable. Quote: In Iraq we're fighting extremists supported by, and in many cases actually imported from, Iran, Syria and our "ally" Saudi Arabia. Don't forget to inlude Malaysia, Indonesia, The Phillipines and multiple countries in Sub-Saharan Africa. And the Taliban never left Afghanistan. Even on the night we began bombing in Iraq there was a very large strikes on Taliban controlled villages. Quote: Where we really get off track is the introduction of the mega corrupt puff piece that is DynCorp. Essentially a private police force and if you don't know what a private police force is then the best comparison is the "SS" of Nazi Germany. Yeah but that's pretty much how you view the legitimate police force in America, so your view is pretty worthless really. See the first article the agenda is directly in it. "The solution is to bring the narcotics growing into the legal economy." Does newsweek say anything of this type? I doubt it. But Newsweek also has several deaths on their heads, with their false information on gitmo. So their agenda would be to salvage and rebuild their credibility. But I'm clearly just making ad hominem attacks and starting political discussion, and being a wee lass. Ain't that right LV4? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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El Vee For - Student 
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Newsweek Article No doubt they got it wrong: Quote: In Ghazni and in six provinces to the south, and in other hot spots to the east, Karzai's government barely exists outside district towns. Hard-core Taliban forces have filled the void by infiltrating from the relatively lawless tribal areas of Pakistan where they had fled at the end of 2001. Once back inside Afghanistan these committed jihadist commanders and fighters, aided by key sympathizers who had remained behind, have raised hundreds, if not thousands, of new, local recruits, many for pay. They feed on the people's disillusion with the lack of economic progress, equity and stability that Karzai's government, NATO, Washington and the international community had promised. I wonder what Newsweeks agenda is, perhaps to sell copies. pffftQuote: NATO officials say the Taliban seems to be flush with cash, thanks to the guerrillas' alliance with prosperous opium traffickers. The fighters are paid more than $5 a day—good money in Afghanistan, and at least twice what the new Afghan National Army's 30,000 soldiers receive. It's a bad sign, too, that a shortage of local police has led Karzai to approve a plan allowing local warlords—often traffickers themselves—to rebuild their private armies Since NATO is the supplier of this data, their agenda must be misinformation. Hoping to garner more funds from a strapped America no doubt, or the liberal ramblings of a corrupt/selfish body. pfffftIt would also seem that the anti-opium Taliban have changed thier stance on this issue. Perhaps idealogical survival was a higher priority. People will take help from anywhere when they are backed into a corner, this is truly an example of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." as I have already stated. _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” This comment was edited by El Vee For on Sep 25 2006 10:26pm. |
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El Vee For - Student 
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Did we really leave Afghanistan? Well we would have had to actually be there to have left. When Osama Bin Laden was cornered in Tora Bora, there wasn't that many American troops in the theater. Afghanistan was a walk through the park, when compared to Iraq. That is merely my opinion. I expected it to be thoroughly dismantleds soon. LOL Where we really get off track is the introduction of the mega corrupt puff piece that is DynCorp. Essentially a private police force and if you don't know what a private police force is then the best comparison is the "SS" of Nazi Germany. DynCorp employees carry diplomatic immunity. Why do you think that is? I am obligated to not discuss the activities of DynCorp, but not restricted from my opinions of them. The hired guns of DynCorp are mercenary thugs. If you have seen them work then you know, if you haven't seen them work you can not possibly comment. _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Love smilies too! @@@@:^) <--Marge Simpson! And no, I really didn't know what you meant, but sure, we withdrew a lot of troops to fight on another front in the war or terror. I don't see that as an abandonment of the Afghan people, especially since some of them were reassigned to hunt Taliban hiding in the mountains. I don't dispute that the Iraqi people are, by some measures, no better off than under Saddam. They unfortunately find themselves on the front lines of the war against radical Islam, and this is not a war that is going away if, as some wish to believe, we simply withdraw our troops and quit fighting. The extremists are not going to give peace a chance. I do believe that, ultimately, Iraq will be a much better place for being rid of Saddam. We love to bemoan that fact that there's still fighting going on even now that Saddam has been removed. We all seemed to think that the war would magically end with his removal just like WWII in Europe ended with the defeat of the Nazis. Something to keep in mind, though, is that this did not really happen at all. U.S. troops in Germany were still taking combat casaulties as late as 1949. This was despite the fact the Nazi guerillas did not have a huge international network of support--or any support really--the way the terrorists in Iraq have. In Iraq we're fighting extremists supported by, and in many cases actually imported from, Iran, Syria and our "ally" Saudi Arabia. We can tell ourselves that we wouldn't be fighting them if we hadn't invade Iraq, but in fact we would. The extremists will not be satisfied until we or they are destroyed. Fighting them in Iraq just means we're not fighting them in Afghanistan...or France or England or the United States. The Iraqi people are unfortunately caught in the middle of this, but I do believe that Iraq will be much, much better off if we stand firm and win the war on terror than if we had never invaded in the first place. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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{JF}Jesse - Student |
Quote: We left Afghanistan? Do tell us more! This is big news. You've scooped all the major news agencies. I think you know what I mean  . But I'll rephrase for clarity . We took a vast majority of our troops out of Afghanistan and put them in Iraq before afghanistan was finished.I wish I had a scoop the major news networks didn't And I love smilies |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Quote: In all honesty.....probably the greatest reason the tailban is back is cuz we left afghanistan to go to ________. Fill in the blank. We left Afghanistan? Do tell us more! This is big news. You've scooped all the major news agencies. Quote: I again point out that the region where the Taliban is making their resurgence is in the region of Afghanistan that they orginally came from, as well as the side that borders Pakistan, where additional support for the Taliban and Al Quaeda would easily come from. Sorry Buzz, but I don't see how that relates to anything. Did you expect the Taliban's resurgence to happen in the places where it had been weakest in the first place? Common sense suggests that the Taliban would experience a resurgence where it had the most support in the first place and, yes, that the destruction of cash crops by the enemies of the Taliban is going to make the growers of those crops more friendly to the Taliban. Machiavelli was on point with that one long before this conflict even began. I find this particular person's testimony believable. The Taliban, notwithstanding its official anti-opium stance, profited from the drug trade, and it continues to do so now: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/17/news/poppy.php Quote: The Taliban, too, are promoting the growing as a source of income for their operations. They have spread leaflets ordering farmers to grow poppy. In Helmand, the Taliban have forged an alliance with the drug smugglers, providing protection for drug convoys, and are carrying out attacks to keep the government away and the poppy flourishing, said the new governor of Helmand, Mohammad Daud. This does not mean that the Taliban is suddenly pro-opium. No doubt if the Taliban somehow could return to power with arms bought through drug profits, its first move would be to imprison and kill the drug dealers. The farmers, however, are faced with the reality of the here and now and are well aware that the Taliban is not returning to power. I think we're eventually going to have to decide whether we want to spend our limited resources trying to stop people from consuming things we think sinful or hunting down the people who want to kill us. The Economist weighs in with a couple interesting remarks: Quote: America also issued an American security company, DynCorp, with a $50m contract to train an Afghan eradication team. The team's 400 members got two weeks' training—long enough, says one diplomat, “to learn how to drive a tractor and point a gun.” I have a fair amount of experience with Third World cops, i.e. gangsters with badges in most cases, and the two weeks training they get from Americans doesn't sound very reasuring, no matter how wholesome their web site looks. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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{JF}Jesse - Student |
In all honesty.....probably the greatest reason the tailban is back is cuz we left afghanistan to go to ________. Fill in the blank. |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: Yeeh real sinster. I again point out that the region where the Taliban is making their resurgence is in the region of Afghanistan that they orginally came from, as well as the side that borders Pakistan, where additional support for the Taliban and Al Quaeda would easily come from. Quote: The article presents no proof. Other than the testimony of one poor soul, but we should just discount that because she has an agenda? Ah see you have been misled, which is the goal of the tactic. Read the article again, Ms. Niazi does not provide reasoning why the Taliban is back, only that they are and she is in fear for her life. She makes no mention of this return due to the drug trade. Its also pretty obvious from the article that what the Taliban is doing would not be making friends from their actions with the exception of the drug warlords or at least as would be claimed by the article but I remain very skeptical. Quote: What are you defending here? What position do you hold? Are you playing devils advocate? I think what I'm doing here would be fairly obvious. In fact blatantly obvious. Quote:
Quote: Can you prove that the Taliban isn't rallying support from the burning of crops? I have long thought that it would, but I do think the burden of proof lies in my camp, not the other. And that is true. The burden of proof is not on my view. This article presents two facts and then claim they are interconnected without evidence. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Quote: Can you prove that the Taliban isn't rallying support from the burning of crops? I have long thought that it would, but I do think the burden of proof lies in my camp, not the other. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Another point is that Islamic extremists have a long, long history of comprising their their, um, "principles" if you can call them that, in order to harm Western civilization. If the burning of opium crops makes Afghans angry at the U.S., the Taliban is of course going to be the opium farmer's best friend in the world, no matter what they thought of him before the U.S. invasion. Whether that friendship would survive a U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan is highly questionable, I concede, but I have personal experience living among subsistence farmers and can tell you they are a lot more concerned with surviving until next month than they are with the political ramifications years in the future of their actions today. The opium farmers want a friend now, today, and in their eyes I expect the Taliban is that friend, the enemy of their enemy as Qui Gon put it. For the record, though, Buzz is right about the Taliban cracking down on Opium production during its rule. I think we need to bear in mind, though, that the only way to "win" the drug war is to employ the same Draconian methods the Taliban used--and even they enjoyed only limited success, as Afghanistan was even then the world's leading supplier. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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El Vee For - Student
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Even More!! Sinister I tell you!!! LOL _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” This comment was edited by El Vee For on Sep 14 2006 12:55am. |
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El Vee For - Student
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More on DynCorp Quote: Equipping Afghanistan for the Future A capable, professional police force operating under responsible civilian authority is essential to the growth and development of any democratic system. After more than 25 years of civil war and violent dictatorship in Afghanistan, the country has to completely rebuild its police force. The U.S.-led coalition in Afghanistan is providing training in modern policing methods, with Germany in the lead. DynCorp International is proud to have been chosen by the U.S. Department of State to support the substantial American contribution to that effort, with the goal of increasing police presence, improving public security, and supporting the rule of law in Afghanistan. Under the direction of the Department of State, we work with Afghanistan National Police, Border Police, and Highway Patrol, focusing on basic skills training for existing police and basic training for lower-ranked police, and we provide assistance in reforming and equipping the police. Afghan police receive both general police training and training that is specific to their policing specialty. source _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” |
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El Vee For - Student
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LOL Okay, DynCorp and I go way back Dyncorp I was in Haiti at this time, with the US Army. I know what they do and how they do it. There is no way on earth you can possibly know more about their activity in Haiti than I do. You were 14 at the time. As for proof, or the presentation of evidence, that the burning of opium crops cause the population to turn to the Taliban. You are right. The article presents no proof. Other than the testimony of one poor soul, but we should just discount that because she has an agenda? Thats your argument? Let me tell you as a matter of fact, that the people of Vietnam turned to the Viet Cong for support/protection when American troops/planes napalmed rice patties. Same thing, different country, same results. What are you defending here? What position do you hold? Are you playing devils advocate? Can you prove that the Taliban isn't rallying support from the burning of crops? For real though Jesse said it best ...the enemy of my enemy, is my friend. _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” This comment was edited by El Vee For on Sep 13 2006 11:25pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote:
Quote: The reason the drugs have resurfaced is that its the easiest way for people to make money. They are poor and are trying to make a living. The 'war on drugs' is a good idea b/c stopping the flow of drugs would cut off a lot of the money terrorists worldwide would receive. Where the United States goes wrong is that they don't provide any real alternative to the afghan people. We just destroy their crops and leave them with nothing. Which I guess I could see them getting mad at the U.S. for and thereby turning to the Taliban but I dunno. The enemy of my enemy.....eh who knows. Hmmm, kinda like napalming rice patties because one out of hundred is used as a weapons cache.In the article the point is made that the Afghan people see "refuge" in the Taliban. The Taliban will do whatever it has to to gain public support. Interesting times we live in. Garbage. The article provides no evidence for connections between the burning of opium farms and the increase in Taliban activities. The article demonstrates bias and underhanded tactics in several areas. First is the face of the poor victim that they begin it with as well as end it. There is also the talk of the corporation Dyncorp. No explanation of who they are or what they do, only that they are "sinister." About the only real facts this article gives is the Taliban is coming back, and the military is burning opium farms. The Taliban is also reemerging where? In the Southern region. The region they originally controlled. Also the region that shares its border with Pakistan. Loose on facts with an attempt to push an agenda, that's all this is. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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El Vee For - Student
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Quote: The reason the drugs have resurfaced is that its the easiest way for people to make money. They are poor and are trying to make a living. The 'war on drugs' is a good idea b/c stopping the flow of drugs would cut off a lot of the money terrorists worldwide would receive. Where the United States goes wrong is that they don't provide any real alternative to the afghan people. We just destroy their crops and leave them with nothing. Which I guess I could see them getting mad at the U.S. for and thereby turning to the Taliban but I dunno. The enemy of my enemy.....eh who knows. Hmmm, kinda like napalming rice patties because one out of hundred is used as a weapons cache.In the article the point is made that the Afghan people see "refuge" in the Taliban. The Taliban will do whatever it has to to gain public support. Interesting times we live in. _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” |
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{JF}Jesse - Student |
The reason the drugs have resurfaced is that its the easiest way for people to make money. They are poor and are trying to make a living. The 'war on drugs' is a good idea b/c stopping the flow of drugs would cut off a lot of the money terrorists worldwide would receive. Where the United States goes wrong is that they don't provide any real alternative to the afghan people. We just destroy their crops and leave them with nothing. Which I guess I could see them getting mad at the U.S. for and thereby turning to the Taliban but I dunno. The enemy of my enemy.....eh who knows. |
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Buzz - Student
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And they were also against women holding actual jobs and showing their faces. They're an organization very proactive in their methods of dealing with things. They don't just simply shut stuff down, they kill those running it. They were cutting the poppy seed production. After we kicked them out, there were news headlines about how opium production had increased since removing the taliban from power. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Quote: It could almost be believed except for the problem that the Taliban was also against opium farms. The Taliban was against the use of opium, to be sure. My understanding is that they got a fair amount of their financing from the sale of it to us infidels, but I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the matter. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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El Vee For - Student
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The most noteworthy point of the article is why can't we get these opium farmers to sell their product legally, the way that Turkey does? What is the political motivation for not allowing that? _______________ “Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.” |
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Buzz - Student
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Java, I do think that is complete and utter BS. It could almost be believed except for the problem that the Taliban was also against opium farms. So to claim that the anti drug stance of the US would cause a resurgence of the anti drug taliban(who was actually more successful at reducing opium farms) is pretty ludicrous. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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