| Religion Convo | |
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Shar - ex-Student  |
So i had just finished writing my essay on the downfall of christianity when i notice Monk is online :p Following Convo Ensues
Masa Karasu says: sup Masa Karasu says: youre a christian right ? don't start a band... says: yup Masa Karasu says: so i assume youre against homosexuality ? don't start a band... says: the sin not the sinners Masa Karasu says: ahh Masa Karasu says: and also you are pro slavery `? don't start a band... says: no... Masa Karasu says: Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44 don't start a band... says: lol, planned, nice try Masa Karasu says: i also assume you believe women are inferior ? don't start a band... says: men lead, that doesn't mean abusing or lowering women. men lead the family while women support them and both become one, basically Masa Karasu says: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. - 1 Corinthians 14 And: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authori don't start a band... says: gj, you copy and pasted someone's argument, what are you saying? Masa Karasu says: im not copying anyones argument besides gods. don't start a band... says: well if you agree with God, then there's not really a reason to tell me these things unless you're trying to teach me, which i think you're not. unless you're trying to make a point don't start a band... says: and thus don't agree with God don't start a band... says: which is always a sticky situation for a person Masa Karasu says: i ofc don't agree with god since im making theese comments Masa Karasu says: just wondering if you do = don't start a band... says: i trust God yes. the slave part you're confused on because it's old testament, whereas with the new testament all men are freed from the power of sin by Jesus; gentiles and Jews. which i think i remember remarks being made about physical slavery ending with that as well. though i could be wrong Masa Karasu says: so youre saying only certain parts of the bible counts ? don't start a band... says: if you understood, rather than simply read, the Bible, you'd know what i mean by that don't start a band... says: the New Testament is all about Jesus coming to earth and thus forming a new covanent with man; as opposed to that which was made in the Old Testament through Moses and Abraham and such Masa Karasu says: ahh then lets use a jeus quote don't start a band... says: just like Jesus healed on the Sabbath Masa Karasu says: humm Masa Karasu says: so jesus is all love ? Masa Karasu says: for everyone or only christians = don't start a band... says: equals what? Masa Karasu says: = equals shar missing the question mark button Masa Karasu says: also the religion seems to only be for a certain race Masa Karasu says: Matthew 15:22-26 we find this telling conversation: A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel Masa Karasu says: " The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." don't start a band... says: Jesus loves all. that's what Acts is all about; where it's revealed to Paul that Jesus came to die for Jews and gentiles alike don't start a band... says: and thus he takes the message to the Gentiles, specifically the Greeks Masa Karasu says: so how do you explain him not helping the woman ? don't start a band... says: let me check it quick Masa Karasu says: just scroll up. don't start a band... says: the Bible is all about context, it's the argument of fools that pulls out little parts of the Bible to make a point and doesn't observe the cultural backing, the surrounding passages and scene Masa Karasu says: ahh so what was the backing Masa Karasu says: thought jesus loved everyone. don't start a band... says: k, you're confused don't start a band... says: that's not Matt. 15:22-26 don't start a band... says: lol Masa Karasu says: oh then what is it ? don't start a band... says: no idea, but Matt:22-26 is talking about Jesus being taken to Golgotha and the time leading up to his crucifixion don't start a band... says: 15:22-26 Masa Karasu says: sec while i check oremus don't start a band... says: lol Masa Karasu says: Matthew 15.22 don't start a band... says: such a foolish world to use its intelligence to try and deny the very God who granted it to them Masa Karasu says: and still not suffer his wrath no matter how much he threatens with it. Masa Karasu says: so it was Matthew 15.22 still why didn't he help ? Masa Karasu says: http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=45510893 don't start a band... says: sec don't start a band... says: and the day of the Lord is coming Masa Karasu says: you do realize saying any part of the bible is not "used" or does not count just makes my entire point since it proves god is wrong. don't start a band... says: ... Masa Karasu says: The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever. [Isaiah 40 verse 8] Masa Karasu says: saying any part does not count anymore Masa Karasu says: means god was wrong Masa Karasu says: and isen't he supposed to be this omnipotent omniscient being ? don't start a band... says: God can't be wrong. because to say he's wrong is to say you have some idea of what "right" should be. and where do you get that but from the fact that God created us with a sense of how things should be, because we're formed in His image. don't start a band... says: He is don't start a band... says: it's foolish of you to know that and not believe it don't start a band... says: but that's the ignorant foolishness of this world Masa Karasu says: still waiting about the woman Masa Karasu says: and if he can't be wrong Masa Karasu says: christianty still supports slavery. Masa Karasu says: and sexism Masa Karasu says: and believes homosexuals should be put to death. don't start a band... says: for their sin don't start a band... says: but Jesus came and delieved justification through His death on the cross don't start a band... says: and freed us from the penalty of sin, and from the power of sin Masa Karasu says: then he cleared out all the old sin Masa Karasu says: what about the new sin don't start a band... says: God is not restricted by time Masa Karasu says: and jesus also states that we should follow gods law or will never enter heaven don't start a band... says: his death purifies everyone for all time Masa Karasu says: For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20 don't start a band... says: and he declares us righteous by his death don't start a band... says: that's what Romans is about Masa Karasu says: ah so people can then do whatever we want and still enter heaven ? Masa Karasu says: still waiting on the woman don't start a band... says: Romans 6 "what shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Masa Karasu says: so then we aren't saved from sin for all time. Masa Karasu says: the funny thing is all the contradictions Masa Karasu says: makes the book kinda hard to defend. Masa Karasu says: so we are back at killing them Masa Karasu says: should you start the jihad or i ? don't start a band... says: ... Masa Karasu says: comeon don't give up yet. Masa Karasu says: there probably are a lot of other contradictions left. don't start a band... says: i think you're asking the wrong person. my answers are coming from the Bible, and i think if you actually took time to read and try to understand it, rather than get sections of wanna-be arguments from online sources, it would clear a lot up Masa Karasu says: well the wannabe sources are quotes from the bible. don't start a band... says: and in truth, if you don't have faith in Jesus after all he's done for you and all the glory in this world, you won't get it from a bunch of facts most likely Masa Karasu says: aren't facts what the world is based on ? don't start a band... says: the wisest man besides Jesus to ever walk the earth said himself that all wisdom is meaningless Masa Karasu says: and he was ? don't start a band... says: Solomon Masa Karasu says: and you do realise that piece of information is also knowledge ? don't start a band... says: and meaningless, because when we die God isn't going to say "so...who was so-and-so?" Masa Karasu says: so we should live like stoics in apparent apathy ? don't start a band... says: either we have put all our faith in Christ and thus been saved from sin, or not. don't start a band... says: you can take it or leave don't start a band... says: it don't start a band... says: but if you leave it you leave life behind don't start a band... says: it's black and white Masa Karasu says: haven't i already done that if i am at the gate ? don't start a band... says: it's right there in the Bible you're quoting Masa Karasu says: actually no since the bible doesn't let me have my own opinion. don't start a band... says: you either accept the Bible for what it is and what it says, or not. Masa Karasu says: its more kill the heathenes. don't start a band... says: "the message of the cross if foolishness to those on the path to the grave" Masa Karasu says: if foolishness ? don't start a band... says: is* Masa Karasu says: ah. Masa Karasu says: also the reasoning you are using atm is called pascal's wager. Masa Karasu says: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ don't start a band... says: so many people try to question God through trying to prove something wrong in His Word, and the truth is there's no argument for me to pose though you look for one. you obviously know the Bible oh-so well if you can find "errors"; and so if after reading the Truth, you don't believe, then what hope do i have in convincing you of what God couldn't? Masa Karasu says: oh its not to convince me don't start a band... says: don't look to me for answers Masa Karasu says: banish that thought yonder. don't start a band... says: look to the Bible Masa Karasu says: its for you. Masa Karasu says: youre still kinda young and haven't wasted your entire life on meaningless ideals and valuegrounds don't start a band... says: i walk with Jesus, my life is more fulfilled if i die in the next second than yours will ever be without Him Masa Karasu says: besides how come god won't heal amputess or feed starving children in africa ? don't start a band... says: who are you, who is anyone, to demand miracles of God; who's already given so much? Masa Karasu says: sec while i find all the ask and you shall recieve quotes don't start a band... says: life is gift enough, Jesus even tops all Masa Karasu says: n Matthew 7:7 Jesus says: Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gi don't start a band... says: you can try. so why are you talking to me and not asking God for those things? Masa Karasu says: w how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! don't start a band... says: hmm...probably because you don't actually believe in Him Masa Karasu says: already did didn't work. Masa Karasu says: then how about you try. Masa Karasu says: since he can grant anything Masa Karasu says: how about a new geforce card ? don't start a band... says: and who are you to say God should do all that you want in your timing? Masa Karasu says: Matthew 17:20 Jesus says: For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. Masa Karasu says: In Matthew 21:21: I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. don't start a band... says: if God gives me nothing he's given me more than I ever deserve Masa Karasu says: The message is reiterated Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. don't start a band... says: and you do doubt don't start a band... says: lol don't start a band... says: how ironic Masa Karasu says: i don't doubt Masa Karasu says: i don't believe. don't start a band... says: black and white don't start a band... says: doubt, or belief don't start a band... says: not believing in God is doubting him Masa Karasu says: not doubt or belief Masa Karasu says: disbelief or belief. Masa Karasu says: so lets do this experiment Masa Karasu says: if this works i will devote the rest of my life to god. Masa Karasu says: In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be: "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will Masa Karasu says: hatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] Masa Karasu says: i would like a ps3. Masa Karasu says: doesn't seem to wkr. Masa Karasu says: work* don't start a band... says: haha, i'm trying to keep up with your foolishness but there's a lot to get through... don't start a band... says: how is a ps3 bringing glory to the Father? you certainly won't do it, and the ps3 isn't going to do it Masa Karasu says: ou may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] don't start a band... says: And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father Masa Karasu says: You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] don't start a band... says: lol don't start a band... says: it's late Masa Karasu says: thats the actual quote. don't start a band... says: read the Bible don't start a band... says: believe it or don't Masa Karasu says: did found it lacking don't start a band... says: but no amount of argument will convince your mind if your heart is so clouded Masa Karasu says: 2dimensional storyline Masa Karasu says: omnipotence lacks any thrill don't start a band... says: but when you face God, maybe you can get in a request for that ps3 on your way down Masa Karasu says: haha.[left][/left] Offline :> _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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From here on out I want to see only responces taking a serious part in this discussion. Anything but that will have consequences tied to it.
Any further posts should also be without sarcasm, condescending remarks and/or phrases, slander och cheap shots. Just a purely factual and ideological discussion. [edit] Permied to make my point more clear unless it isn't. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: This comment was edited by Hardwired on May 11 2007 02:40pm. |
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Sared - Retired 
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No, I'm just saying that there are a lot of hairbrained folks out there that have, and will continue to, set their arguments from standpoints that take nothing less than a degree of 'faith' to believe in. When that fails, they make stuff up. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Buzz - Student 
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For those who think evolution is somehow some kind of religion must also believe that gravity is also some type of religious belief.
Evolution has something that ID/creationism do not have, and that's falsifiability. That's something that has become essential to science. And of course evolutionary theory isn't perfect, but to fill in the holes you need to use more science and not just go "God did it." And evolution will never be more than a theory. Because in science there is nothing higher on the ladder than theory. You might try to claim that a law is higher, but it isn't. That's sitting on a separate ladder apart from that which theories sit on. All you can do is come up with a more sound theory by editing the current one on top or getting another one to knock it off. I think most scientists will tell you that there are holes in evolution, but they're looking to plug them up not just ignore them and expect you to take it on blind faith that they are right. Hell, we only figured out how bees are able to fly in the past couple of years. We were scientifically incapable of explaining their ability of flight. Should we have just gone "God wants them to fly so they fly" and left it at that? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
Quote: Due to its reliance (faith) in many unreliable theories, and many distortions of Reverend Darwin's original thoughts, evolution has become just as much a religion as any other.
Is more along the lines of where I was heading. I should have made that clearer and I'd like to pick my words a little more carefully but I'm a little busy at the moment to argue every point the way I have previously in this thread. That quote above sums up my point best. I haven't bothered reading anything after Sareds post, but if there's more to argue I'm sure someone else can argue on my behalf about why evolution is so full of doggy-doo. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade 
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey 
Jools is my best friend. 
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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LoneWolf_ Mintaka - Student 
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Evolution is as much faith as Christianity. But tell me this, if a Great Dane and a Chow have a puppy ... what is it ? a dog. If a Persian cat has a kitten with any cat out on the street, what is it ? .. a cat. Of course their will be variations in the *Kind* but is it a Cat ? or is it something else ? is it a dog ? or something else.
What is a wolf ? a wild breed of Dog. I forgot where but they actually found a wild cat. Looks just like any other cat you would see. But it is not domesticated. I'm basing all my opinions off of Creation and the Infallible Word of God. Because the word Inspiration literally translates from either the Greek or Hebrew language to mean "God Breathed" Men physically wrote the Bible but as they were led by the Holy Spirit. Who is God if you believe in the Triune Godhead. Quote:
Quote:
You realise evolution was also invented by man, right? Evolution is a load of horse crap. A theory and nothing more.
Yet it is a theory in which its validity is tested through extended observation and experimentation. Evolution alone means nothing without Mendelian genetics to back it up. When the two are combined, then they form a more complete picture of the origin of life (not an absolute one). Religion, however, is a theory that has never been tested to see if anything holy described in it is actually true, and can never be tested. Belief in a theory that can never be proven to be true is called blind faith. On the subject of a proven theory or not I say this in my opinion. In the Conquests of Alexander the Great. *Greek King, who conquerd the known world at that time* Came to Jerusalem, the High Priest came to him outside the city and showed him from the Old Testament book of Daniel that his conquests were predicted before they even happend. He spared the city and moved on. One example of the near 10,000 Old Testament Prophecies. Switching back to the subject of Evolution. If my memory serves right Darwin's book gave some examples of *so called Evolution* among differnt types of Finches. Which in some cases had different colors, smaller wings or bills and on down the line .. but in the end. What is it ? a bird. Again variations in the *Kind* but no physical change from bird to something else. Plus some *Evolutionists* believe that in the different stages you had all the different species co-existing with each other. If that then were true, why don't we see half birds half whatever animal etc. Again, not trying to jump down peoples throats just stating the things I've studied and learned and placing them alongside yours so we can all discuss them. Of course with me I say just take the Bible and whatever question or thing you need to find out and lay it all on the table. I fall back on the Bible because *I, in my opinion* believe in the Infallible Word of God. I know I'm jumping around but trying to keep on topic with everyone. _______________ Honor, still counts for something. Loyalty, is hard to come by. Integrity, is something to strive for. |
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Falor Windrider - Student 
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Quote: I personally believe in a God but not any god of an organized religion. I think the Church(and in other religions whatever the equivalent is) has perverted most of what is written in the Bible, though there are many many many different forms/denominations of even the main 3 religions so what one denomination says doesn't apply to all. But I haven't encountered a denomination yet that doesn't say something to the effect of 'God works in mysterious ways we aren't meant to understand', like when people die, and then they turn around and try to interpret 'him', like when they look at homosexuality. Thats the part that bothers me, that a lot of the fundamentalists interpret what they supposedly are not meant to understand and then they treat their interpretations as fact.
Not to mention that whatever was originally in the Bible was probably changed by the Romans and later the Church to further their own agenda. Jesus, and the prophets of other religions were all right. Organized religion is in such a mess, because, as you said, centuries of followers have twisted and perverted their writings and words to further their agenda, fill their coffers, and complement their own prejudices. _______________ Jedi Knight of the Jedi Order [JO] www.thejedi-order.com This comment was edited by Falor Windrider on May 21 2007 07:54pm. |
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Falor Windrider - Student 
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Quote: You realise evolution was also invented by man, right? Evolution is a load of horse crap. A theory and nothing more.
Yet it is a theory in which its validity is tested through extended observation and experimentation. Evolution alone means nothing without Mendelian genetics to back it up. When the two are combined, then they form a more complete picture of the origin of life (not an absolute one). Religion, however, is a theory that has never been tested to see if anything holy described in it is actually true, and can never be tested. Belief in a theory that can never be proven to be true is called blind faith. _______________ Jedi Knight of the Jedi Order [JO] www.thejedi-order.com |
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{JF}Jesse - Student |
Quote: You realise evolution was also invented by man, right? Evolution is a load of horse crap. A theory and nothing more.
Theres as much factual evidence to back up evolution as there is to back up religion, if not more.  Yes its just a theory, but its not just some crackpot, hair-brained scheme someone came up with...there is a lot of research that has gone into it. Best example I can think of is domestic pets. Dogs, cats....etc all used to be wild...but through selective breeding they have domesticated them....its evolution without the random chance part. Also, Lirael makes a good point(at least I think this is the point you were trying to make so correct me if I'm wrong) but evolution does not necessarily conflict with religion. Many people view evolution as part of God's plan. I think Francis Collins..one of the founders of the human genome project recently wrote a book about that viewpoint.
I personally believe in a God but not any god of an organized religion. I think the Church(and in other religions whatever the equivalent is) has perverted most of what is written in the Bible, though there are many many many different forms/denominations of even the main 3 religions so what one denomination says doesn't apply to all. But I haven't encountered a denomination yet that doesn't say something to the effect of 'God works in mysterious ways we aren't meant to understand', like when people die, and then they turn around and try to interpret 'him', like when they look at homosexuality. Thats the part that bothers me, that a lot of the fundamentalists interpret what they supposedly are not meant to understand and then they treat their interpretations as fact. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council 
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Roman Catholicism is one denomination of hundreds in Christianity. Of course it’s different from the other denominations, just as each denomination is different from every single other. That’s why they are called different denominations.
Job is an allegory; it always was, even in BCE time, understood as an allegory, the same with the creation accounts; they were never meant to be taken literally – that much is obvious from the fact that they are entirely contradictory. There is a strong tradition, particularly in Roman Catholicism on faith based upon reason – Aquinas tried to prove God’s existence through 5 different ways of reasoning based upon logic and his philosophy strongly influences the Catholic Church to this very day. The reason why many religious people now rely on faith rather than this reason is firstly because Aquinas’ 5 ways have been under much criticism and secondly, later, people who have studied religion but who are not necessarily religious themselves have interpreted it as based purely on feeling e.g. William James and Schleiermacher. And thirdly when people such as Luther broke away from the Catholic Church, they put more emphasis on revelation than reason, a tradition which has continued throughout Protestantism. I don’t understand all the fuss about evolution. Perhaps its because only the extremist views get all the media attention which makes people who don’t know about any religion in any great depth imagine that all religious people agree with a couple thousand of fundamentalist Christians mainly in the US. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre |
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Sared - Retired
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Actually I would disagree with you there Xan. Due to its reliance (faith) in many unreliable theories, and many distortions of Reverend Darwin's original thoughts, evolution has become just as much a religion as any other. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
Quote: Infallible? The Bible was written by men. Men who were humanly capable of making mistakes.
You realise evolution was also invented by man, right? Evolution is a load of horse crap. A theory and nothing more. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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Falor Windrider - Student
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Furthermore, religion rests upon one thing to prove its factuality: faith. That means as long as you believe in something, it is certainly true. No need for observation or experimentation, or even contributing a hypothesis for why something happens, all of which are integral parts of a little thing known as the scientific method.
That's why I'm more inclined to find the evolution theory to be relatively correct. That doesn't mean that it is absolutely correct, but rather it provides the most complete and logical explanation through experimentation and observation (especially in the physiological traits of animals ). In essence, evolution is a tested theory that builds the groundwork to a more complete analysis on the subject that avoids the simplifications of Intelligent Design. And, please no one ask why monkeys aren't evolving into humans still. Evolution takes a long time when you're talking about a change that drastic. Plus, evolution is about adaptability. If monkeys can survive in their current environment, why would they need to adapt to survive? If their habitat were destroyed or if they bred selectively, then yes, evolution could occur, but there's a good chance they wouldn't become totally human-like, since the world has changed in the thousands of years since the emergence of humans. _______________ Jedi Knight of the Jedi Order [JO] www.thejedi-order.com |
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Falor Windrider - Student
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Infallible? The Bible was written by men. Men who were humanly capable of making mistakes. Not to mention that the Bible today is probably completely different from its original rendition. Remember that the Bible was used since the Roman days as a weapon to further the personal power of a select few, and could have been easily been edited over the years, for better or worse. My point is: take everything with a grain of salt. Text is never infallible because text can be edited and changed. _______________ Jedi Knight of the Jedi Order [JO] www.thejedi-order.com |
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LoneWolf_ Mintaka - Student 
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I forget the exact reference in the Book of Job. But the Bible states in there that the Earth is round and that it hangs in space.
I probably came in late in the discussion so forgive me if I don't read all the previous posts. But there is a major Difference in the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Christianity, then just Christianity as a whole. This post would be far longer if I delved off into it all. So if I could sum it all up in my personal opinion. The Bible is the Infallible Word of God, can stand by itself against anything man places beside it. May sound like I'm preaching but I only try to keep it to the simple Truth. _______________ Honor, still counts for something. Loyalty, is hard to come by. Integrity, is something to strive for. |
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Sared - Retired 
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On another note, I re-checked a couple books the other day to confirm this.
Quite simply, the Church did not threaten or smack around Galileo because he was heretical or because they did not agree with his findings. They smacked him around because he was an arrogant ass. Most of his findings and heliocentric papers were nothing new. In fact, most of it was simply a reiteration of Copernicus' findings almost a century before, with which the Church agreed with and supported. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Sared - Retired
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FINISH HIM _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council
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lies Buzz all lies!
god has not given you the grace to understand the revelation of such a formula! the veridical, verbal, plenary, infallible version is infact... m = ((E^2 - P^2c^4)/c^4)^1/2 _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre |
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Buzz - Student 
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m = e/c^2 _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Sared - Retired
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Quote: Matter's essence of becoming takes away god's attribute of being, which is required for "being" a "beginning" to everything.
WOAH. I can't tell if you built off of an earlier point here, but please. Slow down there cowboy, can we please have a refresher course on some Laws of Thermodynamics? I would argue that in fact, it would take the power of the divine to create matter. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. This comment was edited by Sared on May 18 2007 12:28pm. |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
Right, if it can't account for a starting point then it's useless to me. The infinite causality point (im assuming this is the one where the creator has a creator who has a creator etc) can at least account for the creation as we know it, evolution is worse than that.
Also, I've never once disputed the intelligence of animals/insects/whatever. They just can't produce what man has produced, and likewise, I doubt man without any instruments can replicate exactly what termites or bees can do. My point is that the complex creations of man were made by man, the intelligent ones at that. The complex creations of animals were made by animals. There are smart cats and dogs and stupid cats and dogs. In the same way I'm sure that the brilliance of bees and termites comes from the most intelligent of their kind, too. It's only logical. I doubt every single bee, termite, ant, spider, fly all have the exact same intelligence across the board within their respective species. btw that last link you posted redirects me to this pink logo. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Well, i am arguing from the standpoint of man's becoming, which is closely tied to the notion of infinite causality and therefore does not even allow for a "starting point". If you consider this, the creation of our contemporary universe is just like i depicted in my analogy; it could not have happened any other way once all the parameters of it's becoming are taken into account - the problem here is, we just havn't done that yet.
Matter's essence of becoming takes away god's attribute of being, which is required for "being" a "beginning" to everything. Instead, it sees god as an effect of something else - development, creation, et al. As i said, within the essence of becoming, the concept of design presupposing an intelligent designer turns out to be rather problematic because you have to consider god as being the creation of something superior (at least in complexity) to him, and this creator having another creator etc etc, ad infinitum. Quote: And as a general note, how many extremely complex creations or achievements of man (or otherwise) have you seen that's been made by those of low intelligence? Hm...
The structure is rather hard to see on this picture, but i'm fairly sure you are familiar with it. Termites etc. Here's a better picture. Oh and, here's an extremly complex creation even a dumbass can make: clickeh. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
Masta - I made the point that I did on the assumption that we both agreed a 'creation' had taken place, implying a creator. You were just disputing that creating didn't equal intelligence, but now you've discarded that completely and moved on to the evolution argument.
Quote: Man is not, but becoming.
See, for your theory of design due to improbable complexity to work, the self as is has to be assumed, instead of the self as continuously becoming, evolving, adapting etc. People ask "what are the chances for our planet as it is today, to just have happened from what it was yesterday?" The question is relatively problematic since it misses out on a few details. A better one would be thus: "what are the chances for our planet as it is today, to have evolved from what it was yesterday?" The answer to that question is 100%, due to the parameters of becoming. What the hell does that even mean? As far as I can tell pretty much everything you've mentioned, including the analogy, is relatively short-sighted. For starters, the question isn't 'is there a chance that the planet has evolved from what it was yesterday?' It's more like 'how did the planet even come to be? Did it just drop out of thin air or did someone create it?' You mention "Just like water going down the drain, the earth had no other place to go or be." You never question even for a second where the earth came from in the first place. This is the problem with the evolution theory as a whole. You are starting at the middle point instead of at the beginning. You can explain how things evolve once they are firmly in place, but never how they were put in that place and by whom. For example, you can say that animals were on earth and evolved. You can't explain where the animals came from, nor even where the earth came from. Instead you argue that now that it's here, its evolving. The theory of evolution is useless as a starting point. Your analogy about the water and sink... I'm not even sure what your point is. If anything, it looks more to support my point than yours. You look at water as the focus of the analogy and say that it had no other way to go, likening it to the planet. My focus is the taps and sink ie. where the water came from in the first place, and to follow the metaphor, where did the planet come from? Quote: Also, i do believe that biology has supplied sufficient evidence of animals being able to gradually increase in complexity, countering the counter-intuitive idea that it has to take a big smart thing to create a lesser one, and not the other way around.
How does that counter the idea that smart things make less smart things, and prove the opposite? So animals were created with the capacity to develop. So? To have created such a creature at all implies that the creator must be infinitely more intelligent than the animal, human, etc. And as a general note, how many extremely complex creations or achievements of man (or otherwise) have you seen that's been made by those of low intelligence? I'm really not sure why you think complex creations can be made by dumbasses. (SEE my last post in response to your idea that creation does not presuppose intelligent design) _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID This comment was edited by xAnAtOs on May 17 2007 01:35pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student 
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To be honest i have no qualms about hurting anyones feeling much like you neither seem to do.
The sig was more a attempt at a witty remark than anything else.  _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: Well according to the very unreliable source wikipedia and a documentary i once saw on him he was afraid of the vatican after galileo.
And it perfectly demonstrates the inadequecy of quoting using wikipedia as a source. The wikipedia entry on Descartes only list one book he did not publish at the time and it claims the reason was because of galileo. It offers no context and no actual reasoning behind this. Following the link to the book in question it again lists the galileo reason as his reason for not publishing. However this entry provides more reasoning. It was a sceintific book using the heliocentric view of the solar system which is what got galileo in trouble. Of course this enty again lists no citation for that information, and actually checking the history of the post, this idea was in the very beginning entry and references for the article was not added for several more revisions. And even these circumstances do not indicate that descartes had any actual fear of the church to cause him to add God into his "I think therefore I am" discussions. Using the garbage of wikipedia it even seems to be that he devoted a decent chunk to the existence of God, and so to claim it was added as an afterthought because of fear is bogus. You have no evidence of fear but you must claim that there was in order to claim that you are right. You're again attempting to force everyone to accept one of your opinions as the starting point to a discussion and we cannot deviate from that opinion. You know, the reason I called your original statements to begin with drivel. Its not a matter of disagreement with me that makes it drivel, since I have called niether sten yuseph's posts nor koyi's posts drivel and I am not in agreement with them. So once again you've posted drivel. See Lirael, and others are somewhat concerned with appearing diplomatic and politically correct and inoffensive. Me, I'm basically interested in being brutally honest, and frank. And frankly that little addition to your signature you decided to post is another example of drivel. You're attempting to show concern with offending people But if you were actually concerned that what you might say would be offensive and are not seeking to offend you would never say it to begin with. You seek to try to play both sides, like you did when claiming to not slander christianity but previously had called it wasting someone's life, and failing at it miserably. Consequently Sten: Quote: That is true how religion does help keep a functioning society in the past and present. That's not a bad thing at all. The point I was making earlier though was to say that, (as I see in most cases), religion was more or less created to explain the unknown. To fill in the gaps science had yet to fill. Eventually it grew as do most things, and as time passed on religion became more and more fanatical. Such as the crusades as an example.
I'm interested to hear what you think of the crusades. What do you know of them. Why were they fought? What was the justification? Who were the ones who fought and what did they hope to gain? I wonder if what you know is of historical merit or from those who seek to rewrite history, and the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition are events that have been having the revisers at it for quite some time. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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That is tru but it requires that people have the insight to see their own wrongdoings. I still prefer my way.
- SHAR _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Hardwired - Retired
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Quote: Sry for double post but just noticed hardwired's response.
You stated as being annoyed by several of the participants of this thread meaning some where out of order while others weren't. Simply saying some people are doing things right and some are doing it wrong doesn't help anyone people can't change if you don't tell them what they are doing wrong. - SHAR On the contrary. Statements like mine serve their purpose well. Those that are guilty of any infraction will in most cases know who they are. In some cases those that are not will also question what they previously wrote. And the end result being an overall improvement of post quality. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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