| Religion Convo | |
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Shar - ex-Student  |
So i had just finished writing my essay on the downfall of christianity when i notice Monk is online :p Following Convo Ensues
Masa Karasu says: sup Masa Karasu says: youre a christian right ? don't start a band... says: yup Masa Karasu says: so i assume youre against homosexuality ? don't start a band... says: the sin not the sinners Masa Karasu says: ahh Masa Karasu says: and also you are pro slavery `? don't start a band... says: no... Masa Karasu says: Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44 don't start a band... says: lol, planned, nice try Masa Karasu says: i also assume you believe women are inferior ? don't start a band... says: men lead, that doesn't mean abusing or lowering women. men lead the family while women support them and both become one, basically Masa Karasu says: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. - 1 Corinthians 14 And: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authori don't start a band... says: gj, you copy and pasted someone's argument, what are you saying? Masa Karasu says: im not copying anyones argument besides gods. don't start a band... says: well if you agree with God, then there's not really a reason to tell me these things unless you're trying to teach me, which i think you're not. unless you're trying to make a point don't start a band... says: and thus don't agree with God don't start a band... says: which is always a sticky situation for a person Masa Karasu says: i ofc don't agree with god since im making theese comments Masa Karasu says: just wondering if you do = don't start a band... says: i trust God yes. the slave part you're confused on because it's old testament, whereas with the new testament all men are freed from the power of sin by Jesus; gentiles and Jews. which i think i remember remarks being made about physical slavery ending with that as well. though i could be wrong Masa Karasu says: so youre saying only certain parts of the bible counts ? don't start a band... says: if you understood, rather than simply read, the Bible, you'd know what i mean by that don't start a band... says: the New Testament is all about Jesus coming to earth and thus forming a new covanent with man; as opposed to that which was made in the Old Testament through Moses and Abraham and such Masa Karasu says: ahh then lets use a jeus quote don't start a band... says: just like Jesus healed on the Sabbath Masa Karasu says: humm Masa Karasu says: so jesus is all love ? Masa Karasu says: for everyone or only christians = don't start a band... says: equals what? Masa Karasu says: = equals shar missing the question mark button Masa Karasu says: also the religion seems to only be for a certain race Masa Karasu says: Matthew 15:22-26 we find this telling conversation: A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel Masa Karasu says: " The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." don't start a band... says: Jesus loves all. that's what Acts is all about; where it's revealed to Paul that Jesus came to die for Jews and gentiles alike don't start a band... says: and thus he takes the message to the Gentiles, specifically the Greeks Masa Karasu says: so how do you explain him not helping the woman ? don't start a band... says: let me check it quick Masa Karasu says: just scroll up. don't start a band... says: the Bible is all about context, it's the argument of fools that pulls out little parts of the Bible to make a point and doesn't observe the cultural backing, the surrounding passages and scene Masa Karasu says: ahh so what was the backing Masa Karasu says: thought jesus loved everyone. don't start a band... says: k, you're confused don't start a band... says: that's not Matt. 15:22-26 don't start a band... says: lol Masa Karasu says: oh then what is it ? don't start a band... says: no idea, but Matt:22-26 is talking about Jesus being taken to Golgotha and the time leading up to his crucifixion don't start a band... says: 15:22-26 Masa Karasu says: sec while i check oremus don't start a band... says: lol Masa Karasu says: Matthew 15.22 don't start a band... says: such a foolish world to use its intelligence to try and deny the very God who granted it to them Masa Karasu says: and still not suffer his wrath no matter how much he threatens with it. Masa Karasu says: so it was Matthew 15.22 still why didn't he help ? Masa Karasu says: http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=45510893 don't start a band... says: sec don't start a band... says: and the day of the Lord is coming Masa Karasu says: you do realize saying any part of the bible is not "used" or does not count just makes my entire point since it proves god is wrong. don't start a band... says: ... Masa Karasu says: The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever. [Isaiah 40 verse 8] Masa Karasu says: saying any part does not count anymore Masa Karasu says: means god was wrong Masa Karasu says: and isen't he supposed to be this omnipotent omniscient being ? don't start a band... says: God can't be wrong. because to say he's wrong is to say you have some idea of what "right" should be. and where do you get that but from the fact that God created us with a sense of how things should be, because we're formed in His image. don't start a band... says: He is don't start a band... says: it's foolish of you to know that and not believe it don't start a band... says: but that's the ignorant foolishness of this world Masa Karasu says: still waiting about the woman Masa Karasu says: and if he can't be wrong Masa Karasu says: christianty still supports slavery. Masa Karasu says: and sexism Masa Karasu says: and believes homosexuals should be put to death. don't start a band... says: for their sin don't start a band... says: but Jesus came and delieved justification through His death on the cross don't start a band... says: and freed us from the penalty of sin, and from the power of sin Masa Karasu says: then he cleared out all the old sin Masa Karasu says: what about the new sin don't start a band... says: God is not restricted by time Masa Karasu says: and jesus also states that we should follow gods law or will never enter heaven don't start a band... says: his death purifies everyone for all time Masa Karasu says: For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20 don't start a band... says: and he declares us righteous by his death don't start a band... says: that's what Romans is about Masa Karasu says: ah so people can then do whatever we want and still enter heaven ? Masa Karasu says: still waiting on the woman don't start a band... says: Romans 6 "what shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Masa Karasu says: so then we aren't saved from sin for all time. Masa Karasu says: the funny thing is all the contradictions Masa Karasu says: makes the book kinda hard to defend. Masa Karasu says: so we are back at killing them Masa Karasu says: should you start the jihad or i ? don't start a band... says: ... Masa Karasu says: comeon don't give up yet. Masa Karasu says: there probably are a lot of other contradictions left. don't start a band... says: i think you're asking the wrong person. my answers are coming from the Bible, and i think if you actually took time to read and try to understand it, rather than get sections of wanna-be arguments from online sources, it would clear a lot up Masa Karasu says: well the wannabe sources are quotes from the bible. don't start a band... says: and in truth, if you don't have faith in Jesus after all he's done for you and all the glory in this world, you won't get it from a bunch of facts most likely Masa Karasu says: aren't facts what the world is based on ? don't start a band... says: the wisest man besides Jesus to ever walk the earth said himself that all wisdom is meaningless Masa Karasu says: and he was ? don't start a band... says: Solomon Masa Karasu says: and you do realise that piece of information is also knowledge ? don't start a band... says: and meaningless, because when we die God isn't going to say "so...who was so-and-so?" Masa Karasu says: so we should live like stoics in apparent apathy ? don't start a band... says: either we have put all our faith in Christ and thus been saved from sin, or not. don't start a band... says: you can take it or leave don't start a band... says: it don't start a band... says: but if you leave it you leave life behind don't start a band... says: it's black and white Masa Karasu says: haven't i already done that if i am at the gate ? don't start a band... says: it's right there in the Bible you're quoting Masa Karasu says: actually no since the bible doesn't let me have my own opinion. don't start a band... says: you either accept the Bible for what it is and what it says, or not. Masa Karasu says: its more kill the heathenes. don't start a band... says: "the message of the cross if foolishness to those on the path to the grave" Masa Karasu says: if foolishness ? don't start a band... says: is* Masa Karasu says: ah. Masa Karasu says: also the reasoning you are using atm is called pascal's wager. Masa Karasu says: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ don't start a band... says: so many people try to question God through trying to prove something wrong in His Word, and the truth is there's no argument for me to pose though you look for one. you obviously know the Bible oh-so well if you can find "errors"; and so if after reading the Truth, you don't believe, then what hope do i have in convincing you of what God couldn't? Masa Karasu says: oh its not to convince me don't start a band... says: don't look to me for answers Masa Karasu says: banish that thought yonder. don't start a band... says: look to the Bible Masa Karasu says: its for you. Masa Karasu says: youre still kinda young and haven't wasted your entire life on meaningless ideals and valuegrounds don't start a band... says: i walk with Jesus, my life is more fulfilled if i die in the next second than yours will ever be without Him Masa Karasu says: besides how come god won't heal amputess or feed starving children in africa ? don't start a band... says: who are you, who is anyone, to demand miracles of God; who's already given so much? Masa Karasu says: sec while i find all the ask and you shall recieve quotes don't start a band... says: life is gift enough, Jesus even tops all Masa Karasu says: n Matthew 7:7 Jesus says: Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gi don't start a band... says: you can try. so why are you talking to me and not asking God for those things? Masa Karasu says: w how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! don't start a band... says: hmm...probably because you don't actually believe in Him Masa Karasu says: already did didn't work. Masa Karasu says: then how about you try. Masa Karasu says: since he can grant anything Masa Karasu says: how about a new geforce card ? don't start a band... says: and who are you to say God should do all that you want in your timing? Masa Karasu says: Matthew 17:20 Jesus says: For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. Masa Karasu says: In Matthew 21:21: I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. don't start a band... says: if God gives me nothing he's given me more than I ever deserve Masa Karasu says: The message is reiterated Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. don't start a band... says: and you do doubt don't start a band... says: lol don't start a band... says: how ironic Masa Karasu says: i don't doubt Masa Karasu says: i don't believe. don't start a band... says: black and white don't start a band... says: doubt, or belief don't start a band... says: not believing in God is doubting him Masa Karasu says: not doubt or belief Masa Karasu says: disbelief or belief. Masa Karasu says: so lets do this experiment Masa Karasu says: if this works i will devote the rest of my life to god. Masa Karasu says: In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be: "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will Masa Karasu says: hatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] Masa Karasu says: i would like a ps3. Masa Karasu says: doesn't seem to wkr. Masa Karasu says: work* don't start a band... says: haha, i'm trying to keep up with your foolishness but there's a lot to get through... don't start a band... says: how is a ps3 bringing glory to the Father? you certainly won't do it, and the ps3 isn't going to do it Masa Karasu says: ou may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] don't start a band... says: And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father Masa Karasu says: You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] don't start a band... says: lol don't start a band... says: it's late Masa Karasu says: thats the actual quote. don't start a band... says: read the Bible don't start a band... says: believe it or don't Masa Karasu says: did found it lacking don't start a band... says: but no amount of argument will convince your mind if your heart is so clouded Masa Karasu says: 2dimensional storyline Masa Karasu says: omnipotence lacks any thrill don't start a band... says: but when you face God, maybe you can get in a request for that ps3 on your way down Masa Karasu says: haha.[left][/left] Offline :> _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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From here on out I want to see only responces taking a serious part in this discussion. Anything but that will have consequences tied to it.
Any further posts should also be without sarcasm, condescending remarks and/or phrases, slander och cheap shots. Just a purely factual and ideological discussion. [edit] Permied to make my point more clear unless it isn't. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: This comment was edited by Hardwired on May 11 2007 02:40pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student 
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I do not think he omitted anything due to fear as much as included out of fear. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council 
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Descartes was living around the time of the Enlightenment, after Luther and the Protestant movement. The Church had less control over what was said at the time.
Some people are also courageous - Galileo went ahead and said what he did despite being placed under house arrest. Although his house arrest might have been more to do with him arguing that his work proved the Bible was nonsense rather than the actual work itself. In the first part of 'Discourse on Method', before his cogito ergo sum argument, he rigerously describes how he will argue and use logic. Do you see anything lacking between this description and then how he followed it through with his infamous argument? If so, what do you think he really meant to conclude but was too scared to do so? _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Don't see how that changes anything if he wrote it under the fear of reprisals. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council
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'We seem to be at odds about wikipedia but could you atleast back your opinion with something more substantial ?'
In one of your previous posts you used wikipedia to define 'theological determinism' and i replied pointing out that the definition provided was very ambiguous and thus useless for the purposes of this discussion. You are the one who has yet to provide any evidence for your original proposition that to be christian one must be a fundamentalist christian. 'Don't see your point in posting about ockhams razor for any reasons but to simply have a reason to disagree. ' If I see a weakness in your argument I will point it out. I saw a weakness in your arguement which was that you failed to acknowledge the concept behind Ockham's razor. If you don't people to disagree with you and provide supporting evidence, dont start up a thread looking for a discussion. 'Cogito ergo sum according to descartes demon also requires that you try to take away all things that could not be real. You are left with only your thoughts.' yes, colloquially that is Decartes' conclusion. Norman Malcolm however, disagrees that his conclusion is valid - he argues there is a leap in Descartes' logic. I have read Meditations which was written by Descartes himself. In it, not only does he show how he came to cogito ergo sum and that in his mind, logically followed onto the existence of God. 'I observed that this truth, I think hence I am, was so certain and of such evidence that no ground of doubt, however extravagant, could be alleged by the skeptics capable of shaking it...In the next place, from reflecting on the circumstance that i doubted, and that consequently my being was not wholly perfect (for I clearly saw that it was a greater perfection to know than to doubt), I was led to inquire whence I had learned to think of something more perfect than myself...it had been placed in me by a nature which was in reality more perfect than mine, and which even possessed within itself all the perfections of which I could form any idea; that is to say, in a single word, which was God.' He also explained his reasons for going down this route of thinking, that he had lost faith in the methods of previous scholars, not that he was afraid of any church authority: 'I was studying in one of the most celebrated schools of Europe, in which i thought there must be learned men, if such were anywhere to be found...Of philosophy i will say nothing, except that it had been cultivated for many ages by the most distinguished of men, and yet there is not a single matter within its sphere which is not still in dispute...For these reasons, as soon as my age permitted me to pas from under the control of my instructors, I entirely abandoned the study of letters and resolved no longer to seek any other science than the knowledge of myself, or of the great book of the world.' This is also further evidence why wikipedia is not a reliable source as it does not always provide relevent background information. Here I have quoted from 'Discourse on Method and the Medidations' by Rene Descartes, Translated by John Veitch, published by Prometheus Books, ISBN: 0-87975-526-1 'I don't really see what you are trying to prove with the credibility response. The post was about the fact that he considered the christian opinion of higher credibility. please rephrase.' I'm not sure I can rephrase it in a clearer way but I shall try. You were talking about Descartes, I then moved the discussion on and refered back to your original argument. You have argued that to be a true Christian you must be a fundamentalist. My point is that I think (perhaps a little too optimistically) that all humans have some rationality. You are using your rationality to conclude that the Bible was written by men. Men sometimes makes mistakes. Therefore the Bible might contain mistakes. If you can figure this one out, so can anyone else. Therefore christians can figure this out too and your original argument that true christians are fundamentalists who take the Bible literally is wrong. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 15 2007 06:42pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Rather be prebuscent and with raging hormons than lacking a sense of humour 
We seem to be at odds about wikipedia but could you atleast back your opinion with something more substantial ? I don't really see what you are trying to prove with the credibility response. The post was about the fact that he considered the christian opinion of higher credibility. please rephrase. Will read a bit on qp and then respond about it. Don't see your point in posting about ockhams razor for any reasons but to simply have a reason to disagree. About malcolm and cogito ergo sum. Cogito ergo sum according to descartes demon also requires that you try to take away all things that could not be real. You are left with only your thoughts. What i believe to remember is that descartes was terrified of galileios condemeing by the hands of the vaticans and therefore included that part to not incur their wrath. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. This comment was edited by Shar on May 15 2007 06:08pm. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council
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‘And no wikipedia is a reliable resource as long as the page is citing its references.’
I know I’ve gone on about how facts are impossible to prove before, but here’s the exception that proves the rule: wikipedia is not a reliable source. FACT. ‘Why would a ancient book have more credibility than a living human ? Both have been done by man.’ So if you can accept that the Bible is written by men and is therefore fallible, why can’t a Christian? A Christian is still a human being with the use of their reason, they are not SO different from you that an entirely different set of rules apply. ‘There is no such thing as chance.’ Try looking up ‘Quantum Physics’ in wikipedia. ‘So tru if creationism was brought into schools and the like Flying Spaghetty Monster would also have to be introduced into it.’ To be precise however, one would also have to point out in the syllabus that the concept of a Flying Spaghetti Monster is more complex than say Aquinas’ wholly simple god (although you could also argue it is equally unchristian), thus according to Ockham’s razor, Aquinas’ model is preferred. ‘Descartes was a french philospher who wanted to know what we truly can be certain of.’ And later came a philosopher called Malcolm who formulated a disproof of cogito ergo sum. I can doubt that I am a being whose essential nature is to think, thus I am not a being whose essential nature it is to think. ‘That is all we can ever know. The only thing you can ever be certain of are your own thoughts.’ Therefore you cannot be certain that only fundamentalist Christians are true Christians. Oh and from the basis of cogito ergo sum, Descartes built back up logically (according to him) to god – if you wanna know how shar, ill dig my copy of meditations out. Staying entirely on topic here, nouns are very important, if you can’t get them right you are talking rubbish. Shar, sometimes you are quite literally talking rubbish, the Shakespeare isn’t funny or whatever you perceive it to be, rather it indicates a troubled pre pubescent mind struggling with immanent raging hormones. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 15 2007 05:19pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: This might sound obvious but how do you suppose -said creation- was created without any kind of intelligence behind it? Someone just took a piss and it turns out to be the whole universe as we know it with all its infinite complexities and marvels? It's like saying any of mans creations were made with no thought put behind them either. Eiffel Tower? Some guy just sneezed so hard it fell out of his ass. You wouldn't believe that any of mans accomplishments were made without any real thought put into them, so why do you believe that things man DIDN'T make were made without any kind of intelligence? Man is not, but becoming.
See, for your theory of design due to improbable complexity to work, the self as is has to be assumed, instead of the self as continuously becoming, evolving, adapting etc. People ask "what are the chances for our planet as it is today, to just have happened from what it was yesterday?" The question is relatively problematic since it misses out on a few details. A better one would be thus: "what are the chances for our planet as it is today, to have evolved from what it was yesterday?" The answer to that question is 100%, due to the parameters of becoming. The planet as it is today could not have been in any other shape or form, as long as you take into account all details of becoming. Conclusively, within the boundaries of infinite causality, creation cannot be, but only evolution. Here's an analogy of the mistakes that the argument of design implying a designer makes: Just like water going down the drain, the earth had no other place to go or be. The argument that design implies a designer, compares the time when the water was in the sink to the time when the water was coming out of the tubed drain. It then goes on to ask what the odds are, that out of thin air, the water would come out in a cylindric shape, without taking into account that neither the sink nor the tubing were there, and that the water had nowhere else to go or be. There can be no other possibilities, once all data of water's and earth's becoming are taken into account. Also, i do believe that biology has supplied sufficient evidence of animals being able to gradually increase in complexity, countering the counter-intuitive idea that it has to take a big smart thing to create a lesser one, and not the other way around. Quote: If your point is that that greater power also had to have a creator, who had a creator, and so on.. then that sounds right to me. In that case, if the christian god bears all the characteristics he's being ascribed to, his creator would be required to surpass them (at least in complexity), and the creators creator of god would have to surpass them again etc etc, ad infinitum. Can you imagine a being infinitely more than what god is?
...not taking into account your correct statement that one of god's attributes is that he's supposed to be the alpha and omega. Quote: That is all we can ever know. The only thing you can ever be certain of are your own thoughts. Descartes didn't doubt far enough :p _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. This comment was edited by Masta on May 15 2007 03:06pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student 
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Sry for double post but just noticed hardwired's response.
You stated as being annoyed by several of the participants of this thread meaning some where out of order while others weren't. Simply saying some people are doing things right and some are doing it wrong doesn't help anyone people can't change if you don't tell them what they are doing wrong. - SHAR _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. This comment was edited by Shar on May 15 2007 03:36pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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I always thought it was "Deus Ex Machina" or is that only for fictional works ?
Why would a ancient book have more credibility than a living human ? Both have been done by man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang And no wikipedia is a reliable resource as long as the page is citing its references. As you can clearly see the bigbang theory isen't just made up there is a multitude of research into it. On the subject of chance creation: There is no such thing as chance. Everything is governed by laws in the same way that a dice roll might seem random but is ultimately controlled by velocity trajectory and angle. Then the question is really to have this happen there must have been something before the big bang since without any laws to govern matter nothing can actually happen. That is unless we introduce the general idea of a "Chaos" from which all things originate. But wait it doesn't end there the possibilites of creation is endless. also creationism as a idea is plausible in this assumption. The problem is what creator. That is actually my main problem with teaching creationism since it has no right to pick a single god or entity out since maybe religions have claimed that their god created everything. So tru if creationism was brought into schools and the like Flying Spaghetty Monster would also have to be introduced into it. But back to the "First Phase" or whatever you would like to call it on creation. As i hope you see from this argument simply because there is no apparent intellect or reason behind something doesn't mean there was not a reason for it turning out the way it did. I believe the world is a equilibrium much in the same way as a equation. Everything can be displayed in math and the one of the basics of math is that = does not stand for "the answer" but equals. Which is to say if one part is increased so must also the other or the statement is false. This is what i believe is the reason for perfect mathematical equation that the world is. On the subject of chaos: Chaos is a thought of a world without laws governing it. This is what i believe is the third theory or atleast my third. That the laws that governs the world was derived from this chaos which existed before the universe as we know it. But there are other possibliltes and tbh there are far to many to name. We have discovered so little of the universe as we percieve it that outside of our knowledge a alien race or entity for that matter could just have created us on a whim. To end this far to long post ill use descartes demon. Descartes was a french philospher who wanted to know what we truly can be certain of. He figured that if everything we percieve as real is just a elaborate ruse of something like a demon the only thing after elimnating all the senses and feeling was our thoughts. That is all we can ever know. The only thing you can ever be certain of are your own thoughts. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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Quote: Which posts are you refering to ?
It's a general statement that should apply across the board. If I wanted to be specific I would have been. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
@Masta:
No I'm actually referring to the hows, not whys. I don't think science is adequately able to answer the hows in areas that count, like how the universe came to be. Theories like the big bang sound as stupid when heard as they are when read in the book of a 'preeminent scientist'. They have no real data on how the world came to be so they make up theories on their own and then act like it's fact. To me that is not only unscientific (in any sense of the word), but self-deluding. That's another example of blind faith - they actually believe what they're saying is true. In this case their faith lies in probably the least credible sources - themselves. Quote: Creation does not presuppose intelligent design though.
This might sound obvious but how do you suppose -said creation- was created without any kind of intelligence behind it? Someone just took a piss and it turns out to be the whole universe as we know it with all its infinite complexities and marvels? It's like saying any of mans creations were made with no thought put behind them either. Eiffel Tower? Some guy just sneezed so hard it fell out of his ass. You wouldn't believe that any of mans accomplishments were made without any real thought put into them, so why do you believe that things man DIDN'T make were made without any kind of intelligence? Quote: Ockham would ask why push the cause back one further stage to a Prime Mover or first cause when it is simpler to accept the universe was the cause of itself.
In regards to accepting that the universe was the cause of itself, see above.^ Quote: Why can't there be a cyclical chain of causes, or infinite number of causes? To apply a universal theory of causation and then suddenly stop it at ‘The First Cause’ is inconsistent.
That actually makes a lot more sense to me. Theoretically I agree with it, but as long as we've established that the universe didn't just happen 'because it happened' I'm fine with it. So based on that, we can assume that there is at least a greater power responsible for creation. If your point is that that greater power also had to have a creator, who had a creator, and so on.. then that sounds right to me. Anyone who does believe in God or 'the first cause' as you put it - I think their argument is that what makes God, God, is that he has no creator. None of us can say that we are God because obviously we have creators or causes. God's qualification is that he has no creator. In principle that makes perfect sense if you believe in God, but if not, that 'infinite number of causes' theory makes a lot more sense. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade 
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey 
Jools is my best friend. 
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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Sared - Retired 
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If I could, I just wanted to go into further detail about some of the points that Lirael posted about Wiles. Did a paper on his stuff. Got an F cause I loused off. Fun class.
Quote: 1. the concept of God intervening in one situation to prevent evil is a model called deo ex machina. He argues this is unchristian because it denies two essential things: his omnipresence and that all events are 'special'
Deo ex Machina, "God from a Machine", is an idea commonly used and explained from the pulpit. It helps describe how we treat the divine as a sort of vending machine. Hard life? Put in your prayer, select your brand of relief (PS3) and take your change. This would be true of a much more mindless system. Some people are under the delusion that perhaps, because they didn't have enough faith, they should put more into the machine until it eventually vends out the reward we so feverishly seek. Quite simply, they cannot accept 'no' as an answer. Can you imagine a world where we simply received anything that we asked for, anything our hearts whimmed for? Sure, some clergy (both Protestant and Catholic) preach such a 'prosperity gospel'[see note 1], but they have been proven wrong and misled before. Quote: 2. if one is to view miracles as a fortuitous coincidence rather than breaking the laws of nature, the causes of this miraculous coincidence can be traced back to the beginning of time. This implies a god that is completely omnipotent and interferes at a minute scale in all our affairs which denies free will, which despite what Shar might argue, is an integral part of christian theology.
Nothing more than personal opinion, so you can disregard it. It's a simple theory of causality really. "The butterfly who flaps it's wings that moves the breeze that causes a hurricane in Jamaica." That sort of thing. You could also also argue the same way that via formation of the universe several millions of years ago (Yes, I'm a Christian. Yes, I believe the universe is several billion years old.) that God put in the ingredients that would result in such overarching stabilities in matter, antimatter, and other matters. It would be much akin to me sitting down with some food coloring and a glass of water. I want one particular shade of purple, so I put in three drops of the blue, and two drops of red, and so many gogoplex tons of matter and one big BANG and, well, you get the idea. On a more argumentative note: in our day and age, if God DID preform some kind of miracle, I can promise that not a soul on earth would believe it. We're too skeptical. I would almost be willing to bet that there would be many Christians (smart ones, not the ones led around by the nose), that would be on the forefront of any investigation or debunking. Quote: 3. caprice. a god who apparently saves several thousand Jews from slavery in Egypt but not 6 million from the gas chambers cannot be described other than as capricious - also inconsistent with christian theology.
Lirael's got it all covered. When it comes to the end of the day though, believe in something rather than nothing. Stand strong on what you do believe. Most importantly, always question what you believe, so that you might find if it has integrity. Note 1: For more information about the prosperity gospel/"Word of Faith" you can visit here. It is a teaching that I disagree with on many levels, but do not wish to discuss in this thread. Please stay on the current topic and if you would like to discuss it more, we can start another thread. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. This comment was edited by Sared on May 15 2007 06:46am. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Which posts are you refering to ? _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Hardwired - Retired
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I am now officially annoyed by several of the participants in this thread. Stay factual, stay on topic and stay within the above posted guidelines.
Last time I am going to say this. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: This comment was edited by Hardwired on May 15 2007 05:16am. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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don't have it anymore 
also to my love. "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Sared - Retired
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Quote: So i had just finished writing my essay on the downfall of christianity...
Think you could post said essay? In this thread or another? _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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Quote: You don't want a god. You want a nanny. What you think God should be again destroys the concept of free will. You think that God should be controlling every aspect down to the smallest detail. You demand that if there is a God then he be the operator at a computer, and that computer is the universe, unable to do anything without a command from the operator.
Never thought about it like that, opened my mind that small point, Thank you Buzz _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are 
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Buzz - Student 
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You don't want a god. You want a nanny. What you think God should be again destroys the concept of free will. You think that God should be controlling every aspect down to the smallest detail. You demand that if there is a God then he be the operator at a computer, and that computer is the universe, unable to do anything without a command from the operator. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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lezlo - Student 
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well alot of hard words for me so i dont understand everything but i dont know much about the bible story's either.
But why can god save the thousends of jews in Egypt from slavery but he couldn't save them from the chambers. Or why can't he stop a creapy old man (or youngh) from misbusing little children. You live your life to die, nothing is free accept the air and the sun that will go up and down, but still why is it nececery to make mankind suffer so much while you have the power to prevent it. Sometimes when i read the paper or i watch the news on the tely, i can't watch it without seeing/ reading the suffering in the world. (example) a little baby was found dead in the water, man kidnaps a little girl/boy, a youngh man who have never smoked a cigaret in his life dies from cancer. You can't take away that people die, everyone dies. But why will god take away the ones you love and the ones who have a heart of gold while there are people in the world who are selling drugs\weapons to children, or people who will kidnapp them. It's not fair but life isn't fair. There has been to much misery in my live to believe there is someone above to help us nah, There will be someone who had created all of this but there's no afterlife, there's no god who give you a sign when your doing something wrong or helps you find a way out of your problems. God might be there but first let me see him then i will believe I know this is not a replay on you post but this is my oppinion just like my other post... -Lezlo |
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Lirael - Jedi Council
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Shar,
empiricism is about basing your knowledge upon experiences of the physical world. Kant took issue with this because he thought the information derived from our senses are inherently unreliable. Our brain for example maybe imposing restrictions of causality and time upon our experiences as that is the only way it can process the information. Hume pointed out that trying to prove anything from previous experiences (a form of argument called induction) can never provide conclusive proof as the future does not have to follow the past. And I have this strange rule of not accepting proposals from strange boys who can't spell my name correctly. lezlo: There are two main theodicies in response to the Problem of Evil, Augustine's and Hick's. Unfortunately the length of post allows me to only provide a very superficial summary. Essentially according to Augustine the problem of evil is our own fault, we freely choose to cause moral evil. Natural evil is the result of evil (more correctly the privation of good) having being introduced from the original sin - take that as literally or symbolically as you like. Naturally, I don't think many people are particularly fond of what Augustine has to say. Hick, in contrast argues that the suffering is necessary for humans to grow from imago dei to his likeness. In response to the criticism as to why the magnitude of suffering is necessary, he would maintain that it is required for religious ambiguousity - if it were obvious that one religious tradition were right, then acting morally would be pretty meaningless. Also relevant here is Wiles' deductive argument against miracles - you noted that if a god does exist they aren't doing anything about it. Wiles was a Christian theologian and argued that Christians could not believe in a god that performed miracles to stop evil for 3 reasons: 1. the concept of God intervening in one situation to prevent evil is a model called deo ex machina. He argues this is unchristian because it denies two essential things: his omnipresence and that all events are 'special' 2. if one is to view miracles as a fortuitous coincidence rather than breaking the laws of nature, the causes of this miraculous coincidence can be traced back to the beginning of time. This implies a god that is completely omnipotent and interferes at a minute scale in all our affairs which denies free will, which despite what Shar might argue, is an integral part of christian theology. 3. caprice. a god who apparently saves several thousand Jews from slavery in Egypt but not 6 million from the gas chambers cannot be described other than as capricious - also inconsistent with christian theology. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 14 2007 09:07pm. |
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lezlo - Student
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well with al respect to the ones who believe in god. i don't couse alot of peepz are believing in god but still he doesnt have enough convidents (soz for spelling) to help real problems in the world like a complete cure for cancer (well he is god so i think he has the power to do that) and what about all the wars that heapon in this world??? he doesn't do anything about it. The second world war?? with al the jewish peepz who died in the camps?? God didnt do anything about it... well he did he ended the war (by the eyes of a relegious man, becouse they brave soldiers who were fighting the war had a lot of luck and god gives luck sometimes) but he still ended it to late... to many peepz died. so no i dont believe in god becouse he does to little for this world. And yes i know mankind is on the earth to suffer becouse of the forbidden fruit but still to much suffer...
(and sorry for spelling) -Lezlo This comment was edited by lezlo on May 14 2007 07:44pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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On one note please marry me lirail.
On the other please explain what empiricism and the likes are  _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council 
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‘you can't prove a religion wrong until you are
a: Dead. b: Transcend unto divinity.’ A) – In response the logical positivists’ claim that religious language is devoid of meaning, Hick argued that verification is not required for religious language, yet if you must go down that route, you could use eschatological verification as you have pointed out. Although you are yet again dismissing Kant and Hume’s problem with empiricism. B) I’m taking you mean some concept of nirvana here. I don’t think it’s possible to use the state of nirvana or nibbana as any proof, partly because ‘you’ aren’t around to experience it and it the state half way between being and non-being appears incoherent. Even if you could experience such a state Hume and Kant's objections still stand. ‘Everything has a creator. Everything.’ While many ‘pro-evolutionists’ fail to accept is that their theory is unfalsifiable which could render it unscientific, depending upon which model of science you prefer, the argument from motion or a Prime Mover is not terribly convincing either. Ockham would ask why push the cause back one further stage to a Prime Mover or first cause when it is simpler to accept the universe was the cause of itself. Why can't there be a cyclical chain of causes, or infinite number of causes? To apply a universal theory of causation and then suddenly stop it at ‘The First Cause’ is inconsistent. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 14 2007 09:25pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: But to think that the world around us is there purely because it's there is no answer. In fact it's nothing. It's not scientifically reasoned and it's not even blind faith. It's just confusion. Well, i think you are referring to the question of purpose. I'd say science is relatively adept at answering the "how" questions; unfortunately the same cannot be said about the "why" ones, thus leaving pro-evolutionists with a seemingly lack of purpose, an absence of "divine" meaning which a lot of people find rather uncomfortable to accept (and work with).
Also, i do not believe that science will eventually be able to provide answers for -everything-, since i consider that to be scientifically impossible. I can't recall any scientist claiming the opposite neither. Quote: Everything has a creator. Everything. Creation does not presuppose intelligent design though. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Quote: Koyi:
‘The pharisees and religious men in Jesus's day had it all wrong and Jesus could have very easily opened their spiritual eyes and hearts to His Word, but He didn't because they were a very important picture of how God's love doesn't blanket all and how men using the Word of God for what they believe to be right can be very very wrong.’ Couldn’t it be interpreted that rather than Jesus choosing to open their eyes that the Pharisees chose keep them ‘shut’? Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions but would you support a literal reading of the bible and/or the concept of predestination? Lirael I would love to quote the Bible to show you the verses I stem my beliefs from. However, I don't believe it would be either here or there in the true spirit of this thread. I will however direct you over to this thread that has longed since died out. Click If you go way back to the first posts written on that thread you will find that we discussed this topic of predestination/salvation along time ago filled with great scripture posts backing both sides of the discussion. It's is however difficult for me to say the true meaning of anything in the Bible so I can say with 100% certainty that what I had said earlier is correct. It just seems to fit with what I've read and studied in the past. Your post may have more wisdom then my former statement, but I ask anyone who takes the Bible seriously to read my posts with a open mind forgetting whatever they have been taught either by themselves or others. In the end I believe God will be right and we might have shards of truth that we all cling to but are too blind to see the big picture. May God add His blessing to the reading of His Word. Amen. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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