| Religion Convo | |
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Shar - ex-Student  |
So i had just finished writing my essay on the downfall of christianity when i notice Monk is online :p Following Convo Ensues
Masa Karasu says: sup Masa Karasu says: youre a christian right ? don't start a band... says: yup Masa Karasu says: so i assume youre against homosexuality ? don't start a band... says: the sin not the sinners Masa Karasu says: ahh Masa Karasu says: and also you are pro slavery `? don't start a band... says: no... Masa Karasu says: Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44 don't start a band... says: lol, planned, nice try Masa Karasu says: i also assume you believe women are inferior ? don't start a band... says: men lead, that doesn't mean abusing or lowering women. men lead the family while women support them and both become one, basically Masa Karasu says: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. - 1 Corinthians 14 And: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authori don't start a band... says: gj, you copy and pasted someone's argument, what are you saying? Masa Karasu says: im not copying anyones argument besides gods. don't start a band... says: well if you agree with God, then there's not really a reason to tell me these things unless you're trying to teach me, which i think you're not. unless you're trying to make a point don't start a band... says: and thus don't agree with God don't start a band... says: which is always a sticky situation for a person Masa Karasu says: i ofc don't agree with god since im making theese comments Masa Karasu says: just wondering if you do = don't start a band... says: i trust God yes. the slave part you're confused on because it's old testament, whereas with the new testament all men are freed from the power of sin by Jesus; gentiles and Jews. which i think i remember remarks being made about physical slavery ending with that as well. though i could be wrong Masa Karasu says: so youre saying only certain parts of the bible counts ? don't start a band... says: if you understood, rather than simply read, the Bible, you'd know what i mean by that don't start a band... says: the New Testament is all about Jesus coming to earth and thus forming a new covanent with man; as opposed to that which was made in the Old Testament through Moses and Abraham and such Masa Karasu says: ahh then lets use a jeus quote don't start a band... says: just like Jesus healed on the Sabbath Masa Karasu says: humm Masa Karasu says: so jesus is all love ? Masa Karasu says: for everyone or only christians = don't start a band... says: equals what? Masa Karasu says: = equals shar missing the question mark button Masa Karasu says: also the religion seems to only be for a certain race Masa Karasu says: Matthew 15:22-26 we find this telling conversation: A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel Masa Karasu says: " The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." don't start a band... says: Jesus loves all. that's what Acts is all about; where it's revealed to Paul that Jesus came to die for Jews and gentiles alike don't start a band... says: and thus he takes the message to the Gentiles, specifically the Greeks Masa Karasu says: so how do you explain him not helping the woman ? don't start a band... says: let me check it quick Masa Karasu says: just scroll up. don't start a band... says: the Bible is all about context, it's the argument of fools that pulls out little parts of the Bible to make a point and doesn't observe the cultural backing, the surrounding passages and scene Masa Karasu says: ahh so what was the backing Masa Karasu says: thought jesus loved everyone. don't start a band... says: k, you're confused don't start a band... says: that's not Matt. 15:22-26 don't start a band... says: lol Masa Karasu says: oh then what is it ? don't start a band... says: no idea, but Matt:22-26 is talking about Jesus being taken to Golgotha and the time leading up to his crucifixion don't start a band... says: 15:22-26 Masa Karasu says: sec while i check oremus don't start a band... says: lol Masa Karasu says: Matthew 15.22 don't start a band... says: such a foolish world to use its intelligence to try and deny the very God who granted it to them Masa Karasu says: and still not suffer his wrath no matter how much he threatens with it. Masa Karasu says: so it was Matthew 15.22 still why didn't he help ? Masa Karasu says: http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=45510893 don't start a band... says: sec don't start a band... says: and the day of the Lord is coming Masa Karasu says: you do realize saying any part of the bible is not "used" or does not count just makes my entire point since it proves god is wrong. don't start a band... says: ... Masa Karasu says: The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever. [Isaiah 40 verse 8] Masa Karasu says: saying any part does not count anymore Masa Karasu says: means god was wrong Masa Karasu says: and isen't he supposed to be this omnipotent omniscient being ? don't start a band... says: God can't be wrong. because to say he's wrong is to say you have some idea of what "right" should be. and where do you get that but from the fact that God created us with a sense of how things should be, because we're formed in His image. don't start a band... says: He is don't start a band... says: it's foolish of you to know that and not believe it don't start a band... says: but that's the ignorant foolishness of this world Masa Karasu says: still waiting about the woman Masa Karasu says: and if he can't be wrong Masa Karasu says: christianty still supports slavery. Masa Karasu says: and sexism Masa Karasu says: and believes homosexuals should be put to death. don't start a band... says: for their sin don't start a band... says: but Jesus came and delieved justification through His death on the cross don't start a band... says: and freed us from the penalty of sin, and from the power of sin Masa Karasu says: then he cleared out all the old sin Masa Karasu says: what about the new sin don't start a band... says: God is not restricted by time Masa Karasu says: and jesus also states that we should follow gods law or will never enter heaven don't start a band... says: his death purifies everyone for all time Masa Karasu says: For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20 don't start a band... says: and he declares us righteous by his death don't start a band... says: that's what Romans is about Masa Karasu says: ah so people can then do whatever we want and still enter heaven ? Masa Karasu says: still waiting on the woman don't start a band... says: Romans 6 "what shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Masa Karasu says: so then we aren't saved from sin for all time. Masa Karasu says: the funny thing is all the contradictions Masa Karasu says: makes the book kinda hard to defend. Masa Karasu says: so we are back at killing them Masa Karasu says: should you start the jihad or i ? don't start a band... says: ... Masa Karasu says: comeon don't give up yet. Masa Karasu says: there probably are a lot of other contradictions left. don't start a band... says: i think you're asking the wrong person. my answers are coming from the Bible, and i think if you actually took time to read and try to understand it, rather than get sections of wanna-be arguments from online sources, it would clear a lot up Masa Karasu says: well the wannabe sources are quotes from the bible. don't start a band... says: and in truth, if you don't have faith in Jesus after all he's done for you and all the glory in this world, you won't get it from a bunch of facts most likely Masa Karasu says: aren't facts what the world is based on ? don't start a band... says: the wisest man besides Jesus to ever walk the earth said himself that all wisdom is meaningless Masa Karasu says: and he was ? don't start a band... says: Solomon Masa Karasu says: and you do realise that piece of information is also knowledge ? don't start a band... says: and meaningless, because when we die God isn't going to say "so...who was so-and-so?" Masa Karasu says: so we should live like stoics in apparent apathy ? don't start a band... says: either we have put all our faith in Christ and thus been saved from sin, or not. don't start a band... says: you can take it or leave don't start a band... says: it don't start a band... says: but if you leave it you leave life behind don't start a band... says: it's black and white Masa Karasu says: haven't i already done that if i am at the gate ? don't start a band... says: it's right there in the Bible you're quoting Masa Karasu says: actually no since the bible doesn't let me have my own opinion. don't start a band... says: you either accept the Bible for what it is and what it says, or not. Masa Karasu says: its more kill the heathenes. don't start a band... says: "the message of the cross if foolishness to those on the path to the grave" Masa Karasu says: if foolishness ? don't start a band... says: is* Masa Karasu says: ah. Masa Karasu says: also the reasoning you are using atm is called pascal's wager. Masa Karasu says: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ don't start a band... says: so many people try to question God through trying to prove something wrong in His Word, and the truth is there's no argument for me to pose though you look for one. you obviously know the Bible oh-so well if you can find "errors"; and so if after reading the Truth, you don't believe, then what hope do i have in convincing you of what God couldn't? Masa Karasu says: oh its not to convince me don't start a band... says: don't look to me for answers Masa Karasu says: banish that thought yonder. don't start a band... says: look to the Bible Masa Karasu says: its for you. Masa Karasu says: youre still kinda young and haven't wasted your entire life on meaningless ideals and valuegrounds don't start a band... says: i walk with Jesus, my life is more fulfilled if i die in the next second than yours will ever be without Him Masa Karasu says: besides how come god won't heal amputess or feed starving children in africa ? don't start a band... says: who are you, who is anyone, to demand miracles of God; who's already given so much? Masa Karasu says: sec while i find all the ask and you shall recieve quotes don't start a band... says: life is gift enough, Jesus even tops all Masa Karasu says: n Matthew 7:7 Jesus says: Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gi don't start a band... says: you can try. so why are you talking to me and not asking God for those things? Masa Karasu says: w how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! don't start a band... says: hmm...probably because you don't actually believe in Him Masa Karasu says: already did didn't work. Masa Karasu says: then how about you try. Masa Karasu says: since he can grant anything Masa Karasu says: how about a new geforce card ? don't start a band... says: and who are you to say God should do all that you want in your timing? Masa Karasu says: Matthew 17:20 Jesus says: For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. Masa Karasu says: In Matthew 21:21: I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. don't start a band... says: if God gives me nothing he's given me more than I ever deserve Masa Karasu says: The message is reiterated Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. don't start a band... says: and you do doubt don't start a band... says: lol don't start a band... says: how ironic Masa Karasu says: i don't doubt Masa Karasu says: i don't believe. don't start a band... says: black and white don't start a band... says: doubt, or belief don't start a band... says: not believing in God is doubting him Masa Karasu says: not doubt or belief Masa Karasu says: disbelief or belief. Masa Karasu says: so lets do this experiment Masa Karasu says: if this works i will devote the rest of my life to god. Masa Karasu says: In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be: "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will Masa Karasu says: hatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] Masa Karasu says: i would like a ps3. Masa Karasu says: doesn't seem to wkr. Masa Karasu says: work* don't start a band... says: haha, i'm trying to keep up with your foolishness but there's a lot to get through... don't start a band... says: how is a ps3 bringing glory to the Father? you certainly won't do it, and the ps3 isn't going to do it Masa Karasu says: ou may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] don't start a band... says: And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father Masa Karasu says: You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] don't start a band... says: lol don't start a band... says: it's late Masa Karasu says: thats the actual quote. don't start a band... says: read the Bible don't start a band... says: believe it or don't Masa Karasu says: did found it lacking don't start a band... says: but no amount of argument will convince your mind if your heart is so clouded Masa Karasu says: 2dimensional storyline Masa Karasu says: omnipotence lacks any thrill don't start a band... says: but when you face God, maybe you can get in a request for that ps3 on your way down Masa Karasu says: haha.[left][/left] Offline :> _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Permanent:
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Hardwired - Retired 
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From here on out I want to see only responces taking a serious part in this discussion. Anything but that will have consequences tied to it.
Any further posts should also be without sarcasm, condescending remarks and/or phrases, slander och cheap shots. Just a purely factual and ideological discussion. [edit] Permied to make my point more clear unless it isn't. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: This comment was edited by Hardwired on May 11 2007 02:40pm. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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Quote: You don't want a god. You want a nanny. What you think God should be again destroys the concept of free will. You think that God should be controlling every aspect down to the smallest detail. You demand that if there is a God then he be the operator at a computer, and that computer is the universe, unable to do anything without a command from the operator.
Never thought about it like that, opened my mind that small point, Thank you Buzz _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are 
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Buzz - Student 
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You don't want a god. You want a nanny. What you think God should be again destroys the concept of free will. You think that God should be controlling every aspect down to the smallest detail. You demand that if there is a God then he be the operator at a computer, and that computer is the universe, unable to do anything without a command from the operator. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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lezlo - Student 
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well alot of hard words for me so i dont understand everything but i dont know much about the bible story's either.
But why can god save the thousends of jews in Egypt from slavery but he couldn't save them from the chambers. Or why can't he stop a creapy old man (or youngh) from misbusing little children. You live your life to die, nothing is free accept the air and the sun that will go up and down, but still why is it nececery to make mankind suffer so much while you have the power to prevent it. Sometimes when i read the paper or i watch the news on the tely, i can't watch it without seeing/ reading the suffering in the world. (example) a little baby was found dead in the water, man kidnaps a little girl/boy, a youngh man who have never smoked a cigaret in his life dies from cancer. You can't take away that people die, everyone dies. But why will god take away the ones you love and the ones who have a heart of gold while there are people in the world who are selling drugs\weapons to children, or people who will kidnapp them. It's not fair but life isn't fair. There has been to much misery in my live to believe there is someone above to help us nah, There will be someone who had created all of this but there's no afterlife, there's no god who give you a sign when your doing something wrong or helps you find a way out of your problems. God might be there but first let me see him then i will believe I know this is not a replay on you post but this is my oppinion just like my other post... -Lezlo  |
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Lirael - Jedi Council 
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Shar,
empiricism is about basing your knowledge upon experiences of the physical world. Kant took issue with this because he thought the information derived from our senses are inherently unreliable. Our brain for example maybe imposing restrictions of causality and time upon our experiences as that is the only way it can process the information. Hume pointed out that trying to prove anything from previous experiences (a form of argument called induction) can never provide conclusive proof as the future does not have to follow the past. And I have this strange rule of not accepting proposals from strange boys who can't spell my name correctly. lezlo: There are two main theodicies in response to the Problem of Evil, Augustine's and Hick's. Unfortunately the length of post allows me to only provide a very superficial summary. Essentially according to Augustine the problem of evil is our own fault, we freely choose to cause moral evil. Natural evil is the result of evil (more correctly the privation of good) having being introduced from the original sin - take that as literally or symbolically as you like. Naturally, I don't think many people are particularly fond of what Augustine has to say. Hick, in contrast argues that the suffering is necessary for humans to grow from imago dei to his likeness. In response to the criticism as to why the magnitude of suffering is necessary, he would maintain that it is required for religious ambiguousity - if it were obvious that one religious tradition were right, then acting morally would be pretty meaningless. Also relevant here is Wiles' deductive argument against miracles - you noted that if a god does exist they aren't doing anything about it. Wiles was a Christian theologian and argued that Christians could not believe in a god that performed miracles to stop evil for 3 reasons: 1. the concept of God intervening in one situation to prevent evil is a model called deo ex machina. He argues this is unchristian because it denies two essential things: his omnipresence and that all events are 'special' 2. if one is to view miracles as a fortuitous coincidence rather than breaking the laws of nature, the causes of this miraculous coincidence can be traced back to the beginning of time. This implies a god that is completely omnipotent and interferes at a minute scale in all our affairs which denies free will, which despite what Shar might argue, is an integral part of christian theology. 3. caprice. a god who apparently saves several thousand Jews from slavery in Egypt but not 6 million from the gas chambers cannot be described other than as capricious - also inconsistent with christian theology. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 14 2007 09:07pm. |
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lezlo - Student
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well with al respect to the ones who believe in god. i don't couse alot of peepz are believing in god but still he doesnt have enough convidents (soz for spelling) to help real problems in the world like a complete cure for cancer (well he is god so i think he has the power to do that) and what about all the wars that heapon in this world??? he doesn't do anything about it. The second world war?? with al the jewish peepz who died in the camps?? God didnt do anything about it... well he did he ended the war (by the eyes of a relegious man, becouse they brave soldiers who were fighting the war had a lot of luck and god gives luck sometimes ) but he still ended it to late... to many peepz died. so no i dont believe in god becouse he does to little for this world. And yes i know mankind is on the earth to suffer becouse of the forbidden fruit but still to much suffer...
(and sorry for spelling) -Lezlo This comment was edited by lezlo on May 14 2007 07:44pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student 
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On one note please marry me lirail.
On the other please explain what empiricism and the likes are  _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council 
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‘you can't prove a religion wrong until you are
a: Dead. b: Transcend unto divinity.’ A) – In response the logical positivists’ claim that religious language is devoid of meaning, Hick argued that verification is not required for religious language, yet if you must go down that route, you could use eschatological verification as you have pointed out. Although you are yet again dismissing Kant and Hume’s problem with empiricism. B) I’m taking you mean some concept of nirvana here. I don’t think it’s possible to use the state of nirvana or nibbana as any proof, partly because ‘you’ aren’t around to experience it and it the state half way between being and non-being appears incoherent. Even if you could experience such a state Hume and Kant's objections still stand. ‘Everything has a creator. Everything.’ While many ‘pro-evolutionists’ fail to accept is that their theory is unfalsifiable which could render it unscientific, depending upon which model of science you prefer, the argument from motion or a Prime Mover is not terribly convincing either. Ockham would ask why push the cause back one further stage to a Prime Mover or first cause when it is simpler to accept the universe was the cause of itself. Why can't there be a cyclical chain of causes, or infinite number of causes? To apply a universal theory of causation and then suddenly stop it at ‘The First Cause’ is inconsistent. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 14 2007 09:25pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: But to think that the world around us is there purely because it's there is no answer. In fact it's nothing. It's not scientifically reasoned and it's not even blind faith. It's just confusion. Well, i think you are referring to the question of purpose. I'd say science is relatively adept at answering the "how" questions; unfortunately the same cannot be said about the "why" ones, thus leaving pro-evolutionists with a seemingly lack of purpose, an absence of "divine" meaning which a lot of people find rather uncomfortable to accept (and work with).
Also, i do not believe that science will eventually be able to provide answers for -everything-, since i consider that to be scientifically impossible. I can't recall any scientist claiming the opposite neither. Quote: Everything has a creator. Everything. Creation does not presuppose intelligent design though. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Quote: Koyi:
‘The pharisees and religious men in Jesus's day had it all wrong and Jesus could have very easily opened their spiritual eyes and hearts to His Word, but He didn't because they were a very important picture of how God's love doesn't blanket all and how men using the Word of God for what they believe to be right can be very very wrong.’ Couldn’t it be interpreted that rather than Jesus choosing to open their eyes that the Pharisees chose keep them ‘shut’? Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions but would you support a literal reading of the bible and/or the concept of predestination? Lirael I would love to quote the Bible to show you the verses I stem my beliefs from. However, I don't believe it would be either here or there in the true spirit of this thread. I will however direct you over to this thread that has longed since died out. Click If you go way back to the first posts written on that thread you will find that we discussed this topic of predestination/salvation along time ago filled with great scripture posts backing both sides of the discussion. It's is however difficult for me to say the true meaning of anything in the Bible so I can say with 100% certainty that what I had said earlier is correct. It just seems to fit with what I've read and studied in the past. Your post may have more wisdom then my former statement, but I ask anyone who takes the Bible seriously to read my posts with a open mind forgetting whatever they have been taught either by themselves or others. In the end I believe God will be right and we might have shards of truth that we all cling to but are too blind to see the big picture. May God add His blessing to the reading of His Word. Amen. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down. 
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xAnAtOs - Student |
Quote: Who says there has to be a reason? Maybe it it just, y'know. *happened*? There are so many ways to explain, or *not* explain things, that it's no wonder there are so many types of religion and other kinds of conviction.
Man, I dunno what to believe. I know that I believe diet coke is good, so i'm gonna go drink some. BAI NOW <3 Drink some real coke ya pansy
I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind that kind of sentiment though. Most people who hold that position, as far as I've seen, are either strong believers in science or they don't know what to believe. In either case I think confusion or blind optimism (faith) is present. The confused ones say they're not sure and science just keeps saying they'll find the answers to everything *eventually*. The scientists supposedly base their knowledge on hard facts, and then say they will find the answers to all our problems *some day*. That's called blind optimism. But to think that the world around us is there purely because it's there is no answer. In fact it's nothing. It's not scientifically reasoned and it's not even blind faith. It's just confusion. As far as I'm concerned, everything and everyone has a creator or proprietor. All the man-made achievements are exactly that - man made, products of our intelligence and which work under mans superintendence. Everything beyond, however, can't simply be dismissed as 'it's there because it just happens to be there.' That's not consistent. As someone mentioned below, the wonders of nature are just far beyond anything man could hope to create or understand. The incredible power of the sun, the stars in the sky, rivers, seas and oceans of water, down to the smallest plants growing into the beauty that we see around us. It can't just be there because it's there, and happens because it happens. Everything has a creator. Everything. Also, if anyone feels like mentioning evolution in response to this then see above^. Evolution is the fancy, supposedly 'scientific' way of saying - things happen because they just happen. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey 
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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Shar - Ex-Student 
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Cats are proof that things exists in this world which has no apparent reason...
Other than being cute and lovely
Other than that christianity isen't exactly the only religion which claims to have created everything. So it's not really a valid argument without first proving all the others wrong. Which is not possible since you can't prove a religion wrong until you are a: Dead. b: Transcend unto divinity. Let's get back to discussing the bible which is what the thread was based on
Discussion whether or not a religion is tru gets you nowhere fast with mud on your boots. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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planK - Jedi Council 
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Quote: How else can all this be here?
Who says there has to be a reason? Maybe it it just, y'know. *happened*? There are so many ways to explain, or *not* explain things, that it's no wonder there are so many types of religion and other kinds of conviction. Man, I dunno what to believe. I know that I believe diet coke is good, so i'm gonna go drink some. BAI NOW <3 |
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Evenue - Student 
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Here are some hard proven facts.
This is Lee Strobel speaking, author of books such as The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, and The Case for a Creator. Response to an Email Regarding Bart D. Ehrman's Book, Misquoting Jesus http://leestrobel.com/videos/Bible/strobelT2011.htm The Case for the Creator: Evidence from Physics and Astronomy http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/Creato … lT1003.htm The Case for the Creator: Evidence against Darwinist Theory http://www.leestrobel.com/videos/Creato … lT1001.htm Is the Bible Bogus? http://leestrobel.com/videos/Bible/strobelT1041.htm This is Ravi Zacharias speaking, former atheist, current apologist Is Atheism Dead? Is God Alive? Parts 1-4 1: http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php? … amp;id=582 2: http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php? … amp;id=583 3 :http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=JT&v=detail&id=584 4: http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.php? … amp;id=585 I am a Christian. I see most of you are making your points from small sections of the bible with ignoring the parts around it. Read it thoroughly. Talking about evil, like the starving people in Africa: it is impossible for us to know and understand every thought behind God's actions, he brings good from the bad. For someone said they wouldn't believe in God unless they had 100% proof; just take a look around you man, the trees, sky, oceans, mountains, rivers, people. How else can all this be here? |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Quote:
Quote: Lirail if you are going to use christian apologetics would you be as kind to in sum small point also post a link to it or a brief explanation of it since not everyone is very knowledgable in such a field. Please ? _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council
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I would post links if i got my information from the internet. Unfortunately I've got it from books. I'll see if i can find something a little more reliable than wiki for you but im not sure whether it exists...
edit: I’m going to guess what you want defining since you haven’t specified. Regarding omniscience: - You can take the view that God knows everything. Literally EVERYTHING. I’ve attributed this to Augustine due to he is generally attributed with the concept of predestination which requires such a definition. - Or you can take the view as Ockham did, that omniscience means God knows everything that it is logically possible to know. However what you deem logical possible to know depends on your position be it libertarian, hard or soft determinist. It also entails a God who is everlasting – within and subject to time which some religious believers would reject. - Very briefly, Boethius argued that omniscience does not impinge upon free will – his knowledge of your actions does not cause your actions, as I illustrated in my previous post. Aquinas however disagreed for various reasons. Both of these concepts (Boethius and Aquinas) are compatible with an eternal God who is not involved in time which may be more acceptable to the religious believer. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 11 2007 06:55pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Quote: Lirail if you are going to use christian apologetics would you be as kind to in sum small point also post a link to it or a brief explanation of it since not everyone is very knowledgable in such a field. Please ? _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council
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Sten:
‘some people are so candid about their religion that they implement it in to manners that are out right illogical and irrational as well as insulting or harmful to others…i wasn’t saying all religious people do this...’ I don’t think anyone can deny that religion has been used for destructive purposes but so has any banner individuals choose to unite under whether that be a shared religious, cultural, political etc belief. I think to single out religion in this way is a misrepresentation and slightly Marxist and we all know how well that line of thought turned out in the USSR. ‘I don’t want to be tackled down by a list of codes of what you can or cannot do.’ Certainly there are denominations of Christianity with legalistic ethics such as Natural Law that I’d imagine you’d object to. However I fear you are branding all religion, let alone Christianity with the same brush – as I mentioned before, situation ethics was designed to be a fundamentally Christian ethic yet it is the most relative normative ethical theory you can find – it is all down to you to make the decisions based upon your understanding of agape. ‘i see things for what they really are where others see just a facade or some image conjured up by being raised in their parents image.’ I maybe wrong, but you seem to be implying that most people are somewhat deficient in free will due to social conditioning but you’re not. ‘we all live in our own way and i respect that.’ I’m very much in favour of tolerance but I don’t think respect is easy to attain in any meaningful sense if (and I’m not directing this personally at you) one is only aware of a distorted caricature of that religion or culture or ethnicity etc ‘That is true how religion does help keep a functioning society in the past and present.’ First Marx, now Durkheim, who next? And how do you incorporate them into a coherent theory of the function of religion? ‘To fill in the gaps science had yet to fill.’ The discussion of whether there are moral principles aside, can science simply does not have the tools to investigate whether one should steal a loaf of bread to feed their starving family ‘Eventually it grew as do most things, and as time passed on religion became more and more fanatical.’ I think it was rather fanatical at the beginning – only one of the disciples died of natural causes. Here we have Shar arguing quite the opposite; religion is nowadays being watered down to suit our ‘lifestyle’. Maybe within some countries or cultures there is a revival of fundamentalism or fanaticism but to make sweeping generalizations, as the press does for some sensationalism, is unjustified. Koyi: ‘The pharisees and religious men in Jesus's day had it all wrong and Jesus could have very easily opened their spiritual eyes and hearts to His Word, but He didn't because they were a very important picture of how God's love doesn't blanket all and how men using the Word of God for what they believe to be right can be very very wrong.’ Couldn’t it be interpreted that rather than Jesus choosing to open their eyes that the Pharisees chose keep them ‘shut’? Perhaps I am jumping to conclusions but would you support a literal reading of the bible and/or the concept of predestination? Shar: ‘But if as you said hell is simply a lack of belief in god, is this then to say that people who do not believe in god are leading a life that christians would consider hell ?’ I didn’t say hell is simply a lack of belief in god, I suggest you scroll down and read my post again for clarification. ‘From what ive read of the bible free will has never seemed like a central concept though maybe i should read it over again.’ You only need to read the third chapter of the very first book to find the story of Adam and Eve which is entirely dependent upon the concept of free will. In the copy I have right in front of me it’s only on the second page. ’Once again Buzz theese are old points’ There not as old as the Problem of Evil some like to resurrect (that pun was actually unintentional but I think ill leave it there) ‘wikipedia’ When buzz suggested some research, I’m not entirely sure that’s what he meant. ‘Theological determinism is the thesis that there is a God who determines all that humans will do, either by knowing their actions in advance, via some form of omniscience or by decreeing their actions in advance.’ And this is why I wouldn’t use wikipedia as a source – I’m afraid it is bad with definitions – the one you have picked out is very ambiguous. Before you argue your case I suggest you look into the following: 1) ‘some form of omniscience’ Precisely what form? An Augustinian concept or that of William of Ockham? The two entail too concepts have very different and far reaching implications 2) ‘Some form of omniscience ‘or by decreeing their actions in advance’ Well which one is it? Or is it both; do you take Aquinas’ position that God’s omniscience is causal? In which case how would you refute Boethius’ claim (also a Christian thinker) that since God is eternal as opposed to everlasting he cannot be causal and thus connected to our universe and the concept of causal omniscience is nonsense – my knowledge that my friend is driving home from school at 5:30 pm today certainly hasn’t forced them to do this in anyway. ‘a choice can not be considered free if all other choices but one will lead to "hell" or "divine punishment".’ I think you are failing to recognize that not all Christians share your concept of hell and would be horrified that you imply that they do. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 11 2007 06:26pm. |
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Sten Yuseph - Student 
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(In response to Buzz on my comments.)
That is true how religion does help keep a functioning society in the past and present. That's not a bad thing at all. The point I was making earlier though was to say that, (as I see in most cases), religion was more or less created to explain the unknown. To fill in the gaps science had yet to fill. Eventually it grew as do most things, and as time passed on religion became more and more fanatical. Such as the crusades as an example. It seemed at this point religion became something to take advantage of. Hey, it might be true that a god and an afterlife exists. I will never rule that out entirely and I am absolutely positive it never will. Like someone mentioned before, (forget who it was), that we can't trust science to prove a god non-existant because there is absolutely no way for us to probe in to the afterlife. It is a mystery that will probably remain locked away for civilization as a whole. About church and government not being together, I think you took it too bluntly. What I mean is that when it comes to someones job, they shouldn't be thinking 'well, lets do this in the name of christianity or islam or whatever'. Religion often supports well natured values, which are a good thing to implement. But, the middle east for example, is heavily influenced by islamic law. Especially countries such as Iran. It is to the point that non-islamic/muslim are often targetted for violence. Such as the Jewish and Christian community who are seen by these nations as infidels to be killed. This is why I feel religion shouldn't be guiding a government. It leads to discriminative and insensitive decisions. _______________ - Sten Yuseph This comment was edited by Sten Yuseph on May 11 2007 06:05pm. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Oh its not so bad on defining advanced terms its more dangerous about cultural references and such but still point taken. Though i doubt anyone would change apologetics to something wrong since its not something very popular. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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never use wikpedia >_< seriously get better sources, just thought i'd advise you on that _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Once again Buzz theese are old points that lirail has already answered to be honest even better than you have.
The only thing that i haven't at some point in this thread responded to is the most recent one about free will so i will respond to that one. Free will is a hard concept to defince since there are so many different thought on what it really is. But i think the most fitting one for this argument would be theological determinism which wikipedia quotes as. Theological determinism is the thesis that there is a God who determines all that humans will do, either by knowing their actions in advance, via some form of omniscience or by decreeing their actions in advance. The problem of free will, in this context, is the problem of how our actions can be free, if there is a being who has determined them for us ahead of time. And even though this is a very valid argument my position when writing about free will was merely that a choice can not be considered free if all other choices but one will lead to "hell" or "divine punishment". Im glad that you have started to be active in this discussion but could you please stay away from things such as calling people drivel simply because you do not agree with them ? _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Buzz - Student
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“Say what you will about the tenants of National Socialism, but at least its an Ethos”
Shar the reason I called your drivel drivel is because that’s what it is. The first mistake your friend made was actually assuming you wanted to have a discussion and were trying to learn. That’s the furthest thing from the truth. You had just written your little paper on why Christianity is so evil and wanted to run a little sniping expedition. You began based on your opinion that religion is not allowed to change and grow for it to be called a religion. From that basis you then demand that everyone conform to your opinion and then defend it based only on the criteria of your opinion. Most people do not believe religion to be strict rigid and incapable of changing so they are not going to conform to your opinion. So trying to argue from that position becomes worthless. You then try to twist it to making the claim that people are ignoring parts of the bible when they are explaining to you that because of Christ, what once was the law may no longer be. Christ ended the old covenant and began a new one. Many of the laws in Leviticus are set up for a nomadic group of people, that is on the beginning edges of civilization, at a time where slavery and harsh punishments were almost a necessity. By Christ’s time even slavery had turned into much more of an indentured servitude, and after 7 years of work a slave was to be released and you were expected to pay them very well for their services. This was not the slavery of the American South that when the word “slave” appears that is the image it conjures up. Why do I say that you were not interested in discussion and he thought you should go learn? Just on the number of times he told you to go check other sources than the obvious biased dishonest ones you were using, and basically your demand that he defend against what you believed the statements to be even when he said your interpretation was wrong. There are multiple places you can go to get interpretation and explanation of the meaning of scriptures, you appear to have gone to none except those interested in taking insults at it. Your demand that we accept the Bible as perfect infallible and literal is also ridiculous. As had been pointed out, the book has been written by human hands and human beings are not perfect. Also one only need look at the 4 Gospels. These are 4 books all written by men intended for a particular group of people. Each of these books are supposed to tell the story of Jesus and yet they are not all the same. If the bible was supposed to be perfect then why are there 4 books to tell Christ’s life? Also these 4 Gospels were included at the decision of the church at the time. There were other Gospel versions around at that time as well. Your demands are of course unreasonable and we do not need to be bound by it. You quoted this : For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20 What this was pointing out is that the Pharisees and teachers of law were no longer following the righteous path of God and were more concerned with their own rules and own power, and so to enter heaven you must strive to be better than what they had become. Yes I know its so hard and terrible to urge people to be good and righteous isn’t it. How dare Jesus tell us that. Also if this person is actually your friend and is still your friend then that shows either the greatness of religion or the shear stupidity of it, because of the insulting derogatory nature you took to him and his beliefs and what makes him the person he is. Yet he still thinks of you as a friend. As I said, the greatness or the stupidity. Either way you’re lucky for it. As I pointed out before you were doing nothing but attempting to slander Christianity. You then tried to claim that you weren’t but slandering any and all ideals. As if that’s somehow better. Your mention of Jesus speaking of moving mountains and things as if they should be taken literally demonstrates your misunderstanding. Even the people in his time improperly took hold of a statement he made that was not literal. “Destroy the temple and I shall rebuild it in 3 days.” Also your asking for stuff is ridiculous and the height of ignorance and inability to understand what is being said. You were asking for those electronics for yourself. They were not things being done in the name of Jesus and not as something for Jesus, and they certainly weren’t done to bring glory to God. Even after you posted an entire verse you still chopped it up to try and force it to mean something it didn’t. They are selfish petty little things and your friend should have ridiculed you for those statements, but again he’s a better person than you are. I bet he’d also love to know that you posted a private conversation with him on a public board. That’s all the drivel from your original post, which really was pointless to post from to begin with. As for other things you said. Quote: how am i taking the piss when i am only quoting the bible ?
Doing stuff like that just means you’re trying to play a game of underhanded insults and claim some superior high ground. Even after your friend took you to task very simply by saying you should use better sources and look properly at the context of the text, as I pointed out here and in a previous post. Quote: If you are not a hardcore fundamentalist you are not a christian.
As I’ve pointed out you are starting from this position and demanding others do the same. Problem is we aren’t bound by your demand. And really, there are many many different churches out there each claiming to have the correct Christianity out there and that if I’m not following there’s then I’m wrong. Now if I don’t give a damn about the fact that they think I’m not a Christian by not following that why should I give a damn about a non-believer declaring that I am not a Christian? Simple answer is I don’t, so none of us are bound to your demand about what Christianity is and what constitutes a Religion. The only reason you demand that it must remain stagnant literal and unchanging is so you can take your little swipes at it. As I said your point on slavery was at a different time in the world. And there were very strict guidelines involving all of it. Quote: I have read the full contexts of all the quotes i used but during this msn convo i was using quotes gathered on www.godisimaginary.com so there might be some parts skipped between them. If you feel anything is taken out of context feel free to post them in their entirety.
Also if leviticus is the words of god how does christians believe themself to be above his law ? Also no one here is required to do your dirty work. Many people including your friend told you that you are taking things out of context. You should be going on your own to find the full context and read proper interpretations, and how it applies today or is no longer valid because of the New Testament. But again that would assume you were actually interested in learning. Quote: Seeing as the current christian community seem to consider theese parts of the bible unneccesary i still believe christianity as it is now is more a lifestyle than a religion.
This statement is also lacking. You seem to somehow think that religion and lifestyle must be separate. But for a religious person their religion is an influence on their lifestyle. In fact they use their religion as a guide for living their life. It tells them the style they should be living. Its not about a part of the bible being unnecessary, its that parts of it are for an older society, and aren’t applicable today. Such as eating pork, something that in the ancient world might have killed you. Quote: Also this is not me trying to make anyone abandon their faith it is just me trying to say that "My Opinion" is that todays modern christian faith has to such a degree been watered down by politic attitudes that it no longer has the right to call itself by the religion it is based on.
No Flame. No Lame. No Game. Besides your friend when you urged him to quit wasting his life with his beliefs. For a nihilist who is supposed to believe in nothing you sure are pretty strong in your belief that people who are living religious lives are wasting them. I’d also call that a flame too, and pretty lame too. Your quote of Nietzche also seems pointless I shall also quote Nietzche and another. God is Dead – Nietzche Nietzche is Dead – God Quote: As for being patronising or acting condecening if you mean against the person in the msn convo i was simply well prepared for the discussion having just written an essay on it.
Like I said you weren’t looking for a discussion. You were pulling a conspiracy theorists tactic of mentioning multiple little “discrepencies” and when the person tries to explain against one you just move on to the next, never actually looking to discuss it, just believing your “overwhelming evidence” is proof enough. Quote: Once again stop posting the same thing the last person said and actually add to the discussion instead of hindering it.
I laughed at this since its just repeating the same things over and over again is what you have been doing. Quote: Then its not a religion. Religions deal with constant facts. You are by this argument only fueling my own.
You do realize the bible was not created by human hands right ? It's not supposed to be edited since it was according to god himself created perfect. This is again one of those things where you are demanding something be a certain way when others don’t. And taking the Word of God angle for the Bible, it is the divinely inspired word written by human hands. And humans being imperfect can make some mistakes, and interpret things differently. And again society moves forward where some rules of society no longer apply. Quote: If you had actually taken the time to read all the posts here you would see that this is not a thread about this religion is bad or this one is better but only about what constitues as a christian.
My opinion is that christianity has to such a degree been watered down that its no longer its original religion. Which i have stated how many times now i do not know. As has been stated we’re not bound by your opinion and other Christians have said you are wrong. Now when I am faced with something about Christianity, where should I look to, someone who’s goal is to slander it and show it to be evil and barbaric, or a Christian who is trying to live a Christian life? There is also your statement on ethics that lead me to a question Quote: From my ethics class we never learned that situation ethics were derived from christianity would you please explain were this is coming from ?
It sounds to me as if your instructor did not tell you that some of the things you were learning about were based in Christianity. If this is the case I would ask is your ethics teacher the one you were writing your essay for? Because if it is, his omission of a Christian influence would lead me to say that he is a religion hating atheist. So good job on your topic, he’ll love it no matter how lacking it might actually be. Its like writing a paper that is scathing of men when you know your teacher is a militant feminist, or writing a paper slandering anyone right of center in a college level political science class. Quote: In this way i was not slandering christianity rather than the whole idea of religions.
As I already said, claiming that you’re not slandering Christianity but religion as a whole does not make it better. Quote: From what ive read of the bible free will has never seemed like a central concept though maybe i should read it over again.
It seemed more to be centered around a fatalistic view of life with Chosen tasks and the like so im not quite sure what you constitute towards christian free will The bible is multiple things in one. It contains allegories, morality stories, historical accounts, laws of an ancient people. As well as a guide to live your life. Its also different things to different people, and most of them don’t need you telling them what it should be to them. As for free will it is a central concept in the bible. We’ll start with the allegorical tale of Genesis. And we’ll start with your basis of there being no free will. If there is no free will of man then that means there is only God’s will. In the Garden of Eden there was the Tree of Knowledge. God did not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit from this. It was God’s will that they not eat this fruit. And yet they did. That destroys the argument that there is only God’s will and not free will. Adam and Eve willingly disobeyed God. They chose on there own to not follow God’s will. They had the freedom to choose. That is free will. There is also the story of Job which is about the devil speaking to God about Job and how he only praises God because his life is good, and he would change if circumstances changed. Yet despite it all Job still praised God. If there was no free will there would not be this need to have this story since his praising of God would be a forgone conclusion and the devils assertion that it would not would be pointless. There is also Jesus himself, who wanted people to follow him into a new covenant but did not force people to do this. He wanted them to choose for themselves to follow him. To persuade them not force them. And that still holds true to this day and when medieval peoples tried to force Jews or Muslims or pagans into Christianity their conversion would be ruled false and invalid by the pope, and these people could return to their own faiths. These are all aspects of free will. And your little song quoting is a joke, and not in any way an actual attempt to lighten the mood. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Sten you are more than free to not believe in religion. Religion wasn’t really a way of keeping fearful of God. Its more a way of keeping a functioning society, guiding a community forward in its struggle for survival. Even in the darkest times a person’s faith can sustain them.
I think your example of the military officer is an example of the worst kind of Christian. Those that listen to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. They are shameful and when you have them near more Christians you’ll have their moronic statements quickly denounced. Quote: i believe in science as it is more logical, as we ourselves are getting closer than ever to unlocking our existence
This is also an interesting statement. You believe in science because its more logicial. You make that statement as if science and religion cannot co-exist which is simple not the case. In fact there’s a line from chemistry teacher I once read and I find the statement to be pretty telling. “If you are looking for atheists on a college campus, you have a better chance of finding one by going to the philosophy department than the science department.” Einstein himself said “I want to know God’s thoughts, the rest are details.” Also the willingness to believe science leaves a slight impasse. Since science is setup in such a way to urge you to try to question it and disprove it. In order for something to be scientific it needs to be falsifiable. Many times in the past what was once believed by science has been shown to be wrong with additional science. And there is much that is still not known. And still many holes within science that have not been filled. These holes have of course opened it up to attacks by people such as Creationists, who declare that since there are holes in evolution it is not true and thus God did it. They do not recognize that science is not simply an If not A then B formula. Quote: and im a firm believer church should have nothing to do with politics and such.
A better statement is that government should have nothing to do with church. Since you could use an argument that people with a religious faith shaping their values should not be able to enter into politics. And that becomes a discrimination issue. And really does little since the way a person arrives at a political view should not be an issue for discounting the view. Oh and if God created the heavens and the Earth then that means He created everything in the sky, including the universe, other stars, and other planets. Other life on other planets does not cause a breakdown in the belief of God. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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To lighten up this a bit i figured it post the lyrics to a song by my favourite band namely Smile empty soul, called holes. This song caused chrsitian lobyist groups to have them dropped from their label making their second album anxiety quite a rarity
I've Been Through Everything I've Seen Religions And Beliefs But Nothings Ever Really Helped I'll Try, Drugs Until I Die Breaking Others Lives Until I Really Find Myself And All These People Think They Know What's Missing From My Show Just Admit That Jesus Died For Me Take Your Bibles And Go Home Cause As I'm Walking Through This Life I Know That Things Are Right I Don't Know How To Fill The Holes, I Keep Falling In Along The Way No Matter What They Say No One Has It Figured Out You Act Like Everything Is Great There's Nothing Out Of Place I Can See Right Through The Words You Spin You're Burning Up Within You're Tired And Your Thin Your Can't Believe That God Let You Down And All These People Think They Know What's Missing From My Show Just Admit That Jesus Died For Me Take Your Bibles And Go Home Cause As I'm Walking Through This Life I Know That Things Are Right I Don't Know How To Fill The Holes, I Keep Falling In Along The Way No Matter What They Say No One Has It Figured Out And As I'm Walking Through This Life I Know That Things Are Right I Don't Know How To Fill The Holes, I Keep Falling In Along The Way No Matter What They Say No One Has It Figured Out <3 Smile empty soul. Anyway onwards with the discussion. Lirail if you are going to use christian apologetics would you be as kind to in sum small point also post a link to it or a brief explanation of it since not everyone is very knowledgable in such a field. Also it would seem that in many of your arguments you apply the bible in a philosophical sense as a guide to our life using metaphors. But if as you said hell is simply a lack of belief in god, is this then to say that people who do not believe in god are leading a life that christians would consider hell ? _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Sten Yuseph - Student 
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about that comment on the military officer Lireal, i was making a point that some people are so candid about their religion that they implement it in to manners that are out right illogical and irrational as well as insulting or harmfull to others especially considering their position of authority over others who may or may not share the same ideology.
i wasnt saying all religious people do this...and i want to make it clear that people don't misunderstand my words. im in no way against every religious person. im just pointing out what i believe to be flaws in that a devine being exists. also, as mentioned before about free will in society. that is another thing that i disagree with about having to devote ones life to living a christian lifestyle. no, im not saying its evil or anything. its perfectly fine if thats the way you choose to live, but for me? no way. i dont want to be tackled down by a list of codes of what you can or cannot do. or a schedule of worship to abide by. i believe in doing whatever i want, how i want, when i want. i swear nearly every sentence and ive commited my share of sins...but what i do i base on logic of the situation and by trying to live life to what i perceive to be the best way possible. my mother gave me a valuable thing when i was born. and that was to live my life as free as possible. letting me figure out the world for myself by not directing me to church or forcing her opinions on life on me. through this i became an extremely optimistic person. i see things for what they really are where others see just a facade or some image conjured up by being raised in their parents image. once again, im not saying thats wrong either. we all live in our own way and i respect that. ive just been living with a...rare view on life. i guess you could call me an agnostic believer, but on the scale i lean more towards a god not existing. _______________ - Sten Yuseph This comment was edited by Sten Yuseph on May 10 2007 10:42pm. |
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