| Religion Convo | |
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Shar - ex-Student  |
So i had just finished writing my essay on the downfall of christianity when i notice Monk is online :p Following Convo Ensues
Masa Karasu says: sup Masa Karasu says: youre a christian right ? don't start a band... says: yup Masa Karasu says: so i assume youre against homosexuality ? don't start a band... says: the sin not the sinners Masa Karasu says: ahh Masa Karasu says: and also you are pro slavery `? don't start a band... says: no... Masa Karasu says: Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44 don't start a band... says: lol, planned, nice try Masa Karasu says: i also assume you believe women are inferior ? don't start a band... says: men lead, that doesn't mean abusing or lowering women. men lead the family while women support them and both become one, basically Masa Karasu says: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. - 1 Corinthians 14 And: Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authori don't start a band... says: gj, you copy and pasted someone's argument, what are you saying? Masa Karasu says: im not copying anyones argument besides gods. don't start a band... says: well if you agree with God, then there's not really a reason to tell me these things unless you're trying to teach me, which i think you're not. unless you're trying to make a point don't start a band... says: and thus don't agree with God don't start a band... says: which is always a sticky situation for a person Masa Karasu says: i ofc don't agree with god since im making theese comments Masa Karasu says: just wondering if you do = don't start a band... says: i trust God yes. the slave part you're confused on because it's old testament, whereas with the new testament all men are freed from the power of sin by Jesus; gentiles and Jews. which i think i remember remarks being made about physical slavery ending with that as well. though i could be wrong Masa Karasu says: so youre saying only certain parts of the bible counts ? don't start a band... says: if you understood, rather than simply read, the Bible, you'd know what i mean by that don't start a band... says: the New Testament is all about Jesus coming to earth and thus forming a new covanent with man; as opposed to that which was made in the Old Testament through Moses and Abraham and such Masa Karasu says: ahh then lets use a jeus quote don't start a band... says: just like Jesus healed on the Sabbath Masa Karasu says: humm Masa Karasu says: so jesus is all love ? Masa Karasu says: for everyone or only christians = don't start a band... says: equals what? Masa Karasu says: = equals shar missing the question mark button Masa Karasu says: also the religion seems to only be for a certain race Masa Karasu says: Matthew 15:22-26 we find this telling conversation: A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel Masa Karasu says: " The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." don't start a band... says: Jesus loves all. that's what Acts is all about; where it's revealed to Paul that Jesus came to die for Jews and gentiles alike don't start a band... says: and thus he takes the message to the Gentiles, specifically the Greeks Masa Karasu says: so how do you explain him not helping the woman ? don't start a band... says: let me check it quick Masa Karasu says: just scroll up. don't start a band... says: the Bible is all about context, it's the argument of fools that pulls out little parts of the Bible to make a point and doesn't observe the cultural backing, the surrounding passages and scene Masa Karasu says: ahh so what was the backing Masa Karasu says: thought jesus loved everyone. don't start a band... says: k, you're confused don't start a band... says: that's not Matt. 15:22-26 don't start a band... says: lol Masa Karasu says: oh then what is it ? don't start a band... says: no idea, but Matt:22-26 is talking about Jesus being taken to Golgotha and the time leading up to his crucifixion don't start a band... says: 15:22-26 Masa Karasu says: sec while i check oremus don't start a band... says: lol Masa Karasu says: Matthew 15.22 don't start a band... says: such a foolish world to use its intelligence to try and deny the very God who granted it to them Masa Karasu says: and still not suffer his wrath no matter how much he threatens with it. Masa Karasu says: so it was Matthew 15.22 still why didn't he help ? Masa Karasu says: http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=45510893 don't start a band... says: sec don't start a band... says: and the day of the Lord is coming Masa Karasu says: you do realize saying any part of the bible is not "used" or does not count just makes my entire point since it proves god is wrong. don't start a band... says: ... Masa Karasu says: The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever. [Isaiah 40 verse 8] Masa Karasu says: saying any part does not count anymore Masa Karasu says: means god was wrong Masa Karasu says: and isen't he supposed to be this omnipotent omniscient being ? don't start a band... says: God can't be wrong. because to say he's wrong is to say you have some idea of what "right" should be. and where do you get that but from the fact that God created us with a sense of how things should be, because we're formed in His image. don't start a band... says: He is don't start a band... says: it's foolish of you to know that and not believe it don't start a band... says: but that's the ignorant foolishness of this world Masa Karasu says: still waiting about the woman Masa Karasu says: and if he can't be wrong Masa Karasu says: christianty still supports slavery. Masa Karasu says: and sexism Masa Karasu says: and believes homosexuals should be put to death. don't start a band... says: for their sin don't start a band... says: but Jesus came and delieved justification through His death on the cross don't start a band... says: and freed us from the penalty of sin, and from the power of sin Masa Karasu says: then he cleared out all the old sin Masa Karasu says: what about the new sin don't start a band... says: God is not restricted by time Masa Karasu says: and jesus also states that we should follow gods law or will never enter heaven don't start a band... says: his death purifies everyone for all time Masa Karasu says: For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:20 don't start a band... says: and he declares us righteous by his death don't start a band... says: that's what Romans is about Masa Karasu says: ah so people can then do whatever we want and still enter heaven ? Masa Karasu says: still waiting on the woman don't start a band... says: Romans 6 "what shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Masa Karasu says: so then we aren't saved from sin for all time. Masa Karasu says: the funny thing is all the contradictions Masa Karasu says: makes the book kinda hard to defend. Masa Karasu says: so we are back at killing them Masa Karasu says: should you start the jihad or i ? don't start a band... says: ... Masa Karasu says: comeon don't give up yet. Masa Karasu says: there probably are a lot of other contradictions left. don't start a band... says: i think you're asking the wrong person. my answers are coming from the Bible, and i think if you actually took time to read and try to understand it, rather than get sections of wanna-be arguments from online sources, it would clear a lot up Masa Karasu says: well the wannabe sources are quotes from the bible. don't start a band... says: and in truth, if you don't have faith in Jesus after all he's done for you and all the glory in this world, you won't get it from a bunch of facts most likely Masa Karasu says: aren't facts what the world is based on ? don't start a band... says: the wisest man besides Jesus to ever walk the earth said himself that all wisdom is meaningless Masa Karasu says: and he was ? don't start a band... says: Solomon Masa Karasu says: and you do realise that piece of information is also knowledge ? don't start a band... says: and meaningless, because when we die God isn't going to say "so...who was so-and-so?" Masa Karasu says: so we should live like stoics in apparent apathy ? don't start a band... says: either we have put all our faith in Christ and thus been saved from sin, or not. don't start a band... says: you can take it or leave don't start a band... says: it don't start a band... says: but if you leave it you leave life behind don't start a band... says: it's black and white Masa Karasu says: haven't i already done that if i am at the gate ? don't start a band... says: it's right there in the Bible you're quoting Masa Karasu says: actually no since the bible doesn't let me have my own opinion. don't start a band... says: you either accept the Bible for what it is and what it says, or not. Masa Karasu says: its more kill the heathenes. don't start a band... says: "the message of the cross if foolishness to those on the path to the grave" Masa Karasu says: if foolishness ? don't start a band... says: is* Masa Karasu says: ah. Masa Karasu says: also the reasoning you are using atm is called pascal's wager. Masa Karasu says: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ don't start a band... says: so many people try to question God through trying to prove something wrong in His Word, and the truth is there's no argument for me to pose though you look for one. you obviously know the Bible oh-so well if you can find "errors"; and so if after reading the Truth, you don't believe, then what hope do i have in convincing you of what God couldn't? Masa Karasu says: oh its not to convince me don't start a band... says: don't look to me for answers Masa Karasu says: banish that thought yonder. don't start a band... says: look to the Bible Masa Karasu says: its for you. Masa Karasu says: youre still kinda young and haven't wasted your entire life on meaningless ideals and valuegrounds don't start a band... says: i walk with Jesus, my life is more fulfilled if i die in the next second than yours will ever be without Him Masa Karasu says: besides how come god won't heal amputess or feed starving children in africa ? don't start a band... says: who are you, who is anyone, to demand miracles of God; who's already given so much? Masa Karasu says: sec while i find all the ask and you shall recieve quotes don't start a band... says: life is gift enough, Jesus even tops all Masa Karasu says: n Matthew 7:7 Jesus says: Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gi don't start a band... says: you can try. so why are you talking to me and not asking God for those things? Masa Karasu says: w how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! don't start a band... says: hmm...probably because you don't actually believe in Him Masa Karasu says: already did didn't work. Masa Karasu says: then how about you try. Masa Karasu says: since he can grant anything Masa Karasu says: how about a new geforce card ? don't start a band... says: and who are you to say God should do all that you want in your timing? Masa Karasu says: Matthew 17:20 Jesus says: For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. Masa Karasu says: In Matthew 21:21: I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. don't start a band... says: if God gives me nothing he's given me more than I ever deserve Masa Karasu says: The message is reiterated Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. don't start a band... says: and you do doubt don't start a band... says: lol don't start a band... says: how ironic Masa Karasu says: i don't doubt Masa Karasu says: i don't believe. don't start a band... says: black and white don't start a band... says: doubt, or belief don't start a band... says: not believing in God is doubting him Masa Karasu says: not doubt or belief Masa Karasu says: disbelief or belief. Masa Karasu says: so lets do this experiment Masa Karasu says: if this works i will devote the rest of my life to god. Masa Karasu says: In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be: "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will Masa Karasu says: hatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] Masa Karasu says: i would like a ps3. Masa Karasu says: doesn't seem to wkr. Masa Karasu says: work* don't start a band... says: haha, i'm trying to keep up with your foolishness but there's a lot to get through... don't start a band... says: how is a ps3 bringing glory to the Father? you certainly won't do it, and the ps3 isn't going to do it Masa Karasu says: ou may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] don't start a band... says: And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father Masa Karasu says: You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref] don't start a band... says: lol don't start a band... says: it's late Masa Karasu says: thats the actual quote. don't start a band... says: read the Bible don't start a band... says: believe it or don't Masa Karasu says: did found it lacking don't start a band... says: but no amount of argument will convince your mind if your heart is so clouded Masa Karasu says: 2dimensional storyline Masa Karasu says: omnipotence lacks any thrill don't start a band... says: but when you face God, maybe you can get in a request for that ps3 on your way down Masa Karasu says: haha.[left][/left] Offline :> _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Permanent:
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Hardwired - Retired 
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From here on out I want to see only responces taking a serious part in this discussion. Anything but that will have consequences tied to it.
Any further posts should also be without sarcasm, condescending remarks and/or phrases, slander och cheap shots. Just a purely factual and ideological discussion. [edit] Permied to make my point more clear unless it isn't. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: This comment was edited by Hardwired on May 11 2007 02:40pm. |
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Sauce - =^.^= 
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my mother passed away 1 mo ago. |
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Tallepyon - Student 
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Quote: Sauce's mom like Tallepyon's weiner
Fixed |
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Sauce - =^.^=
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tallepyon likes the wiener. |
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Tallepyon - Student
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Quote: I think it's appropriate to say OMG THIS IS BORING, JESUS CHRIST OMG.
lolz. Guys; life is short, lighten up. <3 /agree This comment was edited by Tallepyon on May 09 2007 10:16pm. |
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planK - Jedi Council 
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I think it's appropriate to say OMG THIS IS BORING, JESUS CHRIST OMG.
lolz. Guys; life is short, lighten up. <3 |
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Shar - Ex-Student 
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From what ive read of the bible free will has never seemed like a central concept though maybe i should read it over again.
It seemed more to be centered around a fatalistic view of life with Chosen tasks and the like so im not quite sure what you constitute towards christian free will ? _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council 
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‘youre point was that religion can be incorporated into a lifestyle even if it is at a fundamental level which i have not argued against i believe and if i did i was wrong.’
‘A religion uses non changing facts. This is the way it is = Religion. This is the way we think atm = Lifestyle.’ I think you might have contradicted yourself here ‘So what is your personal view ?’ I don’t wish to take this debate onto a personal level and I think its important things such as the context of the quotations are sorted out first. ‘I believe that if you are going to declare anything as written down by a superior might such as god that has verses such as gods word is forever and then later say that it's not tru anymore because he changed his mind trough his son wouldn't that be a sign against god's omniscience/omnipotence whereas he's proven wrong ?’ The key word here is ‘if’. The majority of Christians do not believe that the Bible contains plenary, verbal and infallible inspiration. Most recognize that the Bible has many different authors each in different times and cultures with their own concerns. Thus for them, God’s omniscience and omnipotence is not at issue, rather it is the fallibility of men. I would like to put to you again my question: I have argued why I think the literalist approach to the Bible is not truly Christian as it denies free will– how would you counter this? I am not quite sure how this immediately follows onto the problem of evil, perhaps a more relevant argument for you to use would be Russell’s reformulation of the Euthyphro dilemma which can be applied to the moral rules one might draw from the Bible _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Thanks for explaining about the situation ethics history 
About the lifestyles: Well in the post you made you used judaism as a example which as it would seem from your point completely controls someones lifestyle so i figured then you must mean that lifestyles and religions are the same as is what you yourself said. But i would assume that from your recent post that youre point was that religion can be incorporated into a lifestyle even if it is at a fundamental level which i have not argued against i believe and if i did i was wrong. Onwards to paul. Well as of what i know i thought that was based from him hearing women chatting in church which he didn't enjoy ? So what is your personal view ? About Fundamentalists: I believe that if you are going to declare anything as written down by a superior might such as god that has verses such as gods word is forever and then later say that it's not tru anymore because he changed his mind trough his son wouldn't that be a sign against god's omniscience/omnipotence whereas he's proven wrong ? Or to add even more onto it i could quote Epicurus "Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" But this is what i meaht by a discussion about if god exists whereas i wanted to focus this discussion only on the bible which is what the essay i was writing was about. Tbh this whole thread was simply created so that i could better my essay. But yes as you have pointed out i believe that to follow a religion that has a religious scripture that was written by a deity with omniscience, omnipotence and infinte wisdom i would assume all his/her words would be tru even to this day. That is if you would call yourself a follower of this religion. Out of context: Yes it has been brought to my attention now by several that many quotes were taken out of context and some have been fixed and i would thank you if you could post anymore you find in their entirety. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council
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‘From my ethics class we never learned that situation ethics were derived from christianity would you please explain were this is coming from ?’
Situation Ethics was developed in the 1960s by Joseph Fletcher who was an Episcopal priest. In his book he talks about 6 fundamental and 4 working principles which all further explain the one guiding principle of his ethic – agape. ‘Agape’ is the Greek word for selfless love, and is sometimes (although arguably) known as ‘Christian Love’ as the principle ‘loving thy neighbor as thyself’ was emphasized on The Sermon on the Mount. Fletcher set out to formulate an ethic that was compatible with Christianity as he viewed legalistic ethics such as Natural Law to have failed – concepts such as double effect can be viewed as dubious – and of course Jesus criticized the Pharisaic legalism. He also rejected antinomian ethics – complete relativism – as he argued that would cause complete chaos and as Jesus said, ‘I have not come to replace the law, only that it may be fulfilled’. Thus Situation Ethics was an attempt to strike a balance between legalism and antinomianism as Fletcher’s view (or interpretation) of the Bible required. ‘I fail to see the point you are trying to make. If as you say religion and lifestyles are the same thing then religions are not constant and would rather be things that can be changed to suit the current attitude of the world ?’ I didn’t say religion and lifestyle are identical. I said that religion is an integral part of a religious person’s lifestyle. The point was that I disagree with your definition of religion and lifestyle. I then went on to show how to the individual may hold absolute values which is incorporated into their lifestyle even though lifestyles are not necessarily permanent. Also it would be worth noting that it is not necessary to be religious to hold absolute values – strong rule utilitarianism and virtue ethics are key illustrations of this. If you wish me to answer your question directly, I’m afraid you will have to be a little more precise. Do I prefer the change in attitude towards slavery? Yes I do, but I’m not so sure about a change in attitude about loving one’s neighbor. Here you may say that I have proved your point by apparently contradicting the Bible on slavery. Firstly I would like to point out that nowhere in my posts have I made any comments about my own personal views aside from that I think this discussion could have gone on better. Secondly as I have mentioned before, the passage you have selected about slavery is part of the Old Testament and the Old Covenant and is therefore not as relevant to Christians today. Equally, with quotations from the New Testament, they have also been taken out of context, that infamous passage of Paul’s about women staying silent in church and submitting to their husbands is always taken out of context and stopped short of a crucial part. When Paul was writing, very few women had education. I think many people would agree with me that unless an individual has sufficient knowledge on a subject, particularly if it is important and sensitive, they should not make bold statements; perhaps it would indeed be better to stay silent. What is always left out in that quotation is what Paul goes on to say about the role of men in marriage: ‘Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it’. To take that passage literally, husbands must be willing to endure a humiliating painful and drawn out death for their wives. Paul’s point is that marriage is a very important sacrament where both people make serious commitments to each other which are equal but different ‘and they two shall be one flesh’ ‘You do realize the bible was not created by human hands right ? It's not supposed to be edited since it was according to god himself created perfect.: The whole argument about god not existing is something i would rather not delve into in this thread but i would love to start a new one if you would enjoy such a discussion’ I’m not entirely sure where this comes from, I was under the impression that you were proposing that only fundamentalism was true religion and I was responding that the fundamentalists’ requirement of a literal reading of the Bible was incoherent for reasons I have already expressed; I eagerly await your answer to explain this incoherence away. ‘Tru that it has been brought to my attention that atleast one or more were out of context but the interpretation part i do not fully understand where you are hinting at.’ I was pointing out what seemed to be a contradiction in your argument. You were quoting passages of the Bible saying that they could not be interpreted. Yet as I have shown above in this post, such passages were taken out of context, thus a meaning was rendered which was in fact invalid which is in itself (albeit unwittingly) an interpretation of the Bible. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Quote:
Quote:
Why do you assume i am trying to slander christianity ? That was never the point of my argument. If you had actually taken the time to read all the posts here you would see that this is not a thread about this religion is bad or this one is better but only about what constitues as a christian. My opinion is that christianity has to such a degree been watered down that its no longer its original religion. Which i have stated how many times now i do not know. Stop trying with your childish personal attacks. They add nothing to the discussion at all. I thank you for explaining the context of the verse but try to conduct yourself in a more civil manner. and I quote: Quote: Masa Karasu says:
oh its not to convince me don't start a band... says: don't look to me for answers Masa Karasu says: banish that thought yonder. don't start a band... says: look to the Bible Masa Karasu says: its for you. Masa Karasu says: youre still kinda young and haven't wasted your entire life on meaningless ideals and valuegrounds Not attempting to slander Christianity. What a joke. Tell me, which ideals do you think he's wasting his life on that are meaningless? Well this is me as a Nihilist speaking. And i would rather say you should not adhere to any valueground at all. Not christian nor any else. In this way i was not slandering christianity rather than the whole idea of religions. I love him who is of a free spirit and a free heart: thus is his head only the bowels of his heart; his heart, however, causes his down-going. //Nietzsche _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Shar - Ex-Student 
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You make very good points as usual and ill try to answer each one as good as possible though my lack of quoting experience might make it hard to read.
Should we avoid all discussions: I believe atleast i have taken in new information and opinions in this thread but as you yourself stated opinions are not going to change. As far as the whole why i think this way i have said it far to many time to repeat it again. This might seem as you said as me just repeating the same basic statement without backing it but it's a private opinion and the facts are there since not exactly all of the "rules" or whatever you would like to call them are still being used. The part about the msn convo: I would rather say that this was being done by both parts in the conversation. That weak attempt contains more biblical quotes than i can name.: Tru that it has been brought to my attention that atleast one or more were out of context but the interpretation part i do not fully understand where you are hinting at. I was rather trying to say that they weren't as ambigious as the stories of Moes or Job. They are rather rules laid down in point by point format so i really didn't see much options for different interpretations. You do realize the bible was not created by human hands right ? It's not supposed to be edited since it was according to god himself created perfect.: The whole argument about god not existing is something i would rather not delve into in this thread but i would love to start a new one if you would enjoy such a discussion. On the other hand my evidence is as stated above and the part about the fundamentalist would in a way unless i have not again missunderstood you also lead into a god does not exist argument which i would as stated above enjoy but in another thread. But really it is hard to argue against the bible without resorting to some form of atheism. About the religion lifestyle: I fail to see the point you are trying to make. If as you say religion and lifestyles are the same thing then religions are not constant and would rather be things that can be changed to suit the current attitude of the world ? Ethics: From my ethics class we never learned that situation ethics were derived from christianity would you please explain were this is coming from ? _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Jaiko D'Kana - Student 
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Hmmm i think this thread is nearing its end. Unfortunate but it seems such convos are littered with a circular logic which can be argued till the cows come home.
I dont mind productive arguments/discussions but when we have finger pointing, name calling and disrespect for one another such a thread becomes to costly. Essentially religion is not necessarily based on fact, but rather faith. What some one believes to be true. Whether they believe it through personal experiance, upbringing or any other reason a persons FAITH is very important. Is it for us to decide what is right and wrong about that? Please keep this discussion on track, or it wont live for any period of time. I'm sorry. -JaikoD'Kana- _______________ The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind. William James (1842 - 1910) |
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Lirael - Jedi Council
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‘Should we avoid all discussions that might led into people having a reaction ?’
Certainly not. However engaging in a discussion simply to provoke a reaction is not wise. This is what numerous people in their posts below are pointing out to you; there have been many arguments on internet forums before that are not constructive in anyway and do nothing for the community. I don’t think anyone would like to see another. I look forward to a constructive discussion, not where people are necessarily looking to change the opinion of anyone else – that is unlikely to happen – but to learn more about others’ views and perhaps understand better why they hold them. As far as I can tell, I don’t think this is the case here. ‘i was simply well prepared for the discussion having just written an essay on it.’ A discussion involves listening to what the other person has said. Usually you counter what the other person has said rather than continuing onto the next gripe on your list. And by this I don’t mean to say ‘you are a bad person’, only that your skills of rhetoric could do with a little polishing. ‘That weak attempt contains more biblical quotes than i can name.’ Yes, you quoted the Bible, but quoted it out of context, unaware of the meaning behind the quotations – thus interpreting it perhaps unfairly whilst simultaneously claiming that there was no interpretation to be had about these selected quotes anyway. ‘You do realize the bible was not created by human hands right ? It's not supposed to be edited since it was according to god himself created perfect.’ In a constructive discussion we might argue over whether the fundamentalist position is tenable. Although I have attempted to discuss this with you, you have only reasserted your original statement rather than support it with evidence. I hope this doesn’t spiral downwards into an entirely destructive discussion where we might argue that of course the bible was not created by human hands; it was created by pencils which were themselves created by human hands. You have previously stated your belief that there is a difference between religion and lifestyle. I would beg to differ and these are my reasons why: Firstly let’s assume one must take an absolute position towards all doctrine and ethics to be ‘true’ to their religion. Whilst it is true the lifestyle and values of nation or culture may drastically change over generations, one individual’s lifestyle might not change that much, so it is possible to incorporate the absolute stance or religion into one’s lifestyle. Indeed, if religion is not a part of your lifestyle, it is hard to see how you can be following that religion. Judaism is a prime example, in the Torah there are 613 commandments which affect every aspect of your life from deciding not to murder someone with your new AK-47 you purchased in the US to not shaving ‘the corners of your head’. Secondly, the only ethic claiming to have been formulated upon an entirely Christian foundation is Situation Ethics. The only guiding principle that is held absolute is that of agape. In every situation, every decision and action is made not by following pre decided deontological rules but are made entirely individually, relatively and situationally. I.e. Whether a fundamentalist position is held or not, religion can still be seen as an integral part of one’s lifestyle. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on May 09 2007 05:57pm. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Quote: Why do you assume i am trying to slander christianity ? That was never the point of my argument. If you had actually taken the time to read all the posts here you would see that this is not a thread about this religion is bad or this one is better but only about what constitues as a christian. My opinion is that christianity has to such a degree been watered down that its no longer its original religion. Which i have stated how many times now i do not know. Stop trying with your childish personal attacks. They add nothing to the discussion at all. I thank you for explaining the context of the verse but try to conduct yourself in a more civil manner. and I quote: Quote: Masa Karasu says:
oh its not to convince me don't start a band... says: don't look to me for answers Masa Karasu says: banish that thought yonder. don't start a band... says: look to the Bible Masa Karasu says: its for you. Masa Karasu says: youre still kinda young and haven't wasted your entire life on meaningless ideals and valuegrounds Not attempting to slander Christianity. What a joke. Tell me, which ideals do you think he's wasting his life on that are meaningless? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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And here i thought flaming also applied to admin and staff members ?
I will admit that i had not read the whole of it since i used a bible search page called orpheus or orhemus or somethin similar which broke off at the part i quoted so i figured the verse ended there. Also since Monk didn't say anything about the verse i assumed it was correct since he knows a lot more about the bible than i do. Why do you assume i am trying to slander christianity ? That was never the point of my argument. If you had actually taken the time to read all the posts here you would see that this is not a thread about this religion is bad or this one is better but only about what constitues as a christian. My opinion is that christianity has to such a degree been watered down that its no longer its original religion. Which i have stated how many times now i do not know. Stop trying with your childish personal attacks. They add nothing to the discussion at all. I thank you for explaining the context of the verse but try to conduct yourself in a more civil manner. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Buzz - Student
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I'll have more to say about your drivel later but for the moment this part really stuck out at me.
Quote: Masa Karasu says:
Matthew 15:22-26 we find this telling conversation: A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel Masa Karasu says: " The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." don't start a band... says: Jesus loves all. that's what Acts is all about; where it's revealed to Paul that Jesus came to die for Jews and gentiles alike don't start a band... says: and thus he takes the message to the Gentiles, specifically the Greeks Masa Karasu says: so how do you explain him not helping the woman ? Context is key as is reading everything that is required. You have omitted information pertaining to these verses to fit your argument. Whether it was you who did it purposefully or whatever garbage excuse you used for a biblical source. That passage does not complete for 2 more verses which were left out. Veses 27 and 28 read. 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour It is a very telling conversation afteall isn't it. But not of Christ, of you and your willingness to only find that which fits your preconceived notions and not look in deeper. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Sauce - =^.^=
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arguing about religion is bad drama. it might not seem so bad to have discussions about it but i've never seen it work out. people much more intelligent than us (ok me...) have failed many times over in the past to carry on a civilized discussion. religion is just such a sensitive topic because it's an integral part of people's lives. even a person says that such and such religion appears to not make sense, appears to be not so rooted in what the religion should be, or appears to be wrong, it's in essence an attack on the follower of the religion. so yeah that's why people can't keep a cool head. there is no better way to get on someone's bad side than to question something they hold near and dear to their heart. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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im all for friendly discussion, but its clear in your conversation you didnt try and debate with him, you was finding what you believe to be faults in his relgion and throwing them in his face. Thats just rude and however much you dont mind people losing respect for you doesnt really matter. If people dont like you, they wont read your post's and thus you get no discussion, we have to think about other peoples responses to our opinions before we put them here,
I just think you could of had a discussion without being patronizing at the same time. I completely agree with you. I was finding what i believe to be wrong in his religion and if someone here does not think slavery and stoning of non believers is wrong then please say so. As for thinking about the other persons feelings or the likes i think i responded to that in my previous post. As for being patronising or acting condecening if you mean against the person in the msn convo i was simply well prepared for the discussion having just written an essay on it. If you mean against dane i was simply responding with the same manner of rhetoric he used. I believe using rhetoric as i lost whatever respect i had for you would by most also be considered patronising. Shouldn't this thread get back to discussing religion instead of trying to tell me how much of a bad person i am ? Your so one minded, do you still hate the germans from the 2nd world war, todays christans had no role in the previous actions of the relgion, it has come along way since then times change, people change relgion moulds in to new things. Then its not a religion. Religions deal with constant facts. You are by this argument only fueling my own. You do realize the bible was not created by human hands right ? It's not supposed to be edited since it was according to god himself created perfect. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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That weak attempt contains more biblical quotes than i can name.
So lets start analyzing. How about starting with the biblical quote on jesus refusing to help a woman because she was not of the right race ? Have i misenterpreted this in any way or is there some context i have left out ? But didn't we already discuss this over the last two pages before you all started to make me see what a bad person i am ? For the third. The person in the msn convo is a longtime friend of mine that used to be in KoP with me. We are buddies its not like im trying to own him or anything. He is a very knowledgeable and devout christian it's not like im assaulting some recently turned only goes to church for events christian. Besides i don't know where you guys are getting theese things from since most of the longer non "stop being a bad person" or "You don't know anything about christian" or "Close this thread people will only start to flame" Are genuine discussions that it seems people are either ignoring or just to lazy to read. Once again stop posting the same thing the last person said and actually add to the discussion instead of hindering it. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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Quote:
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im all for friendly discussion, but its clear in your conversation you didnt try and debate with him, you was finding what you believe to be faults in his relgion and throwing them in his face. Thats just rude and however much you dont mind people losing respect for you doesnt really matter. If people dont like you, they wont read your post's and thus you get no discussion, we have to think about other peoples responses to our opinions before we put them here,
I just think you could of had a discussion without being patronizing at the same time. I completely agree with you. I was finding what i believe to be wrong in his religion and if someone here does not think slavery and stoning of non believers is wrong then please say so. As for thinking about the other persons feelings or the likes i think i responded to that in my previous post. As for being patronising or acting condecening if you mean against the person in the msn convo i was simply well prepared for the discussion having just written an essay on it. If you mean against dane i was simply responding with the same manner of rhetoric he used. I believe using rhetoric as i lost whatever respect i had for you would by most also be considered patronising. Shouldn't this thread get back to discussing religion instead of trying to tell me how much of a bad person i am ? Your so one minded, do you still hate the germans from the 2nd world war, todays christans had no role in the previous actions of the relgion, it has come along way since then times change, people change relgion moulds in to new things. _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are 
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Jade Jedi - Retired 
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If you want to have a discussion about religion that's great, but don't cut and past some discussion you had with someone where you blatantly ambushed them and made a very week attempt to attack them and their beliefs.
Instead, post a quote or some other biblical reference, offer up an argument, view or theory and open it to discussion. For example: Adam & Eve, Was Eve being innocently playful when offering Adam the forbidden fruit, or is she really a filthy temptress with foul play on her mind? But please don't ambush someone the post it here and say "Hehehe I pwned a Cristian" I know that probably wasn't your intent but it is certainly what it comes across as. I am not trying to mock or flam you here, just letting you know how your post come across. I hope your thread get some constructive discussion going, good luck.  _______________ *CLICKEH->Never risk the Fett Man|*Download my Saber here. Made by master craftsman Pink Floyd_Mintaka + his 2002 & 4000 comment's [Laz's 700th comment][BDKawika's 600th comment] & Owner of a TOWEL award!!|Master: Sared Padawans: Rage-Ball and Dante Eagle.|*Jade Jedi at The Jedi Academy Archives "There's only one Return and it's not of the King it's of the Jedi" Randal Clerks 2 The top 10 reasons why I procrastinate: 1. |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Quote: im all for friendly discussion, but its clear in your conversation you didnt try and debate with him, you was finding what you believe to be faults in his relgion and throwing them in his face. Thats just rude and however much you dont mind people losing respect for you doesnt really matter. If people dont like you, they wont read your post's and thus you get no discussion, we have to think about other peoples responses to our opinions before we put them here,
I just think you could of had a discussion without being patronizing at the same time. I completely agree with you. I was finding what i believe to be wrong in his religion and if someone here does not think slavery and stoning of non believers is wrong then please say so. As for thinking about the other persons feelings or the likes i think i responded to that in my previous post. As for being patronising or acting condecening if you mean against the person in the msn convo i was simply well prepared for the discussion having just written an essay on it. If you mean against dane i was simply responding with the same manner of rhetoric he used. I believe using rhetoric as i lost whatever respect i had for you would by most also be considered patronising. Shouldn't this thread get back to discussing religion instead of trying to tell me how much of a bad person i am ? _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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im all for friendly discussion, but its clear in your conversation you didnt try and debate with him, you was finding what you believe to be faults in his relgion and throwing them in his face. Thats just rude and however much you dont mind people losing respect for you doesnt really matter. If people dont like you, they wont read your post's and thus you get no discussion, we have to think about other peoples responses to our opinions before we put them here,
I just think you could of had a discussion without being patronizing at the same time. _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Shar - Ex-Student
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Simply stating that something is weak with the only reason being "it hurts feelings" isen't really a valid argument.
Loss of respect doesn't consern me. Should we avoid all discussions that might led into people having a reaction ? People seem to have for to little reactions today it's all "don't bother" "Youre just wasting your time" as the standard response to anything that might require them to contemplate their current way of life. Let me quote Nietzsche. And thus spoke Zarathustra to the people: It is time for man to fix his goal. It is time for man to plant the seed of his highest hope. His soil is still rich enough for it. But that soil will one day be poor and exhausted, and no lofty tree will any longer be able to grow there. Alas! there comes the time when man will no longer launch the arrow of his longing beyond man -- and the string of his bow will have unlearned to whiz! I tell you: one must still have chaos in oneself, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: you have still chaos in yourselves. Alas! There comes the time when man will no longer give birth to any star. Alas! There comes the time of the most despicable man, who can no longer despise himself. Lo! I show you the Last Man. "What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?" -- so asks the Last Man, and blinks. The earth has become small, and on it hops the Last Man, who makes everything small. His species is ineradicable as the flea; the Last Man lives longest. "We have discovered happiness" -- say the Last Men, and they blink. They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they need warmth. One still loves one's neighbor and rubs against him; for one needs warmth. Turning ill and being distrustful, they consider sinful: they walk warily. He is a fool who still stumbles over stones or men! A little poison now and then: that makes for pleasant dreams. And much poison at the end for a pleasant death. One still works, for work is a pastime. But one is careful lest the pastime should hurt one. One no longer becomes poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wants to rule? Who still wants to obey? Both are too burdensome. No shepherd, and one herd! Everyone wants the same; everyone is the same: he who feels differently goes voluntarily into the madhouse. "Formerly all the world was insane," -- say the subtlest of them, and they blink. They are clever and know all that has happened: so there is no end to their derision. People still quarrel, but are soon reconciled -- otherwise it upsets their stomachs. They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health. "We have discovered happiness," -- say the Last Men, and they blink. _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Rinzler - Student 
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really weak thread shar, i'd like to say something like "i used to have respect for you man" but I don't know that I did or anything. Bringing up religion as a topic in any discussion is really poor and its like playing monopoly, you always end up in fights with your friends. Live and let live kids.
-Dane 'The Dane Train' Train S. Trainington of Danesbrough _______________ I fite for teh usars!1 |
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