| Conscription/national service/drafting | |
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planK - Jedi Council  |
Hey folks. As some of y'all may know, there's a bit of a recruitment crisis with the British Army at the moment. It's made a lot of folks, particularly in the service community, hope for the return of national service over here.
Now obviously folks will be dead set against it, but frankly I think it's a great thing. It'll help build character, and keep the yobs off the streets and put them to use. They'll also make a buck or two in the process. I know a few folks in the academy have a similar kind of service in their home country, and I was just wondering what you folks think of this thing.  |
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| Comments |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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This is going nowhere fast. As is per usual with these things.
You both taken turns landing cheap shots and retorical statements. Now I think it's time we move along to a diffrent playground. This one has no more areas to mark. *ka-ching* - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Jade Jedi - Retired 
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Quote:
Quote: What, how to eat pies?People need to stop citing Michael Moore as a source. The guy is an absolute master of spin. And eating pies.
I hear he taught Tony Bliar  _______________ *CLICKEH->Never risk the Fett Man|*Download my Saber here. Made by master craftsman Pink Floyd_Mintaka + his 2002 & 4000 comment's [Laz's 700th comment][BDKawika's 600th comment] & Owner of a TOWEL award!!|Master: Sared Padawans: Rage-Ball and Dante Eagle.|*Jade Jedi at The Jedi Academy Archives "There's only one Return and it's not of the King it's of the Jedi" Randal Clerks 2 The top 10 reasons why I procrastinate: 1. |
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Rinzler - Student 
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/me gives JP a choc-top icecream ^_^! _______________ I fite for teh usars!1 |
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Buzz - Student 
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Strawman, such as attempting to portray someone with statements like this:
Quote: I suspect that you might be one of the ever-diminishing percentage (41%) of Americans still clinging to the disproved belief that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda. Or worse, that Saddam Hussein actually helped plan or finance the terrorist attacks of 9/11 (22%), or worse that the weapons of mass destruction which supposedly justified the war were, in fact, real (26%).
You began by quoting sicko. The only kind of person dumb enough to bring up something from michael moore is someone who believes he is an honest individual. So its not much of a stretch to make the claim that you believe everything said in his other pieces of propaganda. I could also add that by your blatant hypocrisy, you further demonstrate yourself to be an acolyte of Moore. Most of your "well researched" information is garbage gleaned from media and liberal talking points that don't actually portray what reality actually is. Most of it I had the enjoyment of reading, seeing destroyed and helping destroy it at other places that dedicate their time to doing that. That's part of the reason I'm not taking much time here. What you state is worthless drivel I've heard rehashed over and over again, and when you actually look at the information its shown to be wrong. In other words, if I subtracted the crap you have stated that I have already seen thoroughly thrashed, I wouldn't even have to post a single thing. And actually the second part is not a conundrum fallacy. You want to reduce military spending. I have put forth several ways to reduce military spending. Let's face it we close our bases around the world, we no longer have to spend money to transport personnel to those bases or to spend money to upkeep them. Its not a conundrum. Its good financial sense. You might want to look up the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority." Because your previous post was full of it. And my only point on military spending is that the amount we spend is only about half of what we spend on social security and other health and human services. Here's the thing though, the government of the united states is required to spend money on its military. All that other stuff you bring up that it could spend money on that is a bunch of feel good, sounds nice, appeal to emotion ideas that the new york times list shouldn't be the responsibility of the federal government. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Jul 10 2007 10:55pm. |
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sm00th! - Student 
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Buzz, I would like to take this time to point out that your primary mechanism of argument is a logical fallacy known as the "straw man." For those who don't know what that is, read about it here. Suffice it to say that it is exceedingly futile to have a debate with somebody (you) who employs this tactic as a main line of defense (offense?), and if you insist on framing and toppling arguments I have not made, I will simply cease posting my well-researched and thought out commentary on this thread, and let the readers endure the stench of your undocumented and ad hominem arguments without reprieve.
In fact, it's almost a slap in the face for you to have posted the garbage you did, with nothing but your flimsy opinions and a budget graph flash mash up (that does not but re-hash the Wikipedia budget article I already linked to) as documentation. Your excuse for not providing documentation - that I believe everything said in a movie I never mentioned in any prior post - is both a prime example of the straw-man fallacy, and pretty lame. Further, your second mode of argument is yet another logical fallacy known as the Continuum fallacy. Read about the Continuum fallacy here. Here is one example of your use of the continuum fallacy as argument: Quote: You want to decrease military spending. Fine, let's pull out of Germany, Kosovo, South Korea, Japan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait. Let's stop using the military to engage in humanitarian missions. All that aid we sent to the pacific tsunami via the Navy, gone.
In total, if we subtract the fallacious arguments you made from the sound ones in your prior post, nearly nothing remains. Unfortunately, this means I have nothing to respond to. _______________ Go Ahead, Enlighten Yourself. |
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Jaina D'Kana - Jedi Instructor 
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Quote: People need to stop citing Michael Moore as a source. The guy is an absolute master of spin. And eating pies.
I hear he taught Tony Bliar _______________ INTP |
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JP - Academy Pimp 
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Fighting with Buzz when it comes to politics is like trying to win a fist fight with a break wall, sure you'll get to land your punches but they dont do shit except hurt yourself _______________ Come on now, every Generation X boy wanted to be Luke Skywalker. Is it because he was a whiney farm boy from some backwater hack planet? No, it's because he was a FREAKING JEDI. He could block lasers with his lightsaber. He could levitate droids & rocks & crap with his mind. Come on, he choked two pig dudes with just a simple gesture. He cut off Darth Vader's hand and kicked him down a flight of stairs. He got his @$$ zapped by lightning from the geezer Emperor, stood up and said "s'at all you got b!tc#??" |
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planK - Jedi Council 
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People need to stop citing Michael Moore as a source. The guy is an absolute master of spin. And eating pies. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Quote: Before I go into other things, I first want to say that the United States spends more than half of it's discretionary spending budget on funding the military, not GDP*
Let's forget about discretionary spending. The Total Budget is so much more interesting. http://www.thebudgetgraph.com/poster/ Its the bottom corner, and so so fascinating. Quote: the facts in Michael Moore's movies are overwhelmingly accurate
Facts, by the very definition of what they are, are accurate. The problem isn't Moore's facts. The problem is with the lies, half truths, editing tricks, deceits, misinformation, that he attempts to pass off as fact. Quote: But unfortunately (for all of us), and according to reports released by our own CIA, Iraq has become a breeding ground for terrorism
And most places when they are being honest after stating that will point out that our leaving would make it even WORSE. There's also the fact that a lot of those groups that were once fighting us in Iraq, are now fighting with us to kick out the foreign terrorists. Quote: I suspect that you might be one of the ever-diminishing percentage (41%) of Americans still clinging to the disproved belief that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda.
Strong links? no. Links to Al Qaeda, yes absolutely. If you didn't spend time reading talking points memos you'd know that as well. Quote: Or worse, that Saddam Hussein actually helped plan or finance the terrorist attacks of 9/11 (22%),
No those people are just uninformed. Of course you probably believe that because he didn't finance 9/11 he had no connections at all to terror groups, nevermind that he was paying the families of palestinian suicide bombers. Quote: or worse that the weapons of mass destruction which supposedly justified the war were, in fact, real (26%).
The UN had a list of what Saddam had. It was known what he had, and he was required to allow them to verify that these were destroyed. No verification was given for a lot of it being destroyed. In the lead up to the invasion with Iraq a lot of fishy stuff was happening involving Iraq, Syria and some Russian Generals. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But you probably believe everything Moore said in F9/11 is actually true. So pointing you to real information would be an exercise in futility. Quote: which for starters could be used to enact some of the measures recommended by the 9/11 commission report which we currently don't do (for lack of funding.) Article.
Something the democrats promised to do if they were given control of congress. Yet afterwards they changed their minds and still have not yet done this. Quote: I was not talking about economic sanctions, which by their nature take money away
I know you weren't. You're talking about playing suck boy to a bunch of people that hate us and our allies. You want to decrease military spending. Fine, let's pull out of Germany, Kosovo, South Korea, Japan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait. Let's stop using the military to engage in humanitarian missions. All that aid we sent to the pacific tsunami via the Navy, gone. Quote: vast increases in Katrina relief and rebuilding efforts.
Mississippi doesn't seem to need any extra increases in Katrina relief and building effort. Oh that's right they're not run by a corrupt disfunctional government like Louisiana and New Orleans are. For someone who believes michael moore is honest, taking anything else you say seriously would be an insult. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Jul 10 2007 05:36pm. |
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JP - Academy Pimp 
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Quote: /me sits down with some popcorn and one of those cute little choc-top icecreams
/me takes a seat and steals some of Dane's popcorn _______________ Come on now, every Generation X boy wanted to be Luke Skywalker. Is it because he was a whiney farm boy from some backwater hack planet? No, it's because he was a FREAKING JEDI. He could block lasers with his lightsaber. He could levitate droids & rocks & crap with his mind. Come on, he choked two pig dudes with just a simple gesture. He cut off Darth Vader's hand and kicked him down a flight of stairs. He got his @$$ zapped by lightning from the geezer Emperor, stood up and said "s'at all you got b!tc#??" |
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sm00th! - Student
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*Before I go into other things, I first want to say that the United States spends more than half of it's discretionary spending budget on funding the military, not GDP*
Quote: Using ANY information coming from a Michael Moore project, is like using me as an unbiased source for views on the Democratic Party.
I am not quite sure what this is even supposed to mean, since I don't offhandedly know your party affiliation. However, the facts in Michael Moore's movies are overwhelmingly accurate, as documented by the vast majority of mainstream media articles on the subject. Here is CNN's. Quote: Because attacks on our embassies, Naval vessels, and flying planes into buildings occurred only after the Iraq invasion. And they just couldn't recruit people to this cause beforehand.
I have to concede to your correctness on this straw-man-esque point - the invasion of Iraq did not predate the invention of terrorism. It did, however, predate the seven-fold increase in fatal Jihadist attacks worldwide since 2001. See Graph. Again, you are so devastatingly correct in stating that before the Iraq war, terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda were able to recruit members. But unfortunately (for all of us), and according to reports released by our own CIA, Iraq has become a breeding ground for terrorism. Article I suspect that you might be one of the ever-diminishing percentage (41%) of Americans still clinging to the disproved belief that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda. Or worse, that Saddam Hussein actually helped plan or finance the terrorist attacks of 9/11 (22%), or worse that the weapons of mass destruction which supposedly justified the war were, in fact, real (26%). Article. If this is the case, I cannot help you deal with your obstinate resistance to facts. Fortunately, we can all take solace in the knowledge that yours is a continually slimming minority, and hope for the best in 2008. Quote: If half of our GDP is spent on the military, then how does the government spend almost double that money on Social Security and Health and Human services?
These facts are wrong also, but so was my original ones, so I won't bother combating them directly. Rather, anybody interested in obtaining an educated perspective would be advised to read the wikipedia article here in which it states that Military spending accounts for more than half of government discretionary spending. For more analysis, check here and note that while spending as a percentage of GDP spiked drastically in 1945 and has since diminished, Military spending as a part of discretionary spending remained almost stable between then and now. Quote: Yes because economic sanctions did a bang up job removing Saddam from power. And sanctions are really making the Iranians reconsider their nuclear enrichment. And refusal to deal with Hamas has gotten them to revoke their pledge of the destruction of Israel.
You are so very correct, yet again - economic sanctions did virtually (actually) nothing at removing Saddam from power. Unfortunately (for you (again)), economic sanctions were never intended to remove Saddam from power. They were, however, intended to prevent Saddam from obtaining the capabilities necessary to wage war or create WMD's. In this role, as I'm sure you'll disagree with the 74% percent of us who didn't see WMD's unveiled en-mass after the invasion, they did an OK job. However, let me step backwards slightly, because it seems that you failed to understand my original point, so I will speak more slowly, to try to make it more clear for you. I was not talking about economic sanctions, which by their nature take money away. Rather, my point was that $1.2 Trillion dollars is alot of green, and that much money can buy a lot of love. Alternatively, if we didn't want to spend the money of love, we could alternatively have spent it to: double cancer research, a global immunization campaign that would save, rather than destroy, millions of lives, or treatment of every American citizen faced with untreated diabetes or heart conditions, universal free pre-school education for 3 and 4 year old children, vast increases in Katrina relief and rebuilding efforts. We would still have enough money left over to vastly increase the money spent on national security, which for starters could be used to enact some of the measures recommended by the 9/11 commission report which we currently don't do (for lack of funding.) Article. When looked at from this angle, it becomes almost ludicrous that we are spending this much money to fund such a destructive war. And with that, I would like to leave you all with buzz's final quote, pertaining to the only benefit his limited vision can realize, regarding mandatory military service. Gentlemen, please forgive his obtuseness. Quote: The only benefit to not having mandatory service in the US is that our soldiers know that the guys next to them chose of their own free will to be there. _______________ Go Ahead, Enlighten Yourself. |
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Rinzler - Student 
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/me sits down with some popcorn and one of those cute little choc-top icecreams _______________ I fite for teh usars!1 |
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Buzz - Student
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Using ANY information coming from a Michael Moore project, is like using me as an unbiased source for views on the Democratic Party.
Quote: It seems likely that the effect of America's current war will be the spread of the very terrorism that ostensibly caused it.
Because attacks on our embassies, Naval vessels, and flying planes into buildings occurred only after the Iraq invasion. And they just couldn't recruit people to this cause beforehand. Quote: Take a moment and consider that the United States historically spends more than half of its GDP on maintaining its military, leaving only smaller fractions of revenue pointed at sore spots on the home front
If half of our GDP is spent on the military, then how does the government spend almost double that money on Social Security and Health and Human services? Quote: Gravel postulated that we could have solved any middle eastern problems we may have had prior to the outbreak of war economically, and I have to agree with him on this issue.
Yes because economic sanctions did a bang up job removing Saddam from power. And sanctions are really making the Iranians reconsider their nuclear enrichment. And refusal to deal with Hamas has gotten them to revoke their pledge of the destruction of Israel. The only benefit to not having mandatory service in the US is that our soldiers know that the guys next to them chose of their own free will to be there. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Jul 10 2007 01:39am. |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
/prepares for the onslaught of anti-michael moore sentiment _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade 
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey 
Jools is my best friend. 
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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sm00th! - Student
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Everything you guys have said about military service sounds great: job training, improved job prospects, paid education. The only thing that doesn't sound quite so appetizing is the military service itself.
In the recent film "sicko," a commenter made a great point - "If we can have full employment in times of war, why shouldn't we be able to have full employment in times of peace?" It seems likely that the effect of America's current war will be the spread of the very terrorism that ostensibly caused it. Take a moment and consider that the United States historically spends more than half of its GDP on maintaining its military, leaving only smaller fractions of revenue pointed at sore spots on the home front - pesky leeches on our budget like our system of free k-12 education or social security. Democratic presidential candidate Mike Gravel postulated that we could have solved any middle eastern problems we may have had prior to the outbreak of war economically, and I have to agree with him on this issue. Sorry for the ramblage. In response to your original question, I hope you can understand that I would be strongly opposed to any kind of mandatory military service in the United States. _______________ Go Ahead, Enlighten Yourself. |
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Rinzler - Student
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meep meep *runs* _______________ I fite for teh usars!1 |
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Jade Jedi - Retired 
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/loads sack. Now where did I put Danes address? _______________ *CLICKEH->Never risk the Fett Man|*Download my Saber here. Made by master craftsman Pink Floyd_Mintaka + his 2002 & 4000 comment's [Laz's 700th comment][BDKawika's 600th comment] & Owner of a TOWEL award!!|Master: Sared Padawans: Rage-Ball and Dante Eagle.|*Jade Jedi at The Jedi Academy Archives "There's only one Return and it's not of the King it's of the Jedi" Randal Clerks 2 The top 10 reasons why I procrastinate: 1. |
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Rinzler - Student
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yeah well i got a solution for anders gunderson and i call it skipping town, BAMF!@
EDIT: on topic i think they should recruit chavs with a sack full of doorknobs in the middle of the night, if you've got enough time on your hands to walk the streets at night and harass people you've got enough time to defend your country. (honest hardworking/student types should be exempt from doorknob recruitment) *dances* _______________ I fite for teh usars!1 This comment was edited by Rinzler on Jul 08 2007 07:28am. |
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Kaldør - Student 
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A friend of mine from Norway, Anders Gundersen, was drafted last february. He's a marksman now. He enjoys it, but he doesn't want a full life of the service, nor should he have to have it. If war breaks out, he MUST stay with the army 'til he's 40  |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
dude, buzz - relax. i know you're not interested in being diplomatic but im sure there are better ways of telling shar hes hair-brained without saying an entire country is worthless "just cos hes in it". you're blatant and frank and i get that, but stop being a prick _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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JP - Academy Pimp
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Going back on target...i think every person should (if fit for duty) have to serve in the military. If they're not fit...do logistics or something while still gettin the snot beat out of you in boot camp. _______________ Come on now, every Generation X boy wanted to be Luke Skywalker. Is it because he was a whiney farm boy from some backwater hack planet? No, it's because he was a FREAKING JEDI. He could block lasers with his lightsaber. He could levitate droids & rocks & crap with his mind. Come on, he choked two pig dudes with just a simple gesture. He cut off Darth Vader's hand and kicked him down a flight of stairs. He got his @$$ zapped by lightning from the geezer Emperor, stood up and said "s'at all you got b!tc#??" This comment was edited by JP on Jul 07 2007 02:06am. |
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JP - Academy Pimp
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Quote: So be it .... American
thats right...kiss the rings biatch _______________ Come on now, every Generation X boy wanted to be Luke Skywalker. Is it because he was a whiney farm boy from some backwater hack planet? No, it's because he was a FREAKING JEDI. He could block lasers with his lightsaber. He could levitate droids & rocks & crap with his mind. Come on, he choked two pig dudes with just a simple gesture. He cut off Darth Vader's hand and kicked him down a flight of stairs. He got his @$$ zapped by lightning from the geezer Emperor, stood up and said "s'at all you got b!tc#??" |
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Menaxia - Student 
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learn to drop things shar or you'll have no teeth left. _______________ This is not the place to look for me |
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Shar - Ex-Student 
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Quote:
Quote:
Well lets ask him.
Buzz what did you mean when you called sweden a worthless little country ? Any place where you call home would qualify as a worthless little country in my book. When dealing with you yes sweden is a worthless little country. If you were in England, that would be a worthless little country. Because I will be an "ignorant American" for a moment and say for the most part how the rest of the world acts and operates doesn't concern me one bit as long as its not affecting me here. But even if you were in the United States, I would check which state you were in and severely question the merits of that states educational system since they allowed you to slip through the cracks with such an obvious lack of cognitive skill. Because that's what it boils down to. You are either extremely brainless or just arguing for the sake of arguing. This thread is now going to go back to what it was designed for and that will be the end of your little antics here. So be it .... American _______________ Bored of Psu Back to Gw I apologise in advance to all the people that will take offense to me saying my opinion. |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: Well lets ask him.
Buzz what did you mean when you called sweden a worthless little country ? Any place where you call home would qualify as a worthless little country in my book. When dealing with you yes sweden is a worthless little country. If you were in England, that would be a worthless little country. Because I will be an "ignorant American" for a moment and say for the most part how the rest of the world acts and operates doesn't concern me one bit as long as its not affecting me here. But even if you were in the United States, I would check which state you were in and severely question the merits of that states educational system since they allowed you to slip through the cracks with such an obvious lack of cognitive skill. Because that's what it boils down to. You are either extremely brainless or just arguing for the sake of arguing. This thread is now going to go back to what it was designed for and that will be the end of your little antics here. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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