| Political Discussion. | |
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Cuthalion - Padawan  |
Quote: Communism, in essence, is not possible with a large group of people and has been tried over and over again. No government follows their ideal doctrine word for word and even Stalin could be said to have attempted communism.
Sure it might sound absurd, knowing the Soviet Union was anything but classless, but even the United States' democracy is not truly a democracy (we do not technically pick our presidents, we pick who picks our presidents. So in a sense we are a blend of democracy with a touch of aristocracy). I maintain my stance saying that it has been practiced many times. Complete failures that mutated into something else, but all governments fail to meet their doctrines word for word. P.S: If you want to put it like that, no government is truly practiced (besides maybe dictatorships). They are all interpreted by those who establish the government. Quote:
Quote:
Communism, in essence, is not possible with a large group of people and has been tried over and over again. No government follows their ideal doctrine word for word and even Stalin could be said to have attempted communism.
Communism needs capitalism to survive 
and actually communism is based on capitalism economy, at first... So yes government should have followed their ideal doctrine word for word... It was just hard to them to admit that they need capitalism... So they weren't real communists
That's why their attempts went all wrong
So there isn't any proves that actual communism can't work in concretely... So my stance stays... But yeah I did notice also this might be a opinion in question... It is hard to fight with opinions and It is actually stupid to argue with opinions over internet... Now P.S Dun Dun Dunnnnn!!!! Who gets the last word... I'm sure It is not me... Because Amik needs to say the last word  (yeah I know this is unfair!)
But still Amik is awesome person <3 Quote: I think what Maher and Amik were trying to suggest to us, through analogy, was that whether actual communism failed or a failed implementation of communism failed is probably just a matter of semantics much like whether the master/padawan titles appear as official. Right? If two students are successful in developing such a rapport, it is unlikely either will care if they are allowed to declare this as official. I suspect it would only matter if they are foolish enough to proceed and declare it as official, for then surely the Jedi Council would have to hunt them down and PWN them, thereby making it more like a Sith Coucil. However, much like communism or a failed implementation of communism, as we all know, a Sith Council is inevitably doomed to degrade into an Imperium and finally we will be able to lame other students without consequence. Unfortunately, for the time being, no laming………………………..asked and answered.
Well we shall start with Communism. Please continue. Also feel free to say anything you like. _______________ <MaherSenatu> guh... you are just... I'll keep sure that your kind of people will never be knights... <MaherSenatu> That's my mission... Master to Kain Sol |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student 
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Quote: oh mesa likes Masta's point and now I remember actually something historial facts...
Lenin was attempting to put up the foundation of communism and Leon Trotsky should have been the follower of Lenin... Who would have - later on - actually executed the final plans to the great Soviet Union... Yet Stalin came and with his propanga... He keeled Trostky... 
EDIT: Typos! Fast thinking...etc EDIT: Also It is high possibility that Stalin keeled Lenin too that crazy he was  http://www.communistparty.info/ _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." |
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Maher - Jedi Knight 
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oh mesa likes Masta's point and now I remember actually something historial facts...
Lenin was attempting to put up the foundation of communism and Leon Trotsky should have been the follower of Lenin... Who would have - later on - actually executed the final plans to the great Soviet Union... Yet Stalin came and with his propanga... He keeled Trostky...
EDIT: Typos! Fast thinking...etc EDIT: Also It is high possibility that Stalin keeled Lenin too that crazy he was
Quote: what did lenin have in mind when he thought all this? if he thought he was doing communism then what is it THEN ?
''ah russian my homeland, how long I was exiled at germany, now I need to fullfil my duty for these plores..." _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Jan 17 2009 11:18pm. |
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SaZ - Student 
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Quote: So Lenin-Marxism wasn't communism... How many times I need to say that... *kicks, punches floors, walls, roof, messing around like little kid*
what did lenin have in mind when he thought all this? if he thought he was doing communism then what is it THEN ? doesnt that mean that he attempted communism? O_o
confusing lol also if the whole theory of communism makes it impossible to become reality... doesnt that make lenins thoughts that he is doing the real communism as communist-realistic as it can get? LOL _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 11:10pm. |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student 
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Now you see, I emphasized on the small picture. It does count for me! A failed attempt is an attempt nonetheless.
Also, different variations of communism is still communism to me. Every government is only a variation from it's original doctrine. I believe if you create your own variation of a government you are trying to emulate the original idea. And Masta, then we do agree! If he had tried to create an environment for communism to eventually take over in all its glory, then that's kinda what I'm saying. By that, he had tried to create communism. I'm not thinking politically about this, just a simple action of "trying". _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." This comment was edited by Augusta_Mintaka on Jan 17 2009 11:11pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: If agree that Lenin had tried communism, I believe so. That is the only idea that I was arguing. Then we don't agree after all. He might've had the intention to do it, and he probably would have liked to, but he never even came close to actually attempting to put Communism into practice. As you said: he lacked the prerequisits for that. We can agree that he tried to set a foundation for the eventual emergence of Communism, but failed in the process. That doesn't really tell us much about the quality of the theory though - that's what i meant by 'infering the possibility of cooking a fish via your inability to do it in the fridge'. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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So Lenin-Marxism wasn't communism... How many times I need to say that... *kicks, punches floors, walls, roof, messing around like little kid*
EDIT: Exact quote! Quote: So It was a bad attempt! which doesn't count.. _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Jan 17 2009 11:05pm. |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student
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Yeah!
You proved me right with it too! You said "bad attempt" which counts enough for me! _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." This comment was edited by Augusta_Mintaka on Jan 17 2009 11:03pm. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Did you read this!
Quote:
Quote: communism has been attempted
Nope It isn't... and I can tell you the fact from the book of capital... Written by Karl Marx, and third chapter interpreted by Engels... Which, by the way, is base of marxism ideal and a only right way to the communism... But yet nobody has tried it
Lenin made his own ways... that's how a way of Lenin-Marxism was born... and later on crazy Stalin with his own Stalin-Marxism... and I have read both so called isms... It is shame that Karl Marx really haven't time to finish the capital theory... but still Its knowledge is in use at today's system, not in total but still some things from it works... Anywhoo Marx has been said that there need to be decent capitalism before communism and socialism... Yet Lenin jumped from feudal time to communism without improving any kind of economy system... So It is kind of obvious that, that kind of communism won't work
So It was a bad attempt! which doesn't count... due to foundation was wrong so obviously the ideal is wrong... etc EDIT: To be more clear
Those so called ''attempts'' are just interpretations from real communism _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student
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If agree that Lenin had tried communism, I believe so. That is the only idea that I was arguing. _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: Let's say you read a recipe on how to cook fish and you tried to cook fish with steak! You can't say Lenin and other communist leaders had no idea what communism was. They likely did, but couldn't meet all the prerequisites.
So we agree! And Masta, I can't think of witty things to say so I just said the first thing I could. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student
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I'm pretty sure Lenin would have known more about communism than any of us here! Had he tried communism? In my opinion, yes. Like I said before, if we follow that logic then we cant really consider the US a democracy.
+what saz said _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." This comment was edited by Augusta_Mintaka on Jan 17 2009 11:00pm. |
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SaZ - Student 
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Quote:
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You can't say Lenin and other communist leaders had no idea what communism was.
Yes I can and that's all what I have been trying to be explaining ^^ what if they THOUGHT they had an idea while they were miles away from the real idea? _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 10:59pm. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight 
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Quote: You can't say Lenin and other communist leaders had no idea what communism was.
Yes I can and that's all what I have been trying to be explaining ^^
EDIT My very first explanition on the subject
Quote:
Quote: communism has been attempted
Nope It isn't... and I can tell you the fact from the book of capital... Written by Karl Marx, and third chapter interpreted by Engels... Which, by the way, is base of marxism ideal and a only right way to the communism... But yet nobody has tried it
Lenin made his own ways... that's how a way of Lenin-Marxism was born... and later on crazy Stalin with his own Stalin-Marxism... and I have read both so called isms... It is shame that Karl Marx really haven't time to finish the capital theory... but still Its knowledge is in use at today's system, not in total but still some things from it works... Anywhoo Marx has been said that there need to be decent capitalism before communism and socialism... Yet Lenin jumped from feudal time to communism without improving any kind of economy system... So It is kind of obvious that, that kind of communism won't work
So It was a bad attempt! which doesn't count... due to foundation was wrong so obviously the ideal is wrong... etc EDIT: To be more clear
Those so called ''attempts'' are just interpretations from real communism _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Jan 17 2009 10:58pm. |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student
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Let's say you read a recipe on how to cook fish and you tried to cook fish with steak! You can't say Lenin and other communist leaders had no idea what communism was. They likely did, but couldn't meet all the prerequisites.
And Masta, I can't think of witty things to say so I just said the first thing I could. _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." This comment was edited by Augusta_Mintaka on Jan 17 2009 10:56pm. |
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SaZ - Student
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Quote:
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that could happen coz of extremely big global catastrophy or something
So what's this global warming, what everybody are talking about... hmm ? according to some scientists the whole 'global warming' is a natural cycle of earth that is only affected by polution etc by like 5% or maybe even less. nature doesnt build utopia or dystopia for societies/ppl etc. nature ir just... natural and doesnt care for those retarded life forms also called humans. tho i might be wrong, but imo the real utopia or dystopia is something that is touched by humankind. and while humans change earth a lot, they dont bend it to their will or destroy it enough to be 'touched'. hm. Quote: and lets say that cook didn't know how to cook the steak... So what the hack he's trying for ?
why is he called cook in the first place? _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 10:54pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Quote: You can try to cook a steak in a refrigerator, but it isn't really plausible. In the same fashion the Soviet Union had tried to implement communism (at one point at least). I think people misinterpret me when I say try. Fair enough, but why infer about the possibility of cooking a steak via your inability to cook it in the fridge?
Oh and, i like Shar... except that he... hasn't talked to me in years. Bastard. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: Nobody can master the art of multi-topic debating as Shar once had!
okey okey... Amik... I would rather use metaphora like you are trying to cook stake with frying pan and you miss the medium of it... 
yet the last result isn't a medium, you did over-cooked stake! and lets say that cook didn't know how to cook the steak... So what the hack he's trying for ? _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student
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Nobody can master the art of multi-topic debating as Shar once had! _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: that could happen coz of extremely big global catastrophy or something
So what's this global warming, what everybody are talking about... hmm ? _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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SaZ - Student
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Quote: and Saz, if you think Utopia is impossible so is Dystopia! Which we are living at the moment...
good things can be better and bad things can be worse. thats why the ultimate 'goals' of utopia or dystopia can never be reached. we will always be in the middle, unless we are suddenly brought to lets say dystopia. that could happen coz of extremely big global catastrophy or something. then again after awhile people would get used to it and then ppl would think the obvious thing again 'it sux, but it could be worse'. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student
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Quote: Anyways.. moving on.
Amik, you say that Communism has been tried over and over again, and has failed everytime. First and foremost, you should be aware of the fact that Communism can only be put into practice under certain, specific conditions. Any country violating these integral conditions cannot, by definition, be possibly considered a Communism. In either case, there is a historical methodology called Historical Materialism, of which the most relevant part for us here is the natural development of history according to man's relations towards labour and nature, as per Locke. According to Communist Philosophy, this history follows a path whereby Communism can be realized at a sufficiently advanced stage. This stage presupposes Capitalism - not agrarianism, not primitivism or feudalism etc., but a well industrialized capitalist society harboring an extensively urbanized and well established Proletariat. This alone excludes pretty much any historical example of Communism you might be considering - Russia, China, Cambodia, etc. Besides that, a Communist revolution must be executed and led by the Proletariat (according to Marx), and have (according to Lenin) an intelligentsia acting on behalf of it. Again, this pretty much excludes every and all possible historical examples, with the sole exception of the October Revolution, which was almost undone by Lenin's NEP, and completely destroyed once Stalin came into power. Next thing to consider is that Communism, as outlined by Marx, is itself a classless, property-less, stateless system. Now, except maybe for pre-colonial African communities, none of the possible historical examples have met these conditions. Such a system presupposes the collective ownership of the means of productions; and under such a system, people don't really occupy 'jobs' in the capitalist sense, nor do they receive a 'wage'. They do not own property, nor do they own land, but rather work for the good of the community. Any agrarian society run by the state is therefore not a Communism. Anything 'run by the state' is not a Communism. Any system with a leader is not Communism. Anykind of system that has 'parties' or even a government, is by definition not a Communism. I can't say I have the passion to debate the topic further at the moment, but I could say I simply meant communism has been tried. I never said it was tried correctly, but tried nonetheless. You can try to cook a steak in a refrigerator, but it isn't really plausible. In the same fashion the Soviet Union had tried to implement communism (at one point at least). I think people misinterpret me when I say try. _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: Next thing to consider is that Communism, as outlined by Marx, is itself a classless, property-less, stateless system.
While It is also outlined by Marx that all this stuff need more mutual sense rather than following blindly and slavely those guidelines...
It isn't going like ooooh you have two sacks of grain more than me... You need to give off that other one to me!!! Everybody are getting as much as what they are needing and nothing less or more
EDIT: and Saz, if you think Utopia is impossible so is Dystopia! Which we are living at the moment... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Jan 17 2009 10:36pm. |
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SaZ - Student
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Quote: Different kind of economy? What economy does Africa run on, Saz? I'd be very interested to hear that one.
honestly - i have no idea. maybe i have, but im not one of those people who can say exact things, facts or remember every word of anything. doesnt matter what that is really... a conversation with friend, lyrics of a song or facts about some continents/countries economy. but if it was the same/simmilar to lets say european, we wouldnt have this conversation. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 10:27pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Different kind of economy? What economy does Africa run on, Saz? I'd be very interested to hear that one. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council 
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Edit: I just realised I'm repeating what Masta said.
In short the proles seem happily suppressed with their lottery tickets and double think. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on Jan 17 2009 10:23pm. |
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