| [Spoilers] Mass Effect 3: Endings | |
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Dash Starlight - Jedi Instructor  |
Hey everyone,
I recently finished playing Mass Effect 3 and its ending has been cause for quite a bit of debate, discussion and controversy. I know there are more people here in the JA besides myself interested in the ME Series, so I thought we could discuss the endings as I'd like to hear your different takes and opinions on them. 
The most criticism I've heard is that the endings are rather similar, contrary to what Bioware has promised us in the past. Furthermore, I read that the ending(s) also didn't seem to make sense, that there were plotholes and that there was a lack of closure. Now, there are different schools of thought here. Some say the endings are fine as they are, as Bioware is entitled to create whatever ending(s) as they see fit. It's their game afterall. Others claim that Bioware should patch things up and release new endings, including a happy one. If this happens, it will probably done in the form of DLC that will be either free for download or needs to be purchased. Next to that, I've also heard an interesting theory that the whole ending was nothing but an indoctrination of the Reapers. The 'kid' we meet at the end claims to be the catalyst, but he's actually the boy who gets killed at the start of the game and haunts Shepard's nightmares. This is a hint that maybe he's 'dreaming' again, now. Killing the Reapers shows Anderson (a 'good' character) and letting them live shows The Illusive Man (an 'evil'character). Yet the first option seems to be a Renegade option (red) and the second a Paragon action (blue). This confusion would only make sense in a dreamstate. Finally, Shepard is seen alive surrounded by rubble, but if you look closely, it appears to be stone - rubble from Earth. So he's still actually lying on the ground and never got onto the Citadel. If you agree with this anyways! So yeah, what I'd like to hear are your thoughts concerning the endings of Mass Effect 3. Did you think they were good / good enough or should Bioware release new ones (for free)? Do you agree with the whole 'Shepard was indoctrinated, the ending(s) werent real' theory? _______________ The name is Bond. James Bond. This post was edited by Dash Starlight on Mar 31 2012 07:28pm. |
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How should this situation be resolved?
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Pretty much. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Dash Starlight - Jedi Instructor 
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I (think I) see where you're coming from. I see Reapers more like the 'only solution possible' for those (the StarChild) who didn't see the synthesis option. _______________ The name is Bond. James Bond. This comment was edited by Dash Starlight on Apr 18 2012 06:27pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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The question is whether group conflict is truly inevitable or just an axiom that the game postulates (like the existence of eezo that we have to accept for the ME universe to work). I think both is the case: Group conflict and social struggle will always exist, which in turn can cause discrimination, violence, war etc. but at the same time the ME universe seems to postulate that the final singularity will be necessarily hostile in one way or another (which is the sole reason why the reapers exist - they want to prevent that from happening). _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Dash Starlight - Jedi Instructor
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I'm currently replaying ME all the way from ME 1 and I'm starting to think that the Synthesis ending is intended as the 'best' option of the Mass Effect 3 endings.
My first argument for that theory is simply that the 'control' and 'destroy' options are available even at the lowest EMF rating. Synthesis is the ending you have to work for to get it. More importantly, I just came across an AI in ME 1 (in the Financial District at the Citadel). It told me that organics will either seek to control or destroy synthetic life. They both are presented as negative options. My initial reaction would be 'cant we all just live together, maybe even help each other with a mutual benefit?'. I think this is exactly what happens with the Synthesis ending. Possibly, the idea behind the ME storyline could be that different groups, with conflicting opinions/values/ideas/cultures/etc, can choose to either dominate/control the other or destroy them to resolve the conflict. However, if they choose to accept their differences and work together they each have something to gain. Something like that anyway. So, with that said, I think the Synthesis ending is what BioWare has intended as the 'good' ending. I also like how these three options go back all the way to ME1 - it shows the endings didn't fall out of thin air as completely as I had imagined earlier (eventhough I'd still like to see them explained better). Your thoughts? _______________ The name is Bond. James Bond. This comment was edited by Dash Starlight on Apr 15 2012 04:18pm. |
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SaZ - Student 
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Quote: so we might see non-shepard focused sequels come out, despite what the heck happened at the end.
considering how new this mass effect universe is id say it has enough depth for any kind of new scenario. i wouldnt mind some kind of you know star wars movies -> kotor kind of transition. we got all these interesting races, planets, ideas how stuff works in the galaxy, technology etc... you can create anything now. the exception ofcourse is that in star wars the main idea is the force and main characters are always more or less dealing with it one way or another. in mass effect there is no such uniting element apart from mass relays and reapers, but... i think the problem with that is obvious. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Fair.
Point is, there's no deus ex machina in the ending. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff 
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@Masta: Yeah I never sided with JC in DE2 either.  _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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Dash Starlight - Jedi Instructor
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Quote: The plant object in the ending is called dream_plant03.
I see, I failed to catch onto that, it just shows I'm not very observant!
I´m seriously looking forward to this summer, when the DLC ´The Truth´ is planned to come out. Whilest it doesn´t offer any different endings it is said to explain events more clearly. I´m perfectly fine with that, Bioware should end this story as they want to, although a little more explanation is more than welcome. The fact that it´s free shows they actually seem to have listened to thousands of fans while asking nothing in return. It does mean the Indoctrination Theory is officially falsified. I´m curious how Bioware is planning to explain all the seeming contradictions and plotholes, but I won´t judge before I´ve actually played through it. This is great news altogether.
Quote: I need to stop talking about this game, I always end up writing too much.
 Nah, feel free to post as much as you like man. I'll be here to read it at any rate. _______________ The name is Bond. James Bond. This comment was edited by Dash Starlight on Apr 06 2012 09:25pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Firing the crucible is kinda the point (and logical outcome of the events) of me3 and just merely including a few options that affect the way that the crucible will fire towards the end (in whatever way, be they buttons on a console or shooting some canister) does not constitute a deus ex machina at all. It's not an unexpected intervention by some other event or anything - sure, the catalyst was unexpected, but his solution was not: The point is to fire the crucible and he's giving you options for doing just that. He's not using his powers to solve everything, he's just enabling you to do what you were supposed to do throughout the entire game.
Now, when we speak deus ex machina, the crucible becomes somewhat of an interesting case: It was supposed to solve the reaper problem in some way, it's existence is not hinted at anywhere prior to me3 and the plans being dug up on mars at that exact moment is a bit tricky. So yeah, if there's a deus ex machina, it's probably the crucible because of how it suddenly came into existence and is supposed to solve the issue of the reaper invasion. People don't seem too bothered about that for some reason, probably because it's laid out as a premise at the very beginning of the game (a bit like Shepard's resurrection in me2). EDIT: I like the synthesis ending a lot and I think it's quite a nice way to finish a series like that. It reminds me a bit of the ending of deus ex 2 which I thought was one of the few things that were good about the game. Unfortunately I think EA wants to squeeze more money out of mass effect, so we might see non-shepard focused sequels come out, despite what the heck happened at the end. Not sure about this though, prequels are just as likely, I guess (think dx3). _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. This comment was edited by Masta on Apr 06 2012 05:24pm. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff 
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Quote: Come at me bro. I've already given two examples of how the things people call 'stupid' or say that they 'don't make sense' are usually either unexplained events or due to people's lack of imagination.
Hehe I was really just referring to the hordes of people complaining about the ending, the BSN is an even crazier place than usual right now for example. Personally, the things I consider "stupid" are those that conflict with previously established rules of the series, as I simply see no need for that. Also, I find the starchild a pretty stupid plot mechanic that came from almost no-where and whose presence simplifies far too much for me. I'm not fond of the Synthesis ending either really. Mostly because it's unexplained to be fair, but everything about it that -is- explained in the series points at it being bad quite different and Not A Good Thing. Again it sort of comes out of nowhere in ME3, not the theme (organics finding peace with synthetics) which is one of the overriding plot points of the series, but the deus ex machina approach to it. I would have much preferred an ending where organic life and synthetic life has to find a way to live together without such frilly unexplained space magic, the Geth/Quarian storyline was fantastic in this regard and felt cheapened by the ending somewhat. Not to mention that would truly be beating the Reapers, proving them wrong yet again. Oh and as it stands the Normandy scene is pretty ridiculous, I mean it takes 'no explanation or apparent reason' to new heights, but I will agree that it's mostly because it's unexplained. According to everything we're told they should all die simply from dropping out of FTL like that though heh. I have happily imagined up my own explanation for a bunch of this stuff but it's much nicer to see it all making sense in the game. I mean we're not talking interpretation for a lot of this (some things should be left up to the player's imagination afterall), some of it just plain lacked proper explanation and comes across as more than a bit daft because of it. If this extended ending sorts out the unexplained stuff then the whole thing would bother me a lot less. I may not entirely agree with the direction they took for the ending, but if it's coherent and makes sense then fair enough really! (Oh and regardless, in my headcanon starkid was lying or wrong about it killing all synthetics, my Geth-Quarian Utopia must live damnit. Kinda hope the extra clarification doesn't make this impossible...) I need to stop talking about this game, I always end up writing too much. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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I think it's great that they take feedback so seriously. I agree that people are not really in a position to demand anything, but I don't see anything wrong with criticism. Bioware also took a middle road between keeping in touch with their own ideas while giving everyone else more closure; so it's basically more of the same thing, which is great in any regard.
EDIT: Another thing that comes into play in this case is the fact that Bioware can almost be sued for false advertisement, considering the amount of stuff they promised in pre-release interviews. This is a very serious issue and should not be taken lightly. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. This comment was edited by Masta on Apr 06 2012 11:50am. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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This is a blow to gaming right here, consumers are being given too much power it's a shame they caved in to the fans demands in all honesty, while yeah I understand some were underwhelmed by the ending it's madness to demand extended things just because you feel cheated or so.
Sad sad times _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Come at me bro. I've already given two examples of how the things people call 'stupid' or say that they 'don't make sense' are usually either unexplained events or due to people's lack of imagination. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff
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I think one or two people would disagree with you on that point, but each to their own. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Except that there's barely any stupid stuff at all.
Regardless, I'm not sure what they're going to do with the indoc theory, but I do agree that it seems like an elaborated ending might not be compatible with what the community has cooked up so far. We will see though; I'm quite excited and can't wait to check it out. The issue here is that the majority of the more articulate criticism attacks the ending's dissociation from the rest of the game and I'm having a hard time imagining how bioware could possibly address that with a mere extension of the ending sequence. But again, can't wait to see. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff
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Well, very few people I spoke to thought it would happen but it's coming - free DLC. The only way to save some of their rep from this PR disaster.
The rest? I suspect this is the final nail in the coffin of the Indoc theory. The bullet point about changing the endings just seems aimed at it somehow. That said, looking at all the stuff people have raised about the Indoc theory, and going back over some of the pre-release stuff, I suspect this was something they considered having in the game but was later removed and changed. Similar to how it would originally have been about Dark Matter destroying the universe. Will be interesting how they make some of the REALLY stupid stuff fit though. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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More details on the new DLC on the bioware blog:
http://blog.bioware.com/2012/04/05/mass-effect-3-extended-cut/ _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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The plant object in the ending is called dream_plant03.
And yes they've mentioned multiple times that they won't change the ending but rather elaborate on it with the next DLC. PAX will give us more info - it's from the 6th to the 8th or so of April. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Dash Starlight - Jedi Instructor 
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Quote: I'm... not sure if I get it, lol. But this is certainly the place to post ME-related images!
On another note, has anyone heard any news updates concerning DLC or something similar that will alter/improve the endings? _______________ The name is Bond. James Bond. This comment was edited by Dash Starlight on Apr 05 2012 11:03am. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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I'll just leave this here. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Alex Dkana - Staff
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My favourite theory is that he is the visual manifestation (the ghostly image) of the Reapers indoctrination attempts yeah. Even if he was real originally (which is debated).
I find it highly suspicious that BioWare went to the trouble of recording Jen Hale and Mark Meer saying the apparitions lines and then overlaying it all together. It ties in with the fresh gunshot wound theory that says Shepard is fighting/talking to her own subconcious/it's how her mind is perceiving the indoctrination. He also refers to himself as 'us' and I've seen people refer to him as a synthetic (he certainly disappears if you destroy 'all synthetic life'). However I do not believe any concrete answer is given either way. _______________ To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield | Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken | Rhaiko D'kana - SWTOR EU Guild Co-Founder | Is it what the teacher, teaches? Or what the student learns? A Dkana |
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Dash Starlight - Jedi Instructor
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Well, I found a reference to (the illusion of) 'ghostsly presences' in Mass Effect in the Codex (under "Indoctrination" ). Now, let's consider this boy:
- he appears on Earth (in solid form) but is only seen by Shepard. He suddenly disappears when Shepard tried to help him; - he appears in Shepards nightmares where he also suddenly disappears at the ends. However, these are only nightmares and the dreamstate can account for such a thing happening; - the boy is white & transparent at the Citadel and has the ability to move from his spot, unlike V.I.'s. He also seems to have an aura around him inlike V.I.'s. He surely seems to act like a ghostly presence. If so, it could further support the Indoctrination Theory. But I admit that this argument is very, very weak as its only a one-sided interpretation. There are other explanations possible, like with the dark mist and Shepards injury. So yeah, I think the idea is farfetched, but I find it interesting to consider nonetheless. _______________ The name is Bond. James Bond. This comment was edited by Dash Starlight on Apr 04 2012 12:16pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Wiki says it's a hologram, but it's not referenced. The nature of the catalyst is just left unexplained though, so we cannot be sure. There's no indication of the existence of ghosts or souls throughout Mass Effect though; there are some references to various religions (think Thane, Ashley) and viewpoints that refer to souls (think the Geth), none of which are depicted as either true or false or state that souls/ghosts exists or do not exist. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Dash Starlight - Jedi Instructor
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I'm loving this discussion. Another thought: is it possible that the boy is in fact a ghost? I thought of him as a VI, but he might not be. I've never seen a white VI, although that in itself says nothing. Since VI's can be red or blue, I guess they can easily be white also. However, I've not seen a VI move from its spot and the boy does. This could mean he's some advanced VI or something... but I think it's at least reasonable to interpret him as a ghost, since he's white & transparent.
EDIT: That theory might have some loopholes to be honest, but I gotta run now _______________ The name is Bond. James Bond. This comment was edited by Dash Starlight on Apr 03 2012 06:00pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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@Alex: The Normandy crashing on a garden planet is improbable, not unreasonable. It's as improbable as Shepard's chances of survival throughout the entire series, to speak with EDI. Many of the things surrounding that part of the ending are just not explained at all though; they are lacking in details. We just don't know why Joker was in FTL flight to begin with. That, however, does not mean this part makes no sense or it happened for no reason - it's just unexplained. The upcoming DLC will address that.
As for food and static discharge: I've already covered that in my previous post. There's no reason to think they would not have the scanning technology available for detecting objects that could be used for discharge and with that plotting the best possible route. As for the rest, I'm not sure what your point is. I agree that the indoc theory is pretty neat, but I don't think it explains away inconsistencies or anything like that, because quite frankly there are none, or at least no major ones. I do agree that the ending is not a particularly good one due to the mechanics behind it (push a button) and the fact that a lot of things seem very confusing there (anderson's entry) or left unexplained (the normandy, synthesis) or don't quite fit with what the game set out to be (3 choices for everyone, well, almost), but I think it's quite unfair to claim that it is entirely unreasonable. I mean, alright, I'll use another example: Quote: The mind boggling way the Starchild apparently built a way to control or destroy his solution (and himself) on the secret Citadel area, which would only work in conjunction with a giant ship thing that hadn't even been started yet and would taken millenia to complete. The catalyst didn't build anything - he barely can do anything without intervention. He's more of an overseer/observer than a godchild and he's IN the citadel, not the citadel itself. This is why he said he needs you to make a decision for him and to actually activate the crucible yourself; if he's not able to activate the crucible himself, why should he be able to tinker with the citadel's functions at all? As for the structures, surely it's not at all implausible that the crucible just changed whatever initial functions they might have had. How those things exactly work is unfortunately left unexplained, but I think the catalyst might have helped with the repurposing. Maybe they were just placeholders for your decision - just telling the catalyst your choice before jumping into the beam might have done the trick as well, idk; everything blows up regardless. Activating the crucible is probably only possible through self-sacrifice in any case. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. This comment was edited by Masta on Apr 03 2012 05:08pm. |
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