| SPOILER ALERT! Matrix Reformatted Review/Discussion | |
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ioshee - Student  |
DISCLAIMER: this post is full of opinions that may be contrary to your own. If we don’t see eye to eye about something please don’t hate me. I love you and hopefully our friendship goes deeper than our views on a film (or saga if you’re an extremist )Overall I was very disappointed. I have never really liked the Wachowski brother’s writing, but this scrip was terrible. I couldn’t shift gears fast enough to keep up with the rapid jumps from cheesy MTV one liners to deep philosophical discussions. I really wouldn’t mind total popcorn action, or a really meaningful and complex plot and I think it’s very innovative to try to combine things but they didn’t pull it off well in my opinion. I consider myself a fan of Asian cinema, and I think of the Wachowski brothers like a true punk thinks of sum41 or Avril Latrine. The choreography was very nice, and sometimes that’s enough to save a movie. But this one took itself too seriously to get past all of its melodramatic fluff. Now I have a few questions for those who understood it better than I did. -Did I understand correctly that “the one” (Neo in this case) had to choose between picking twenty something new people to start a new Zion or trying to fight and being responsible for letting everyone die? -Which one did he choose? -Was Zion destroyed? -What is the “purpose” of agent smith? I know I have more but I can’t think of them right now, so I’ll let you guys start hating me and then maybe I’ll remember. _______________ One of the Belouve boys This post was edited by ioshee on May 15 2003 11:03pm. |
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Fizz of Belouve - Student 
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the dude that stuffed Monica Berlucci into that plastic-wrap has to be terminated. _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
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ioshee - Student 
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I thought of another one-liner that I found totally unnecessary. “I love French… especially to curse with… It’s like wiping your @$$ with silk.” I don’t mind bathroom humor and silly cussing for laughs sometimes, but not in a movie that takes itself as seriously as the matrix. Maybe if Jim Carey had played the lead it would have worked better. _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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doobie - Jedi Council 
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I actually paid attention intently during the Oracle speech and... Neo never eats the candy. She gives him the piece, and SHE eats it, but we never see him eat it (and I doubt he ate it after getting slapped around by the Smiths) _______________ -Academy Leader/Dictator/Defeater of DJ Sith and JACen Solo in the JAK+ Tournament -I do think it (the JA) will help convert dozens, maybe hundreds, to the dork nation... --me |
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Buzz - Student 
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You'd then have to assume that the architect was lieing to Neo about what would happen. Since the Source according to the architect is that Neo would choose the group of people to continue Zion thus fulfilling the prophecy since he would save Zion by doing that. I think someone mentioned about Neo eating the candy that would then allow him to stop the sentinels. After thinking about it this could be true. You can look at the woman eating the piece of dessert as something vulgar and just a tasteless grab at smut, or a type of clue. They can "program" food to cause certain things to occur to a person. The cake has that effect on the woman. The candy could allow Neo to have in a sense new programming to stop the sentinels. And if you remeber in The Matrix, the Oracle had Neo eat a cookie. Could that be what made him The One? Of course after Neo died he was able to see the Matrix, and could tell when someone wasn't a person but a program, and could also see the differences in that cake. Why wouldn't he be able to see the difference in the candy as well? Edit* I stand corrected. If I go to see it again I'll have to watch and see if he does eat the candy. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on May 20 2003 10:49pm. |
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ioshee - Student 
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"Whoa..." _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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doobie - Jedi Council 
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I just saw the movie again and noticed something that has gotten glossed over a bit... Neo never actually entered the Source. The room with the Architect was merely another room before he got to the Source. You can tell this when the Architect says "Go to the right and enter the Source, choose 23 people, yada yada"... That implies that the One hasn't been to the Source yet. Therefore, when Neo tells Morpheus that the prophecy was a lie, he's wrong, since the prophecy hasn't been disproven yet, it simply has yet to be fulfilled. _______________ -Academy Leader/Dictator/Defeater of DJ Sith and JACen Solo in the JAK+ Tournament -I do think it (the JA) will help convert dozens, maybe hundreds, to the dork nation... --me |
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ioshee - Student
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Dicemaster said: "He was an exiled program just like the key maker" The key maker wasn't an exiled program. Right before the Agent was about to delete him the key maker said, "We only do what we are meant to do" which gives the impression that no program is exiled even if they think they are. They are still part of the system and can be manipulated by it. You’re right SirBiz, they are putting a lot of emphasis on the idea that neo is human. That makes me believe he is just a program even more. _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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SirBizNatch - Student 
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what gets me is the motif "He's still just human" "Your only human" etc.... kinda foreshadowing dont ya think? _______________ Personal body guard to teh 1337 Jacen Aratan! Midbie Council Memeber||Member of the Almighty FiZZsters |
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Dicemaster - Student 
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Neo had a choice, he free'd Smith, so why wouldn't smith have a choice. I am not certain no, but i belive that smith is simply trying to take over his own way or something like that -Dice _______________ Dicemaster |
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Buzz - Student
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Are you absolutely certain Smith still isn't some part of the system in a certain way? Similar to the way Morpheus was supposed to locate the One or Neo was supposed to discover his abilities. Smith could be there to be doing exactly what he has been doing. Copying himself, downloading into a person's mind. It seemed to me that he was the lead agent before Neo "destroyed" him. Afterall if the people don't really have a choice since the matrix knows what they will do before it happens why would one of the computer programs running in the Matrix actually have a choice? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Dicemaster - Student
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For those of you taht still think Zion was destryoed, go pay closer attention to the last few minutes of the show. Zion was not destroyed, just its first line of defense. The next movie, Matrix Revolutions, coming out in Novemeber, is about the battle. It will pick up where this one left off, and tell us all if Zion lives or dies. The one was always ment to figure out his power, and get to the sorce, and the sorce told him to pick 16 new ppl, 7 male and 9 female to repopulate zion for the next matrix. If he chose the other day all of zion would be destroyed and so would the matrix, there by ending humanity. Um....so yeah ZION IS STILL THERE, it might not be after matrix revolutions, but we will find out then. and agent smith, no longer had anything to do with the matrix. He was an exiled program just like the key maker, and is simply coping himself, and trying to kill neo, or take over the matrix instead of neo. So yeah theres that -Dice _______________ Dicemaster |
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doobie - Jedi Council
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Here's a thought I had... What if the candy that the oracle gave neo was really just a wireless program, designed to work with the body's natural wavelengths in order to communicate with the machines in the real world. neo could then stop the squiddies by simply running a denial of service attack on them over his personal wireless network, causing them to freeze and crash (but draining all of neo's energy in the process, since human wireless is probably pretty tiring) _______________ -Academy Leader/Dictator/Defeater of DJ Sith and JACen Solo in the JAK+ Tournament -I do think it (the JA) will help convert dozens, maybe hundreds, to the dork nation... --me |
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ioshee - Student
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Sleepyd, you obviously haven’t seen much Asian cinema because there are TONS of visual effects in a lot Asian movies. I compare the two because the Wachowski brothers admit to being heavily influenced by it and it shows. Being influenced by something is great and it’s what art is all about, but it calls for comparison when you site your influences, and they didn’t measure up in my opinion. What do you mean, “It’s all original within the context of the entire story.” Do you mean they don’t repeat themselves so everything is original within the story? I’m talking about original in general and at that they totally failed. Every monologue was such a melodramatic cliché fest that I couldn’t help laughing. I couldn’t tell if they really wanted me to take it seriously or just to enjoy the cheesy popcorn blockbusterness of it. The cheesy MTV one-liners I’m talking about are stuff like: “She wasn’t kissing your face my love...” “They need you”…”I need YOU” (said in voice used in Bill and Ted’s Bogus Journey) “She will be the death of me..” And almost all of Morpheus’ speech to Zion And they are not one-liners, but general adolescent content included the whole pie program scene and the MTV spring break dace party in Zion sequence. Overall I think the Wachowski brothers decided to forgo subtle fan service and go straight for raunchy sleaze. Also a lot of the fight sequences looked forced. Sing Ngai (aka Collin Chou) was excellent and Carrie-Anne does a good job, but Keanu, Laurence and Hugo all looked pretty clunky. Oh and I have to give credit to Adrian and Neil Rayment. They did a decent job as the ghost twins. And Matt McColm (Agent Thompson) did a good job too. And sleepyd, there is no need to try and insult me with comments like “…just move right along to the next scene and not be concerned with matters that most likely go beyond the boundaries of your box.” That was just unnecessary. Does the fact that I don’t agree with your views about an action flick justify you saying I’m in a box? Anyway, my point was not that I didn’t like or agree with the philosophical views, it was that they didn’t blend them well with their miserable attempts at humor. I think the Matrix was a pretty good flick that didn’t require a sequel at all. The fact that they are trying to turn a decent movie into a film saga just doesn’t work and falls short in the process. Ok one more question, what was the Merovingian created for originally? And what is his purpose now? He seems to be the only one that is truly not working for the system but maybe its just another way to push “the one” towards his goal. _______________ One of the Belouve boys This comment was edited by ioshee on May 17 2003 11:22pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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Sleepyd, the thing about the 6 Matrices is like Internet Explorer versions. Each one is an upgrade. The architect says that the Matrix is actually older than anyone realises and that Zion has actually fallen many times. I also don't think you can actually say too much about agent smith. He may be a rogue viral program. But you can't say its a side story. Maybe this has occurred in each previous version and is a part of the process of destroying zion and starting over. You just can't be sure yet. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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sleepyd - Ex-Student 
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Everything was a lie. The Oracle was only a program, kinda like those programming hack tools that lets you peek at other processes and their memory spaces [lets her see in the future]. Agent Smith is merely a virus now, he was set loose by Neo in the first movie. He's your basic replicating/infesting virus now. His sole purpose is a side-plot, to destroy Neo. He is not acting under orders of the Matrix whatsoever, it's for his own personal gain, since he is no longer an Agent but more of a hybrid. Neo has chosen to rebel against the cycle that the past One's have choosen, which was to save Zion and still be enslaved by the machines -- which could be an endless one or that to certain doom of man kind. His decision was based mostly on his love for Trinity and as I understand it, is the first to have love at that point for making the choice. Zion would have been destroyed no matter what. Neo actually has a chance to save Zion, even though it's been decimated, there are still people alive. Also if you noticed, there is a hint that Neo has more powers than anyone realises. They left that moot though, cause it could be he's still in another Matrix..there could possibly be 6 Matrices. That part is speculation though as it will supposedly come together in Revolution, the saving of Zion. As far as commenting on the movie: You can't compare it to Asian Cinema, there is no visual effects in that genre. Matrix is it's OWN style because it combines physical combat with visual effects in a fluid manner. I didn't see or hear any MTV one liner garbage, everything in this movie is it's own right. It's all original within the context of the entire story. I am kind of upset that you would compare it with such trash. The philosophical discussions should be taken with a grain of salt, there is some very interesting tidbits. If you don't enjoy such beliefs or the study of others then you should just move right along to the next scene and not be concerned with matters that most likely go beyond the boundaries of your box. If you feel I missed or left anything out, I will be seeing the movie again on Saturday and I can look at things specifically that you point out, then comment later. Good day. |
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Mauwin - Ex-Student 
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Btw.. Zion was destroyed... because they said everyone was slaughtered except for that one survivor... _______________ la la laaaaaaa |
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Buzz - Student 
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Neo is a human. Something was basically done to him like all the past One's. So something was downloaded into him. Different people react to some things differently. Not everyone is allergic to bee stings. And other people are more resistant to some diseases. So wouldn't it be possible that Neo would react differently to anything the altered in him than any previous One. And any programming in him possibly can grow. He didn't know how to stop bullets until he reached a certain level. So its probably the same with the sentinels. Its like the Quake 3 Engine. JK2 is the stopping of bullets. Jedi Academy would be the stopping of sentinels. Learning more of what you are able to do. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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SirBizNatch - Student
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i think since he can control the matrix, he can kinda control it makers. not as easily, since it took alot outta him.jus a thought. _______________ Personal body guard to teh 1337 Jacen Aratan! Midbie Council Memeber||Member of the Almighty FiZZsters |
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ioshee - Student
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Cool thanks guys. I just saw it again and it makes a little more sense now. I am still kind of annoyed at all the MTV grind session and all the raunchy stuff in general. Like the pie program, totally the work of two dorky brothers that WISH they could write a program to do that. As far as the matrix and Zion, I believe that their “real life” outside the matrix is all another layer of the matrix. How else would Neo “feel” the squids and then stop them. It doesn’t make sense to explain everything that is mystical away with science and then throw something mystical in that can’t be explained. It’s just a theory I have but I think Neo is only a program, not a person with a program in him. Monica Bellucci’s character tells him that her husband used to be like him. I think she is impressed with his love for Trinity because she knows he is just a program but is surprised he can have personal love for a human. Even the architect says he is the first “ONE” to fall in love. _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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doobie - Jedi Council
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as far as the death of zion goes, i don't think zion itself was destroyed, only the first line of defense (the 5 emp stuff)... because the hammer folks talked about going over to the place and finding the one survivor, which would imply that the machines hadn't completely eradicated the humans at zion... plus they still had somewhere between 1-24 hours before the diggers actually got to zion (i'm not sure about the exact time, i need to see it again). _______________ -Academy Leader/Dictator/Defeater of DJ Sith and JACen Solo in the JAK+ Tournament -I do think it (the JA) will help convert dozens, maybe hundreds, to the dork nation... --me |
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Acey Spadey - Student 
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ok my turn -Did I understand correctly that “the one” (Neo in this case) had to choose between picking twenty something new people to start a new Zion or trying to fight and being responsible for letting everyone die? Yes -Which one did he choose? He chose to save trinity and try and fight -Was Zion destroyed? No, the machines as i believe were after a power source of Zion, that would make it easier for them to attack. a number of ships were sent but all destroyed but a few of them. -What is the “purpose” of agent smith? Agent Smith is a past program, you saw the upgraded versions fighting Neo at the beginning. lets just say that V 1.03 for JK2, is Agent smith, people didn't like it and upgraded it to 1.04, the better agents. the Older program they tried to delete and succeeded in getting rid of the old ones...Agent smith's partners in the first one. except for him..Neo did kill him, but he wasn't removed from the system. Only from the loop that is the Matrix defence programs. and from their, since he is Artificial intelligence he can learn for him/itself, and had learned to assimilate other programs so he can copy himself, hence the 1000 or so Smiths. Now what he wants now, is to escape from the Matrix and will do anything for it..but he wants Neo/Mr Anderson for like what he did to the other guy, controlling him out of the Matrix. it would be simple as it ws to upload information to work and use machinery, why can't he upload himself into a host/person. _______________ .Lag Bro to Xanatos. Adopted Twin to Bubu. Big-Brother to SmilyKrazy ---- JATSRAD Guru, JASE Member, JA SP Mod Staff ---- The Order of the Stick -- Big thanks to Mango for my avatar -- Quote: Sometimes you've got to specifically go out of your way to get into trouble. It's called fun.
Quote: (Random hella old quote) <Fizz of Belouve> .. in sovjet russia, cereals spit at YOU!
Quote: whats the point of growing up, if your not allowed to act childish!
Padawan - Henkes
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Buzz - Student
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Yes Zion was destroyed. The Hammer survived the attack, along with the guy agent smith took over. Also the other crew that was helping Neo is still alive I think. With the female Captain. Here's what I gathered from that meeting with the architect on The Matrix, Zion, and the One: This Matrix is the 6th version. And I believe that means that Zion is version 5. They said they'd been fighting for 100 years, but actually its been probably closer 500-600 years Since the first Matrix was a utopia that failed miserably. Remember that these machines aren't just computers and such but an Artificial Intelligence. The Intelligence learned that people couldn't live in a perfect world and that there would be some the would still reject the world altogether. It didn't know why so it wanted to fix the problem. The solution was to give people the illusion that they had a choice. Live Free in Zion or live in the Matrix. The machines created zion, and they probably actually ran those machines the consular took Neo to. The One is basically the data recorder of sorts it seems. After a certain point The One program starts up chooses a person and it runs its course. The purpose of The One is to correct the error. It chooses the ones to keep Zion in existence and then its data is analyzed to try and improve the Matrix. The thing is that The One program gets to choose, keep the Matrix running and upgrade, similar to upgrading your operating system or actually deciding to say go to hell. If The One chooses this route, then Zion will be completely destroyed and the Matrix will crash, killing every human. So with Zion and The Matrix gone humanity essentially will die. That's always been the reason that the One chooses to let the Matrix run. Agent Smith's purpose on the outside was, I believe to make sure Zion does fall, so it could be repopulated with new people. Smith's existence in the Matrix is I'd say closer to a program that you thought was deleted but is still hanging around in the back somewhere. Now here's what I see: The Architect basically analyzes every option the person has and decides that it knows the choice the human chooses right before the human makes it known. That's why you see all those Neo's saying and doing different things. I think the computer doesn't always know why the person makes that choice. So the Architect only gives Neo two choices. Now I have a question myself. If you assume that the Architect knows Neo would choose to allow Zion to be destroyed, is this the first time that The One has chosen to let everything end? If it isn't then the Matrix probably has past contigencies to still correct it. Back up systems and stuff to be used yet that have worked before. Now if it hasn't it still probably has back ups, but they would be untested. It would be like when DJ ran his test with the polls. It worked perfect on the test site, but what happens when it really gets used? I think that will be the Matrix Revolutions portion. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Icco - Student 
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ok let me run this by u... zion is not gon just the first line of defense agent smith is a virus, he is there to get in the way and get rid of the humans, though he doesnt care about the machines. and if neo chose to rebuild the matrix everyone/thing connected to it would die. _______________ "this is Icco. Icco is old. Icco is lost. Icco is cool, but Icco doesn't know what the meaning of 'macrophageal sex'." - Vaughn /Icco |
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Flamori Athena - Student 
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That's the way the original Star Wars was lol _______________ «±» 21st on the Midbie Council, Profile ID: 2027 «±» True wisdom is the knowledge that you know nothing. |
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Mauwin - Ex-Student 
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Neo chose to save trinity... and Zion was destroyed. The only survivors were the crew of the Nebacanezor (however you spell it), the Hammer, and agent smith who was inside of that guy. He set off an EMP which took out 5 ships apparently which allowed the machines an easy victory... that was his purpose... in this film anyways... I guess... I dunno... I agree... I was very dissapointed in this Matrix... maybe the next one will be better... like the star wars trilogy... 1st one introduces the story, the 2nd one the main characters get in a biggest shithole possible and then in the third on they get out... I think thats the way the Matrix trilogy is setting up to be. _______________ la la laaaaaaa This comment was edited by Mauwin on May 15 2003 11:12pm. |
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