| The Existance of Life | |
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Huxley - Retired  |
... WARNING! ... If you read this thread you might expand your mind.. FRIENDS DONT LET FRIENDS THINK AND SURF!
In light of a conversation starting on #ja, I have decided to start a thread to contain my rantings and ludicris ideas on life and the world around us. View this post at your own risk!! 
--------------------------------------------- Have you ever thought about how your brain was developed? Which events shaped your life to make you become who you are? When you are a child, you are taught things like 'hot' and 'cold' and 'bad' and 'good' but these things are static examples. They are all variables. What if you were taught that an iron is 'cold' and Ice Cubes are 'hot' ? Would that change how you can exist in this world, on this plane of existance? See, our minds are powerful devices, of which we have very little knowledge of. Scientists haven't learned exactly where the cognitive brain actually puts-together images in your head. So since we dont know, we accept that there is no answer. Close your eyes and picture yourself standing in a beautiful green field, with flowers, reds and yellows and purples, overlooking rolling green hills and a lake off in the distance sparkling blue water glimmering off the sunlight from the clear blue sky. Now feel, the wind gently flowing over your body, tickling and tingling your arms and the sensations. Now smell the flowers, the tulips, the daisys, the roses. Hear the birds chirping in the trees, calling out to each other in a playful manner. Taste an apple that you bite into, and let the juices run out your mouth and down your chin. You now should have every sensation that you are standing in a field, far far away from your computer desk. A nice 'imaginary' field in your mind. And tell me, how REAL this is to you? What is the difference between this and a half-forgotten memory you have as a child? Is that situation not real now that you arent involved in it? Time is a relative matter, yet we let time slip away and only focus on the moment, and never the past or the future. And the past helps us unlock secrets about the future, and secrets about ourselves. Why must this be concluded that what you can picture in your mind, and feel and smell, and hear, and taste! doesn't exist? We are only told that it doesn't exist because other people cant see it with you. But what if they can? Then does it exist? We have 5 basic senses, plus several others, (which we can get into on a later thread on some other plane of existance) How come if we cant see it or touch it, it isn't real then? Our brains are capable of much more than any school teaches or trains. The science world knows that our brains are barely used, and part of our brains are never developed because we never use them at an early age. The US governement knows this, and tried to use this to their advantage in the early 60s with their LSD tests on human soliders for Vietnam. But the same government forces children in school and doesn't allow individualized cognitive thought to ever take place, as much as they can control. Why? Why would ANYONE on this planet ever want this civilization to not advance? Our brains hold the answers to everything, yet we only use them to figure out what time our favorite show on television is, or how much money we need to save up to buy the new video card we want. We are taught this way. We are molded this way, so we don't break free from establishment and all our minds back into the chaotic state that it began. By 'learning' boundaries with our minds, we are closing off our civilization to ever truly advance to its fullest potential. You must put your brain in a state of constant open-mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability at all times. Think for YOURSELF, question authority. My question to all of you, is: Are we what we should have become? Is this world really heading down the proper 'path' of creation? Or are we off-course... (I'm feeling veh-klempt now, please discuss!) |
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_cmad_ - Ex-Student 
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*************** SORRY FOR THE _LONG_ POST i just happened to have a lot in my head right now *************** Okay I just went through the whole thread. Really interesting comments here. Interesting theories and even more interesting thoughts. Why are we here? Who knows... There are 2 basic beliefs. Other people believe we were created, other people believe we evolved. I'm not going to get into this matter here because I know it will lead to a flame. You are born. You know nothing... You gather information from everywhere, everything and your mind processes it; most times without you even being aware of it. A character is created upon birth. It consists of only basic things about the future you. The character is built while you're still young. You are subject to other peoples' opinions and actions. You are the type of person that goes "He's older, with greater experience, thus he knows better; i should follow his actions and suggestions". At least that's what *some* people are like. Other people are like "This is *my* life and I am going to do anything I want with it". However both types of people, willingly or not, build their character according to the surrounding environment. I've always believed that the environment plays a great role in the future of a person and his/her character. I'm still a teenager, so from now on my post is all about personal beliefs with no facts to support them. Your character has been built while you're at the end of your teenage years. That doesn't mean you can't change. The only difference is that now you're less subject to the environment and other people. You have now something to step on, something to support; you have your own beliefs. Of course you still rebuild your character, in less visible and possibly minor relatively to the earlier years. Until a certain age you are gaining beliefs, and changing your old ones. You are gaining wisdom. From a certain point and on it stops. However, it *shouldn't* stop. You should never think you know enough not to listen to other people's thoughts. You must always be welcome to input. What role does the brain play in this? A great one. As other people said before, most people only get to use a small percentage of their brain. The remaining percentage is there; your brain is there. It still processes the data; you just choose not to pay attention to it. A part of your brain becomes the master of the rest. Why would you choose not to use the rest of your brain? Various reasons... They say your brain is divided into 2 parts; the logical thinking part and the emotional part (i think). IMO that's not true. What is true (IMO always) is that *the percentage of the brain you use* is divided into two parts. What about the rest? Why don't we use it? Because we don't want to? Because we have no time to? Because we're too busy with the other part? Maybe. Try to use all of your brain. I don't know if I have achieved to use a bigger part of my brain than other people do; I just hope so. You get to understand more things about life, about you, about people. They say that people are born clever. That could be so. That could just as well not be so. It's all a matter of will. You get better and better at something by excercize. If everyone was born with similar abilities, everyone *should* have the same brain abilities in the end of their school life. But there is life outside school, while on your school years. That plays a big role. Let's say everyone wasn't born with the same abilities. Could that mean that random people get the brains? No. IMO I think everyone's born with the same abilities; what makes the difference is the percent of their brain they use. Back to life. What is brain there for? It's there to help process input and send commands to the other parts of your body to be executed. Is that only it? Brain is also there to make choices for you. There is no general right choice and wrong choice. Someone might consider choice X to be right, and someone else might consider choice X to be wrong and choice Y to be right. It's all about personal beliefs, which are built according to their environment (see the first paragraphs). Right or wrong, it's all about the present. One cannot know the future, unless he can use a big percentage of his brain. No the future is not random; life isn't composed of random facts. Your own future is composed of your choices, of your friends' choices, of everyone's choices. Your future might turn out to be good or bad. Nothing's for sure; something might be good but might become bad (or the opposite). You cannot go on in your life without choices. You just HAVE to make them. Just try to predict the future lying before your choices. But try not to over-do it, for you might go insane... Insane. No this is the wrong word. We find names for facts we can't explain. We call a person "insane" if he does weird stuff. I'm not talking about the kill-everyone-you-see kind of insanity. I'm talking about the... John Nash insanity. He was way too clever for the rest of the people. He could see stuff others couldn't. They couldn't understand him. Therefore, to solve their problem once and for all, they declared him insane. The problem with him was that he processed too much things; which resulted in him imagining things. Another example, "randomness". I think we declare something to be "random" until we've found a pattern explaining it. People think life is a series of random events. People think choices are random. No. Everything's wisely calculated, everything's there for a reason. That reason could be SO complex that we could never understand it. Random, insane, impossible; the words of the lesser minded I daresay. -------- -------- Life is simple; you make choices, life goes on. You cannot go to the past again, you _shouldn't_ know the future. Try to make things as simple as possible; not simpler. Try to process things the best way you can; not more. Try to be subject to the environment; not a lot though. Try to keep a limit to everything. For this is the key to life. - cmad  _______________ Your friends of today, are your enemies of tomorrow. This comment was edited by _cmad_ on May 02 2004 08:12pm. |
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Fizz of Belouve - Student 
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w0000t I love ioshees post here... a shame I havent seen this thread before  _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
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_cmad_ - Ex-Student
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I actually was in such a field (the one hux described) yesterday. It made me think, think and think about life... I actually found out things I never imagined about me and RL. RL isn't so bad anymore. It all depends on the situation, the person and tastes of the person that make the RL what it is for each and every one of us... I hate who I am iRL; that's why I always find shelter in the halls of IRC where I can be what I wanted to be. The moment I can be normal iRL as well, I'll let go of myself. inet will become just another powerful feature of the computer, chat will become the second means of communicating (whereas now it's the first for me) and everything should be back to normal. Too bad that hasn't happened before. RL isn't so weird and random afterall. Weak people who don't care or cannot answer the question of life and how life is, are the ones believing that we live in a world of randomness, consisting of a series of random situations connected in a way to make things seem real. Random is the answer of the ignorant. Nothing is random... _______________ Your friends of today, are your enemies of tomorrow. This comment was edited by _cmad_ on May 02 2004 07:34pm. |
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Padawan On A Stick - Student 
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I sense sarcasm _______________ When you are told something for years, you learn to accept it. But, after the truth is revealed, you feel conufusion, isolation, and depression. Then you ask, where do I belong? I'm searching for that answer. |
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Steinin - Student 
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Good thread to bump. We're all sent to school to be brain-washed. God... now that I reflect on my early school years (age 7-12) and look at the teachers behaviour makes me want to prosecute them. _______________ 362 Ohi on! |
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Padawan On A Stick - Student
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ahh, thank you, i was looking or this, anyways, we are sent to school to be brainwashed, IMO _______________ When you are told something for years, you learn to accept it. But, after the truth is revealed, you feel conufusion, isolation, and depression. Then you ask, where do I belong? I'm searching for that answer. |
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Jawa Rikard Falk - Ex-Student 
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i jsut feel to pull up some old thread _______________ bye all i had a great time here i will never forget it i really gonna miss u all |
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ioshee - Student 
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This is a great thread. I met this older woman
once who shared a little theory she had. I liked it because it made me really think. She said basically this: Everything you do in this life is what you want to do. Now you might say “I don’t want to go to school and take exams but my parents would kill me if I didn’t” but if you really didn’t want to, you wouldn’t. You see there are consequences for our actions and sometimes those consequences outweigh the desire not to do something. So, your wanting to not get killed by your parents supercedes your wanting to not go to school. Your wanting to fit in and belong in society is greater than your desire to go study art so you go to business school instead. We do what we want. If that means doing what we don’t want in the process then the thing you don’t want to do is irrelevant because it is obviously less important than what we do want to do. I have this very, very good friend who used to always complain about his job. Most of the time I would listen and try to tell him how there were more important things to think about than what you have to do to put bread on the table. One day I told him that if he wasn’t happy with his job then quit. He did and then he got another job. He realized that if he wanted something different then he could have something different. I’m not saying I don’t want to hear anyone complaining ever again. Sometimes that can be therapeutic (for some people.) I feel honored when my friends come to me with problems. I have even been known to complain a time or two in my life  I’m just saying you don’t have to complain
about the same thing your whole life. Now if I can only practice what I preach (hehe.) _______________ One of the Belouve boys This comment was edited by ioshee on Jan 17 2003 11:50am. |
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Huxley - Retired 
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Wow Aeth, interesting dreams 
I love dreams very much. Controlling them is very very hard, but you should try to remember to relax in your dream, let it happen, but be aware of it. Like the living force, allow the dream to engulf you, and then you will be in control without trying to be. Chainer: I'm either smart or insane, I haven't figure it out yet
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Huxley - Retired 
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The world is meant to be a complex enviroment, with the highest level of randomness and complexity. Our Universe is vast and our existance still is tied in with the farthest star, and the closest blade of grass.
Our beings, were created, from the same materials found everywhere else in the universe, from the same particles all in the beginning. I hold quite a Deist perspective on life: I think that G-d created the universe and gave us the ability of choice. I think that there is a force that can be tapped into and used to follow a life path and to a future of propsparity, and I think that everyone chooses to follow the path or not to. You life is what you make of it, so make it the way you want to. I try to follow this mantra as much as possible: You are in control of your destiny, what will your destiny be? Aeth: Great post my friend. I think that you are very correct with your observations. There is about 80billion things that we cant see but are all around us. Lights and your comment about the bee are very good points to remind us that everything we experience is only part of what is really going on. We must learn to experience all aspects of this extistance, and all the things we can, so we can move on to bigger and better things some other time. This is great thread guys!! Keep it going! |
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Sniya - Student 
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should we advance?
This is not as clear cut as it seems the more we discover the more we can mess with are world.And humans are not able to know the right and wrong descisions If we werent here would thier be a hole in the ozone,pollution everywere,animal species dying out. Thier was an article i was reading in the sundy times magazine "10 reasons we wont survive the Century",they say this is one of the reasons that we havent been contacted by aliens-when a civilisation gets to a certain stage in technological advancement they destroy themselves. EDIT:Oh bubu and silencio u guys reminded me of being a teenager. When your a child you dont have deep thoughts,you dont fancy girls,you dont have to make any important decisions about anything.(or spots but thats not important) Now im a 14 yearold teenager who now fancies girls has to make deisions soon on GCSEs and starts thinking about things and all i seem to find when i scratch the surface this world is not perfect as i once thought quite the oposite its majorly messed up. Dose it not feel that the creator has designed this world a bit like a video game-The moment you get the hang of things it gets harder. _______________ The real question is not whether machines think but whether men do. Bertrand Russell http://www.thejediacademy.net/forums_detail_page.php?f_id=970 This comment was edited by Sniya on Jan 15 2003 02:39pm. |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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what makes us special (as living beings) and sets us apart from other animals, is that we don't just shake our heads. well, most of us do, but some don't. just the fact that you wrote all this and that you are aware of it all, makes you special. we are animals, yes. but we are different. we are aware of ourselves and our surroundings, a lot more than any other animal.
and the thing about the brain taking 3 seconds to do anything, where d'you get that? i think it is much less than 3 seconds. should be less than 1 second. anyway, _______________ make install -not war |
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Aeth S'kray - Retired 
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Eek, i tried to read my own post and it didn't work very good. Sorry for my terrible english and in general confuseing text. I'm too lazy to correct it now 
************************************************ huxley, do you have any children? or imagine you had some. imagine you would let them develope as they are. they just grow. forget about they would die of hunger and not-be-loved. just imagine they would live without getting in touch with any "civilisation". you know what i think? i think they would become animals again. i read a terrible book of a made-up atom-holocaust. it was harrowing to read, sometime i just could not continue with it. it's from the view of a young boy, you never know WHY there came the bombs, you just get into that scenario. the surviours (that get less and less by the radiation sickness) try to make their way... but noone grows crops, noone works. they're fixed on themselves, they beg and steal. after some years, they get organized again, start school etc. the book ends with the realisazition that human race will die out, because the children doesnt survive. BUT if they would... what would happen? once the old generation would have died, no schools would be tehre, no books, no knowledge. nothing. you wouldnt know how to write, to produce dishes... NOTHING! ... like animals dont get me wrong, it would be interesting to have some more freedom. but, i dont think its possible. what would happen if you would teach your child like that? it would not succeed in our world. it would die soon. our social live (well, in the industrialized countrys) is very much fixed on themselves... but at the same time we always search for feedback. you want to please the other gender, look good, have friends, be well known, get respect... al that stuff. why? maybe because we lived in herds earlier. we ARE animals. the thing about the brain: how often did you tell your heart to beat today? well? nothing at all? but it did! how often did you tell your brain to check if you're hungry? breathing? tiredness? temperature? you actually realise very few things that are actually going on. you THINK you see everything of your view? no way, you only recognize about 1/5 of what you see! how much does your brain betray you? how much controls the brain YOU and not you the brain? ARE you the brain? is the brain you? you know that everything that you think happens now is 3 seconds too late? 3 seconds! the stone that just hast fallen to the ground... it lies there since 3 seconds. the girl that kissed you... it did it 3 seconds before. the child that ran before your car... it stands there 3 seconds already! your brain is slow! it gets the info from eyes/ears/touch receptors, but it takes about 3 seconds to put it into a logical shape. but the brain betray you... it dates everything 3 seconds earlier, so you wont notice the delay! -the action happens, almost at same time information is taken to your brain -your brain works about 3 seconds on it. 3 seconds!! then it gives you the information -your brain says the information that is given to you NOW, is what happens NOW, but it did happen 3 seconds ago! due to this, people claimed to feel a touch before they actually got touched! we live 3 seconds to late. what else do we not know about our "reality"? what thinks a bee of reality, it can see UV rays! __________________________________________________ maybe it's because we are stupid. what is between one atom and the other? what is between the earth and the sun? nothing? nothing of what? what was before the big bang? they say universe expands... into what? what is the universe? what is electricty? radiation? WE DONT UNDERSTAND! so we shake our head and go on with daily life... like a chimp that shakes head in his simple mind and goes on with eating after he saw a scientist writing something down. you don't like that, eh? _______________ Aeth S'kray *June 2002 +September 2003 This comment was edited by Aeth S'kray on Jan 13 2003 02:39pm. |
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Bubu - Hubbub
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exactly silencio... about the same scenario here... sucks doesn't it. _______________ make install -not war |
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Silencio - Student 
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I know how yuo feel, bubu. this year, I have to decide my entire future. (in terms of deciding wich university I will attend) and I have to join the navy n' all, and just now, my band is starting to come together. AAAAAAGH! too...many...choises... _______________ Second-in-command of the mighty FiZZsters |
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ioshee - Student
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If life were easy, God wouldn't have invented death
No really life is easy; it is us that are hard. _______________ One of the Belouve boys This comment was edited by ioshee on Jan 10 2003 09:05am. |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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Man! This thread is keeping me awake at night. Some very interesting stuff is beeing thrown around here. I, personally, am at a stage in my life where I have to decide just that: what do I do with my life? What is my life worth? Do I conform with the herd or do I do what I think is right? I am going off to college next year and I still don't have a clue what I want to do. So you can see why this thread is messing up my mind. I wish life was easier... _______________ make install -not war |
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Huxley - Retired
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Awsome comments ioshee and pike
Pike, on your domestication point, I think very much against the 'domestication' of anything. That right there is what is ruining our human race! We become domesticated, so we dont WANT to use our brains or create things, and just be consumers, like ioshee said. I think that we should each decided individually ourselves, what we should persue in life. And as a whole race as humans (because there is only 1 race, not colors...) we should collectivally decide what to focus on. There's a funny old theory i heard once. Not sure if its even a real philosphy on life or not, but since I only know for a fact that I exist, nothing else around me have I any evidence on whether it is real or not. Therefore I make my own reality. I decide to get on the computer and play jedi knight, instead of finishing up work I should be doing. I decide to wake up at a certain time or sleep in, depending on what I feel like that day. Everyone in the world is completely different, atleast from a brain-standpoint. So what makes any one person better than another? What gives anyone the right to say I am wrong, or you are wrong, or that I should goto college and be a good little 'domesticated' boy? Shouldn't everyone decide these major things in life, and not be forced into schooling and other things such as that? At minimum, it should be 'figured out' with your parents and family maybe. On what you want to do with your life, how you want to grow and what you want to experience. Because life is experiences and knowledge that you must acquire to move to the next experience and attain more knowledge. People keep halting their own growth by not doing what they want to do in life. Life is what you make of it. So make it yourself |
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ioshee - Student 
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I am sorry this is so long.
Hux has some great points, as does p][ke. I wanted to comment on the fact that we only use a fraction of our brains. This, I think is pure evidence that we were created basically the way we are now and didn’t evolve from single celled organisms. I used to work with chimps at an animal refuge and it got me thinking. These creatures live a simple life. They are so close to us genetically but so much simpler mentally. Why then would we need to evolve from chimps? If we were chimps there would be no reason to change since survival does not necessarily require more mental capacity, and it certainly does not require a brain that we use only a fraction of. You are so right on about art Huxley. I think that there are two types of people: Creators and consumers. The majority of which, because of complacency are the latter. Everyone enjoys consuming so much that some want to be a part of creating. Although I am glad that there are those who are happy to do nothing but consume. I also find it sad that so many people who probably started creating out of a love for it now are in pursuit of how their creations can earn them money. I know we have to eat but if an artist isn’t careful you can lose something. For instance when I finished this short film and showed it to an acquaintance of mine he said: “Now how can you make money with it?” I was confounded. The thought hadn’t occurred to me. I made the film to make it, because I wanted to express something. I would rather not have to worry about money so that I could create art than make art so that I didn’t have to worry about money. I don’t know if that made any sense. About your thoughts on time. First of all I love your points although I think it is necessary to dwell on the present. The past and future we cannot help but think about but the present is easy to lose site of. I think it is the key to time itself because it is the only aspect of time that isn’t relative. It binds the past and future to us and is what enables the past to “unlock secrets about the future”, as you so eloquently stated. I know this has been explored before but I just wanted to state my view of the theory. Everything we know, everything we have learned and every emotion we have felt, except for what is happening at this very moment, is a memory. Now I have told myself numerous times “It is now and this is not a memory” but now that’s just what it is. Even those little self-assurances are only tangible to me. Does that make them any less real? You asked if we thought this world was heading down the proper path of creation. What is “proper” to one might not be “proper” to someone else (but you knew that.) I think this world and all the people in it are flawed. Before you take offence just take note that almost anyone we consider sane will admit that they are not perfect. I believe that the whole purpose of this dream of an existence is to make a choice about what we are going to be in the real plane of reality. I believe that what is referred to as the afterlife is truly the real form of existence. So if it only takes an instant to make a choice why don’t we get to leave after making it? I think we stay around to help others make the right choice. I do believe there is a right and a wrong choice. It all comes back to pride in my opinion. Are we willing to accept that we need help and forgiveness or not. I really hope I’m not offending anyone here. If you don’t like me after reading this post then I am truly saddened. Just come saber me on one of the servers. Peace. _______________ One of the Belouve boys This comment was edited by ioshee on Jan 09 2003 03:56pm. |
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p][ke - Ex-Student ![p][ke](/image_thumbnail.php?f_type=users&f_width=70&f_height=66&f_image=pike.jpg&f_odd=1)
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There has to be a mold. It is the benefits and disadvantages of living in a civilized world. Look at any domestication process. Tell me which is smarter, faster, stronger - the dog or the wolf? Even through humans have been breeding dogs for specific traits, they have had to breed the aggressivenss out of them, because that is the cost of living with humans. Any dog that attacks someone is put to sleep.
I'm not saying we should let dogs run wild or anything, but giving people complete control of their minds means you cannot punish them when they do something 'wrong' by our standards of society, such as killing and stealing. Because punishing people when they commit crimes is the very process of the domestication of the human race. |
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Huxley - Retired
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Very good point Shang.
I tend to focus on thinking that too. Now-a-days, if you want to expand your mind, and persue a career in art or music or become a writer or a poet, the entire society looks down on you, and tells you to goto school, and college, because that's all they've ever known... I have this idear I've been working on. Its a concept on how the world has become: See, in society's perfect mold, you live your life, and goto school, dont break any laws, follow all the rules, listen to your parents, listen to authority and listen to the government. You never question anything and you never speak your mind. You get up on time, goto work, work your 8 hour shift, come home to your wife and 2 kids and your dog, watch some TV, and repeat. Seems more like instructions for shampoo (rinse and repeat..) The twist to all this. Is that these people that live in the mold, always look up and watch TV and movies and listen to music and see paintings and art, but they never take a chance or a risk to do these things themselves. Every person I've ever talked to wants to be a musician, an artist, or an actor/actress. But no one trys, everyone says 'no, I couldn't ever do that' ... WHY?! What is the hold up? What does it take to get people to take a chance and shoot for thier dreams. To my great suprise, it is almost impossible to get people to follow their dreams. and I believe that our world is dying because all 'hope' is gone. |
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Shang Chi - Student 
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I think we are probably off course because we have been manipulated by a small amount of powerfull people over the course of history. We are told to conform to a certain standard of what is considered norm at the time (which is always changing) Most people that don't fit the "norm" are shunned and are not allowed to grow and possibly become something greating than we already are. _______________ Thirty spokes converge on a single hub, but it is in the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the cart lies. Clay is molded to make a pot, but it is the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the clay pot lies. Cut out doors and windows to make a room, but it is in the spaces where there is nothing that the usefulness of the room lies. Therefore, Benefit may be derived from something, but it is in nothing that we find usefulness. |
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Bubu - Hubbub
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wow hux very deep thoughts... 
you might be right. we could be restricted only by society. but maybe you are wrong. maybe we are biologically restricted to using only 20% (is it?) of our brains. most of the genious minds the world has known were sick minds... or were they? were we only being told that they were sick? perhaps they were so brilliant that we couldn't even understand them, just like chimps can't entirely understand us, because we are intellectually superior. anyway i don't know in which direction i'm heading here i am getting lost. _______________ make install -not war |
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Huxley - Retired
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Hey no flames on this thread, if you dont like the topic dont respond. |
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Jedi_Wing - Ex-Student 
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Hux i think you need to get out of meditaion lol,
or stop smokin that stuff your gettin a little lightheaded i think _______________ http://www.thejediacademy.net/forums_detail_page.php?f_id=159 http://www.thejediacademy.net/show_profile.php?f_id=1386 |
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