| Is the war in Iraq really necessary? | |
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Lord Exar Kun - Student  |
Hey, with a war in Iraq comming up, I just wondered what you guys have got to say about Bush and his war-politics. I personally think Bush is goin way too far with his war-on-terrorism. _______________ -Retired april the 19th 2004 |
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Argon18 - Student |
Eye for an eye.
What a stupid thinking. Stop the wars stop the guns leave us in peace This comment was edited by Argon18 on Jan 29 2003 07:21pm. |
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Kalheka - Student 
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GAH!!! LOL!!! 
I always get the two spellings backwards! _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Buzz - Student 
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A lot of responses on this thread. There are a few things I want to say though. First off, the oil stuff. Does anyone know what the US consumption of oil is and what percent of it we get from sources. I'm willing to bet that the oil we get from the middle east is lower than what most people make it sound like. As for Iraq being an actual threat; I don't really know the truth behind everything said. I know that their document about all their weapons has been called garbage by many sources. And if you want proof of dictators being shady characters who's word is worth as much as how far mini-me can throw a sumo wrestler, look at North Korea. They committed themselves to not developing nuclear weapons. And what was revealed recently? They went back on that agreement and have been SECRETLY working on it. So obviously it is possible to hide something such as weapon production. If there is actual evidence of Iraq being a threat, I don't need to know it. I think that the ones that need to know it are in D.C. Think, if someone went on television and said "We know Iraq has weapons here here and here" Now everyone knows, even Iraq and if they can move their weapons they will. There goes any chance of a surprise attack. If an attack does happen _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Gabba - Ex-Student 
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A intesting read, ill just post it for you all to see as i im busy with college and frankly cannot write a full lenth commet at them moment.
Anyone who wants this valudating ill get them the info TOP US EXPERT BRANDS BLAIR AS "LIAR" OVER IRAQ by Kevin Dowling Tony Blair is a liar, the man who headed the CIA's Iraq desk during the Gulf War said last night. "Bush and Blair want a war in Iraq and they are both prepared to lie if necessary, in order to get one," said Dr Stephen Pelletiere, who recently retired as professor of National Security Affairs at the US Army War College. "Blair's so-called dossier is supposed to be based on 'intelligence'," he said. "It insults our intelligence by recycling old, discredited propaganda and presenting it as fact. "The same canards have recently reappeared in The New Yorker - but The New Yorker is simply a magazine that lives on advertising. "When lies appear in an official Government report to a sovereign Parliament, well then you have to ask yourself just what is going on." Pelletiere said that crucial claims made in the British Government's Dossier on Iraq - and repeated by Tony Blair in his statement to the Commons - were patently false. "Saddam has used chemical weapons, not only against an enemy state, but against his own people," the Dossier states. "Saddam has used chemical weapons both against Iran and his own people," the Dossier repeats a page or two further on. "In 1988 Saddam also used mustard and nerve agents against Iraqi Kurds at Halabja in northern Iraq. "Estimates vary but according to Human Rights Watch up to 5,000 people were killed." Not so, said Pelletiere. "Most of the civilians killed at Halabja - and it's very unlikely that as many as 5,000 died - were killed by Iranian poison gas," he said. "The Iranians made a photo-opportunity out of a catastrophe simply by blaming the deaths on Saddam, and then the media happily gobbled their propaganda up. "The first stories claimed that there were between 80,000 and 100,000 dead, which was obviously phony," he said last night. "You can't kill that many people using gas, in a concentrated period, in terrain such as exists in northern Iraq. "In fact, it would be very difficult to kill even 5,000 in this way. "The great majority of the victims seen by reporters and other observers who attended the scene were blue in their extremities. "That means that they were killed by a blood agent, probably either cyanogen chloride or hydrogen cyanide. Iraq never used and lacked any capacity to produce these chemicals. "But the Iranians did deploy them. Therefore the Iranians killed the Kurds. "The Iraqis did fire mustard gas into Halabja, after the Iranians had attacked and occupied the town, but despite its fearsome reputation mustard gas is an incapacitating agent, rather than an efficient killer. "Slightly more than two per cent of those exposed to mustard gas attack can be expected to die. "Iran had always supported its 'human wave" attacks by using a non-persistent form of mustard gas which would allow shock troops to occupy Iraqi positions once Saddam's troops had retreated. "The Iraqis had learned to develop a heavier, more persistent form of the gas which was designed to slow down the enemy advance. "Unfortunately for the spin-doctors, much of the mustard gas that was used at Halabja, which is a border town in a much-disputed territory, carried the Iranian signature." At Halabja the rebel Kurdish leader, Jalal Talabani, helped Iranian forces infiltrate the town by night. In the morning, the Iranians burst from hiding, overwhelmed the Iraqi garrison, and drove it from the city. The evicted Iraqi commander called in a barrage of mustard gas, and regained possession of the place. Then the Iranians dumped blood agents on the reoccupying Iraqis. Persistent mustard gas from the Iraqi side, cyanide-based gas from the Iranian side - and the innocent civilians of Halabja were caught in the middle. Several hundred Kurdish civilians were horribly killed during successive attacks and counter-attacks by the opposing armies, - but not because they'd been specifically targeted for ethnic cleansing by Saddam Hussein, Pelletiere says. In 1990, Pelletiere, Professor Leif Rosenberger and Lt Colonel Dr Douglas Johnson of the Strategic Studies Institute of the US Army War College wrote "Lessons Learned: The Iran-Iraq War." The report is available at www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/3203/ Their study drew on the first-hand knowledge of US defense attachés, CIA and Defense Intelligence Agency analysis, field reports and "signals intelligence"-phone and radio messages sent by the warring armies and picked up by the National Security Agency. "This later became the handbook - the bible - that was issued to all US military units for strategic and tactical guidance during Operation Desert Storm," Pelletiere said. "It's been open-source material for 20 years, so there's no way the British military, the Joint Intelligence Committee, or Tony Blair's staffers can plead ignorance of its contents and conclusions." In Lessons Learned, its follow up "Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East," and a 2001 Praeger hardback "Iraq and the International Oil System: Why America Went to War in the Gulf" - which has sold 30,000 copies at a pricey $70 each - Pelletiere has pictured Iraq as a Western ally betrayed and demonized by Big Oil. "The U.S. did not expect Iraq to win the Iran-Iraq war and when it did, U.S. leaders were dumbfounded," he told college students. "As Iraq sought to rebuild itself after the war, the U.S. attempted to prevent this restructuring by seeking to damage Iraq's credit-worthiness. "Despite a large debt, Iraq was good for the money because of its oil resources. Still, in the spring of 1988, Iraq did not have cash reserves and wished to reschedule its debt payments. "The media in the U.S. and elsewhere began running stories on Iraq, the tone of which was extremely hostile. "Irrational stories do appear on occasion, but not usually so extensively. This was a deliberate campaign. "Congress was debating sanctions on Iraq and when sanctions were eventually declared, Iraq could no longer reschedule its debts." The spin doctors' contribution to this clandestine economic war was crucial, he believes. A second alleged gas attack by the Iraqis against the Kurds at Amadiyyah in the far northern region of Iraq was fabricated five months after the war had ended. "No gassing victims were ever produced," he said. "The only evidence that gas was used is the eye-witness testimony of the Kurds who fled to Turkey, collected by staffers of the U.S. Senate. "We showed this testimony to experts in the military who told us it was worthless. The symptoms described by the Kurds do not conform to any known chemical or combination of chemicals. "Lacking any gassing victims, and given the fact that the testimony does not seem credible we were unwilling to say that in fact the attacks had occurred. "At the same time, throughout the study we cited instances of Iraqi-instigated chemical attacks against Iranian military units. "There is no doubt that these occurred; indeed the Iraqis have stated on occasion that they feel justified in using chemicals tactically under certain conditions. "However, they deny using chemicals as a weapon of mass destruction, that is against civilians. "What our study concludes is that those who claim they are doing so need to come up with some more convincing proof." Pelletiere said that the US military had closely studied eyewitness testimony collected from Kurdish refugees in Iran by the veteran British journalist Gwynne Roberts and shown on Channel 4 on November 23,1988. Survivors described a massacre at Bassay Gorge, in northern Iraq, on August 29, 1988, in which something between 1,500 and 4,000 people, mainly women and children, were supposedly killed by what appears to have been a mixture of various nerve gasses while trying to reach the Turkish border. Their bodies were allegedly piled up and burnt by Iraqi troops wearing gas masks the following morning. Roberts claimed to have entered Iraq clandestinely and brought back fragments of an exploded shell with samples of the surrounding soil, which were later confirmed by a British laboratory as containing traces of mustard gas. "This report meant nothing," Pelletiere said. "We all know that refugees lie. "We all understand the physics of chemical warfare and the difficulties involved in disposing of 4,000 dead bodies. "Roberts wouldn't - or couldn't - tell us where he got the shell fragments from. "So what have we got? "Zilch." Pelletiere's controversial views were echoed by Raju C. J. Thomas, Allis Chalmers Distinguished Professor of International Affairs at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Author of a dozen books and a graduate of LSE, Thomas has been a Visiting Fellow at Harvard, U.C.L.A., M.I.T., and the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London. "It all boils down to two three-letter words," he said. "Ego and oil "Blair's dossier includes a photograph which I know for a fact was produced by the Iranian propaganda machine. "Claims that Iraqis gassed their own Kurdish civilians are constantly invoked by the mass media. "That excuse was used by President Clinton in December 1998 to justify the further bombing and destruction of Iraq. "The Halabjah incident is one of the reasons being proposed now by Prime Minister Blair and President Bush for a full-scale military assault on Iraq. "Meanwhile, estimates of the number of innocents who have died in Iraq from relentless American-dictated U.N. sanctions range between a million and 1.7 million, including more than half a million children. "Bush and Blair want a 'regime change' simply because if sanctions were to be lifted then Saddam's regime would favour Russian and French oil companies rather than US or British multinationals. "This dispute has little to do with any war on terrorism . "And it is quite wrong that we should base public policy on propaganda and lies." _______________ Sit vis nobiscum. |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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lol i want some dessert too.. what are we having? storm? what's that?  _______________ make install -not war |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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LOL...
Kalheka, I read your post, and went Homer Simpson Style with an "Mmmmmm....Dessert Storm...(drooling sound)" So, yes, there CAN be humor over all this. Evne if it's an honest typo. Edit: D'oh! Even! E-V-E-N _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. This comment was edited by Ulic Belouve on Jan 28 2003 04:44pm. |
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Kalheka - Student 
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Well Nuke, I can't say that I agree with you about W's attitude about Saddam. I don't disagree either, but I don't really know the man personally.
You also said that you feel that he wont do anything while there is so much attention. That's kinda the point. Would you turn you back on somebody that you know is armed and wants to hurt you? Would you give them that chance simply becuase you think they don't have the courage to do it to your face? He wants to use those weapons. His plans are to use those weapons. He's used them before on his own people to keep them in line. I remember that from cnn, 12 years ago during Dessert Shield, not Dessert Storm. Most importantly, he agreed to give up those weapons in order to keep from losing his A$$ 12 years ago. He hasn't kept his end of this deal. He's still trying to hang onto his tools of destruction. There is plenty of evidence in his behavior to indicate that the moment the UN lets him out of that agreement with his weapons, he will commence another attack on whoever he feels the need to attack. _______________ Death is only the beginning. This comment was edited by Kalheka on Jan 28 2003 01:12pm. |
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Battlin' Billy - Student 
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Basically, the way I see it, this is all about oil, and revenge. W wants someone in power in Iraq that will be friendly to the US. He also wants revenge on Saddam for allegedly trying to murder his daddy.
He's one of those rich white guys who only cares about other rich white guys. He doesn't give a <bleep> about the blue collar working man. Saddam might be an evil guy, he might have the weapons. But right now, he's not gonna use them while the inspectors are there. Plus we have so much military built up in the area, if he did try anything, he wouldn't get very far. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me. _______________ Midbie Council Member #2 - Profile ID 2073 | Member of B@rtM@ulS@ar | Owner of Monty's 2000th comment & D@RtHM@UL's 8100th comment | Former Padawan of SilkMonkey & Arcuss JA Goaltender & NHL Fan | Fellow Rush fan to Axion|Plo Koon is my oldest JA friend Post your RL pics HERE! | Post you JK2/JK3 screenies HERE! |
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
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I'm sure every Arab nation in the region has secret plans to invade Israel. 
What disturbs me is this US strategy of the initial attack: 400 cruise missiles, more than ever fired in the first Gulf War, launched the 1st day against strategic points in Iraq. Call me crazy if you wish, but isn't this a little bit of overkill? I mean, we have to save some for when all the Arab nations finally decide on open war with the US.  _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
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Sniya - Student 
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oh my dad read this out of the sunday times.Suposidly a past head of the uks armed force or summit has said that his theary is that the americans/uk are invading iqak because theyve found plans he was to invade isreal ohh consperiousy theory _______________ The real question is not whether machines think but whether men do. Bertrand Russell http://www.thejediacademy.net/forums_detail_page.php?f_id=970 |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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Amen Kalheka. And if you think that the double-dose of those courses would knock you flat, I am also studying Terrorism in Urban Life. We read the Turner Diaries. The FBI labels it as the blueprint to the Oklahoma Bombing. It is the most racist thing ever. The author even says that many parts of it will make you want to vomit.
I have one week down and it already wreaks havok. Plus I have two other courses. But I agree to what you say. Don't think I have any real beef with anything. somebody whack me over the head tomorrow and ask me to explain Caspar Weinburger's tests. I eluded to them before, and I think that if I listed them, it would help you gauge whether we should use force or not. But it's sleepy time. Later. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Kalheka - Student
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Yeah I can imagine the effect of studying either one. Both together would probably knock me flat on my ass.
I agree with you that the UN is a good idea, and that it's done some good. But it seems like certain parties in the UN don't have the stones to ante up and put their money where there mouth is, so they basically screw it up for everybody. _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student
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Okay, Okay, Okay....
I think that I made the mistake of intertwining random jests into the serious stuff that I was writing. I DO NOT really intend to run for President or anything. I just wanted to humorously know if anyone thought I was good at this ate all. As for the UN thing, I just briefly argued that the institution is a good thing, just that some (not all) the members have a few flaws. Those resolutions involving those members are doomed to fail. The UN did do some good resolutions between other countries that don't have such flaws. So, one could say they are infeective in some areas, effective in others. That may or may not make the UN ineffective as a whole, I'm just pointing out that there have been many areas wher the UN succeds. YOu just never hear about successes, failures make for better stories. As for the happy-go-lucky UN ROCKS!!! Thing at the end, that was another jest. I just didn't want the UN to know I'm making fun of them. BY THE WAY, UN, YOU ROCK!!!! (See, they'll be distracted by the big letters. A lot like the French that way. And cats. Easily distracted.) I'm actually going to make some form of contribution to the discussion sometime. Just that I finished a round of back-to-back Holocaust Studies and Weapons of Mass Destruction studies. That'll make anyone think a WHOLE lot differnetly about the world. So I need to jest a bit. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Aeth S'kray - Retired 
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"Children died making his shoes?! Do you think any children died making my shoes?
I wouldn’t want any dead children germs on them. (J/K don’t crucify me.) " 
*speechless* *thinks* *crucifys io* _______________ Aeth S'kray *June 2002 +September 2003 This comment was edited by Aeth S'kray on Jan 23 2003 02:31pm. |
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council
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My shoes are USA made, so they followed all the various and sundry labor laws in creating them. Of course that *does* jack up the price. _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
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ioshee - Student 
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Children died making his shoes?! Do you think any children died making my shoes?
I wouldn’t want any dead children germs on them. (J/K don’t crucify me.) _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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Sniya - Student 
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id be willing to spend billions on peace rather than millions on war if that were the case.War is a choice but it is the last choice,and some politicians should remeber that _______________ The real question is not whether machines think but whether men do. Bertrand Russell http://www.thejediacademy.net/forums_detail_page.php?f_id=970 |
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Aeth S'kray - Retired
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One beautiful quote I have to add:
"Better spend millions on peace than billions on war" Guys, let's solve the existing problems first, before we create new ones. But Mr. Bush has his colour-TV and his golden toilet, so what does he care about the children that died working on his shoes? _______________ Aeth S'kray *June 2002 +September 2003 This comment was edited by Aeth S'kray on Jan 23 2003 12:41pm. |
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Sniya - Student
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To quote principal skinner from the simpsons"Do you want to be like the real UN or just bicker and never acomplish anything"LOL
As to ulic for president he is may be good but what i want out of a president is a dreamer and idealist.Aim for the stars and you will fly through the sky. ANd here in Northern Ireland you just need to be terrible for the job of a politician and your a shoe in. Oh BTW there is this funny picture of bush at at some army base and he was given bonoculars to look out at summit he didn't take off the covers oh BTW this info is quite useless _______________ The real question is not whether machines think but whether men do. Bertrand Russell http://www.thejediacademy.net/forums_detail_page.php?f_id=970 |
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Kalheka - Student
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Many very good points, Khalaas about Germany not being the same as Iraq, I agree there were major differences. However I didn't really say that they were the same. Saddam may not have the power to field an army like that of the Germans, but he does have the power to fuel terrorists. He also has the power to launch said crappy scud missles at whoever he can aim them at.
Saddam poses the same kind of danger that Hitler did when Germany was coming together. It may not be the military machine that Hitler was able to field, but it is still a grave danger none the less. And Ulic, I guess you just really wanted to see how I would respond to that, so I will give you what I have. You say the UN isn't ineffective because they have many great resolutions out there, that the problem is the members. Since member nations are unwilling to follow through, that makes the body of the UN, INEFFECTIVE! All the UN does is talk. If the UN was effective, the situation in Iraq wouldn't be going on. No more proof than that needs be said. _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Bubu - Hubbub
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khalaas don't take me too seriously 
i don't want to give my opinions on this matter because i feel they will not contribute much to this discussion. i like it as it is and i don't have enough knowledge on the subject in order to postulate a good arguement. i prefer to leave it as it is and just read and absorb.
carry on. _______________ make install -not war This comment was edited by Bubu on Jan 23 2003 05:53am. |
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Jedi Al Khalaas - Student 
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As for Ulic for President (I will answer his post later...Answering with insults is far quicker than a comprehensive response, and I do not have the advantage of prepared political science essays or colleagues studying politics!)
As for Ulic for President, Bubu , lets hear your opinion on things , to follow , apparently blindly , is not something to be encouraged! and I would vote for Ulic over President Bush , he is the worst and easily led president during my lifetime , bring back ANY of the others , yes even Clinton or Bush Senior |
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Jedi Al Khalaas - Student 
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To answer Kalheka's point comparing Nazi Germany and Adolph Hitler to Present day Iraq and Saddam Hussein.
They are not the same. Adolph and Saddam ARE both bad men. However, as nations, Germany just before the second world war was a major power smarting from a defeat in the 1st world war, 30 years earlier , a new generation of Germans had grown who were not aware of the reality of the brutal 1st world war. In Iraq the people can still remember 10 years ago and can still remember iran iraq , and so are not keen on war. Nazi Germany had the means ie military and financial means to fight and win a war. Iraq has been crippled over the last 10 years and clunky old tanks and a few scud missiles cannot compare to the arsenal it would face. Also the iraqi , soldiers we some time see on tv news look like conscripts and dont seem too keen to fight, they fight out of fear of saddam , not the pride of the nation ala nazi Germany. The people of Germany had (and still have) a strong national identity . They are all germans, and Hitler used this pride to fuel his ambitions The people of Iraq are majority Shia muslims (like Iran) and Saddams govt are Sunni Muslims. Equate this to a Catholic / protestant split. Saddam has systemaicaly been persecuting Shia and Kurds , his own people. I would argue that Iraq does not have all its people pulling in the direction needed for imperialistic ambitions. Anyway to get to the point... Although the leaders intentions might be the same (Adolph and Saddam) , the people would not give the same support to the leader AND Iraq does not have the means to match Germany in expanding its boundaries ( they couldnt even take Kuwait!) Saddams time is near end , he will not be as 'successful' Hitler was in his imperialistic push. (That was not a pro hitler statement) |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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as i said before, Ulic for president!! _______________ make install -not war |
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ioshee - Student 
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Ulic are you kidding. I foresee you becoming the greatest Jedi of all the Jedi. Even Master Bush.
Seriously, I would vote for you. _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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