| To peope who beleive in God | |
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(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student  |
If you choose to beleive in God that is fine, that alone doesnt bother me at all. But I have a few questions for those of you who do believe in God. 1.) Heaven - Can you really belive in this as it is depicted? Everyone is always happy, nothing bad ever happens. Everyone always gets what they want. 2.) Hell - This "ALL FORGIVING" God people have been debating about forever, is actually going to let people suffer for ETERNITY, think about this he is ALL FORGIVING, which mean he wuould be required to forgive you for everything your did including not beleiving in him. 3.) I threw this out on another thread but it was overlooked. 1.) God is "All Knowing" 2.) God is "All Powerful" 3.) God is "All Forgiving" I am sure God is a few more "All <insert something>" but those are the important 3 for now. Look at "1" ALL KNOWING, now think about that, in the year 65 million B.C. God knew what you were going to have for breakfast this morning. He also knows every sin you will ever commit, and weather or not you will go to heaven or hell. Face it, if you beleive in God, you must give up your hopes of having "free will" beleiving in God basically means you are a "determinist." From above it follows that God, knew always wheather or not you were going to Heaven or Hell, so basically just by creating the earth he banished people to hell. _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) |
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
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Guys please lets not have holy wars. I'm closing this thread before this gets out of hand. _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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I think if you are to enter into a forum with the title as such and the converstation being what it was, I can understand where Star Wars Girl was coming from. Using what she did to draw a clearer picture of what was in and supporting her belief "In God" may be offensive to some, but it wasn't directed at anyone in any harmful way. If you believe in creation, that's fine. If others believe in evolution, that's fine too, but it's when people can't express their feelings and beliefs about subject matter under the topic of the forum without getting flamed is the problem. Seriously, if you can't take seeing stuff like that without being disrespectful, you should really try to steer clear of it. Quote: Please keep the evolution bashing away from here - it's the same as me posting "the Bible is a nice sci-fi book" in the bible study thread. :| This would be an open act of disrespect. I don't think that this is what StarWarsGirl was trying to do or had in mind. If she were to go onto a forum about science or evolution and post what she did, then what you said would have made sense. JMO _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down. 
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Aug 04 2004 02:08am. |
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VirusD - Student 
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for allah! Well i dont belive in any gods etc. becouse there are so damn many of em . And most claim that their god is the only 1!!! ... Now i dont really see no reson why i should belive chrisitans more then others  Or can u give me a really good reson? heh _______________ '** I hated going to weddings. All the grandmas would poke me saying "You're next". They stopped that when I started doing it to them at funerals.**' '**On going to war over religion: "You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend.**" '**I Dont Lie! I Just Bend And Illustrate The Truth A Little**' - By me when talking to a friend. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Quote: I apologize for posting that here and I apologize if i offended anyone, but tat's ust my opinion and i won't take back what i said but still i apologize. Didn't say you had to take it back or anything. Just don't *tell us* of that specific opinion.  |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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SO go ahead! I said forget it.  _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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Listen Smily, this thread is for what we're discussing. So we're gonna carry on. Not looking for a fight, but we (that is, Jacen and I) think you're wrong. |
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Smilykrazy - Retired
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Quote: Yeah, totally get that Jacen. Thanks for clearing that up. Also, yeah, this thread isn't pro-christian, it's about God and aspects thereof, including theories that claim God wasn't involved. So what?-Ken I am not getting into it with you again ken. Forget it. Not worth my time.  _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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StarWarsGirl - Ex-Student 
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I apologize for posting that here and I apologize if i offended anyone, but tat's ust my opinion and i won't take back what i said but still i apologize. _______________ Be strong & brave.Don't ever be afraid. Joshua 1:9 Fear is the path to the darkside. -Jedi Master Yoda |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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Yeah, totally get that Jacen. Thanks for clearing that up. Also, yeah, this thread isn't pro-christian, it's about God and aspects thereof, including theories that claim God wasn't involved. So what? -Ken This comment was edited by Mookie on Aug 03 2004 03:14pm. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Quote: hmmm isnt the name of this thread. To the people who believe in God? If you dont believe then dont start trouble here. It shouldn't be so that evolution is being bashed either, though.. this thread is exactly made to be sceptical about the bible/god/etc; not a thread to say evolution is made up, which I can personally say I take offence to. Ken, it wasn't as much the fact it's off topic as the fact I find it offensive, for me... because I don't say what I think on religion, because I don't want to offend people. This comment was edited by Jacen Aratan on Aug 03 2004 01:36pm. |
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Smilykrazy - Retired
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hmmm isnt the name of this thread. To the people who believe in God? If you dont believe then dont start trouble here. _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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Mookie - Ex-Student
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Quote: That's the whole problem. People putting too much stock into what they believe and not what God is saying. Your definition of God's word. People accept it as their truth; nothing wrong with that. There's no real thing you can say that makes me believe you any more than them. Quote: those who are scientific usually don't understand it and refuse to put there life into God's hands cuz there is no scientific way to prove him that's why we have the Big Bang theory and Evolution cuz scientists find comfort in making something up and saying oh gee this sounds logical Or possibly a group of people who cannot give an explanation of the world around them and decide to write a book explaining it all away with some big beard in the sky? Because when you were little, that big beard was your father. No, you don't have enough to back that up, neither do I. That's pointless debate. Jacen: Agreed on the subject thing... it's just where God or christianity is involved it often gets off-topic a bit before returning to the source. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Please keep the evolution bashing away from here - it's the same as me posting "the Bible is a nice sci-fi book" in the bible study thread. :| |
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StarWarsGirl - Ex-Student
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Quote:
Quote: First of all, the Bible wasn't written by God. It was written by different authors. That's why some people choose to believe only parts of it. Second, there's always this thing with people interpreting the bible metaphorically, not literally. That's the whole problem. People putting too much stock into what they believe and not what God is saying. The Bible tells us that Holy men of old wrote as God the Holy Spirit moved them. Whether you have faith in that or not is your problem. The fact is from a believers stand point, it is God's Holy Word. To say that it isn't is to deny Christ's very existance as Christ is shown to be the Word. I agree those who are scientific usually don't understand it and refuse to put there life into God's hands cuz there is no scientific way to prove him that's why we have the Big Bang theory and Evolution cuz scientists find comfort in making something up and saying oh gee this sounds logical so let's make this a theory for people to believe. It boosts their ego so they go on saying oh its true until they truly do believe it. Secondly, we do have the ability to make our own desicions and "free will" we choose to live for the Lord by our own free will. _______________ Be strong & brave.Don't ever be afraid. Joshua 1:9 Fear is the path to the darkside. -Jedi Master Yoda This comment was edited by StarWarsGirl on Aug 03 2004 07:03am. |
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n00b - Student 
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Quote: Look at "1" ALL KNOWING, now think about that, in the year 65 million B.C. God knew what you were going to have for breakfast this morning. He also knows every sin you will ever commit, and weather or not you will go to heaven or hell. Face it, if you beleive in God, you must give up your hopes of having "free will" beleiving in God basically means you are a "determinist." If you really think about things and see the world for what it really is, you will find that no creature on the planet knows the future. It is impossible to know what hasn't happened yet. If we were predetermined to take one course of action or another, that would mean the world has only one known destination in time. This is utterly rediculous. We all know we can mold our paths in the direction we want to go with work and determination. When we look at the past we see one road traveled, but the future holds many paths. I think it would be very damaging psychologically to take predestination to its utmost conclusion. If there is no future to decide, what's the point of trying? If we all believed that we couldn't mold ourselves into something better, this would be a rotten place to live in. I believe that not only we are ignorant of the future, but if there is a God, this God may know everything that has happened, but it is ignorant of the future as well. The Christian bible says we are molded in God's image, and if that's true, that could be why we can't see the future. God can't see it either. In the bible, the future is always given as prophecy. Prophecy is neither specific to a timeframe nor totally descriptive of the event that may or may not occur. I would call them educated guesses. Its the best we can do and what God can do as well. _______________ Gone but hopefully not forgotten... This comment was edited by n00b on Aug 03 2004 04:05am. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: First of all, the Bible wasn't written by God. It was written by different authors. That's why some people choose to believe only parts of it. Second, there's always this thing with people interpreting the bible metaphorically, not literally. That's the whole problem. People putting too much stock into what they believe and not what God is saying. The Bible tells us that Holy men of old wrote as God the Holy Spirit moved them. Whether you have faith in that or not is your problem. The fact is from a believers stand point, it is God's Holy Word. To say that it isn't is to deny Christ's very existance as Christ is shown to be the Word. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Jawa Rikard Falk - Ex-Student 
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the hell is that we self makes and i think all forgiven means its never to late even if u kill a person can u become a good person if u realize how bad it was _______________ bye all i had a great time here i will never forget it i really gonna miss u all |
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Mookie - Ex-Student
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First of all, the Bible wasn't written by God. It was written by different authors. That's why some people choose to believe only parts of it. Second, there's always this thing with people interpreting the bible metaphorically, not literally. |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Quote: I suppose you mean your belief. Yes, this goes without saying although you felt the need to say it.  Quote: The bible is shared by a lot more people than you, and they don't read the same things in it. That's why christianity has so many followers: it's very open for interpretation. This also is true. People range in intellegence, logic, personal feelings, etc. and yes I too fall into these catagories. Problem is, there is only one Bible with one message. Now you can take scriptures such as the ones I have posted and a great many people will just sweep them under a carpet and begin to shine light on the scriptures that fit their salvation plans. This is not what the Bible is all about. All scripture must come together to create the salvation plan that is and only is Jesus Christ. Some people won't retain this knowledge and some people flat out will refuse it. On the other hand for those that God selects He will open their spiritual eyes and spiritual hearts by coming to them in the Holy Spirit and begin to dwell within them. These people will hold to the truth with the greatest accuracy. Everone is free to follow their own thoughts on who or what God really is, but we aren't able to know Him unless He reveals Himself to us. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Mookie - Ex-Student
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Quote: I'm sorry to bring scriptures here yet again, but it isn't profitable for believers to throw around their beliefs without God's Word being the foundation for it. I suppose you mean your belief. The bible is shared by a lot more people than you, and they don't read the same things in it. That's why christianity has so many followers: it's very open for interpretation. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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In Romans 3:4 we read: 4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, THAT THOU MIGHTEST BE JUSTIFIED IN THY SAYINGS, AND MIGHTEST OVERCOME WHEN THOU ART JUDGED. In Isaiah 55:8 we read: 8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. These two verses should be enough to break down anybodies thoughts or reasoning or ideas or systems. God is Amighty God. He is so much infinately higher then us when it comes to thought and to reason that we can never fully come to a complete understanding of who and what God and His thoughts are. As far as asking for forgiveness goes, that doesn't hold water with what the Bible says. I encourage all to come over to the Bible study forum and study these things with us if you are looking to gain a better understanding. Our will can never enter into the picture that is salvation. For God tells us in John 1:10-13: 10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. I'm sorry to bring scriptures here yet again, but it isn't profitable for believers to throw around their beliefs without God's Word being the foundation for it. As I said earlier, if people want to discuss salvation and forgiveness let us bring it over to the forum when people won't get upset. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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Obi, I'll address what you said in order: 1.) Heaven - A place where we are all happy because we live with our Father (and Christ, for those who do not believe in the Trinity). "Everyone always gets what they want." The idea is that by the time we have gotten there we have refined our wants and needs. I doubt everyone will be driving porsches. 2.) Hell - He is not required to forgive all sins, we see in Matthew 6:14-15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." ...It is We who are required to forgive. The Father will forgive whom he will forgive. Many times the Lord has said Faith & Works bring our salvation. There is work on our end. -- Giving up "Free will" is the last thing you mentioned. Free will, or free agency is one of the most sacred 'principles' of the Plan. The whole reason Satan was cast out of Heaven was because he sought to take away our agency (this is a common Christian belief...right?). (If not) He seeks to bring us into sin to control our will. Abusing drugs, sex, alcohol, all cause us to give up our agency. Yes, the Father knows who is going to make it, and who is not going to make it. But there is a hope for all of us. If I could take but a moment and explain one of my personal beliefs: To start with I do not believe in the Trinity. According to the Gospel which I hold to my heart, The Father, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. This is the nature of the Godhead. Three separate beings with the same purpose. Secondly, is the Plan of Salvation. All Christians believe in Earth life, in Heaven, in Hell, but I personally hold a bit extra. I believe that before we came to Earth we lived with our Father in Heaven (known as the pre-existance). We are here on Earth to gain experience. To chose him as the desire of our hearts (hopefully). After this life we are all resurrected (as a gift of Christ); this is immortality. It is given to all of us. What we are working towards however is Exaltation. Eternal Life with The Father and Christ. I believe in Three degrees of Glory, or three 'levels' of Heaven. The Telestial, Terrestial, and Celestial Kingdoms (with the Celestial Kingdom being the greatest). Within the Celestial Kingdom itself, there are three kingdoms. We do not know details of the lesser two within the Celestial, or of the Telestial or Terrestial. The Lord has not related much information about them. Makes sense to me...because we're shooting for the top What we do know however, is that the Telestial Kingdom is reserved for "they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the Testimony of Jesus" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82; part of the LDS (Mormon) Standard Works). By not 'receiv[ing] not the gospel of Christ...' it implies rejecting. Basically, although they do not live with the Father and Christ, there is some glory there (more than on the Earth in its present state). The glory of it is likened unto the stars, because (verse 98) "for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world." In verse, 103 "These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie." All we know of the Terrestial Kingdom is found in D&C (Doctrine and Covenants) 76:91, "the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory". The glory of it is likened unto the moon. And the Celestial in verses 92-96: "which excels in all things--where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever; Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever. They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;...And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one." I guess I was wrong, We know a bit more than I thought before looking things up hehe. And about hell, in verse 84 it states that those in the Telestial Kingdom are "they who are thrust down to hell." A short description of hell is found in D&C 101:91 "Even in outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth." (Interestingly enough, we see Gods love in verse 92: "Pray ye, therefore, that their ears may be opened unto your cries, that I may be merciful unto them, that these things may not come upon them" . This casting down to hell is to take place After the final judgement. So the Telestial Kingdom can be considered a temporary state. But this hell, is an outer darkness...there is no place prepared for those people. No glory, no happiness.However, in Moses 1:39 (this Book of Moses is part of his writings which we believe were lost through the many translations and editings of the Bible) we read "For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." This is what the Father wants, for us to return. But it is up to Us to do our part, to do our best. How do we measure our best? I would say by having the Desire to be obedient. When obedience ceases to be an annoyance we are on the Lords side (I don't take credit for that thought, but I cannot cite it). --- I noticed that in your most recent post, you credit logic as the only perfect thing we have. If I might just point out Proverbs 3:5-7,26 "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil...For the Lord shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken." I think that here the Lord is telling us to depart from the 'logic and reason' way of life, to Faith. Faith in him, and he will direct us, lead us back to him, avoiding the snares along the way. Proverbs 4:7 "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding." The Lord tells us here that wisdom and understanding are our goals. If I could give a weak example (that "I Robot" fans may enjoy) please consider the following situation: A man and a woman are found injured and for whatever reason (make it up if you like, or take the movie's story line ) only one can be saved (blah blah blah). The male has the higher chance of survival. Which do you save and treat?Would not logic tell us to save the male? He has the higher chance of survival, and attempting to save the female may be a vain effort...yet is he the correct choice? I think wisdom, or at least emotion (a departure from logic) tells us to save the woman. Just a thought. Well, I've quite enjoyed this post, I've definitely learned a lot. I hope this helps out some, and that I didn't stray from any topics. Yes I did introduce some of my beliefs, but I hope I kept it all relevant to the questions at hand. |
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(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student 
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Quote: Well, what I am saying is is that God may forgive people for their wrongs, but he will not overlook them until that person accepts the one true God and is truly sorry for their sins. Forgiveness is a two way thing: God forgives us and we accept this forgiveness. If we don't accept this forgiveness, then we are blind to God's existence. I believe that this is why 'forgiveness' *must* be asked for - not that because God is unforgiving to those who don't, but that only those who do ask it are the only ones who will truly recieve it. Why wouldn't HE? One difference I see between the way I view God and the other view God, is that I don't see God as a person. God is supposed to be falwless/perfect one thing a person can never be. The only we have that I know, that is perfect is "logic" Example: ( albiet a simple one ) All "A" are "B" All "B" are "C" Therefore all "A" are "C" Assume the premises (the 1st two lines) are true It is impossible for the conclusion to be false. This is who I view G, working with the "truths" we have about is the only way to gain a deeper understand. So anytime someone states that God, either would or wouldn't do something. Unless its based on a premise which we know to be true, the statement holds no water. So, the reason I wrote what I did in my post is that these statements are accepted as "truths" those who beleive in God beleive he is all-power, all-knowing, and all-forgiving. Also remeber not all arguements move in a striaght line, so if my premises are questionable, please question them, this thread is if no other reason, an exploration in my beliefs for me. I would love to a find nice sound logical statement that, breaks my logic as to why theist must be determiniest. _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) |
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Mookie - Ex-Student
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Quote: What if you don't have all the pieces to the puzzle or all the factors of the formula? Can you truely say that you know it all and are truth? No, but I'm content with having questions that require no answers, at least not by me. It only makes life more interesting. Because my personal faith is based on something less specific than the Bible (I'm referring to the actual stories now, not the message) I have a different approach to things. You could say I'm a spiritual man, but I don't place my faith in a structure or a story. As for forgiveness... I've always wondered about that. I'm not sure if there's a reason why we're here, but the fact that we are is a miracle in itself. God gives us instincts, and then sets rules in the opposite direction? Create people, and if they follow their natural ways, torment them for an eternity? You know, telling people that french kissing and murder both lead to hell confuses the hell out of them, if you know what I mean. You sharpen the human appetite to the point where it can split atoms with its desire; you build egos the size of cathedrals; fiber-optically connect the world to every eager impulse; grease even the dullest dreams with these dollar-green, gold-plated fantasies, until every human becomes an aspiring emperor, becomes his own God... and where can you go from there? |
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Quesi - Student 
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Well, what I am saying is is that God may forgive people for their wrongs, but he will not overlook them until that person accepts the one true God and is truly sorry for their sins. Forgiveness is a two way thing: God forgives us and we accept this forgiveness. If we don't accept this forgiveness, then we are blind to God's existence. I believe that this is why 'forgiveness' *must* be asked for - not that because God is unforgiving to those who don't, but that only those who do ask it are the only ones who will truly recieve it. _______________ "Your powers are weak old man" || Part of the "Fifth Element Appreciation Society" || Proud possession of Flash [Jacen_Aratan] bleh [Jacen_Aratan] last year of school :p [Jacen_Aratan] after the finals I am freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee [Jacen_Aratan] until I have to go on more advanced education [Jacen_Aratan] [Acey_Spadey] like kindergarten(Bubu) my sister was quite good actually.. never expected her to be so good (Gradius) yeah, she's great |
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