| News From Fallujah, A hard day for Marines | |
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Plo Koon - Student  |
News from Fallujah,there is reality in this to be warned. In Falluja, Young Marines Saw the Savagery of an Urban War November 21, 2004 By DEXTER FILKINS FALLUJA, Iraq, Nov. 18 - Eight days after the Americans entered the city on foot, a pair of marines wound their way up the darkened innards of a minaret, shot through with holes by an American tank. As the marines inched their way along, a burst of gunfire rang down, fired by an insurgent hiding in the top of the tower. The bullets hit the first marine in the face, his blood spattering the marine behind him. Lance Cpl. William Miller, age 22, lay in silence half way up, mortally wounded. "Miller!" the marines called from below. "Miller!" With that, the marines' near mystical commandment against leaving a comrade behind seized the group. One after another, the young marines dashed into the minaret, into darkness and into gunfire, and wound their way up the stairs. After four attempts, Corporal Miller's lifeless body emerged from the tower, his comrades choking and covered with dust, dodging volleys of machine-gun fire as they carried him back to their base. "I was trying to be careful, but I was trying to get him out, you know what I'm saying?" Lance Cpl. Michael Gogin, 19, said afterward. So went eight days of combat for this Iraqi city, the most sustained period of street-to-street fighting that Americans have encountered since the Vietnam War. The proximity gave the fighting a hellish intensity, with soldiers often close enough to look their enemies in the eyes. For a correspondent who has covered a half dozen armed conflicts, including the war in Iraq since its opening in March 2003, the fighting seen while traveling with a frontline unit in Falluja was a qualitatively different experience, a leap into a different kind of battle. From the first rockets vaulting out of the city as the marines moved in, the noise and feel of the battle seemed altogether extraordinary; at other times, hardly real at all. This intimacy of combat, this plunge into urban warfare, was new to this generation of American soldiers, but it is a kind of fighting they will probably see again: a grinding struggle to root out guerrillas entrenched in a neighborhood, on streets marked in a language few American soldiers could comprehend. At the minaret, as more insurgents closed in to join the battle, the marines ran through volleys of machine gun fire back to their base. Hours later, American jets dropped three 500-pound bombs on the mosque, reducing the minaret to rubble. Marines returned the next day to make sure the guerrillas were dead. The price for the Americans so far: 51 dead and 425 wounded, a number that may yet increase but that already exceeds that from any battle in the Iraq war. Marines in Harm's Way The 150 marines with whom I traveled, Company B of the First Battalion, Eighth Marines, had it as tough as any unit in the fight. They moved through the city almost entirely on foot, into the heart of the resistance, rarely protected by tanks or troop carriers, working their way through Falluja's narrow streets with 75-pound packs on their backs. In eight days of fighting, Company B took 36 casualties, including 6 dead, meaning that one in four of the company was either wounded or killed in little more than a week. The sounds, sights and feel of the battle were as old as war itself, and as new as the Pentagon's latest weapons systems. The eerie pop from the cannon of the AC-130 gunship, prowling above the city, firing at guerrillas who were often only steps away from Americans on the ground. The weird buzz of the Dragon Eye pilotless airplane, hovering over the battlefield as its video cameras beamed real-time images back to the base. The glow of the insurgents' flares, throwing daylight over a landscape to help them spot their targets: us. The nervous shove of a marine scrambling for space along a brick wall as tracer rounds ricocheted above. The silence between the ping of the shell leaving its mortar tube and the explosion when it strikes. The screams of the marines when one of their comrades, Cpl. Jake Knospler, lost part of his jaw to a hand grenade. "No, no, no!" the marines shouted as they dragged Corporal Knospler from the darkened house where the bomb went off. It was 2 a.m., the sky dark without a moon. "No, no, no!" Nothing in the combat I saw even remotely resembled the scenes regularly flashed across movie screens, but often seemed no more real. Mortar shells and rocket-propelled grenades began raining down on Company B the moment its men began piling out of their troop carries just outside of Falluja. The shells looked like Fourth of July rockets, sailing over the ridge ahead as if fired by children, exploding in a whoosh of sparks. Whole buildings, minarets and human beings were vaporized in barrages of exploding shells. A man dressed in a white dishdasha crawled across a desolate field, reaching behind a gnarled plant to hide, when he collapsed before a burst of fire from an American tank. Sometimes the casualties came in volleys, like bursts of machine-gun fire. On the first morning of battle, during a ferocious struggle for the Muhammadia Mosque, about 45 marines with Company B's Third Platoon dashed across 40th Street, right into interlocking streams of fire. By the time the platoon made it to the other side, five men lay bleeding in the street. The marines rushed out to get them, as they would days later in the minaret, but it was too late for Sgt. Lonny D. Wells, who bled to death on the side of the road. One of the men who braved gunfire to pull in Sergeant Wells was Cpl. Nathan R. Anderson, who died three days later in an ambush. Sergeant Wells's death dealt the Third Platoon a heavy blow; as a leader of one of its squads, he had written letters to the parents of its younger members, assuring them he would look over them during the tour in Iraq. "He loved playing cards," Cpl. Gentian Marku recalled. "He knew all the probabilities." More than once, death crept up and snatched a member of Company B and quietly slipped away. Cpl. Nick Ziolkowski, nicknamed Ski, was a Company B sniper. For hours at a stretch, Corporal Ziolkowski would sit on a rooftop, looking through the scope on his bolt-action M-40 rifle, waiting for guerrillas to step into his sights. The scope was big and wide, and Corporal Ziolkowski often took off his helmet to get a better look. Tall, good-looking and gregarious, Corporal Ziolkowski was one of Company B's most popular soldiers. Unlike most snipers, who learned to shoot growing up in the countryside, Corporal Ziolkowski grew up near Baltimore, and was never familiar with guns until he joined the Marines. Though Baltimore boasts no beach front, Corporal Ziolkowski's passion was surfing; at Camp Lejeune, N.C., Company B's base, he often would organize his entire day around the tides. "All I need now is a beach with some waves," Corporal Ziolkowski said, during a break from his sniper duties at Falluja's Grand Mosque, where he killed three men in a single day. During that same break, Corporal Ziolkowski foretold his own death. The snipers, he said, were now among the most hunted of American soldiers. During the first battle for Falluja, in April, Corporal Ziolkowski said, American snipers had been especially lethal, and intelligence officers had warned him that this time, the snipers would be targets. "They are trying to take us out," Corporal Ziolkowski said. The bullet knocked Corporal Ziolkowski backward and onto his back. He had been sitting on a rooftop on the outskirts of the Shuhada neighborhood, an area controlled by insurgents, peering through his wide scope. He had taken his helmet off to get a better view. The bullet hit him in the head. Young Men, Heavy Burdens For all the death about the place, one inescapable impression left by the marines was their youth. Everyone knows that soldiers are young; it is another thing to see men barely out of adolescence, many of whom were still in high school when this war began, shoot people dead. The marines of Company B often fought over the packets of M&M's that came with their rations. Sitting in their barracks, they sang along with the Garth Brooks paean to chewing tobacco, "Copenhagen," named for the brand they bought almost to a man: Copenhagen, what a wad of flavor Copenhagen, you can see it in my smile Copenhagen, hey do yourself a favor, dip Copenhagen, it drives the cowgirls wild One of Company B's more youthful members was Cpl. Romulo Jimenez II, age 21 from Bellington, W.Va., who spent much of his time showing off his tattoos - he had flames climbing up one of his arms - and talking about his 1992 Ford Mustang. Corporal Jimenez was a popular member of Company B's Second Platoon, not least because he introduced his sister to a fellow marine, Lance Cpl. Sean Evans, and the couple married. In the days before the battle started, Corporal Jimenez called his sister, Katherine, to ask that she fix up the interior of his Mustang before he got home. "Make it look real nice," he told her. On Wednesday, Nov. 10, at around 2 p.m., Corporal Jimenez was shot in the neck by a sniper as he advanced with his platoon through the northern end of Falluja, just near the green-domed Muhammadia Mosque. He died instantly. Despite their youth, the marines seemed to tower over their peers outside the military in maturity and guts. Many of Company B's best marines, its most proficient killers, were 19 and 20 years old; some directed their comrades in maneuvers and assaults. Company B's three lieutenants, each responsible for the lives of about 50 men, were 23 and 24 years old. They are a strangely anonymous bunch. The men who fight America's wars seem invariably to come from little towns and medium-size cities far away from the nation's arteries along the coast. Line up a group of marines and ask them where they are from, and you will get a list of places you have never heard of: Pearland, Tex.; Lodi, Ohio; Osawatomie, Kan. Typical of the marines who survived Falluja was Chad Ritchie, a 22-year-old corporal from Keezletown, Va. Corporal Ritchie, a soft-spoken, bespectacled intelligence officer, said he was happy to be out of the tiny place where he grew up, though he admitted that he sometimes missed the good times on Friday nights in the fields. "We'd have a bonfire, and back the trucks up on it, and open up the backs, and someone would always have some speakers," Corporal Ritchie said. "We'd drink beer, tell stories." Like many of the young men in Company B, Corporal Ritchie said he joined the Marines because he yearned for an adventure greater than his small town could offer. "The guys who stayed, they're all living with their parents, making $7 an hour," Corporal Ritchie said. "I'm not going to be one of those people who gets old and says, 'I wish I had done this. I wish I had done that.' Every once in a while, you've got to do something hard, do something you're not comfortable with. A person needs a gut check." Holding Up Under Fire Marines like Corporal Ritchie proved themselves time and again in Falluja, not without fear. While camped out one night in the Iraqi National Guard building in the middle of city, Company B came under mortar fire that grew closer with each shot. The insurgents were "bracketing" the building, firing shots to the left and right of the target and adjusting their fire each time. In the hallways, where the men had camped for the night, the murmured sounds of prayers rose between the explosions. After 20 tries, the shelling inexplicably stopped. On one particularly grim night, a group of marines from Company B's First Platoon turned a corner in the darkness and headed up an alley. As they did so, they came across men dressed in uniforms worn by the Iraqi National Guard. The uniforms were so exact that they even carried pieces of red tape and white, the agreed upon signal to assure American soldiers that any Iraqis dressed that way would be friendly; the others could be killed. The marines, spotting the red and white tape, waved, and the men in Iraqi uniforms opened fire. One American, Corporal Anderson, died instantly. One of the wounded men, Pfc. Andrew Russell, lay in the road, screaming from a nearly severed leg. A group of marines ran forward into the gunfire to pull their comrades out. But the ambush, presumably by insurgents, and the enemy flares and gunfire that followed, rattled Company B more than any other event all week. In the darkness, the men began to argue. Others stood around in the road. As the platoon's leader, lieutenant Andy Eckert, struggled to take charge, the Third Platoon seemed on the brink of panic. "Everybody was scared," Lieutenant Eckert said afterward. "If the leader can't hold, then the unit can't hold together." The unit did hold, but only after the intervention of Company B's commanding officer, Capt. Read Omohundro. Time and again through the week, Captain Omohundro kept his men from folding, if not by his resolute manner then by his calmness under fire. In the first 16 hours of battle, when the combat was continuous and the threat of death ever present, Captain Omohundro never flinched, moving his men through the warrens and back alleys of Falluja with an uncanny sense of space and time, sensing the enemy, sensing the location of his men, even in the darkness, entirely self-possessed. "Damn it, get moving," Captain Omohundro said, and his men, looking relieved that they had been given direction amid the anarchy, were only too happy to oblige. A little later, Captain Omohundro, a 34-year-old Texan, allowed that the strain of the battle had weighed on him, but he said that he had long ago trained himself to keep any self-doubt hidden from view. "It's not like I don't feel it," Captain Omohundro said. "But if I were to show it, the whole thing would come apart." When the heavy fighting was finally over, a dog began to follow Company B through Falluja's broken streets. First it lay down in the road outside one of the buildings that Company B had occupied, between troop carriers. Then, as the troops moved on, the mangy dog slinked behind them, first on a series of house searches, then on a foot patrol, always keeping its distance, but never letting the marines out of its sight. Company B, looking a bit ragged itself as it moved up through Falluja, momentarily fell out of its single-file line. "Keep a sharp eye," Captain Omohundro told his men. "We ain't done with this war yet." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/international/middleeast/21battle.html?ex=1101982213&ei=1&en=a2340a5477ac472a May the force be with the Young Marines and Soldiers in the middle east  ._______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This post was edited by Plo Koon on Nov 21 2004 04:07am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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The threat to your safety is the large number of islamic fundamentalists moving into Europe. The same fundamentalists that become terrorists. Like that muslim television station in France that openly supports Hamas. I consider the UN has made itself irrelevant with Rwanda, and now Sudan. I don't even think that the US and UK ignored the UN. I think the UN ignored itself. You can't pass resolution after resolution. That's putting a sand in the line and telling someone not to cross it. They keep crossing the line so you just draw another one. Eventually your going to back yourself off a cliff. Sometimes you need to punch them in the nose when they step over the line. The war in Iraq isn't as preemptive as you might think either, since we've been shooting at them pretty much non stop since the end of the gulf war. Here's some stuff for you, a UN report calling for the UN to be more active http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4052385.stm AND The transcript of George W. Bush's speech to the UN in 2002, advocating the same thing http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/12/bush.transcript/ Do you know what really made people in America so divided over Iraq? George Bush. Just the simple fact that he said "We're going to attack Iraq" At that point it became partisan politics. Because really untill that point you can find plenty of comments from Bill Clinton, John Kerry, who knows how many liberals, saying how much of a threat Saddam was. As for the "massive worldwide protest" The masses are stupid. Mob mentality is never good in any manner. Just because a large group thinks one way doesn't make them right. Is Iran right in thinking America is the Great Satan? The right decision isn't always the popular one either Where's the multinational group that is fighting with France in the Ivory Coast? Oh right there isn't one. But since they don't have oil no one is raising a fuss about what's going on there. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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Another thing that scares me about the war on terror is that now bush doesn't have to answer to the UN, or international law such as the geneva convention, who does he answer to? Who is there to tell him to stop if he makes a bad decision? Considering that most polls showed most americans were against going alone with the UK into Iraq, and that the largest ever simultaneous mass protest in world history was staged against it, its certainly not 'the people'. It seems to me its no-one, and that scares me. Saddam didn't scare me, Bush does. I didn't feel Saddam was a threat to my safety, but I think Bush is. And according to polls, 71% of Europeans feel the same way. Not good  _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life This comment was edited by Gil-Galad on Nov 30 2004 02:29am. |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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Alexander: Some interesting reading for you. This backs up Buzz's earlier point about the possible number of civilian deaths. read some of the referenced sites hyperlinked at the bottom as well, its all quite interesting. It all shows that actually there is quite a good basis for the 100,000 figure, and if not, the figure is probably in the many tens of thousands. Still a lot. And about the UN; I disagree for several reasons, but you are of course entitled to your opinion. Buzz: It is true the US, being the richest nation in the world will always be hated by some. It will always have jealousy of its power and influence, and it will always have those whose disagree with its ideals and values. Regarding mistakes made in the past; I am happy to forgive and forget, when the US shows signs of stopping making those mistakes. The US has a habit of supporting and installing dictators, and having to remove them later when they cause trouble, this is the case with Saddam, and they dont seem to have learnt the lessons of those mistakes. From my very cynical point of view there are very sound financial reasons for this. My personal concerns regarding the UN are more concerned with the long term effects of the US and UK ignoring it, rather than whether the war was justified or not. The UN (despite its current scandals re: oil for food) has been a great force for good and peace in the world, and rendering it irrelevant in one swift blow is going to have long term repercussions. Another long term concern regarding ther war is the whole notion of a pre-emptive strike. Pre-emptive war is a dangerous precedent to set for the world, and the possible repercussions of this are too scary for words. It doesn't take much to imagine the horrific possibilities in a world where going to war doesnt have to depend on anyone actually being attacked or killed, but on whether our leaders think they will probably do so in the future. This has never been seen as a valid reason for war, until now. That scares me. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life This comment was edited by Gil-Galad on Nov 30 2004 02:03am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Thank you for bringing intelligent and well formed ideas to this alexander. I believe I already brought those matters up without sounding like I'm the polar opposite of the leftist socialists who scream and yell. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Alexander - Ex-Student |
There is no basis to the 100000 casualty claim of a no doubt leftist socialist minded wacko professor. Sure the leftist media proclaims this suppossed number because a prof says so. Furthermore, I don't give a rats butt about the United Nations. The UN needs to go bye bye. |
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Aayla Secura - Ex-Student 
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heheheh Buzz i love having debates with you! thanks helped me see things from a differant veiw point, but i still stand by what i think.  i'm just a idealist!! _______________ IN UR FACE I'M NOT BLONDE! This comment was edited by Aayla Secura on Nov 29 2004 10:12pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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I don't consider us to be in the damned if we do damned if we don't position. I consider that the position many take. No matter what the U.S. does, its wrong. If the US gov't came out and publicly stated they're against skinning puppies, people would protest them being against skinning puppies. The UN would not have gone in and helped after the weapons inspectors were finished. They had 12 years, and we should have gone in there when Saddam kicked them out. Hans Blix screwed up royally when they went back and said they weren't going to take any of the scientists out of the country do elicit better cooperation from someone who would likely have his throat slit or his family's by Saddam's lackey's if he spoke of anything. The UN that is having corruption exposed about the oil for food program. Where Koffi Annan's own son is becoming suspect in it. Where statements Koffi has said on television have proven untrue. The UN wasn't going to help in this situation no matter what. It would continue passing resolution after resolution untill all sanctions would be lifted and Saddam could restart/continue his weapons programs. The resolutions would work eventually right? Paper documents and agreements with governments like that always do the trick. Just like that shortlived agreement the EU nations had with Iran about stopping uranium enrichment. Or North Korea who agreed to stop its nuclear weapons program, only to later be found to be continuing it progress in secret. "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." - Winston Churchill _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Aayla Secura - Ex-Student
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Basically yes, buzz, lol. But there are ways the USA and UK could have gone about this war. where they would be been as hero's. E.g. waiting for the UN, coz they would have mostly likely helped when the weapon inspectors had finished. But nooo rushing in with guns blazing. Shoot first ask questions later. Which sadly doesn't work in this world. IMO But like I said where in the middle of this so called “war” and therefore we should finish the job, then ask about its justifications. And simply saying “Sadam was a bad guy” will not cover it. Plus no one put you in; “the damn if we do damn if we don't” position that was down to the USA and UK along time ago. _______________ IN UR FACE I'M NOT BLONDE! This comment was edited by Aayla Secura on Nov 29 2004 08:01pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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Ahhh, damned if we do, damned if we don't. We're wrong for not stopping something in the past, and we're wrong for finally stopping it now. Why do we let things like that get in place? Maybe because we aren't the police of the world people like to accuse of us trying to be. Which would you prefer, staying out of everyone elses business allowing things to continue on a downward spiral, sending sternly worded letters to stop what they're doing or else but never taking action in the or else. Or would you like us to take the effort to finally put a stop to things like the taliban, al quaeda and saddam, even if its not really as soon as it should be. Even if they got to where they were because of our mistakes, does that mean we're not allowed to fix those mistakes? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Aayla Secura - Ex-Student
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Yeah sure you have done all that, but why did we, the west let such things get emplace, in the 1st place? Oh yeah I forget America's weapon industry relays upon it. What I find extremely amusing is the fact America said they knew he had SCUD missiles, mainly because they where the ones who sold them to him. _______________ IN UR FACE I'M NOT BLONDE! |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: thats the one, wasn't thinking that much when i wrote it, sorry. *dyslexic* working with you? hardly, working with you till the USA gets bord and leaves them in charge, and then hopes the UN will clean everything up, tho methinks the USA and UK will stick around untill the oil runs out or aka untill they rebuild everything they destoryed getting at the oil. Why do people always assume the worst? By the way the place called afghanistan, has recently reopened its kabul golf course, and a short news blurb I saw indicated that tourists are starting to go back there. A good tourist industry won't help them at all though will it. Let's also not forget the female professionals over there who can once again do their jobs and actually show their faces if they choose. Not so great? maybe. Better than it was? Definitely. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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 - Student |
np, hehe. Actually, the whole Black Watch thing has been all over the news here. Every time a Scottish soldier is killed, it's headline news. It just goes to show how grim life can be for the men and women in the armed forces. :/ |
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Aayla Secura - Ex-Student 
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thats the one, wasn't thinking that much when i wrote it, sorry. *dyslexic* working with you? hardly, working with you till the USA gets bord and leaves them in charge, and then hopes the UN will clean everything up, tho methinks the USA and UK will stick around untill the oil runs out or aka untill they rebuild everything they destoryed getting at the oil. JJ: sorry, i really need to read more things don't i be4 i go shouting my head off about things, heehee _______________ IN UR FACE I'M NOT BLONDE! This comment was edited by Aayla Secura on Nov 29 2004 08:02am. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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Buzz: 1. That is a good point well made. I understand the many problems with the figures, and realise they could be much lower than 100,000. They could also be much higher, which is why used a kind of crude median, trying not to go to wither extreme. 2. I didn't mean literally kids. I used it in a much more colloquial sense which was perhaps innapropriate for this kind of debate, perhaps 'youngster would have been more accurate. 3. I am aware of the condascending tone with which the left in America engages the right, and it is wrong. However, that in no way justifies calling me those things, especially considering I have not called anyone here any of those things, does it? Just because you have been called those things doesn't give anyone permission to call me them. I wouldn't call you a lazy pig just because I have oft been called that in the past. 4. All of those countries are seperate and complex issues in their own right, and I don't know enough about them to engage in any kind of debate regarding them, so I'll take your word for all of that. However, there is a key difference between Serbia and Iraq, in that action in Serbia was supported by the UN and NATO. After all, the lack of UN support for war in Iraq is probably the biggest cause of the global unease with it. And I never claimed that all wars America has ever fought have been unjustified, such a claim would clearly be nonsense. And Mirs: I understand what you're saying, but I think one of the greatest things about the internet is being able to have these kinds of discussions with people from all over the world, it is truly a marvel. I know these issues cut very close to the bone for some people; are pesonally affecting and therefore people can be prone to become defensive and/or personal. However this issue is just as personal for me as almost anyone (ask Duff if you really want to know how it is so), and I have managed to go without making personal attacks, despite provocation. It is part of human nature to talk about politics, to discuss wrong and right, and those that cannot restrain personal feelings when doing so have never stopped me enjoying doing it before, and won't now. Free speech r0x0rZ my b0x0rZ  _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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 - Student |
Quote: But having seen what’s happening, including the “Black-Watch” a British battalion on the front lines due to the USA army asking for aid, more of a Political ploy than anything else. The Black Watch are a SCOTTISH regiment! This comment was edited by  on Nov 28 2004 11:30pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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Mara, did you mean Afghanistan? Or are you actually talking about Pakistan, who is working with us to some degree in searching for Taliban and Al Quaeda? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Aayla Secura - Ex-Student
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I personally find the entire argument for the UK for going to war extremely interesting, both sides having valid arguments, but now that this “war on terror” is in mid progress I see no benefit of infighting, but I believe questioning the motives of countries that attack others without UN consent farley resonantly as an Non-American. But having seen what’s happening, including the “Black-Watch” a British battalion on the front lines due to the USA army asking for aid, more of a Political ploy than anything else. But know that both the USA and UK are in this “war” we should do what need to be done, and try to bring dormancy to people that have been treated terribly by a dictatorship, though it is more likely to be a puppet government, doesn’t mean the general life of those living under that old dictatorship will be dramatically improved and in the end I believe that is the “war on terror”. Having said that life in Pakistan isn’t so great, but oh yeah, we have forgotten all about Pakistan. IMO if the war on terror improves the lives of those it is trying to protect, then I have no argument, but unfortunately. Those improvements have not occurred in many places. This is my general consensus of most people I know here in England. _______________ IN UR FACE I'M NOT BLONDE! |
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Buzz - Student
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Gil Quote: 1. isnt a good enough excuse for killing over 100,000 civilians. 2. Shame on them, helping rebuild a country AND not sending their children off to die in the act of destroying it. 3. Sorry, but calling people ignorant and stupid, misguided, ill-informed, prejudiced, closed minded and then saying 'no offense' just doesn't cut the mustard. Thats called covering your ass and I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees straight through it. How would you take it if someone in the street came up to you, said 'your a stupid ass. No offense.' Would you be offended? 1. The 100,000 civilian deaths is not an actual number. Its the mid point of a statistical estimate of the minimum number of deaths at 8,000 and a max of 194,000. And I've never heard where the samples for the data was taken so they could be highly overblown if they're taking data out of places like Fallujah. It also doesn't account for how many deaths are caused by insurgents or how many of the deaths are possibly insurgents. You can make a stat to say anything you want. This is the case here. A Factual statistic like 1000 US soldiers killed is a true stat that is 100% reliable in information. The 100,000 civilians killed isn't that kind of stat. 2. I didn't realize we were sending 1-17 year olds to fight in Iraq. Soldiers are not children. They are adults and in the case of America's military, voluntarily signed up for the job knowing they could see combat and die. Calling them children seems kind of insulting to me, like they aren't ready for anything and don't know what they're really doing. 3. Welcome to the world of a conservative American Gil. We are being called stupid, ignorant, arrogant, racist, prejudiced, war mongering, uninformed. It happens plenty, and there have been the "no offense" said after them. We're insulted by people who don't even know us who say our country is not the greatest in the world when we personally haven't made that claim. As for the dictatorships of the world. Saudi Arabia is slowly introducing democratic rule to its country, starting at the municipal level. Kuwait, its a monarchy so it might as well be a dictatorship, is also introducing more democratic reforms. China which isn't exactly a dictatorship, has its own WMD but its part of the nuclear agencies and treaties. The same things that seek to keep other countries from developing nukes. It will probably slowly move to more democratic and westernized methods. North Korea, we don't deal with except to keep them from gaining nukes, and invading South Korea and Japan. Also if we went to war with North Korea, we'd risk war with China. Hmmm, what other country can I think of us dealing with that has a dictator, that we have little more than cordial involvement with. Serbia, oh that's right we went in there without UN support, only NATO and worked to depose Milosevic. And boy did that really benefit the US finacially. That serbian crude oil is great...hmmm? What?!, they're not a major oil producer? Why did we go there again? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Mirael D'Kana - Student 
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Since this is an internation community, i suggest every single one of us gives up the chatter containing military, political, or economical matters. This community makes us friends beyond any differences. And that's what we shall honor. Politics r a thing none of us would understand completely. Therefore, as none of us is a president of any country, we shall refrain from giving into political madness, which should be ran by people far wiser than us, who prove themselves to be far more foolish anyway. _______________ -The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven.(John Milton)- Mirael D'Kana, daughter and Padawan to Jaina D'Kana, proud mastress to Crash D'Kana and Saige D'Kana. Winner of Henkes' Pure Pwnage Award. Proud owner of Jaina's 999th post. Proud user of Odan Wei's JA Logo in my avatar. -SWG random quote: People use hammers to knock holes in the wall. I use a hammer to knock Bounty Hunters' teeth out.- This comment was edited by Mirael D'Kana on Nov 28 2004 07:45pm. |
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Duffman - Student 
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i withdraw myself from this thread. I will not make anymore coments in anger or to draw others to anger. my most heartfelt appologies to anyone i have offended i belive i made a grave error in causing such a stir. anyone that wishes to chastise me for it, i deserve it and much more. I have been arrogent and pridefull and easy to take offence. I wish i had seen it and stoped it instead of whatever else i decided to do because of it. i am sorry. _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone This comment was edited by Duffman on Nov 28 2004 05:11pm. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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Sorry, but calling people ignorant and stupid, misguided, ill-informed, prejudiced, closed minded and then saying 'no offense' just doesn't cut the mustard. Thats called covering your ass and I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees straight through it. How would you take it if someone in the street came up to you, said 'your a stupid ass. No offense.' Would you be offended? And you act surprised when I presume its directed at me? Well, lets look at the evidence. "YOU try arguing something which is pointless": Considering this is the first line of your post, which is directly after mine, this is my first hint that your comments are going to be directed at me. Then to confirm that it is me you are addressing (as it could have been a collective 'you'), you proceed to respond to the point that I just made. "Its harder to "justify" someones action's when the other side's minds are closed": Okay, its pretty clear I'm on 'the other side', so therefore my mind must be closed by your reasoning. I take offense at this. "I'm sick of every european feeling that just because I think a certain way, or just because im american, think that i'm an idiot": I am european, and I do not think you are an idiot. Maybe I think you are wrong, but thats not the same. I take offense at this gross, prejudiced generalisation. "im sick of dealing with everyone elses ignorance and stupidity": As I am one of 'everyone else' how can I not be offended by this? Those are the most obvious examples of flaming. There are many more subtle ocassions of arrogance and condascending commends but I wont go through those. As far as I know, I have not said anything directly insulting or arrogant, I have only tried to debate the issue. Please point out any time I have told you that you are stupid, or even hinted at it, and I will wholly apologise. The fact you haven't been able to back up a single one of your accusations against me suggests that you can't. I have not called you stupid, yet you have called me stupid. I have not called you ignorant, yet you have called me ignorant. I have not called you closed minded, yet you have called me closed minded. I have not called you ill-informed, yet you have called me ill-informed. And I am the one acting superior? Please dont accuse me of arrogance anymore unless you back it up, it is very offensive, and all I wanted was to debate, not to have someone asassinate my character for no other reason than because I have a different opinion to his, with no evidence to support his accusations. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Duffman - Student
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simple. It is human nature to think that we are right, and the other person is wrong. I am at fault in this as well many times. trying to convince others that they are wrong is hard, especialy on a subject so frought with emotion as this one. And having been on the reciving end of that predjudice and arrogance a few times to many, i have developed my own predjudice and arrogance. and my that logic, we are all preducial on one thing or another, and need to keep an open mind. I am sorry if my words of anger stuck more strings then they were suppoesed to. _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
I agree that arguing about this topic is pointless; but I do not see how prejudice and arrogance enters the picture. Could you please explain that part? |
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Duffman - Student
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I was doing several things with my last set of posts in this subject, and i thank all my unknowing accomplices. 1) It's not what you say, but how it is accpeted that matters. weither I ment for something to be taken a certain way is not the point. HOW it was taken is the thing that needs to be looked at. 2) Very few poeple (and my thanks to those that do and have) that share my opinion on this subject will continue to speak out on it. Why? Simple. We are tired of it. Tired of feeling like everyone is demanding a reason why he feel this way. More then half the world is against us. Roughly half of my own country is against the way i feel on this matter. And EVERY time the subject is brought up in day-to-day conversations I have the same arguement; I deal with the same (in my opinion) stupid questions, the same unwillingness to have an open mind, the same predjucicial arrogence; and everyone else that has my opinon gets the same thing. We are tired of everyone feeling like its their right to look down on us for feeling what we do (i direct you attention to my previous point - weither its true or not, that is how I feel on the subject at least). And - We are tried of argueing a pointless subject; pointless for now at least. Everyone's effort would be better spent on other matters then argueing about something we can not change or have any effect on whatsoever. What was my reason for posting as i did last? To utterly Kill the coments in this thread. To kill everyone's will to discuss this and turn thier attention to me. Deal with my arrogence and ego if you must, but stop wasting time and effort on the war and flaming everyone else. Direct it at me if you must. @ Bail~ no, that was not directed at you. @ those feeling insulted~ I never insulted ANYONE directly. I was very specific in not mentioning anyone. That was my intention. How do you think that the half of americans that I am in on this subject feels when you feel the need to get preachy on the subject? And again, that may not be what you were doing, but to some it could look that way. And I know that it looks like I am preaching now, but i assure you that it is not my intent. I ment to cause a reaction, now look at it from a different point of view. I did say that I did not mean to insult anyone at the end of my last post. Yet people still took offence. Now how do you think I feel whenever you say something that goes contrary to how i think, and say it in such a way as to seem insulting? I hope that point was made quite clear. Think about HOW you say something and how it could be taken, lest this whole mess start again. @ the JAK that posted (i cant recall your name exactly, my appologies) You would have to know me quite well to understand just why i feel the need to read all the items like this one. And why i feel the need to reply. @ obi-wan I never flamed anyone. I made sure I didn't. I never singled out any one person and insulted them directly. I was trying to convay how i felt in general about the subject, not get into a flame war. If someone felt insulted directly by my post that is thier own affair (see my first point). I did make sure that if I insulted anyone that i said "I'm sorry" at the end of my post. I never ment to insult anyone directly, just convay my feelings on the subject. Now to close this post- My last post was in grand generalized terms. I was trying to send my opinion to everyone that might possibly one day read it. I was in no way trying to insult anyone, just state facts as I saw them from one point of veiw that I might have. Weither I honestly feel the way I have said is entirely open to your interpritation. I could be playing devils advocate here. I could actualy agree with either or neither side of this arguement. I just get sick of seeing the subtle 'i am better then you' feelings that get tossed around when this subject is brought up. THAT is the main point i was trying to get accros. And keep the flaming directed at one person, me. These subjects are quite troublesome, and I was trying to make sure that the childishness be brought to an end by acting in the extreme. I hope that no one thinks less of me due to this. It is not my intention to insult anyone with this post. If you feel insulted, i appologise. And no, im not just covering my butt, i did not mean to insult anyone by this. tooddles. ~edited for things written in anger and frustration, and just waking up. My thoughts were not as well thought out as they should have been. _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone This comment was edited by Duffman on Nov 28 2004 03:25pm. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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I'm not up on any pedestal, please don't accuse me of being so without actually qualifying your accusation in any way whatsoever. I know this discussion is not going to change the fact that we are at war. But we are all lucky enough live in democracies, and a global community in which debate about these issues is allowed and encouraged. Please don't asassinate my character for choosing to use this right to free speech. I'm not trying to stop the war in Iraq, but I am trying to engage in an intelligent debate, and maybe learn one or two things. And perhaps in return what I say may help someone see things in a way they hadn't thought of before, but if not, it doesn't matter, thats not the purpose. To the point about money being the motivation for the war: yes, when you add short sighted and foolhardy to the list you gave of jealous, greedy and powerhungry, I do think that Bush would go to war for money. That is not conclusive, and I wouldn't claim it to be so, it is only the belief I have ended up with after hearing both sides of the argument and seeing the evidence. The whole American stupidity thing: I never once called you stupid, or "ill-informed", or told you that you were arguing your points "poorly", or accused anyone of "ignorance and stupidity". Please dont call me stupid unless you can back it up. And don't accuse me of calling you stupid unless you can back that up as well. The abuse all seems to be one way here. If anyone disagrees please point it out to me and i will apologise, I know I can get worked up when someone patronises me. And, by the way, my mind is never closed, dont think that it is just because you havent managed to change it. Because otherwise I could say the same thing to you. As you have explicitly admitted that you are prejudiced and a hypocrite, my will to continue this discussion has evaporated, unless someone actually wants to discuss the issue, rather than call me stupid because they disagree with me. Last thing: believe it or not my posts weren't aimed solely at you, this is a public discussion board after all, so feel free to ignore them just like the mass e-mails you get if thats your opinion of them. "Im sick of dealing with everyone elses ignorance and stupidity". That says it all really. If that is really the way you feel, then there is a simple solution: don't. Just because you clearly think I'm stupid, you don't have to feel the compulsion to educate me or (more like what you are doing), tell me just how stupid I am. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life This comment was edited by Gil-Galad on Nov 28 2004 01:06pm. |
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