And while we are at the topic of afterlife...
I would like to direct you towards a highly interesting source of information, which definately deserves at least a look.
Here we go

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The Bible tells us that before the foundations of the world, He knew us and chose those who would be redeemed as His people. He is the alfa and the omega, the beginning and the end so the start and the finish of the world are all known to Him. He knows us better then we could ever know ourselves and it is hard to say what factors came into God's choices. The Bible tells us that He isn't a respector of persons and that it's by His will that we enter into His grace so I don't think it has anything to do with how we live our lives. Seems kinda random if you look at it that way, but who truely knows other then God Himself? I'm sure it is not as random as it seems, but I don't know.

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Well, again. If the couch is behind me, it's behind me. Science shows and teaches me alot about this world, but I don't like it's stupid stabs into dark areas it could never know or explain. The big bang theory is rediculous in my eyes. Some of the brightest minds [even people who didn't believe in God] who have studied the universe began to believe in a creater rather then some random chaotic act forming into a perfectly balanced and well maintained universe.

No solid proof on evolution yet that's what we teach all the kiddies at school as if it is 100% true. We teach our children that the world is billions of billions of billions of years old, yet our very own ocean water doesn't contain enough erroded materials to back up that theory either.

We're not trying to better understand things, we're masking them. The unknown grey areas are being colored in whether by science or religion, chose your weapon,

although we have some proof of people being moved by God and other supernatural forces.

We have ancient texts that stood the test of time being written by many different writers with a story that seems to speak in parables but has the same message from the creation story to revelation.

People have seen the miracles, they have witnessed Jesus and His power.

The Bible would have been cut off if these things weren't true, don't you think?

I could be wrong about that theory but I think if anybody in this day and age wrote a book stating thus and so and tried to make a religion out of it, it wouldn't go very far. Especially if it had prophecies past and prophecies of the future, miracles, and not one witness or solid piece of evidence backing it up. Just my thoughts on that.

On another note, I'm sorry too if I have said anything offensive or hurt anybody in anyway. I wasn't aiming to fight, but I do read back and see how the coals are smoking.

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I don't know if christianity or any organized religion has or keeps the doctrine of God being omnipitant. If so, /me claps for them. Show me where it says that in the Bible and I might believe it too. I hold my beliefs from what I read from the Bible. If God presents himself as a He and establishes a chain of command, that's what I look to follow, [not practice mind you for I am not saved]. Even with the chain of command, the greatest commandment of love is still there where [in the marriage] women are to love men as they would themselves and men love women the same. In fact, God gives the example and commandment that men are to love women love women like Christ loved the Church and Christ gave His life to create His Church, [not those little or big buildings with the pretty bells mind you]. It's just in our nature to not really search out the Bible to hear it's true message driving or creating our own religion on our own beliefs and I too probably fall into this catagory. However, I am waiting and reading as carefully and prayfully as I can. It's in God's hand whether or not He will save me.

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I agree with you whole-heartedly on this one. That is of course about all the people who have bended and twisted religion into the form that they saw fit. It is a comforting thought to think, "Wow. My afterlife is secure and my loved ones are waiting for me up in some mystical heaven when we will all remember each other and eat twinkies and dingdongs for eternity." Fact is, if you really read the Bible, most of us face damnation. Even me! I didn't come into this discussion to preach to anybody, but my points and views will still be discussed. Yes, I am currently staring down the barrel of eternity of damnation. My mother passed away very recently and my heart aches wondering if the Lord blessed her and kept her. I cry myself to sleep some nights thinking about that. It's not that we are bad people. Not in the eyes of the world have you. It's just that we don't follow all of God's commandments whole heartedly and one needs to be born again to do that. That is all God's work to do so I humbly wait for Him hoping that His grace will reach me too. Until then, I just share what I read from the Bible hoping others will open their eyes to some of the verses that can't just be ignored.

Your thoughts on upbringing has some scientific evidence supporting it and is a valid point, however I've met alot of people from the wrong side of the tracks and some of them had the most abusive lives growing up but were some of the most honest and caring people I've ever known while others were animals with no controls or limits. I think their is more to ones emotional state that just upbringing.

Idealism is nothing more then petty philosophical nonsense to me. Here I am typing and a couch lies behind me. The frickin couch is there whether or not my attention is on it in that moment and will remain there while I sleep, eat breakfast, brush my teeth, use the toilet, watch t.v., work all day, playing games, and even posting here. If someone removes it from it's place, that's a different story, but in the meantime ...It's there. Why even test the limits of thought with stuff like that? What good comes from thinking about a glass being half empty or half full?

God is spirit
and God IS all mighty!

Him. Him. Him. Him. All we do is call God a man's gender because thousands of years ago, the people who made up the idea of god opressed women to an unbelievable state. If christianity believes God is omnipitant, god doesnt need to be called Him,Father,Son ect ect.

The problem (the way I see it) is that mankind has become god in their own minds. We build, we create, we sustain, and we even go as far as to think God should be thus and so. Imagine making a plate or a cup or a pot and when finishing your work the item you just made starts questioning "Why did you make me thus and so?" Did you not want to make a plate or cup or pot for whatever purpose you saw fit?

God is God. You can deny Him, turn away from Him, or just totally believe that He doesn't exist because He doesn't fit into your perfect cookie cutting patterns that you believe He should follow after. I'll respond in greater detail after I've read the last few posts a little later.

If the christian God had no followers, he would have no influnce on the world.

Okay... so this thread got quite unphilosophical quite quickly. Let me try something different.

Firstly in response to people who say that our human logic is incapable of understanding god etc, so whatever we say or think is pointless. People have used this kind of excuse for millenia for many different things. 'Oh no, my husband knows best, he can beat me, I won't question it'. 'Oh no, the King/Government knows best, I'll send my son to be killed at war, I won't question it'. 'Oh no, God lets a tsunami kill 200,000 people, but I wont question it'. Its a copout, and a sign that your fear of thinking for yourself and the conclusions you might come to, is greater than your fear of the consequences of not doing so. Questioning authority and logically examining beliefs is the only way humanity will ever reach any form of enlightenment.

If we had never questioned God or the bible, imagine how homosexuals would be treated. It is because we have our logic, and do question authority that we can realise things such as 'actually, gay people are no different really, there is nothing 'evil' about them, they're just attracted to the same sex, wheres the harm in that?'. We would also have no contraception, would wear no man made fibers, would think masturbation a sin, and the immense suffering caused by christianity throughout the ages would be rampaging. It is only people questioning the people in authority, thinking for themselves, and questioning the bible throughout history that have prevented this state of affairs, and let us evolve into a society that has so many more freedoms than it used to.

This progress will never be stopped, although it will always be slow. Wherever there are people questioning authority, preventing progress, there are those that will stand in the way. They always lose, but it takes a long time. Our logic and questioning of authority has brought down many authorities throughout history, and has brought down many freedom constricting institutions.

In my opinion, in the last few centuries, a revolution has started due to the spread of freedom of speech, across the globe, and eventually it will bring down and kill forever the greatest authority and myth created by man, God himself. Only then, when this cloak of mysticism and fantasy has been stripped away will we see the world for what it is, begin to understand it better, and then we can start to right the wrongs in our society, on the basis of logic and morality. Those who have used God to disguise their prejudices will be stripped bare, and forced to confront themselves and their fears. Those for whom religion was merely a complex comfort blanket will see the world for the first time. Those who used religion as a motive for aggression, and a means to fulfil their greed will be exposed, and will no longer be able to use 'good' and 'evil' to divide the world into black and white, or to use their religion to fool people into seeing it the same way. And people who perform kind acts will do so because they care about people, just because they are people, not because of any reward/punishment system in the afterlife. Things will still of course be far from perfect, but we will start to see things clearer, when the shrowd of mysticism is pulled back and the harsh light of reality lays our follies bare before us. Only by questioning authority, no matter who or what it is, and using our limited logic will be ever bring about these changes.

If people want to opt out, to have blind faith, thats their choice, but I for one will use my mind, my plodding and limited logic, to the best of my ability, because in the end, only good can come of it, and i encourage everyone else to do the same.

Secondly, I noticed a little about the problem of evil and the free will defence in the bible study thread. Not wanting to hijack the thread, I'll ask the question here; what if I dont want free will? Putting aside the fact I don't think there are any logical grounds whatsoever for believing we have free will, what if i said to God 'yeah thanks and all that, this free will thingy is very nice, but tbh I'm fairly fed up of seeing starving people on my TV screen everyday, of children being beaten and wives being raped, and men killing eachother, so thanks, but no thanks'? Anyones thoughts?