| A religion thread with a difference | |
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Gil-Galad - Student  |
Quote: Its not a good idea to discuss religion in a philosophical way on these forums...so i will restrain myself from answering your question. I noticed mastas post on Jeramias thread in this forum, and he is right. But part of the reason he is right is because there isnt currently a thread for such discussion. There are threads that deal with the bible, which is a wholly different issue, and to me, an irrelevant one. So this thread is for more general discussion of religion, in a philosophical manner. And by philosophical I mean logical, reasoned, objective arguments. Please no emotive language, and no claims which you cant or aren't willing to back up e.g. 'All religious people are stupid!', or 'God exists because the bible says so!' If you want to try and back up your arguments then fine, no claims without support. Every claim you make must be justifiable, every single sentence, every word. And above all, lets keep the tone respectful  So, to get the ball rolling: Religion originated as a construct of the human psyche, a defence mechanism against the harshness and mysterious nature of the reality we inhabit. For someone thousands of years ago; lightning. Today; the afterlife. This is why we see the same features in ancient gods at opposite ends of the globes, and the same fables, when there is no possible way they could travel that distance: because wherever you are from, whatever language you speak, you share the same instinctive fears of the unknown e.g. death, with everyone else. This fear was the premise of religion, and continues to be a major draw to it today, and is what has been used by those in power for thousands of years to get the masses to behave in whatever way they wish them to. Thoughts? _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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True, these things have happened throughout time, but I feel more so now then ever. A true study would have to be done to pull apart the full message of the end times to see the full picture along with spiritual messages, but that's not what this thread is about. Whether the message is vague or not is not the point though. The message is there and it is up to God to move in those who He would have listen for it to mean anything. One therefore can't really complain that God doesn't tell us the reasons for thus and so if the message is there. That's the point I was trying to make. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down. 
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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Those things in Luke are vague and have happened in various forms for centuries. You cant say its referring to the presesnt day. There have always been wars and natural disasters. People 200 years ago would have thought it referred to them as its so ambiguous and can apply to any age throughout history. I do agree with most all of what you said regarding the hypocrisy of the average churchgoing american. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life This comment was edited by Gil-Galad on Mar 05 2005 05:19pm. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: Of course the christian response would be that God has his own reasons for doing those things. Personally I think he should tell us what they are to save us a lot of heartache and suffering. In Luke 21:7-11, 25-28 we read: 7) So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 8) And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 9) "But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately." 10) Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11) "And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 25) "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26) "men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27) "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28) "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." Here He is to the best of my interpretation telling us that these things will come to pass and they are happening, but there are two problems. 1 - No ones seeking what the Lord has to say about these things. I wonder if anyone complaining about God not doing anything has ever actually picked up a Bible to try to hear His message. 2 - Those who hear the Word don't listen or believe. We've had this in writting for over two thousand years now and with everyone making their predictions on the end of the world, you think people would be studying scriptures such as these. He knew these things would happen and He knew how humans would react to them. He even went so far as to tell us ahead of time as a sign that the end times are hear. As far as the hired pool attendant/lifeguard is concerned, exactly at what point did you put God in charge of saving lives all around the world? Where does it say in His Word that we will never come into harms way upon earth under His wing? He does tell us to seek Him first and His righteousness and all other things will be added unto us but that doesn't mean that true believers will live a life of no harm, hurt, or danger. With that scripture in mind, we turn to American the beautiful going to church once a week for an hour or two, maybe more and maybe less for all the different divisions. None of these people ever questioning why they are divided, but they go right on worshipping in a way that is pleasing to them. That's why their is division after all, for us and what we think. So now these so-called religious people leave their places of worship and go back to their respected lives where they cut people off shouting bitter curses and giving fingers, arguing with cash clerks over the dumbest things, ready to throw down and fight with managers at movie theaters because machinery fails and they can't deal with that. Some rob, cheat, and steal. Some get pregnant before marriage trying to capture someone in a relationship and others leave their mates after they get them pregnant. Yeah, a real prime example of God loving people who want to do His will above all other things. Then you get the rest of corp. America, "The statis quo group" who sees all of the pretty ribbons and Flags and God bless America stickers and they don't want to be left or singled out so they follow suit and do the same. God commands people to go into the world preaching His gospel, but most just go to church giving their money whether small or large amounts and are content with that never searching out His Word, never wanting to hear from the Lord, never wanting to truely do His will. What their pastors and preachers and priests say is good enough for them. They worship these men more then God. America is just a self serving, prideful, don't give a damn about the hungry and homeless here while letting tons of grain and food go to waist each year and building golf courses instead of low cost housing, gives money to foriegn powers to attack other countries and gets stabbed in the back when the terrorist use our own money and weapons to attack us. Yeah, God should really be looking out for us when the adverage church going John Doe rushes home from church on Sunday so he doesn't miss his precious football game on t.v.. If I were God and I created humans and they acted like that towards me, I would have already rained down hell fire and brimstone and destroyed everybody and everything in it's wickedness and complete rebellion. I'm thankful that God is a merciful God and hasn't done so yet. Praise God for His wonderful mercies. Whether or not He exists will be answered in a few short years either in His return or in our deaths but He is in no way a kid with an antfarm. When I heard about the tsunami and thought about what that must have been like, it reminded me of the flood in Noah's day where all flesh was destroyed and I shaked with fear inside asking myself, "How soon is it?" I knew exactly why God allowed such a terrible thing to happen and it really is such a dramatic sign pointing to the fact that there's not much time left now and we all must face the question of, "Are we ready to meet God?" I don't have enough assurance to say yes for myself. As I've said before, I don't have full trust in my views nor in the fact that I'm saved yet. I just hope and pray that through God's Word, myself along with many others will become saved. I hope this sheds a little light on some of the statements and questions posted. God Bless. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Mar 08 2005 03:58pm. |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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Not a big believer but. Well some would say that he has a plan. But i don't think he "makes" anything happen. That would mess with free will. We wouldn't really have a choice in the matter would we? _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
This comment was edited by Vasper Ba'xian on Mar 05 2005 02:50pm. |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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Of course the christian response would be that God has his own reasons for doing those things. Personally I think he should tell us what they are to save us a lot of heartache and suffering. If there is a purpose to the tsunami, I would like it if God told us, rather than tapping his nose and going 'aha, its for your own good, trust me, run along now' which strikes me as arrogant in the extreme. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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Regarding 9-11 or the recent Tsunami in Asia God Bless America! (But Please, Not As You "Blessed America" on September 11th or in the Tsunami!) With so many of my fellow Americans slapping "God Bless America" decals all over everything, it makes me stop and wonder. I wonder about the poor quality of "Blessing America" Biblegod did on September 11th, 2001 or the recent Tsunami, as he sat on his holy hemorrhoids and did nothing to "bless" America. Seeing how he did such a piss-poor job at "blessing" us then, what makes the God Blessers think he'd do any better in the future? Let's say you're the guy in the neighborhood with the pool. Last Saturday, you asked your neighbor Joe Hovah to be the lifeguard for all the neighborhood kids as they swam, so you could run to the store for a six pack. When you got back, ambulances were leaving your house. It turns out that four kids had drowned while you were gone. It also turns out that Joe Hovah had witnessed the whole thing, and just let it happen. He sat there, watched the kids struggle to stay above water, watched each kid go under, and didn't even get out of his seat. He even filmed the whole thing with his camcorder while it was happening, so he could enjoy watching it again and again. If you were to ever again ask Joe Hovah to be lifeguard for the kids in the pool, you'd be considered a fool who doesn't learn from his mistakes. Yet this is exactly what Christians of America are making with the Biblegod. They are asking this do-nothing god to do what he was too lazy or stupid to do on September 11th or in the Tsunami; that it, "bless America". For on September 11th(or the recent Tsunami), Biblegod knew the right thing to do, the good thing, and he did it not. Either God is a kid with an ant farm or he doesn't exist. Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.- (James 4:17 KJV) - I'm only taking what i read from another thread on a different site. _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Mar 05 2005 10:38am. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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Of course I could get lots of answers, thats what makes it interesting. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Duffman - Student 
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welcome to another grey area of the numerous branches of christianity. Depending on the branch, or person, you could get any number of answers for that question. Which is why there are so many splits in the christian comunity. People have this nagging habit of dissagreeing  _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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I see. That is the stand taken by a lot of churches here in England. Now, say the tribesman (hereby called bob) lives in a society where it is considered normal practice to kill someone who cheats on their partner. As Bob has grown up in a society where this is fine, and he knows no differently, he is obviously going to believe this is the normal thing to do. 'Custom is king' - Heraclitus. Now, say Bobs brother Jim cheats on his partner. Bob now has to take part in a ritual killing. Despite the fact this is his brother, he knows that this is the right thing to do, and along with the rest of the males of the tribe, they kill Jim. What would the position be of someone who holds the beliefs you mentioned in this situation? In other words, is 'leading a good life' relative to Gods idea of a 'good' life or to the society you belong tos idea of a 'good' life? _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life This comment was edited by Gil-Galad on Mar 04 2005 08:23pm. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Well Antinanco, I will point out that Koyi's views and ideas, and religion are not the only one there, and not necessarily correct. I'm sure he'll acknowledge that there is the potential some of his views may not be correct but they're the ones he feels are most right. The idea that only the people who follow one specific religion exactly to a T will go to heaven, is not one held by all Christian religions. Some do allow that not everyone agrees on everything so if you live a good life, believe in your faith, even if its not the "correct" one, there is still the chance for you to get into heaven. If they believe in their religion and aren't following it thinking that it is wrong they might still find salvation. So if your tribesman followed his beliefs, lived a good life, was a good man, then he might not be condemned to hell. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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You raised a really interesting point I had never thought about Kain: what about people who will never hear of God or the bible? A hypothetical example: a native amazonian tribesman might never have contact with the outside world, let alone with a bible. How are they supposed to find God I wonder? According to the bible, because they do not believe in the christian God, or follow the bible, then they will go to hell. Of course they can still believe in a god, or gods, because every single society creates its own gods, but no matter what, they are doomed to hell from the moment they are born. They have no chance to redeem themselves, as they arent even aware of the existence of Christianity. And God would be aware of this of course, so following from that, God doesnt want them to follow His word etc. which strikes me as somewhat odd, what could His reasons be for that? And of course if you take this a step further, what about all the people prior to the rise of Judaism? Where did they go in the afterlife? Presumably god was there, but there was no Judaism, and even the people who believed in the God that would eventually turn into the Judaeo-Christian God would most certainly not have followed the laws of those religions. So what happened to them in the afterlife? I havent thought this through yet, or looked up if there is actually any philosophical text that deals with it, I'm just pointing out that thats a really good point you mentioned that I've never considered before. Definitely food for thought. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Kainz00r - Jedi Knight 
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I have a question, if anyone can provide an answer. If 'god' knows us before we're born, and therefore knows how all our lives are going to play out, then what's he waiting for? Whats his reason(s) for letting us live our lives, for us to enjoy it? Because alot of people in the world suffer, and could never even hear of the bible in their lifetimes. And I think I remember hearing "Faith is the key" or something along those lines once, sorry if it's not true. But if it is, then are those people going to be 'saved' even though they don't know of the existence of the bible and what it teaches? If there was a god who created this world, then wouldn't he have the power to control it? In a world so corrupt, how are you supposed to have faith. Because you read about it in a collection of books commonly known as the bible, and because people have preached it to you? To me, faith is hope, and it lets people beleive there's something better than this world which may help them endure rough times. But if I had a god, he wouldnt let things be so corrupt. A 'god' worth praising would help solve the problems in the world, but the one praised in Christianity doesnt seem to. You can say "But he acts through the people, little things that change situations that he means to happen". Well, ok then. How about when things go wrongly, whos fault is that? Ours of course. And when things look up, who's responsible then? Us. I mean no offence to anyone by posting this, but the way I see it "faith" is a hope offered to those who need hope in their lives. Sorry if anything I posted was out of my opinion and incorrect, I only wanted to ask those questions and post my thoughts. _______________ Fervent supporter of duelling - leave a message if you would like to battle! Married to Masta. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: and have ppl understand that no insult should be taken by anything read here, and that we all just want to get allong and have a chat about our thoughts. Minus all of the personal attacks and deleted posts. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Plo Koon - Student
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Quote: I just want to point out one thing and I'm done. I chose to follow what religious men of old wrote and taught while others chose to follow what men of our day write down and teach. Not really that much of a difference if you think about it. I mean, is everyone in this argument the ones with the billion dollar equipment up in space or in the oceans checking this stuff out for themselves? No. It's rediculous for us to say this is this because this one told me! Do you have any proof that space is so? Do I have any proof the ocean water is made of marshmellow fluff? You really can't back up your statements because your going off what others have said and the same goes for me. There's some theological thought for us all, but more scientific then either of us really sees. We haven't discovered the proof. What if what we learned is lies? When the first man walked on the moon, it was later believed that it was staged in a set. This whole thread is rediculous from the beginning to the end. Unless we all go on some billion dollar field trips with really expensive equipment and fancy suits, we won't really know anything for ourselves now will we? Then again, in a few short years we all will die at some point and then we will really know. Let us bury this thread and put it to rest because that is where it belongs where the true answers will be discovered in due time. This is only my opinion. Also, I wasn't directing anything at any one person. Quite a few people came right out guns a blazing so my comments weren't directed at sole individuals. I'll direct my time into something more constructive. Koyi out. You could say all that about the other thread,We have no proof of anything. People go to wars and kill eachother because they know what they believe,is true no matter what,but their is no proof. I read some of a book about Socrates Last Speech,Before they made him drink a cup of poisan for showing people how to think on their own.let me recite one line. "Oh dont cry so much you sissy's,It is either 1 of 2 things. When you die,its a dreamless sleep,Nothingness for there is none...Or there is an afterlife and I am certain I have lived my life to be a good man and to strive to do good things, and act with compassion and kindness. I am certain that what I did in this life will do good in my afterlife if there is one." This speech made short is from the book "Apologia: By Plato" Apologia in ancient greek = The Defence. So if you want Philosophy check out that book, Also see the book "The Trial and Death of Socrates: By Plato" "I know,that I know nothing" - Socrates. Admitting that you are ignorant.We are all ignorant. Be with Peace my Jedi Friends.Compassion,kindess and Peace. - Plo _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Mar 03 2005 02:50pm. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: It IS possible to have philosophical discussions about religion, based in logic, I have them every week at uni. I'm just looking for whatever it is that can make someone believe like Koyi does, because right now I cant see it, and I really need to know if there is something out there that Im missing that people like Koyi can see. Because a lot of people are willing to kill or die for it, and I just dont get it. The truth may be my friend that you will never find your answers for a few reasons. 1) Your not searching the Bible nor are you looking for anything from it and that is the well spring of life giving waters. Romans tells us that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The gospels preach and quote that men do not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 2) God Holy Spirit or the comforter is needed to fully understand His Word and gives His elect confidence in knowing that they are His children. God works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure the Bible tells us. Without His Word nor His Spirit, you will never find what you are looking for. 3) Your not looking for answers with an open mind. That's like doing an experiment, but not using valuble equipment for whatever reason. Faith isn't something that can be achieved with test tubes and theories, it's a gift from God. The Bible does record God giving commands to the people of Israel to kill off all who dwelt in the lands that He gave them in hopes of making His promise secure, but in no way do I believe in killing for religious reasons beyond that. The crusades or whatever other holy wars their might have been was drivin by blood thirsty men, not by God. Alot of people have used religion to mask their evils and you are 100% right about that, but that doesn't speak about all of them. Being killed for it can be tied to mental illness or some other type of disorder I'm sure, but it would be futile to discuss that without any proof on the mental states of these people when being beheaded, sawn assunder, etc.. If you really want to know and I mean really want to know what drives christians, try reading the Bible. Read it slowly, take it in, search it out. Not saying that you will understand it's lessons and teachings beyond the letters of the page nor am I saying God will save you if you do, but that it only the real way one can search out God. John tells us that in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Give it a try if your serious about the teachings of faith. All you will do is waist some of your time if you don't find what your looking for, but isn't that what this thread is doing anyway? Quote: All I want is to understand faith really i.e. where does it come from, does it have ANY logic, or does it just pop into your life one day, or is it purely peoples personal experiences that cause it? Logically, in a spiritual sense, yes it does have logic to it but many disbelieve it because it's something they haven't experienced. Why believe in anything then? It is like randomly selecting something not to believe in because it can be debated. Quote: And Koyi, your last point about how do I know all those things are true because I havent seen them, does exactly the thing you criticised idealism for. I know it does. That's why I wrote it. But it does shine through. You won't believe in the Bible because it was written by a bunch of old dusty men thousands of years ago but these people were experts on faith. The had God's Spirit within them as they wrote this book so the Bible teaches. You reject the very thing that can give you answers for what you seek. I don't seek out science because it is flawed. I don't trust it's books nor do I trust the men that wrote them. Are aliens out there? Many people will tell you that they have seen U.F.O.'s but you probably don't believe because you haven't seen it. You haven't tested the microwave level's in space or anything else you cling to either, but blindly believe what others have told you living up to the statis quo of society today. It's up to you and only you to believe in what you want and that's the point I make. Can't believe some, how then can you believe all is my question. If it is truth you seek, you will never truely find it then.  _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Duffman - Student
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Gill, from my experiance, there are 3 kinds of people in this world, when it comes to stuff like this. There are sheep, Shepherds, and the people that question everything. There is something wrong with blind obediance, yes, and if you believe everything just because someone said "This is true becuase I said so" then you are quite silly. By the same token, there is something wrong if you believe something just because you think so. You are correct in one thing - quiet, thought provoking discussions about religion can take place without people getting emotional and angery about it; even between people that believe different things. You and I have had them on several occasions if i recall  If you were wondering why people believe or think as they do, and you want an honest answer, and dont want to put ppl on the offencive, and do it in a public setting such as this where you don't get any of the context of face to face communication, you need to pick your words very carefully. Which is why i kept my nose out of this thread for the most part, i tend to get very preachy when I dont mean to, and when it isnt needed (which is part of the reason im acting so silly )Now, this thread COULD keep on its path and get ppl irritated, or it could be a very interesting part of the site. Things just need to be worded differently, and have ppl understand that no insult should be taken by anything read here, and that we all just want to get allong and have a chat about our thoughts. If this thread stay's alive, I will try to put my beliefs into words, but as these things tend to be, it is a very personal thing, and not always the easiest to discuss. Have fun and play nice _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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Quote:
Quote: So this thread is for more general discussion of religion, in a philosophical manner. And by philosophical I mean logical, reasoned, objective arguments. I never noticed that sentence before. If you're going to argue about religion, you go an do it somewhere else, on someone else's forum where people don't care. You do no do it here. The only reason these religious threads are allowed to be created are in hopes that people don't argue about it, instead they respect eachothers views and beliefs. Had I read the starting post in the first place, I would've spoken out against this thread when it was first created. However, I did not, but I am now. Go ask people to "prove their God exists" eslewhere. Ok I see your point, but I didnt mean argument as in a shouting at eachother kind of thing, getting all worked up and stuff. I really only meant debate, I'm just used to calling it arguments. I can respect someones beliefs and at the same time ask them about them, ask how they back them up and question them IF that person is willing to put up with me. All essentially I want to do at the end of the day is see other peoples points of views. It IS possible to have philosophical discussions about religion, based in logic, I have them every week at uni. I havent been offended by anything Koyi says, I havent got worked up, and I really hope that I havent upset Koyi because at the end of the day, I'm just looking for whatever it is that can make someone believe like Koyi does, because right now I cant see it, and I really need to know if there is something out there that Im missing that people like Koyi can see. Because a lot of people are willing to kill or die for it, and I just dont get it. If I have stepped out of line at any point I have no problem with someone telling me 'ant, you're being an ass, shush' but it is possible to have a logical discussion about religion without problems. If people here disagree, and say that it isnt, I understand and I'll take it somewhere where people think otherwise. Duff, I agree with almost everything you said, how weird . Except for the world wide flood thing, which I've looked into recently after you mentioned it to me before. All I want is to understand faith really i.e. where does it come from, does it have ANY logic, or does it just pop into your life one day, or is it purely peoples personal experiences that cause it? Thats my purpose and if people think I'm here just to rag on religion, I can do that if you want, I can go off on how I think religion is dangerous in any way shape or form but I wont, thats not my purpose here, I keep those thoughts to myself. All I want is to see if there are any logical groundings for religion that I can understand. If there aren't then fine, just say so And Koyi, your last point about how do I know all those things are true because I havent seen them, does exactly the thing you criticised idealism for. I disagree of course about the difference or lack of that you find between scientific writing and religious writing, and your points about science, but if you're gonna drop from this thread then I understand and I wont bother going into it I'll let this die if thats what people want, but I only wanted a philosophical discussion about religion, but nevermind. Basically everything that masta said in his last post that I just noticed is basically what I've been trying to say _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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I just want to point out one thing and I'm done. I chose to follow what religious men of old wrote and taught while others chose to follow what men of our day write down and teach. Not really that much of a difference if you think about it. I mean, is everyone in this argument the ones with the billion dollar equipment up in space or in the oceans checking this stuff out for themselves? No. It's rediculous for us to say this is this because this one told me! Do you have any proof that space is so? Do I have any proof the ocean water is made of marshmellow fluff? You really can't back up your statements because your going off what others have said and the same goes for me. There's some theological thought for us all, but more scientific then either of us really sees. We haven't discovered the proof. What if what we learned is lies? When the first man walked on the moon, it was later believed that it was staged in a set. This whole thread is rediculous from the beginning to the end. Unless we all go on some billion dollar field trips with really expensive equipment and fancy suits, we won't really know anything for ourselves now will we? Then again, in a few short years we all will die at some point and then we will really know. Let us bury this thread and put it to rest because that is where it belongs where the true answers will be discovered in due time. This is only my opinion. Also, I wasn't directing anything at any one person. Quite a few people came right out guns a blazing so my comments weren't directed at sole individuals. I'll direct my time into something more constructive. Koyi out. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Mar 03 2005 05:32am. |
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Duffman - Student 
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oh yes lets not get in the whole proof aspect of all of this. quite simply put - Many smart and knowledgeable men and women over the years have debated this for many many many years. However, there is one major flaw in this thread, and all discussions like this that have ever taken place- You are asking us to prove things that are, at best, working theories, hypothosies, and the occasional random guess. Is there proof of evolution? Some, but there are large gaps everywere in the theory (no it is not a proven fact or a law, unless someone was around all those years ago to see it happen, or someone finds enough facts to scientificaly call it a law) Is there proof of the big bang? Some, but to say such a thing is a certainty and expect everyone to believe it as such is as bad as the telemarketer that woke me up at 7 am this past saterday asking me if i wanted to change long distance service. Is there proof of some of the events that happened in the bible? Oh yes, but not all of them. There is scientific evidence of the world wide flood, that someone named Jesus did live in the time that he was supposed to, and many other things. You want proof in religion? I can "prove" many things. I can prove that there is some higher power out there, if you accept certain principles of thought. And in the next sentance, disprove it utterly, using the same ideas. And also disprove anything else I stated in the discussion. However, that discussion would be meaningless if one of several things happens- 1 - You go into such a discussion with a closed mind 2 - You go into such a discussion with a lack of respect for the person or the subject matter (basicly same as the above statement) 3 - You allow a purely scientific discussion to get emotional Now having said all that, i wish to say a few things that might be relivant to the current topic You ask for proof of things that are religious in context, and that in itself is a flawed arguement. What is religion? Or better put - What is Faith? Faith is believing in something we can not see, or dont understand. Our understanding of the universe is far from complete or correct. We know the barest fraction about our own planet and the creatures on it. This is my point after all that mess tee hee All the discussion in this thread, while interesting and thought provoking, is based on a large flaw- Asking for proof about religion, when religion is used to explain things in the absence of proof, is silly The question (or thread subject or whatever it is now lol) would be better put as this - Why do you think as you do? Science has yet to answer most of the really good questions, Religion answers some. One or the other, it makes no difference - its what you believe and what you think that matters. Don't fault someone just because they think something different from you. Now my question for this thread - Why was science started originaly? Have fun! And play nice _______________ *Sigh* Married to Mirael D'kana, Former master to Shangri Stomwind and Crash D'Kana, Owner of Gil-Galad's 100th post, Khâ D'Kana's 700th post, and friend to just about everyone This comment was edited by Duffman on Mar 03 2005 02:56am. |
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Gradius - Ex-Student 
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Quote: So this thread is for more general discussion of religion, in a philosophical manner. And by philosophical I mean logical, reasoned, objective arguments. I never noticed that sentence before. If you're going to argue about religion, you go an do it somewhere else, on someone else's forum where people don't care. You do no do it here. The only reason these religious threads are allowed to be created are in hopes that people don't argue about it, instead they respect eachothers views and beliefs. Had I read the starting post in the first place, I would've spoken out against this thread when it was first created. However, I did not, but I am now. Go ask people to "prove their God exists" eslewhere. _______________ - Proud padawan of Kueller. - We really are at the beginning of it all. The trick, of course, is to make sure we never find the end. - Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything - <gen-e-sis-happy> Liek, you can train, liek, a n00b, but he'll just be a trained n00b... --> Wise words! - "daer SOE me likes your a company i am having your some money for letting me do stuff cos mes the best amd i do it all meself" - Slider |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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Alright, I'll chime in here: Quote: So this thread is for more general discussion of religion, in a philosophical manner. And by philosophical I mean logical, reasoned, objective arguments. Tell me one religion of any kind that has a firm base in logic. If it all made perfect sense that you could touch, taste and smell, then why would you deem yourself "Regligous". No matter what religion you claim, or what foundation you base your ground zero, it ALL requires some element of Faith. Faith = Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. So, if you want to have a grounded conversation about things that make sense then have your philosophy convo, but dont sit there and say that this is a religious conversation, but the only way we can talk about it is if logic and reason play the major role. (just my 2 cents) Oh and Koyi and Smily's God IS the one true God.... /me runs -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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Raziel Anjelis - Student 
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I agree with tido on this one. Arguing religion is like fighting in the trenches or an argument over who is the better: men or women. Lots of blood and pain, very little ground gained. We as a part of a community have different ethical, social and religious beliefs. If you don't belive in God, then that is ok with me. Just remember the fact that we must all respect each others faiths and beliefs. This argument has been going on since the Greeks and has there been any proof of either Creation or Big Bang? I personaly think we should leave this here, as HW says...before things escalate. Oh, and I am a christian as well, i do believe in God. _______________ Proud owner of El Vee For's 200th Comment, and Wicek's 2600th comment DaMi3N's 400th, Trad Redav's 666th.
This comment was edited by Raziel Anjelis on Mar 02 2005 11:42pm. |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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I think Koyi was just stating his opinion thats all. I dont think he feels he has the real truth at all actually. /me huggles Koyi!!!!!!!! _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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This thread wasnt originally created to argue about religion...the topic of this thread isnt called "The big Question: Religion, fake or real?" This thread was basically about discussing religion in a philosophical way.None of us here wanted to argue about the validation of religion...until a very faithfull and friendly chap came along and started to talk about his opinions like they would be the only truth...(no offence Koyi...im pretty glad you came along and started those really huge and interesting discussions...otherwise this thread wouldnt have lasted very long =/...so everyone give Koyi a big hug for keeping this very informative thread alive woot =D ) *hugs Koyi* Oh and yea...Be Cool definately looks like a cool movie. /agree with Leif _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. This comment was edited by Masta on Mar 02 2005 10:56pm. |
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Fire - Student 
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Tido makes a very valid point, no one can have control over them for what they can or cannot believe in. by the way, Be Cool looks like a funkadelic movie. |
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