The Jedi Academy- Some things that need clearing up.

Some things that need clearing up.

Jul 21 2005 09:10am

Aron
- Retired

Alright, obviously, there are some things that need clearing up here.
Before I even start writing this post, I do know that some people will simply ignore what I write down here and continue whining about things anyway, but here is the staff’s point of view.

That’s right. Not my point of view, the STAFF’s point of view, based on the Academy rules combined with common sense.

Banning controversy

Controversy?

What controversy? Controversy implies that this is matter that is a problem to both the students as the staff. So far, the only problem that the staff has with this is the fact that bans are, sadly, necessary.

Staff members are not here to wait for people to slip up and ban them.

True, on some occasions it has happened that a student was banned for what seemed only a small offence. An example of this is the recent ban of Lianiotte. I hate to bring up any specific matters in threads like these, but for clarity’s sake, I must.

Lianiotte had been pushing the boundaries for quite a while already on IRC on that particular occasion, mostly speaking about sex in such a way that it was definitely not fit for the #jedi-academy, if that topic can be fit at all in a channel for a Jedi Academy.
Just like the rules imply that you don’t get kicked for a single swear-word, Lianiotte was not kicked right away after one remark. However, Lianiotte has the tendency to lose control, just like what happened in this case. At a certain point, she came in conflict with another student who was at that time in the channel, and was bothered with it.
These are the last few lines before her ban, to give you a short impression:

Quote:

[17:42] <Lian|WoW> If I was acting like a spoiled child, then I'd be like (if I was your child) "daddy get a penis pleaseeeeeeee"
[17:42] <Lian|WoW> Screw you guys, I'm going home.
[17:42] * Lian|WoW plays WoW

After this, I decided to temporary ban her:

Quote:

[17:43] *** JAbot sets mode: +b *!*aniotte@*.ca.comcast.net
[17:43] *** Lian|WoW was kicked by JAbot (Banned: go home (300 minutes) | Expires: 11:43 PM 07/18/05 GMT)

Shortly after this, we noticed the by-now-infamous “screw you” thread on the forums.
As stated before, Lianiotte knew very well what the most likely consequences of a post like this would have been since she has been on the receiving end of a ban more than once, and since she has been here for quite a while, and thus, should definitely know “how things work” by now.
She took all this in account when she posted what she posted, and the consequences are known to all of us now.

Now, I just want to make a point here:

Would this case have been treated the same way if it was any other student?

Most likely, no. Lianiotte’s ban was a pile-up of continues rule-violations.
Now, wether Lian was simply playing around with a friend of hers or if this was serious, is completely irrelevant.

Remember that joking around with your friends can often be taken the wrong way. And even if it’s just joking around, that does not excuse the behaviour in any way. I will not bring up any more cases in detail, but I am sure a lot of you can think of some other people who had their accounts disabled because all they did was, in their eyes “joke with eachother”.

Again, we do not want people to slip up, and we definitely did not wait for Lianiotte to do it. If that would have been the case, she would not have been re-activated in the first place. However, she abused the trust we put in her, and decided to continue her previous behaviour after a certain while when she thought things would have cooled down around her person again.
Enough of this particular case.

Warnings.

A lot of people seem to think that we should make warnings public. Perhaps you should consider that we have a lot of members who have received an official warning. We even have had staff members amongst them. We are not out to publicly disgrace people, and harsh as it may sound, we do not have to justify our actions to the students. Not because you are the “lower peasant folk” as some of you interpret it as, but simply because in most cases, students simply do NOT have the comfort of reading server logs, checking IP addresses, and reviewing a history of a person in the Academy, like staff members do. Seeing all this, it is reasonable to assume that students do not get the full picture, even though they think they do.
This is not meant in any way disrespectful to students; it is simply how things work. People are nosy by nature, but we simply should not be giving out more information than really is necessary.

Undercover staff members.

I noticed some remarks about undercover staff members.
Since we are talking about undercover staff members, I obviously will not go into too much detail here.
However, some people seem to think that we constantly hop on the servers undercover, trying to lure people in situations so they screw up and we can nail them. I can assure you that this is NEVER the case.

First of all, you highly overestimate the use of these accounts, since they are barely used at all. In fact, I personally NEVER use one, apart from the Padawan nickname I connect with.

Secondly, staff members that DO go undercover on the servers only do this to see how students behave when there is in fact no one to check up on them. We do not only do this when we spot people on the servers who have doubtful reputations, but we do in fact do it a lot on regular occasions also, since it is a GREAT way to see who are the “real” helpful students, and who are just pretending to be.
Shortly put: undercover accounts do not only exist to check up on negative behaviour, but is also very handy to spotting some of the greatest students we have here.

Staff criticism.

There has been a lot of criticism on the staff lately, mostly about the above topics.
Although we do appreciate constructive criticism, we are fed up with the constant flow of complaints that are based on ignorance. Please put yourself in the shoes of the staff members before you address a complaint.

Why complain about an issue before you have even discussed this problem in person?

Most stories always have two sides on them, which makes it extra important to be careful with stirring up so much issues that are in fact based on far less than you actually think.

Linked to this is the lack of respect. Both ways.
We have noticed a major lack of respect in general from the students directed to the staff, both on the servers, forums as IRC. We notice groups of students forming, mumbling their own thoughts in their own private group about how sucky we are.
If there are issues you like to address, we like to see it happen PERSONALLY before you scream murder amongst 500 students. It simply has no point to do that, since in most cases, the majority of the people who read it don’t know the facts, and will give their opinion nonetheless, which results in even more confusion and arguments.

We do not like censorship, and by the above we are not implying that there is any in the Academy. However, we’d like to see you taking the right procedures before intentionally starting a fire in the Academy.

Thread locks and forum policies.

If you read the forums on a regular basis, you have most likely noticed that there has been a major increase in the amount of thread locks and edits. Again, this is not because we censor things, but simply because we want to encourage you all to think before you act. I can not think of a single thread the has been unrightfully locked.
True, sometimes a thread will be locked for preventive reasons. As much as we hate to do it, we do believe it is necessary. If you see this happening and you disagree with this, we are always open to a normal conversation about this.
You will definitely not reach anything by creating another forum post over it, or private messaging a staff member “OMG YOU LOCKED MY THREAD WHYYYY” in IRC.

Staff responsibilities

Most of the above applies to staff members also. We are also still human beings, with busy real lifes, just like the most of you (with exception of Gradius). We also make mistakes, some bigger than the other. Sometimes things don’t come in such a way that you could very well think “that could definitely have been said a lot nicer”. I am applying this to me in particular. I must say that I almost never post something I regret posting. If I say something in a direct way, it is because I intended to do so. Even though in cases like these, it could be said nicer, I choose not to, depending on the situation and to reflect my standpoint on certain matters.

HOWEVER, if you do feel that a post I, or any other staff member makes, is disrespectful, we encourage you to talk to the person in question, so it can hopefully be resolved.

That’s all I have to say right now. Thanks for reading all of this.

Just behave, and everyone can have a great time. Including us

This post was edited by Aron on Jul 21 2005 08:20pm.

Comments

Jul 22 2005 07:25pm

Vasper Ba'xian
- Student

Respectfully put Flux
_______________
Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON

.My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.

Jul 22 2005 07:07pm

Flux
- Student

The reason some of the students seem to start things up based on ignorance is because of the rather "cloak-and-dagger" way the council seems to operate on. Many times, the explanation for the actions of the council is that it's "behind the scenes". To the students, it does seem like the council is inactive and indifferent when all the things that they do are "behind the scenes" stuff that people assume they are not worthy of knowing about because they're just normal plebes and not ranked members. On some occasions, it feels like things are kept a secret so that the people up top can feel more important in in control, or that they are kept a secret just because they can be. Sometimes the students do feel like "lower peasant folk" when they hear the normal "e-mail fixtheja@thejediacademy.net" response to a problem, and when they wonder about all the secrets that happen behind the Academy curtain, even more mystery is conjured when someone ranked says "you'd understand if you were in our shoes". It's understandable that some students would start unnecessary fires when there's such a large gap between the normal students and the higher-ups.

I'm not saying that it is necessary to publicly shame people, but others do get uneasy when the silent wrath of the council decides that someone needs banning and all actions of the offender are edited or deleted. Even a little bit of an explanation could be useful, not a full report or anything, but at least more than a "You're Banned Mister!" picture on the person's profile picture.

And people do get uneasy when they know that the council could be lurking around with undercover accounts or checking server logs and reading their private messages. I know that it is a key tool for the council to pick out outstanding members of the student body, but it does naturally make people uneasy when they know it happens, and they do get the feeling of being spied on. People do tend to get sour with the council and the assumption on how they operate when they are approached by one of the elusive council about a suspicious comment they made in a private message while playing on the server.

Keep in mind that I don't think the council sucks, on the contrary I think that they do their genuine best to make this a better place for the students. These are my assumptions on what limited knowledge I have on the "inner-workings" of the Academy based on what little information I am able to obtain as a normal student. These are my attempts to offer the hopefully appreciated constructive criticism, and hopefully the council can show me some insight as to how it actually is.
_______________
When great gentlemens come together in a place. It could happen. All these gentlemen are Howard's family. Everybody knows them, but nobody knows. Why they come together.......... Just play cards.

Jul 22 2005 09:59am

Dash Starlight
- Jedi Instructor

Quote:

I don't want an exact definition. Rather, my point was that if we never see people getting warned for something we may assume that what they did was acceptable.

I do understand your point of view

The reason you wont see/will hardly ever see an offical warning and such, is because the one receiving is being "protected," not everyone needs to know they're in trouble. If you'd like to know how far you can go before u'll get punished for something, well, you dont need to know. Theres no real need to know the 'limits,' its much more important to know the rules, which'll ensure you wont pass these limits. I know u mean that, when someone gets kicked/banned for something, u'd like to know why, so u know what behaviour is aceptable and which'll get u into trouble. I again say, u dont need to know, all you need to do is to follow the rules as described on the rules page, and you wont ever do something that'll get u in the position to be kicked/banned at all. (EDIT: Actually, the rules page kinda describes completely what behaviour is and isnt acceptable, thats all, plus, add 'respect' to all u do, as a thing of common sense.)

Lastly, if ur worried about getting kicked/banned for something straight away, dont worry, in the worst case, ull receive an official warning that'll, when it's followed, bring you ack within these "limits." There'll really be warnings prior to a kick/ban, etc

_______________
The name is Bond. James Bond.

This comment was edited by Dash Starlight on Jul 22 2005 10:42am.

Jul 21 2005 11:17pm

Tallepyon
- Student

Quote:

Fate,
Just because you did not see the official warning does not mean that she did not get one. There is no need to try to draw a means of comparison here Fate. Lian has been asking for this for a long time, which again, has nothing to do with "If you saw it" or not. This place is more than fair and tolerant. Too much if you ask me, look at JJ, I rest my case.

Just because you see something as unfair, you don't have the whole story, nor is it your right to know it. Between these two threads of yours I have been seeing you make a lot of assumptions. Assumptions that are not even yours to make, much less comment on, MUCH LESS... Out in Public. Mind your own business.

And do us all a favor, let the ranked do thier jobs and let us JAS do what we always do, have fun and quit taking this past time and great place to a drama driven shyte hole that no one can stand to look at.

cheers,
-DM-

I couldnt agree anymore than I do with that. I was going to right something similar eariler, but I couldnt get a good way to write it going. You were a litte harsh, but it got the job done. I couldnt have done better.

Jul 21 2005 10:15pm

CuZzA
- Student

Quote:

Good post Aron, Well said.

Quote:

Just because you see something as unfair, you don't have the whole story, nor is it your right to know it. Between these two threads of yours I have been seeing you make a lot of assumptions. Assumptions that are not even yours to make, much less comment on, MUCH LESS... Out in Public. Mind your own business.

I do believe it's up to the JAC to let fate know what his business is Moby. Not yours.

Not really...It really wasn't his business tbh

_______________
- Even if Carlsberg made "w*nkers", Christiano Ronaldo would still be the biggest "w*nker" in the world

Jul 21 2005 10:04pm

Vasper Ba'xian
- Student

Good post Aron, Well said.

Quote:

I do believe it's up to the JAC to let fate know what his business is Moby. Not yours.

_______________
Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON

Jul 21 2005 09:31pm

DaRtH-MoBiLiTy
- Student

Jul 21 2005 07:00pm

Fate
- Student

I don't want an exact definition. Rather, my point was that if we never see people getting warned for something we may assume that what they did was acceptable.
_______________
I must not fear . Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear . I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Gom gom gom gom gom!

Jul 21 2005 04:54pm

AvaloN
- Student

Quote:

"What is acceptable behavior?"

An easy one: read Dash's post

Why does one need an exact definition of a "that's how far u can go, and no further"-line?

As Dash said, common sense is the key word.

Jul 21 2005 04:49pm

Dash Starlight
- Jedi Instructor

There's a rules page that will go over the basic rules to the JA. Other than that, theres common sense. Just make sure all of your actions are respectful, and you'll be fine

That may sound as an unsatisfying answer, but it isnt actually. Apply "respect" to every action you take, it being chatting in IRC, participating in a class, duelling on the servers, solving problems with people, etc, etc. I hope that helps a bit

_______________
The name is Bond. James Bond.

Jul 21 2005 04:11pm

Fate
- Student

Seeing as I feel at least a degree of this is aimed at me and my thread, I just wanted to clarify that I understand why the staff acts as they do, and I've held many similar positions in other communities, but it is for that reason that I made my post. My criticism was not of your use of administrative powers to deal with a situation, or to doubt your judgement in whether or not action had to be taken, it was instead to address the way in which you chose to take action, the effect it has on the community beyond the individual who it was aimed at, and better ways that you could have responded.

As I stated in the other thread, whether or not you ban is your decision, and I understand the desire to not publicly shame anyone, however when you act and do not explain your actions the rest of us are left to wonder "What is acceptable behavior?" because obviously you felt that there had been an example of such behavior but it may not be clear specifically what is and is not against the rules. You've said that those who have been around here the longest should know what's against the rules, but if you act in secrecy then we have no previous experiences to temper our actions.

Edit: There are additional things that I felt needed considering but since I've already put all my thoughts in one thread, I won't spam the forum or require every one read it a second time by getting full into it here too.
_______________
I must not fear . Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear . I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Gom gom gom gom gom!

This comment was edited by Fate on Jul 21 2005 04:14pm.

Jul 21 2005 12:36pm

SaZ
- Student

well said aron... and grad

_______________
playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Zï¿½diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana

Jul 21 2005 12:09pm

Phantom
- Student

well said Aron
_______________
-Phantom
Ex-Master to Threat.
Proud owner of Sazabi's 1500th comment! And Threats 50th comment
"Insanity: a perfect rational adjustment to an insane world"

Jul 21 2005 11:54am

Gradius
- Ex-Student

Motrec, it's my job to rub your feet on a daily basis.

_______________
- Proud padawan of Kueller.
- We really are at the beginning of it all. The trick, of course, is to make sure we never find the end. - Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything
- <gen-e-sis-happy> Liek, you can train, liek, a n00b, but he'll just be a trained n00b... --> Wise words!
- "daer SOE me likes your a company i am having your some money for letting me do stuff cos mes the best amd i do it all meself" - Slider

Jul 21 2005 11:46am

MOTREC
- Student

so now you have seen into why the council and other ranks are there and how they do their job. accepting the fact that they will do what they do regardless of criticism or people thinking its just not right, do realise that they do what they do because it HAS to be done. if someone your friends with is banned or gets an admin slap (so to speak) know that what they did meritted it and move on or you might make yourself the next one in the hotseat.

i realised this like 4 days after joining the academy. after all this IS NOT a public service where EVERYONE decides who goes or stays, this is place actually belongs to some people and they are kind enough to let us share it. so much love Aron. oh and a is there anyway you could see to it that gradius rubs my feet?

burn rubber not your soul...

MO

This comment was edited by MOTREC on Jul 21 2005 11:48am.

Jul 21 2005 11:39am

AvaloN
- Student

good post m8.

Jul 21 2005 09:40am

JamesF1
- Student

As clear as clear can be

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