| Would you join the Army? | |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student  |
I don't want to see any flaming. if this turns into a flamewar, I'll ask one of the JAC's pronto to close it down In the light of the recent threats and attacks done by Al-Quaeda-Europa I want to ask you the following thing. If your country is attacked, and your country decides to join in on the War Against Terrorism, but no draft is executed, will you join the army? Yay or nay, why? Or the second option: After a couple of countries in the European Union have been attacked, the EU decides to fight Terrorism all over the globe. Again, no draft. Will you join the army? Yay or nay, why? It was only this evening, in the lights of threats executed against Belgium, the capital of the European Union, that I had the same conversation with my girlfriend. I would join. I would feel it is my absolute duty to do so. Why? Because I feel it is necessary to protect other people's freedom. The day you lose faith in society, is the day you lose it. If I have to spend the remainder of my life fighting some terrorist or tiran, so that other people have the freedom of falling in love, getting married and raising thier own kids, then so help me God, I will gladly give my life for it. All I ask is that when it is my time and I get hurt, is that I die for a cause that I completely support, for something I believe in. I want the world to look back at all the deaths and be grateful. Not my death in particular, but all deaths, of all those who died to protect that which we hold dear, what we hold self-evident. When I have died, I want to be able to say to myself "I died for a reason!" That's all I ask. What about you? Again, no flaming. If someone decides something not to your liking, please, please please show respect for this choice and leave it be. _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This post was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Jul 22 2005 10:57am. |
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Threat - Student 
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Join the Army? No way. The Army is a big mess. Join some branch that has their $hit in one bag like the Marines or the Coast Guard.  _______________ - Threat Ex-Unofficial Padawan of Rivian, AKA Chaos Ex-Unofficial Padawan of Phantom Owner of Grycen's 180th comment, Raydoe's 455th comment, and Rivian's EVIL 666th comment! |
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Sared - Retired 
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As as simple answer to this thread, I will neutrally state......"Not quite yet mate."  _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. This comment was edited by Sared on Aug 27 2005 01:08am. |
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Mic Den Octela - Student 
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I use the rare phenermanoneaeononaneoneeemoenamon (You try spelling it...) known as legs.... I have to wait 3 months before im legally allowed to drive.... damn the British way... _______________ -Padawan of Virtue -Brother of Menaxia, *|irael, Krynn Adept, Majno, Ris Win Juljul, DaMi3N, Beowulf, Dash Starlight, Carrock and Yuken Zalak Bartender at Munes bar. Sir Mic of Nippledom! Proudly beating Wang, since '07. (Crackdown) |
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aph3x - Retired 
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yea i joined already. i think i already replied to this post. i dunno. america is doing what it needs to do, and all those other countries are doing what they need to do too. thats it. you dont have to join the military and actively fight the "war", to make a difference. just drive your car, and you're doing enough. and im sure all of you use petroleum. |
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Axio - Student 
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I am in the process of getting out of the army. the original question asked was would you join to help fight GWOT (Global War On Terrorism)? Just as i did a few years back, i would be. Because joining the military is (I believe) a service to your country and your freedoms. I dont believe anyone should be force to join but i do think everyone should provide some service to thier country. Personally i dont have a problem with the army. i just am ready to move on in my life. I've read some of the post on this thread and I am really wondering why everyone is going back and forth. The question was Would you join? Thats all I have to say about that. _______________ Official Strongbad with loyal The Cheat See Here Duct tape is like the force: It has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together |
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Buzz - Student 
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You're right Gitmo isn't fully pertinent to the subject, but guess who brought it up? Ulic did. I wasn't about to let him off the hook on trying to continue the misinformation on such a thing by saying that is some standard and proof of US violating human rights. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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Whatever, it is what it is. We did what we did. Saddam is gone, GOOD. Terrorists are on the run, good. We will win this war, def. But at what cost? How much of our freedoms are we willing to give up? How many soldiers get to die? How long before we walk down the street only to see armed guards on every corner, declaring martial law in the name of our safety. The war on terror? I dont think so. I think the goal here is to get rid of the freedoms that we have that they hate so much. They know they can never kill everyone. They know they can never make us back down. So WHAT is the point. I think they know exactly what they are doing. Would I join the Army? Yes. Would I die for the chance that another country could experience the freedoms we take for granted? Perhaps? But we are dying over there day after day, Iraq is a graveyard of americans who are just trying to let those people have a Democracy and a Constitution. Well I say, Let em have our Constitution, we're not using it anyways. Get our boys out of that land. I am just sick of turning on the news every morning to see more of us dying for other peoples, "Freedom". How much is it worth? Every life that has been lost and more to come? I don't know. I am a young man who has never seen a war, seen a depression, been spit on by hippies. I too take it all for granted but am not stupid enough to watch it as it starts being taken away. I think there is a bigger picture here and the ARMY is just one finger on the hand that is escorting all of us to a place that will be very uncomfortable. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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Raziel Anjelis - Student 
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close topic close topic close topic close topic close topic!! _______________ Proud owner of El Vee For's 200th Comment, and Wicek's 2600th comment  DaMi3N's 400th, Trad Redav's 666th.
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Nero - Student 
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I'm trying to point out that guantanamo bay in this discussion has no place and that you have made clear enough the published happenings are not true. Neither did I say I wanted guantanamo bay to shut down as it is, in my opinion, necessary for intelligence reasons and there has to be a prison for those guys anyways. I am saying though that some stories that we here, if true, are horrible and not US worthy. Quote: Just that they came out and how it will be possible to make sure they will do as less damage as possible. That's from a US perspective. _______________ -Nero Quote: Curious, Smartass, what else? This comment was edited by Nero on Aug 09 2005 07:39pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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So let's see, you don't care that the information spread about gitmo has largely been false and uninformed. You don't care that a large number of people who want the prisoners "treated properly" are asking for far more than the geneva conventions guarrantee. You don't care that they already do get more provided for them than geneva says they deserve. You don't think that the truth and facts about gitmo should be reported and all corrections should get as much or more press than the falsehoods. You also don't think that I'm allowed to on here point out that most of the negative claims about gitmo have turned out to be false for everyone to read. Well tough luck. Let me guess you won't be happy until the US shuts down the prison there right, and says they're sorry. Afterall that will do something to slow all the terrorist acts right, because terrorism didn't exist before gitmo. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Nero - Student
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My whole second paragraph was to point out that war would not inflict any damage upon these individuals, that if they would be taken down by special forces, intelligence or whatever the war would eventualy stop. Then thanks for correcting Vienna into Geneva, I've been reading a, by the economist published, book about the EU and you get thrown to death with citynames. About the sanctuary part, he has a good point and indeed those civilian warriors are in my opinion below human. But still the US and the UN and Europe as itself should realise that by treating those prisoners the way they deserve they will only provoke more actions at Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. It's not about right or wrong here, but about political tactics. Then you were defending your point of guantanamo again, and I'll point out again that I don't care how these stories came out. Just that they came out and how it will be possible to make sure they will do as less damage as possible. _______________ -Nero Quote: Curious, Smartass, what else? This comment was edited by Nero on Aug 09 2005 11:28am. |
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Mic Den Octela - Student 
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There are people who feel very strongly about topics such as this and as soon as anything near the topic is mentioned then people with conflicting views collide and BOOM, we get this.  _______________ -Padawan of Virtue -Brother of Menaxia, *|irael, Krynn Adept, Majno, Ris Win Juljul, DaMi3N, Beowulf, Dash Starlight, Carrock and Yuken Zalak Bartender at Munes bar. Sir Mic of Nippledom! Proudly beating Wang, since '07. (Crackdown) |
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Buzz - Student 
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Quote: Does anyone remember what happened the last time someone put a democracy in the place of a dictatorship? Weimar Germany ring any bells? This is what happened Weimar Germany (democracy) -> Hitler's Germany (one guess) Learning from history has never been our forte. Ignoring facts however is clearly in the forte. The last time Someone put a democracy in place of a dictatorship, you would actually get West Germany, Italy, and Japan. Something else to remember, at the end of WW1 responsibility was placed on the German people. This was something Hitler was able to utilize. In Iraq, the blame hasn't been placed upon the Iraqi's since they are the victims. Blame rests on Saddam and his ilk. Nice attempt to claim that we're going to create another nazi state with our actions there though. That's really stand up of you there. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Aug 09 2005 02:28am. |
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Raziel Anjelis - Student
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Interesting. Whats one of the lines Bail says? Don't make this a flame war. SO what happens? OMFGIBURNJOO!!!! Oh dear. Someone in this thread someone has a different opinion. Looks like you'll have to deal with it. >.> Does anyone remember what happened the last time someone put a democracy in the place of a dictatorship? Weimar Germany ring any bells? This is what happened Weimar Germany (democracy) -> Hitler's Germany (one guess) Learning from history has never been our forte. What interests me is, this is a thread for those who want to post about whether we would join the army and our reasons, and I'm getting every topic under the sun here. I even heard mention of Christians. Bail? Maybe this thread should be closed. _______________ Proud owner of El Vee For's 200th Comment, and Wicek's 2600th comment DaMi3N's 400th, Trad Redav's 666th.
This comment was edited by Raziel Anjelis on Aug 09 2005 01:51am. |
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Buzz - Student
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I don't know what your talking about oil issues, gas prices are higher in the US. If it were all about oil we would have been like the French government and been asking for sanctions to be lifted and leave saddam in power and just buy the oil from him. Your second full paragraph was pretty much gibberish from what I can tell of it and made little actual sense. When those we fight star following the geneva conventions then you would have a leg to stand on. As it stands now, those scum down in gitmo didn't follow the geneva convention and thus we are not bound to treat them under that standard. There are those also asking for far more for them than the geneva conventions allow (legal counsel for the detainees.) I'll try my best to point this out. What is going on at Gitmo isn't the problem. What people, who have been to gitmo, are saying isn't the problem. Its people who haven't been there believing what is going on there is wrong and refusing to listen to the facts about it. Its perpetuating the misinformation about it. They eat better than I do down there. And the respect we are showing them towards their religion would probably have the ACLU crying about separation of church and state if it were christians. See you talk about geneva (you thought it was vienna) but the group that actually would fall under this category being the Iraqi army was treated properly when they were captured during major combat operations. If you can find evidence that proves otherwise go ahead and prove me wrong. And for the final point, if you want to talk about violating geneva convention rules, you're looking at the wrong side again. I'll give you a link to read at the bottom here, that I really don't want to see you talking about who's breaking the geneva convention until you've read it. The way Ulic has positioned himself is on the side of those anti-american terrorist sympathizers who believe that you can equate the atrocities committed by the extremist groups with actions of the US military. And by doing this are able to claim that the US has no authority when talking about human rights violations committed by the other side. You know, since bright lights, loud music, and having a female interogator in a tight t-shirt are equal to Chopping off someone's head. Now for the link. This is something I believe everyone who looks here should read. It is the idea of Sanctuary and who breaks it and why to think that what the US military is doing is wrong and the cause of acts by the extremists is completely backwards. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Nero - Student 
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Well as we have seen so far the things that have been done trough war have resulted into nothing improving the situation of Europe or the US, apart from some oil issues I'm not getting into. Then look at the situation in Ireland, the British government did not give in and still the situation is settled. Now let's think and use our common sense, this terrorism isn't and neither is this war about religion, there are a few guys on top at the arabic side who have provit in this economicly, socially, or mentally. It are the guys that blast themselves that do this in the name of Allah, but they don't start blowing themselves up on their own. They have a Imam which influences them and probably get's a nice pile of cash from higher up. This looks to me a lot like "the war on terrorism" which wasn't entirely about terrorism in a source-seeking view. (Ofcourse the war on terrorism was something far different from the guys blowing themselves up on the streets but still) And again you're making excuses of something noone wants to hear excuses about; the reason why guantanamo is sending a bad message. Also I really think both the US and Europe should refrain from the methodes banned by Vienna. We ought to be above that, way above that. Lastely Ulic is a person I know in real life, he's one of the cleverest persons I know off. He is somebody who would be on my not-to-call-idiots-list and that's a short list. The way he positioned himself in this discussion is more interesting than offencefull and you guys should rather read his words carefully and understanding the opinion of many not Americans than attacking him personally. _______________ -Nero Quote: Curious, Smartass, what else? This comment was edited by Nero on Aug 08 2005 08:58pm. |
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Jeramia Adept - Student 
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too much pain, too much. _______________ The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is. Padawan Brother to Darth Sirius |
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Buzz - Student
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It may be incompatible with the principle of terrorism, it is not incompatible with dealing with those groups that utilize terrorism. The military can be used to stop the countries that support terrorists, they can also be used to stop the smuggling of terrorists and weapons (The Coast Guard is military afterall). The military can be sent into countries to shut down the terrorist training camps. Nero if only communication works, then you go tell them that they don't get to have Spain back, Israel is staying where it is, we're not converting to Islam, we're going to allow women to wear clothing that shows more than their eyes, because that is what they want. The reason Gitmo sends an anti-American message around the world is because they already have an anti-American view and will believe anything negative reported. The facts tell the opposite of what these people think. But they don't care about the facts. They want the big scandal that will bring down the administration and so they run with a story without full confirmation that results in muslim clerics using it to fuel the fires and cause 16 people to die. The only problem that has to be dealt with is for people who don't know jack squat to stop using it as a way to say "look how bad america is" all while doing their best to ignore that the other side has a common practice of decapitation. As for Ulic, he made an idiotic statement and got called what he was for making it. This isn't in game where he's being insulted for his game playing. This is a real world topic where he actually believes that the US is a horrible nation that is one of the worst human rights violators. That's a view that is several levels below idiotic. But hey if you believe he actually deserves some level of respect for his views you might want to try telling everyone that holocaust deniers also deserve respect for their views. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Jeramia Adept - Student
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personally i dont know how to deal with terrorism, violence creates more violence, sending an army to fight terrorism is like sending a rotten egg to gradius its going to make matters worse than they already are. i know perfectly that peace wouldnt resolve a thing, still i dont know, i wish i had the answers  _______________ The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is. Padawan Brother to Darth Sirius |
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Nero - Student
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In my opinion the principle of an army we are talking about is completely useless against the principle of terrorism. This shown by the recent thing happening in London, and before that Madrid. Allthough the entire world had made all the preperations possible to counter these attacks clearly they were not prevented. I honostly think that against terrorism, though it sounds cliché, only communication works. Let's take the IRA for an example, the britain forces with all their might were not capable of stopping them, while england itself would be capable of flattening half of europe on it's own. The only way things got to a halt was because a proper leader within the organisation got up and ceased the fire. I really think that the only way of stopping the muslim terrorism we are talking about is by improving the communication with those countries, both the US and the UN really need to work on that. For while the UN are way to bureaucratic and I despise them for that, the US ,in my opinion, is using to much force with too little thinking. Furtherwise I'd like to point out that wether it's true or not, Guantanamo bay really sends an extremely anti-american message around the globe, again wether the stories are true or not really does not matter. The fact is that it is a problem that has to be dealt with. Last I'd like to say I find the way Ulic was treated here pathatic and wether his views to you are anti american or whatever, this is not a way to treat someone in a mature and morale discussion like this one. I'd like to point out aswell that a lot of countries are picked on occasionaly... Edit:// If I would be capable of doing anything against terrorism I would do so, just not my military means, as I explained above. _______________ -Nero Quote: Curious, Smartass, what else? This comment was edited by Nero on Aug 07 2005 10:07am. |
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Mic Den Octela - Student
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I agree with Jai. Anyway.. My own opinion is that I would join the army if I was a lil older. I still feel I should use what little I have left of my childhood before I join. Not only that but I suppose joining the army does take alot of thinking, and especially at a time of war. Sure you can go to war and fight for your country and the peace of others. But what good are you to the people who are left behind if you were to die. Its a difficult choice that alot of people make everyday. Do you join and fight for your beliefs, your people and the good of others, or do you stay behind and help those you can here. I suppose thats another problem with terrorism. No matter whether you join the army or not your still involved and you still play a part. _______________ -Padawan of Virtue -Brother of Menaxia, *|irael, Krynn Adept, Majno, Ris Win Juljul, DaMi3N, Beowulf, Dash Starlight, Carrock and Yuken Zalak Bartender at Munes bar. Sir Mic of Nippledom! Proudly beating Wang, since '07. (Crackdown) |
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Jaiko D'Kana - Student 
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Ok guys can i please request that you let this simmer down now. It isnt constructive and its just going to upset people. No need to aruge, accept you have a difference in oppinion and that others may disagree. Thanks guys -JaikoD'kana- _______________ The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind. William James (1842 - 1910) |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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Quote: And Gil, no no no, you misunderstood me. I want you to say "thank you", because you see if I wasn't such a pompous powertripping sod you would not be here. You wouldn't be able to post comments and participate. You wouldn't be able to whine about me calling someone on their idiotic statement and saying that I'm making a personal attack. Yeah, I'm the kettle, and guess what, you're the pot and we're both black! You made a personal attack at me, go ahead I don't care, but you're complaining about a personal attack I made. And it was an attack on a subject I am incredibly passionate about and do my best to keep up on what is going on with it. Something that to call someone, who is throwing out the opposite side, an idiot is because I've cooled down after 10 minutes of wanting to call them every name in the book and some that aren't there. So again, you're welcome. You're welcome that I didn't disable your account. You're welcome that after you broke a rule, that you yourself are pointing out, by insulting me that I didn't ban you. You know since I'm on this powertrip I should be banning every person I don't get along with right. Also, if I were on a powertrip I'd leave this comment and close the thread with the claim of it getting too much off topic. So following your logic, I insult someone, therefore cant moan at someone for breaking the same rule. You insult someone, therefore you cant moan at anyone for breaking the same rule? I should say thank you you didnt call ulic worse names? Maybe you should say thank you I didnt call you worse names before. See how silly that is? You misunderstand what I meant back then by a powertrip. I didt mean that you are going around banning everyone for minor infringements. I mean that you allow yourself to break the basic rules of respect, that this place is supposed to be founded on, on a regular basis. More so than many that get disciplined for it, despite the fact that the council are the ones supposed to be looked up to, to set a good example to the rest of us. In this very thread we have an example of someone who has also acted disrespectfully towards ulic. If you behave in a disrespectful way, when in a position of authority, no matter how much you huff and puff about it and tell them not to, people will eventually follow your lead. Whether you like it or not, it is your responsibility to set a good example here. And therefore I think its your responsibility to apologise for breaking your own rules (which you have admitted to) and to Ulic. Either that or make the official announcement that the rule is now 'no personal attacks, unless it is because someone disagrees with you about "a subject you are incredibly passionate about and do your best to keep up on what is going on with it" '. I wont hold my breath though. And maybe if I should say 'thank you' to you for not banning me, for doing something you just publicly admitted doing yourself, you should say 'thank you' to the other JAC's for not banning you. Sound silly? Of course. but the reason it does sums the situation up perfectly. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life This comment was edited by Gil-Galad on Aug 04 2005 01:23am. |
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Buzz - Student
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Yeah, I stopped reading the CIA atrocities right after the 1953 line about the ousting of the guy in Iran in order to reinstate the Shah to power. And how dare the evil monarch, the Shah institute democratic reforms and giving women the right to vote in 1963. Link 1 Additionally more info about that link can be found here probably with more of the claims on that page A key point there: After being fired, Mossadeq took control of Iran's elected parliament and ordered Shah Reza Pahlavi, Iran's constitutional monarch, to re-appoint him as Prime Minister, to which the Shah obliged. Not to say that the CIA hasn't done questionable things, usually in the effort to stop communism which has a history of direct wrongs and well, just like in government it a lot times comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils. Its regrettable if the lesser evil is still really bad though. The Gitmo detainee, accusations do not make fact. There are talks of using hot and cold variations in interrogations. That's not torture though. Its discomfort certainly, but loud noise, bright lights, heat and cold? Go ask some POW's from Vietnam what torture is. This is not torture. If it is torture, then people should want family members tried for war crimes since music is always too loud or its always too hot or cold for some people. As for education and moral fiber, I'll say again that you have the leadership of those countries/people working against you. In a lot of the countries you need the leadership to change by one way or another. In ideology or the people there. And when I talk infrastructure, I'm talking schools, hospitals, the police forces. And also with education, go ask the little girls in afghanistan if they like being able to attend school and get an education, since they weren't allowed to before. Ulic I don't have a problem with you disagreeing. I have a problem with you taking a jab at the military and then holding up the UN as the highest nobility around. Then after the bark is removed to show the rotting wood underneath you take to pointing out some occurences by the US again, that if you compare the events, with all the facts available, are nowhere near as atrocious. But I know you didn't want facts. I still have this comment ending line from you "Of course, the US aren't exactly a guardian of human rights." That shows you believe all the evil awful things said about the US, and don't take the time to look at whether those claims were exaggerated or downright false. You don't want to be called an idiot, make sure you have the information right before you make the claim. You don't want to be called a terrorist sympathizer, don't use the talking points that they always revert to. And Gil, no no no, you misunderstood me. I want you to say "thank you", because you see if I wasn't such a pompous powertripping sod you would not be here. You wouldn't be able to post comments and participate. You wouldn't be able to whine about me calling someone on their idiotic statement and saying that I'm making a personal attack. Yeah, I'm the kettle, and guess what, you're the pot and we're both black! You made a personal attack at me, go ahead I don't care, but you're complaining about a personal attack I made. And it was an attack on a subject I am incredibly passionate about and do my best to keep up on what is going on with it. Something that to call someone, who is throwing out the opposite side, an idiot is because I've cooled down after 10 minutes of wanting to call them every name in the book and some that aren't there. So again, you're welcome. You're welcome that I didn't disable your account. You're welcome that after you broke a rule, that you yourself are pointing out, by insulting me that I didn't ban you. You know since I'm on this powertrip I should be banning every person I don't get along with right. Also, if I were on a powertrip I'd leave this comment and close the thread with the claim of it getting too much off topic. Instead I'll take the tactic others like to throw after they get their last jab in to the otherside. Let's get this thread back on topic I've considered the military path but don't think its for me. Besides I got my degree in chemical engineering, they'd want me working on building a better bomb instead of out there shooting at the enemy. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Aug 03 2005 11:23pm. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student
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bummer. BTW, my "Attack" on Ulic is the result of YEARS of his anti american attitutde. I hated it then and I hate it now. And for him to be so snide about it is what pisses me off, like he is patronizing us "poor americans". Save it. I am not just gonna stand here and let you people make accusations about my country without me saying something. Funny you would even expect that. What if i went off on denmark, i am sure some ppl would have something to say. Dont try and sell me a hooker with a heart of gold man. It don't fly. Oh and btw, Buzz is an American, Then a JAC. If he broke a rule based on the fact that he is defending our country while getting a little offensive towards those who have TRASH to talk, then I support him. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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