| Would you join the Army? | |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student  |
I don't want to see any flaming. if this turns into a flamewar, I'll ask one of the JAC's pronto to close it down In the light of the recent threats and attacks done by Al-Quaeda-Europa I want to ask you the following thing. If your country is attacked, and your country decides to join in on the War Against Terrorism, but no draft is executed, will you join the army? Yay or nay, why? Or the second option: After a couple of countries in the European Union have been attacked, the EU decides to fight Terrorism all over the globe. Again, no draft. Will you join the army? Yay or nay, why? It was only this evening, in the lights of threats executed against Belgium, the capital of the European Union, that I had the same conversation with my girlfriend. I would join. I would feel it is my absolute duty to do so. Why? Because I feel it is necessary to protect other people's freedom. The day you lose faith in society, is the day you lose it. If I have to spend the remainder of my life fighting some terrorist or tiran, so that other people have the freedom of falling in love, getting married and raising thier own kids, then so help me God, I will gladly give my life for it. All I ask is that when it is my time and I get hurt, is that I die for a cause that I completely support, for something I believe in. I want the world to look back at all the deaths and be grateful. Not my death in particular, but all deaths, of all those who died to protect that which we hold dear, what we hold self-evident. When I have died, I want to be able to say to myself "I died for a reason!" That's all I ask. What about you? Again, no flaming. If someone decides something not to your liking, please, please please show respect for this choice and leave it be. _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This post was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Jul 22 2005 10:57am. |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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Quote: I'm leaving the JA and was wondering if you could do me a favour and disable my account. I havent played on the servers in a long while but I would appreciate it if you made it final. Thanks a lot So get on with it already. -DM- I changed my mind, as Buzz predicted heh  Few friends that hang around here that I couldnt leave  If you want me to leave report me for being rude to you and telling you to leave. And making a fairly personal attack on someone because of their political alignment. Oh wait, that was you.Anyway, this isnt 'the gil thread'. This is the 'lets make harsh attacks on ulic's character for disagreeing because a JAC has done the same so we can get away with it' thread. Wasnt it? _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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Quote: I'm leaving the JA and was wondering if you could do me a favour and disable my account. I havent played on the servers in a long while but I would appreciate it if you made it final. Thanks a lot So get on with it already. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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Quote: Second; I just wanted to say you're welcome. Afterall, if I weren't such a pompous-power tripping sod, you wouldn't be around to post. I'm sorry, you want me to take that back? Just after seeing you break your own rules then making bs excuses for it? I think perhaps you should re-write the rule so that instead of saying 'no amount of personal attacks' it says 'no personal attacks, except for when someone disagrees with buzz'. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Ulic |retired| - Student 
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Bail, I deeply regret that this topic, despite your warning has turned into a flame war and assure you it was never my meaning. I refuse to continue trying to discuss things in a polite and serious manner, as I've always done, because this manner is met with an appaling hatred that really scared me. I am treated outrageously and I think the accusations thrown at me are ridiculous. Simply because I disagree on certain matters with certain people I am called a terrorist sympathiser, idiot and a liar. I never attacked anyone personally, I never intended to insult anyone, I wish everyone the very best yet I feel personally attacked by people who always tried and should try to make this community a pleasant one for everyone. I know further arguing or expecting apologies is useless. The very best to everyone. _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Grycen - Student 
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Quote: I didn't say anything about educating them FIRST. You can do both things at the time, hell it's the most effective way to do it, but so far, the only thiing the world's being doing is killing them, thus prolonging their immortality. You're a man of action Buzz, I respect that, I would rather join up with a system that involves action and not a long beaurocratic dispute. I've been to Model UNs here in the DR, and even there when it's just a simulation it ends up with long pointless arguments, the cons of democracy. The three times I've been in the MUN it's been UNSC, representing Germany, Russia and Algeria, and when emergency sessions come up it takes a ridiculous amount of time. In theory, I would stand by the UN, but in practice quick action is alot more effective. However your proposed solution is the same solution we've been trying on and on, a short term one, I suggest a short+long term solution, not just nuking the Middle East. Actually I consider removing a depotic tyrant who tortures and kills the people he rules, and then working to rebuild the infrastructure of that country to be better than it was, allowing the people to vote and choose their leadership for themselves where before choosing "No for Saddam" would get you in jail. Along with this we're encouraging democratic reforms in many other middle eastern countries. You see these things do have a long term view to them but you can't accomplish the long term without successes on the short term. Your thought of long term is something you won't see for another 10 years at the earliest. 20 years would be an even better judge of the long term successes. I'm talking about education, moral fiber, the type of stuff that 1st world countries have and 3rd world countries (like mine) lack. Don't you see? It's the only thing you always overlook, and by you I mean invaders who want to fix things for the good of others. With no way of telling what's right and what's wrong, there is no hope. I know, my country is plagued with politicians who become millionaires the moment they become senators. _______________ Owner of Pink Floyd's 480th comment, Darth Sirius's 250th comment, my paddy bro Stig's 225th comment, BDKawika's 200th comment and Jedifire's 100th comment. |
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Grycen - Student 
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Quote: Well, lets see what the EU press has to say about it... EU TRASH Well, thats suprising. Geez, hey ulic, do you work for these folks? Tell ya what man, why dont you make sure you know what your talking about before you open your mouth. You might feel more at home here: CAGED PRISONERS.com I am sure they would love to hear your bs there, prob even be in sympathy with you. Your not finding it here man. Your anti-american attitude that you have ALWAYS had ever since I have been here is not appreciated and if you want to post some anti-amercian trash about a subject that your only going to get one view on from some EU press, then keep it to yourself. Otherwise, if you feel that strongly about it, then research it yourself and see that we treat those prisoners correctly and we go above and beyond the Geneova Convention to respect there religion and traditions. Quote: I thoroughly regret to say that I'm afraid that the reputation of the United States is even worse than that of the United Nations. Abu Graib and Guantanamo Bay have made a great impact. Thoroughly regret... right, who are you kidding, you love every minute of it. -DM-  Oh, get off it! You have alot to be proud of but you've also got your hands dirtier than any other nation in the world. Link 1 But hey, everybody knows the CIA acts for itself and you can't blame the US government for that. Link 2 No torture in Gitmo? Not what the Swedes are yapping! Link 3 A little something on how we become that same evil we swore to destroy, quoting the good ol' Obi. And here's a little something that will hopefully help you STOP bashing on Ulic, because the only thing (that you believe) he's done wrong is not standiing for his country but for the opinion of the REST of the world. Quote: "Of course the people don't want war, but after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders -- that is easy. All you need to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger." Note that this post does not change my position on liking action over deliberation I just also disagree that you choose to unfairly bash on Ulic for going for peace instead of war in the 21st century, definetely the most dangerous to be at war in so far. Unti we can build Death Stars. Then THAT would be scary.  _______________ Owner of Pink Floyd's 480th comment, Darth Sirius's 250th comment, my paddy bro Stig's 225th comment, BDKawika's 200th comment and Jedifire's 100th comment. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Quote: I didn't say anything about educating them FIRST. You can do both things at the time, hell it's the most effective way to do it, but so far, the only thiing the world's being doing is killing them, thus prolonging their immortality. You're a man of action Buzz, I respect that, I would rather join up with a system that involves action and not a long beaurocratic dispute. I've been to Model UNs here in the DR, and even there when it's just a simulation it ends up with long pointless arguments, the cons of democracy. The three times I've been in the MUN it's been UNSC, representing Germany, Russia and Algeria, and when emergency sessions come up it takes a ridiculous amount of time. In theory, I would stand by the UN, but in practice quick action is alot more effective. However your proposed solution is the same solution we've been trying on and on, a short term one, I suggest a short+long term solution, not just nuking the Middle East. Actually I consider removing a depotic tyrant who tortures and kills the people he rules, and then working to rebuild the infrastructure of that country to be better than it was, allowing the people to vote and choose their leadership for themselves where before choosing "No for Saddam" would get you in jail. Along with this we're encouraging democratic reforms in many other middle eastern countries. You see these things do have a long term view to them but you can't accomplish the long term without successes on the short term. Your thought of long term is something you won't see for another 10 years at the earliest. 20 years would be an even better judge of the long term successes. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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Quote: As for you Gil, first: I'm not about to let him get off the hook spouting off with a flame about the U.S. military in it actions when if you look at all the accusations of the soldiers definitely crossing the line, and if all of those were true, you wouldn't even have 0.1% of the military represented by those accused. And I'm directing it at him, because he thinks we're condoning the acts. You see the UN has tried to cover up much of their workers indiscresions, Isn't that biased as you're from America, like we're from the EU ? We don't know everything going on over there, and information might get mangled, true, but same over there I think. Don't go off saying the EU sucks at everything. We have our negative points I agree heartfully, but so does the US. but Gil was right, nonetheless about not following your own rules. I know, Ulic started, but it's better off solving this without the insults. And here I am ranting on ... _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This comment was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Aug 03 2005 10:06pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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Sorry Bail, but he did bring up the typical sympathetic to the terrorists, let's call minor infractions being equal to rape and beheadings, and well that's just something that the word "idiot" is too nice for. But it is still idiotic and about the only way I can politely convey the shear outrage anyone with enough information and a brain should feel towards people who gleefully use that to try and make us equal to islamic extremists. As for you Gil, first: I'm not about to let him get off the hook spouting off with a flame about the U.S. military in it actions when if you look at all the accusations of the soldiers definitely crossing the line, and if all of those were true, you wouldn't even have 0.1% of the military represented by those accused. And I'm directing it at him, because he thinks we're condoning the acts. You see the UN has tried to cover up much of their workers indiscresions, whereas the US investigates theirs, and prosecutes them when they are found to be liable in the act. Second; I just wanted to say you're welcome. Afterall, if I weren't such a pompous-power tripping sod, you wouldn't be around to post. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Grycen - Student
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Quote: They've also dropped the War on Terror phrase. Its not the "Global struggle against Extremism." Very noble goals there Grycen. You go work on Iran with those ideas of educating them first while their mullahs are still in power controlling everything. Education is very good and in conjunction with action can work. And you're right, killing the terrorists in and of itself won't end it. But a way to drastically reduce it in the long run is to wipeout the organizations leadership, stop any before they reach their objective, destroy the training camps, and those that train them, and one of the big ones; stop the governments that are state-sponsors of terrorists. Stopping the hate is good and all that, but that hate is about 1400 years old, and their mindset is around 500 years behind the western world. That's a lot of work ahead of you, and you've got to work against a lot of their leadership who they are going to trust a lot more than you telling them the exact opposite thing. I didn't say anything about educating them FIRST. You can do both things at the time, hell it's the most effective way to do it, but so far, the only thiing the world's being doing is killing them, thus prolonging their immortality. You're a man of action Buzz, I respect that, I would rather join up with a system that involves action and not a long beaurocratic dispute. I've been to Model UNs here in the DR, and even there when it's just a simulation it ends up with long pointless arguments, the cons of democracy. The three times I've been in the MUN it's been UNSC, representing Germany, Russia and Algeria, and when emergency sessions come up it takes a ridiculous amount of time. In theory, I would stand by the UN, but in practice quick action is alot more effective. However your proposed solution is the same solution we've been trying on and on, a short term one, I suggest a short+long term solution, not just nuking the Middle East. _______________ Owner of Pink Floyd's 480th comment, Darth Sirius's 250th comment, my paddy bro Stig's 225th comment, BDKawika's 200th comment and Jedifire's 100th comment. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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Jesus christ guys get off ulic's back. He said that guantanamo has affected the worlds perception of the US. Which is true, and you would admit yourselves. Did he say that any bad treatment had happened? No. So what exactly are you having a go at him for? Calling him an idiot for? Tell him he is speaking bs for? _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life This comment was edited by Gil-Galad on Aug 03 2005 09:52pm. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student
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Well, lets see what the EU press has to say about it... EU TRASH Well, thats suprising. Geez, hey ulic, do you work for these folks? Tell ya what man, why dont you make sure you know what your talking about before you open your mouth. You might feel more at home here: CAGED PRISONERS.com I am sure they would love to hear your bs there, prob even be in sympathy with you. Your not finding it here man. Your anti-american attitude that you have ALWAYS had ever since I have been here is not appreciated and if you want to post some anti-amercian trash about a subject that your only going to get one view on from some EU press, then keep it to yourself. Otherwise, if you feel that strongly about it, then research it yourself and see that we treat those prisoners correctly and we go above and beyond the Geneova Convention to respect there religion and traditions. Quote: I thoroughly regret to say that I'm afraid that the reputation of the United States is even worse than that of the United Nations. Abu Graib and Guantanamo Bay have made a great impact. Thoroughly regret... right, who are you kidding, you love every minute of it. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. This comment was edited by DaRtH-MoBiLiTy on Aug 03 2005 09:37pm. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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Quote:
Quote: I thoroughly regret to say that I'm afraid that the reputation of the United States is even worse than that of the United Nations. Abu Graib and Guantanamo Bay have made a great impact. Congratulations you're an idiot... Quote: I don't want to see any flaming. if this turns into a flamewar, I'll ask one of the JAC's pronto to close it down Please don't  I know you're having your differences, but please don't go around name-calling, please? I can understand you are probably offended with the Guantanamo comment (I can't say who's right or wrong, I only know it's a prison) but please talk it in stead of resorting to this. _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This comment was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Aug 03 2005 09:24pm. |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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Quite ironic, in the same post you accuse the UN of not following its own rules: Quote: Congratulations you're an idiot. Go find out the truth about Guantanamo Bay. Quote: No amount of personal attacks or character assasination (also known as flaming) is tolerated. If you can't be polite then be quiet. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: Frustrated as I am, among many people including you, I made the point that if we don't abide by the rules of the UN, we have no right to tell other nations to do so. I think the US, understandable though the invasion of Iraq was in many ways, greatly undermined the UN. Again, what the UN was doing was that they weren't following their own rules. They were saying "don't cross this line in the sand here" and Iraq crossed it, so they kept drawing lines Iraq crossed and on the last one they said "don't cross this line, we really mean it and it will result in consequences" Iraq crossed it, and the UN wanted to draw another line. They weren't following their own rules, and you had countries like France saying "well let's just stop drawing lines altogether." Not like France was playing by the rules anyways. Iraq had French weaponry that was Post-1992 era. Quote: I thoroughly regret to say that I'm afraid that the reputation of the United States is even worse than that of the United Nations. Abu Graib and Guantanamo Bay have made a great impact. Congratulations you're an idiot. Go find out the truth about Guantanamo Bay. They're treated incredibly well down there. And if any person is accused of being abusive to the prisoners they are immediately pulled off duty and the matter is investigated. And Abu Graib? You mean where the people who committed the "crimes" have been or are being tried. I say "crimes" because from what is known those acts are level one fraternity initiations. Take your choice, having a pair of panties put on your head, or having your head CHOPPED OFF! And again, I'd rather have them thinking that if captured by me I might put a pair of panties on their head instead of MOLESTING AN INNOCENT CHILD. Ulic repeat after me because I know its in your head: "Everything America does is evil and anything done against them is justified." They've also dropped the War on Terror phrase. Its not the "Global struggle against Extremism." Very noble goals there Grycen. You go work on Iran with those ideas of educating them first while their mullahs are still in power controlling everything. Education is very good and in conjunction with action can work. And you're right, killing the terrorists in and of itself won't end it. But a way to drastically reduce it in the long run is to wipeout the organizations leadership, stop any before they reach their objective, destroy the training camps, and those that train them, and one of the big ones; stop the governments that are state-sponsors of terrorists. Stopping the hate is good and all that, but that hate is about 1400 years old, and their mindset is around 500 years behind the western world. That's a lot of work ahead of you, and you've got to work against a lot of their leadership who they are going to trust a lot more than you telling them the exact opposite thing. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Aug 03 2005 08:55pm. |
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Ulic |retired| - Student
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Although having proclaimed it your favourite line you seem to have misread my words. Please read it again and find that I completely agree with you and that the ineffectiveness of the UN frustrates me immensely. Frustrated as I am, among many people including you, I made the point that if we don't abide by the rules of the UN, we have no right to tell other nations to do so. I think the US, understandable though the invasion of Iraq was in many ways, greatly undermined the UN. Quote: Areas that are predominantly muslim and actually really don't like the US all that much. But we still sent aid and it was almost immediate. I congratulate the US on being prepared to help people in need, even though they were predominantly Muslim. Quote: If I joined the army I wouldn't want to be associated with a UN taskforce. I don't want little kids running away afraid I might violate them. I thoroughly regret to say that I'm afraid that the reputation of the United States is even worse than that of the United Nations. Abu Graib and Guantanamo Bay have made a great impact. _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Grycen - Student
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Quote: \agrees with grycen \waits for someone to come in with 'omgwtflolol they dont want sanitary living conditions doctors and education they'll still just want to blow us up cos they are EVIL and we are GOOD lets just kill them it takes less time where did i put my NRA membership card' ROFL _______________ Owner of Pink Floyd's 480th comment, Darth Sirius's 250th comment, my paddy bro Stig's 225th comment, BDKawika's 200th comment and Jedifire's 100th comment. |
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Gil-Galad - Student
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\agrees with grycen \waits for someone to come in with 'omgwtflolol they dont want sanitary living conditions doctors and education they'll still just want to blow us up cos they are EVIL and we are GOOD lets just kill them it takes less time where did i put my NRA membership card' _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Ulic |retired| - Student 
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You're absolutely right. Improving living standards and education is the key. Let them make something to be proud of. _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Grycen - Student
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Meh, I just think too much too fast. Hmm... cheese. _______________ Owner of Pink Floyd's 480th comment, Darth Sirius's 250th comment, my paddy bro Stig's 225th comment, BDKawika's 200th comment and Jedifire's 100th comment. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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Quote: The problem, as I see it, about the "War against Terrorism" is that it can not be won. You see, terrorists are more than willing to give their lives for their cause. And killing them does no actual good, as they become martyrs, invincible entities that live a greater life once dead and have more followers once put in the grave. You can't just fight terrorism with guns and try to kill them all, mainly because it's hard enough to find them all and then, they would probably be getting newer, younger recruits willing to join because their parents, brothers, uncles or whoever got killed by the enemy. This is where I believe the pen is mightier than the sword. :p Only by educating the Middle Eastern countries and erradicating the hate towards western civilization can we destroy terrorists completely. But then, there have always been terrorists, just that now the World is a bit more concious about them and the threat they pose because of modern warfare. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight them, just that fighting them ain't enough. /agree Thank you, you put better words to these thoughts than I ever could |
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Grycen - Student
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The problem, as I see it, about the "War against Terrorism" is that it can not be won. You see, terrorists are more than willing to give their lives for their cause. And killing them does no actual good, as they become martyrs, invincible entities that live a greater life once dead and have more followers once put in the grave. You can't just fight terrorism with guns and try to kill them all, mainly because it's hard enough to find them all and then, they would probably be getting newer, younger recruits willing to join because their parents, brothers, uncles or whoever got killed by the enemy. This is where I believe the pen is mightier than the sword. :p Only by educating the Middle Eastern countries and erradicating the hate towards western civilization can we destroy terrorists completely. But then, there have always been terrorists, just that now the World is a bit more concious about them and the threat they pose because of modern warfare. I'm not saying we shouldn't fight them, just that fighting them ain't enough. _______________ Owner of Pink Floyd's 480th comment, Darth Sirius's 250th comment, my paddy bro Stig's 225th comment, BDKawika's 200th comment and Jedifire's 100th comment. |
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Ecks - Student 
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Quote: Whereas protecting your entire country from evil hehe, but you do have a point about your other...points How do I know that I am fighting evil when I am joining the army? If I was in Nazi Germany, would you call joining that army an act of good? _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." This comment was edited by Ecks on Aug 02 2005 12:20am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Right talking always works first and no matter what doesn't it. Just ask Chamberlain. Where are the WMD's now? I don't know. Do you? Who's supposed to know? Oh yeah they were supposed to be destroyed under observation of the UN and Saddam was supposed to provide evidence of their destruction. We had a list of what he had. He didn't let the inspectors see it all destroyed, and he didn't provide proof of all of its destruction. So that means they are still hidden somewhere, he transported them to another country, or he never had those missing ones in the first place. And guess what by doing all of that Saddam was ignoring the UN. And since the UN wasn't going to act on it, they also were ignoring themselves. The only ones not ignoring the UN were the US and countries supporting it, because they followed through with what would happen if Iraq didn't live up to the resolutions the UN passed against them. You know what undermines the UN? The fact that their peace keepers are being arrested and accused of raping little girls in African countries they're supposed to be helping and the coverups by the UN to hide that. And the UN not responding immediately to tragedies like the genocides in Rwanda and the Sudan. Try not responding at all. See the UN is bound by their rules that if they declare a genocide they are required to help and intervene. They didn't do it in Rwanda and a whole lot of people died. They haven't done it in the Sudan either. And now its time for my favorite line. Quote: although the UN should be able to have a taskforce, hospitals, and supplies at any location in the world within 48 hours, it takes months. It should change, reforms should be made to quicken the process, but untill it changes, we must cope with it because we need to follow our own rules. You mean the taskforce able to respond to the threat like oh a tsunami in the indian ocean. Where the first thing President Bush did was release a carrier group to provide aid and logistical support to the areas affected. Areas that are predominantly muslim and actually really don't like the US all that much. But we still sent aid and it was almost immediate. While the UN wanted to conduct an investigation to get an idea of what neede to be done, while the US navy was doing what needed to be done. If I joined the army I wouldn't want to be associated with a UN taskforce. I don't want little kids running away afraid I might violate them. As for the military, those evil people that kill...oh and save countless lives by giving aid while the UN talks I've got their slogan for them: Join the military. You'll save more lives than you'll ever take. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Thomasooo - Student 
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I'd join the army "because basically, it's like FPS, only better graphics! But what if I get lag out there? I'm dead! I've even heard there are no respawn points in RL!" Goodness, I LOVE Pure Pwnage! In all seriousness: I think I'd join, but if it was possible, I would have liked to help my country in another way than grabbing a rifle and shooting other human beings. _______________ In the navy and LOVING it!
Recipient of comment no. 1000 and heart-warming words from Ataris!
This comment was edited by Thomasooo on Aug 01 2005 11:00pm. |
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