| Who is the Best Saberist in History ? | |
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Ian Jandos - Student  |
I suppose there is not a clear cut answer to this. However, I'd like to see what opinions are out there. Obi-Wan and Anakin seemed to be an equal match, perhaps Anakin on flat ground might be better...but considering he lost his cool, perhaps that would happen in a different scenario as well. Dooku, a viable contender, but if Anakin could beat him, then he obviously doesn't rank at the top. Additionally, Palpatine, who diced several Jedi quickly could not dispatch Windu, even with force aiding him. Yoda, who held his own with Palpatine and Dooku did not demonstrate onscreen at least, the ability to land any blows. Whereas Windu was able to win his duel w/Palpatine. Then there are wild cards such as Darth Maul, Qui-Gon, and Luke Skywalker. Maul obviously was very talented, but did not prove he could overpower a youthful Obi-Wan with his saber alone. I wouldn't necessarily give Obi-Wan the advantage, but that brings up enough doubt for me to rank Maul out of contention. Qui-Gon-Jinn, obviously since he died, that kind of takes him down a notch as well. Luke, I would consider to be in the same boat as his father, with the exception that his lack of formal training would probably give him less rank. Sure he bested his father, but that victory came over a simply less capable saberist due to Vader's reliance of robotic limbs. Luke's "win" only came through rage more than say his control. Having said all of that, my vote is for Mace Windu. A solid, polished saberist, who should have been the one that ended the Sith. -Ian _______________ Member #7625 | Since 7.6.04 The Archives This post was edited by Ian Jandos on Jul 22 2005 10:13pm. |
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Who is the Best Saberist in History?
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Ecks - Student 
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To Koon: I'm not saying martial arts isn't good. I, like you, know it's benefits. But I know too many people who think that it will save them in every situation. Sometimes, you just to have to let loose of your control and let your hands go free. To Vasper: Yes, I would love to see that too. Again, like I said, the absolute BEST martial artists are extremely dangerous, but there are maybe 10 of them in the world. One of these days, I'm gonna get my ass over to your gym and spar with ya   _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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This thread is getting a bit off topic but I'll finish what I was going to say anywho I never said I was the only one who knew Martial Arts. Merely that I was among them. To be honest with you, when I get into a fight, which is more than I like,(guess when some guys see someone bigger than them they feel compelled to challenge.)....I use mainly street fighting. Down, dirty and raw. However, my mind is always on the basics of the martial arts i've learned. It never happens like it does in the moves. No fixed scenes, dressed up all nice. What I wanna see is a Bad A$$ STREET FIGHTING MARTIAL ARTIST. _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON  .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
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Plo Koon - Student 
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Well Ecks I'm not one of the best in the world of martial arts nor do I have superhuman amounts of skill but I do know one thing. I'm better off now in a fight with martial arts then without, because I'm more fit, I have a heck of alot more endurance, I'm more balanced, and I'm a heck of alot faster. Plus I have gained more control of my mind & body, so yes I do think it does help. _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
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Ecks - Student 
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Heh heh... are you sure Muay Thai warriors aren't thugs The thing with martial arts though is.... you're either the best or you suck. Thugs can fight and they don't have to be the best, but they fight with such aggression that they don't have to. Only the very, very best people in the world can keep a calm mind against thugs. Control CAN beat power... just that it takes almost superhuman amounts of it. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
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SaZ - Student 
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yeah. and thats why ppl create movies like 'Muai thai warrior' or ..... STAR WARS  _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Sep 20 2005 09:24pm. |
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Ecks - Student
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That's why the thugs always win _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
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SaZ - Student
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the thugs you speak of are mainly self-trained dudes. this thug fighting style is mostly effective moves to hurt. and martial arts is everything. speciality vs everything , sith vs jedi  _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Ecks - Student
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Vasper, you are not the only martial artist. I take Wado-Ryu Karate, I have trained in Muay Thai, boxing, and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu. While it is for self-defense, in my experience, you have to learn to hurt somebody if you want to learn to fight. Karate is good against untrained opponents, but if you're up against a drunkard in a bar, it's not much use. That's why I've started boxing and Thai boxing, because it teaches practical application of moves on the street, and it pits you against trained fighters, who actually know how to fight back. My friends have gotten into plenty of scrapes, and they come back with broken noses, split lips, and missing teeth. They (two of them train with me) tell me that training for a fight is nothing compared to the real thing. Jedi can spar all they like. Maybe it's to SIMULATE someone trying to kill you. But it's not the real thing. You cannot simulate adrenalin, pain, pure anger, and attack. The only way you can do that is to get out in the field, and do it. Theory and learning is one thing. Application is another. And as for the control thing... a thug can control themselves. If you see a thug fight, you notice how they know how to dodge and throw jabs, timing, and know when to bob and weave. They just don't have the refined form of the martial artist, but form means nothing. It's about stamina, strength, dexterity, and pure pain endurance. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." This comment was edited by Ecks on Sep 19 2005 09:55pm. |
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Carve - Student 
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Well, guy-below-me, the whole point is that he has experience in hurting people. That's why experienced streetfighters typically have a huge advantage over martial artists. It's a different setting, which is really what we've been trying to say about the differences between Dark Siders fighting and Light Siders fighting all along. _______________ © |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student
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Quote: Since you appear to be well versed in fighting arts, I'd just like to ask one question. You said that Jedi train against each other... But do they train against an opponent that really tries to kill them? Is there sparring partner unleashing the full fury of the dark side and attacking with super-Jedi like force? How can you honestly prepare yourself against a fight against an opponent who is trying to kill you if you don't learn to kill him before you? Jedi don't train to kill... they have the ability to kill - anyone does, however. And you said they SPAR, exactly... It's SPARRING, not FIGHTING. If it was supposed to be a real simulation, they should take real Sith and pit them against a Jedi. As for martial artists being able to kick people's asses... Of course that is true against an untrained foe... But I would really, really like to see a martial artist fight a seasoned streetfighter. I assure you, the "master" won't be doing as well as some may think. They do "spar" to kill each other. As Plo said they have training sabers. Similar to the ones the "younglings" use) The only difference is the blade does not permanently harm them. But the hits are hits. As for a Martial Arts Master. I am no master by any means but I have my black belt in Kempo and red belt in Tae Kwan Do. In addition to growing up in a rough neighborhood. Knowing Martial arts does not make anyone invincible. I does however, if used correctly give a person an advantage. Martial arts is more about self control than whoopin someones a$$. Thats where the advantage comes in. Hows a 2bit gangbanger thug gonna control a fight if he/she can't control themselves? _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
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Plo Koon - Student
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Martial Arts isn't about being able to kick anyones "asses". If that Master was a true martial artist he would walk away from the fight unless he had no other choice. As for the jedi, they train with their lightsabers on low power, and they train like they are going to kill their opponent, but when the saber hits the throat, chest, or stomach it burns/stings. There is no doubt in my mind that the jedi are better, because the darksiders fail miserably if not all, most of the time. _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
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Ecks - Student
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Quote: What? My argument of "...no" was in relation to your comparison of lightsaber combat to jogging and sprinting. I don't need evidence to suggest that the comparison is completely irrelevant. Jogging and sprinting to LIGHTSABER COMBAT? Come on. You're right, there are way too many variables with regards to martial arts and their applications in real life situations, but you know what? That comparison is a lot more relevant to lightsaber combat than forms of running. Think about it, the principles are all the same. A higly proficient martial artist doesn't ever kick people's asses, but you know very well that they can if they ever wanted/needed to. They still train against each other, so obviously they're not exactly useless. Jedi do the same thing, they train against each other from a young age. Since you appear to be well versed in fighting arts, I'd just like to ask one question. You said that Jedi train against each other... But do they train against an opponent that really tries to kill them? Is there sparring partner unleashing the full fury of the dark side and attacking with super-Jedi like force? How can you honestly prepare yourself against a fight against an opponent who is trying to kill you if you don't learn to kill him before you? Jedi don't train to kill... they have the ability to kill - anyone does, however. And you said they SPAR, exactly... It's SPARRING, not FIGHTING. If it was supposed to be a real simulation, they should take real Sith and pit them against a Jedi. As for martial artists being able to kick people's asses... Of course that is true against an untrained foe... But I would really, really like to see a martial artist fight a seasoned streetfighter. I assure you, the "master" won't be doing as well as some may think. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
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SaZ - Student
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u guys forget the simple term called 'dark jedi'. yes sith are dark jedi. but dark jedi can be sith and... well just dark jedi. ofcourse dark jedi are like self-trained so they cant compare to sith. so they arent a big threat = u cant read much about them _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student
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Actually I think both Xantos and DC are correct. Jedi were taught lightsaber to lightsaber combat. However, they were only shown the basics due to the fact that their saber wielding enemies were dead. So they thought. I'm sure as a Jedi got more powerful and wise they developed their skills more into their own style, like Yoda and Mace. But the main focus was on blaster deflection. Both forms 3 and 5. Thats the reason that the sith are harder for these Jedi (EpI-III). Sith focus mainly on form 2 (saber vs saber). So when the Jedi encounter them they almost always fight in numbers. Even Yoda is credited with killing a Sith lord if I remember correctly. He was around 150 years old at the time. And even then, it was 17 Jedi against one Sith. As far as the martial arts goes, I believe Jedi use a specific form of it. Modeled after a form of Bushido. _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
This comment was edited by Vasper Ba'xian on Sep 15 2005 06:58am. |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
What? My argument of "...no" was in relation to your comparison of lightsaber combat to jogging and sprinting. I don't need evidence to suggest that the comparison is completely irrelevant. Jogging and sprinting to LIGHTSABER COMBAT? Come on. You're right, there are way too many variables with regards to martial arts and their applications in real life situations, but you know what? That comparison is a lot more relevant to lightsaber combat than forms of running. Think about it, the principles are all the same. A higly proficient martial artist doesn't ever kick people's asses, but you know very well that they can if they ever wanted/needed to. They still train against each other, so obviously they're not exactly useless. Jedi do the same thing, they train against each other from a young age. I'll be repeating everything from hereon in, because I know you're not going to accept an analogy involving martial arts, so that is fine. But as for starwars.com saying that, I didn't see that anywhere? But you're right, a Jedi Master with practise or not will school, which is pretty much what i've been trying to say all along anyway. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade 
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey 
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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Carve - Student 
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Man, I shouldn't even have to tell you about the application of martial arts in real life situations and how there's such a huge difference. That's exactly what I'm saying about dark side vs light side. Also, the idea of Jedi training specifically against blasters and not other lightsabers was taken from STARWARS.COM so I'm pretty sure it's legitimate. They didn't train people to fight to kill people with lightsabers because as far as they knew, they had no lightsaber-wielding enemies at all. No Sith were left. If a Jedi turned to the Dark Side? No problem, send a Jedi Master at them. Practice or not, they'll school. Your argument of "just...no" pretty much shows that you don't have any evidence against it. The point is, if you train to do one thing, you excel at it, and if you train to do one thing but then attempt to do another, you will not be as effective as someone whose primary focus is the thing in question. _______________ © |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
Quote: In case you guys have forgotten, the Jedi weren't trained to fight with lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat as a focus. Their training was primarly geared towards defending from and putting down blaster-wielders. Um, where did you get that idea? Read the Jedi Apprentice series, all they do is saber-to-saber combat at the Jedi Temple. It's really very logical - how are the jedi supposed to fight bad guys with lightsabers? Just because the sith aren't around to keep them in check doesn't mean they don't train to fight saber-to-saber. Any Jedi that hasn't been trained to do so would, in my opinion, suck ass. Comparing jogging and sprinting to lightsaber combat is...no. Quote: The fact that they don't is an inherent weakness because their lack of experience in doing so ultimately equates to a lack of ability. Only those Jedi who have been forced to use their Lightsaber to kill regularly have any useful talent in doing so in a dueling scenario. The fact that they don't isn't a weakness at all. Think of it like fighting arts we use today - karate, for example. We train to use that for self-defense, that's true, but we DO train against each other through sparring, same as what the kids in the Jedi Temple are taught from a young age. A karate practitioner doesn't kill for the sake of it, but I guarantee you, they CAN kill, they just don't. Most martial artists out there who have a high level proficiency in their art(s) know they can kill a person at will, they simply don't. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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Ecks - Student
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Quote: A sprinter trains to sprint. A Dark Sider trains to kill, to conquer. That's why they're better at it. Yeah, that was the whole point of what I was trying to say. >_< If you are designed and train to kill, you are better at it than someone who isn't, even if that other person is more skilled than you. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
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Carve - Student
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I never said they were mindless killers. If they were mindless killers, surely they would be a simple matter to eliminate entirely. Remember, we're talking about lightsaber fighting here. Beyond the scope of lightsaber training is a discussion that would take many pages of many threads to fully discuss. However, from a purely lightsaber-focused point of view, once they have drawn their weapon their intent is to kill any enemies that can't be turned to their side. _______________ © |
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SaZ - Student 
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i think dark siders are not so much of mindless killers u speak of. they are manipulators , chaos makers etc... their main goals are to defeat jedi (for whatever that way is) and to gain more power lol. ofcourse i cant quote anyone or anything on that but well its just what i saw on teh movies _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Carve - Student
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In case you guys have forgotten, the Jedi weren't trained to fight with lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat as a focus. Their training was primarly geared towards defending from and putting down blaster-wielders, since nobody used lightsabers against the Jedi (since all the Sith were supposedly gone). Jedi are not trained to kill, they're trained to protect. Killing can be a necessary evil of that, however, Dark Siders are trained to kill, not protect. That is the focus of their lightsaber training, and it is not the focus of the training of a Light sider. It has nothing to do with willingness, which is what you people are saying -- purposefully or not. You are saying that simply because a Jedi has the capacity to kill, and knows how to do so, they are experts at it. That's simply untrue. The experts in this field are the Sith. Dooku trained specifically with his lightsaber-to-lightsaber skills, unlike most Jedi, and this is why he is one of the most skilled lightsaber combat artists. It's a matter of willingness, experience, and -- most importantly -- mindset. You are comparing sprinters to long-distance runners here. Are they both excellent runners? Yes. Can a long-distance runner run for longer than a sprinter can? Yes. But a sprinter will almost always be faster. They are both training to run, but they are training different aspects of running. A sprinter trains to sprint. A Dark Sider trains to kill, to conquer. That's why they're better at it. Quote: In terms of Jedi and Dark Siders, what makes them 'better at killing', if not for how well they fight / use a lightsaber / their connection with the force / whatever? The Jedi can do anything the dark siders can, they just don't. The fact that they don't is an inherent weakness because their lack of experience in doing so ultimately equates to a lack of ability. Only those Jedi who have been forced to use their Lightsaber to kill regularly have any useful talent in doing so in a dueling scenario. _______________ © This comment was edited by Carve on Sep 13 2005 04:49pm. |
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Ecks - Student
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lol, I suppose you got me there. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
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SaZ - Student
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they still train to kill atleast a bit... because... well in case some very powerful sith lord maybe even by some weird name palpatine, maul or dooku appears _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Ecks - Student
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Quote: Are you telling me that just because the Jedi are trained to use their skills to defend themselves, that they don't even know how to attack, should they choose to? That's absolute rubbish. Killing is not defending. Jedi WILL NOT go out and kill someone directly. They will defend themselves or others, and perhaps as a consequence, kill the opponent. Jedi WILL NOT choose to attack people, because if they did, they would not be Jedi. They would defend themselves or others, and should they kill their opponent, then they do. But they are not TRAINED to kill them, they are trained to defend themselves. If you had a Jedi attack a defenseless enemy, he would not be as effective killing it as a Dark Sider would - simply because they cannot kill someone without a reason. And to Sazabi - Yes, they are only trained to defend. Obi had to kill Anakin to protect the good of the Jedi. I never said they were trained only to defend THEMSELVES - they have to protect the greater good, and if they have to kill, they will. However, it does not mean they are trained to kill. Common sense dictates that someone who focuses all his energy on killing WILL be better at killing - although he may not be as skilled, or as fast as a Jedi. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." This comment was edited by Ecks on Sep 12 2005 09:27pm. |
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SaZ - Student
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some spoilers in my comment here. jedi are trained only to defend? go watch ep3 one more time. 'i will do what i must' - obiwan. now 'jedi only cares about others' - anakin. that means jedi duty is to defend others by killing someone. if they must kill someone that doesnt mean they will give in to their bloodlust... remember they are trained ppl _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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