| Who is the Best Saberist in History ? | |
|
Ian Jandos - Student  |
I suppose there is not a clear cut answer to this. However, I'd like to see what opinions are out there. Obi-Wan and Anakin seemed to be an equal match, perhaps Anakin on flat ground might be better...but considering he lost his cool, perhaps that would happen in a different scenario as well. Dooku, a viable contender, but if Anakin could beat him, then he obviously doesn't rank at the top. Additionally, Palpatine, who diced several Jedi quickly could not dispatch Windu, even with force aiding him. Yoda, who held his own with Palpatine and Dooku did not demonstrate onscreen at least, the ability to land any blows. Whereas Windu was able to win his duel w/Palpatine. Then there are wild cards such as Darth Maul, Qui-Gon, and Luke Skywalker. Maul obviously was very talented, but did not prove he could overpower a youthful Obi-Wan with his saber alone. I wouldn't necessarily give Obi-Wan the advantage, but that brings up enough doubt for me to rank Maul out of contention. Qui-Gon-Jinn, obviously since he died, that kind of takes him down a notch as well. Luke, I would consider to be in the same boat as his father, with the exception that his lack of formal training would probably give him less rank. Sure he bested his father, but that victory came over a simply less capable saberist due to Vader's reliance of robotic limbs. Luke's "win" only came through rage more than say his control. Having said all of that, my vote is for Mace Windu. A solid, polished saberist, who should have been the one that ended the Sith. -Ian _______________ Member #7625 | Since 7.6.04 The Archives This post was edited by Ian Jandos on Jul 22 2005 10:13pm. |
| Poll | ||
Who is the Best Saberist in History?
|
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! | Previous Comments > |
| Comments |
|
Carve - Student 
|
In case you guys have forgotten, the Jedi weren't trained to fight with lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat as a focus. Their training was primarly geared towards defending from and putting down blaster-wielders, since nobody used lightsabers against the Jedi (since all the Sith were supposedly gone). Jedi are not trained to kill, they're trained to protect. Killing can be a necessary evil of that, however, Dark Siders are trained to kill, not protect. That is the focus of their lightsaber training, and it is not the focus of the training of a Light sider. It has nothing to do with willingness, which is what you people are saying -- purposefully or not. You are saying that simply because a Jedi has the capacity to kill, and knows how to do so, they are experts at it. That's simply untrue. The experts in this field are the Sith. Dooku trained specifically with his lightsaber-to-lightsaber skills, unlike most Jedi, and this is why he is one of the most skilled lightsaber combat artists. It's a matter of willingness, experience, and -- most importantly -- mindset. You are comparing sprinters to long-distance runners here. Are they both excellent runners? Yes. Can a long-distance runner run for longer than a sprinter can? Yes. But a sprinter will almost always be faster. They are both training to run, but they are training different aspects of running. A sprinter trains to sprint. A Dark Sider trains to kill, to conquer. That's why they're better at it. Quote: In terms of Jedi and Dark Siders, what makes them 'better at killing', if not for how well they fight / use a lightsaber / their connection with the force / whatever? The Jedi can do anything the dark siders can, they just don't. The fact that they don't is an inherent weakness because their lack of experience in doing so ultimately equates to a lack of ability. Only those Jedi who have been forced to use their Lightsaber to kill regularly have any useful talent in doing so in a dueling scenario. _______________ © This comment was edited by Carve on Sep 13 2005 04:49pm. |
|
Ecks - Student 
|
lol, I suppose you got me there.  _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
|
SaZ - Student 
|
they still train to kill atleast a bit... because... well in case some very powerful sith lord maybe even by some weird name palpatine, maul or dooku appears _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
|
Ecks - Student
|
Quote: Are you telling me that just because the Jedi are trained to use their skills to defend themselves, that they don't even know how to attack, should they choose to? That's absolute rubbish. Killing is not defending. Jedi WILL NOT go out and kill someone directly. They will defend themselves or others, and perhaps as a consequence, kill the opponent. Jedi WILL NOT choose to attack people, because if they did, they would not be Jedi. They would defend themselves or others, and should they kill their opponent, then they do. But they are not TRAINED to kill them, they are trained to defend themselves. If you had a Jedi attack a defenseless enemy, he would not be as effective killing it as a Dark Sider would - simply because they cannot kill someone without a reason. And to Sazabi - Yes, they are only trained to defend. Obi had to kill Anakin to protect the good of the Jedi. I never said they were trained only to defend THEMSELVES - they have to protect the greater good, and if they have to kill, they will. However, it does not mean they are trained to kill. Common sense dictates that someone who focuses all his energy on killing WILL be better at killing - although he may not be as skilled, or as fast as a Jedi. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." This comment was edited by Ecks on Sep 12 2005 09:27pm. |
|
SaZ - Student
|
some spoilers in my comment here. jedi are trained only to defend? go watch ep3 one more time. 'i will do what i must' - obiwan. now 'jedi only cares about others' - anakin. that means jedi duty is to defend others by killing someone. if they must kill someone that doesnt mean they will give in to their bloodlust... remember they are trained ppl  _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
|
xAnAtOs - Student |
Yes, I get what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. Get that? What the hell is 'better at killing', anyway? Killing is killing. It's like comparing a bounty hunter who shoots someone down with an E-11 blaster, and saying that the Sith are 'better' because they use a lightsaber. They both did the same thing, right? In terms of Jedi and Dark Siders, what makes them 'better at killing', if not for how well they fight / use a lightsaber / their connection with the force / whatever? The Jedi can do anything the dark siders can, they just don't. Quote: ..the Dark Sider is still trained to kill without mercy, while the Jedi is trained merely to defend himself. Are you telling me that just because the Jedi are trained to use their skills to defend themselves, that they don't even know how to attack, should they choose to? That's absolute rubbish. If you're going to get into emotions and morals, then obviously the Jedi wouldn't kill random people walking across the street. That doesn't mean they can't. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade 
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey 
Jools is my best friend. 
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
|
Ecks - Student 
|
Dark Sider's ARE always better at killing, because that's what they DO. They are taught to kill. Even if the Jedi is infinitely more skilled than the Dark Sider at dueling (i.e. quicker, stronger strikes, etc.), the Dark Sider is still trained to kill without mercy, while the Jedi is trained merely to defend himself. The Jedi will never try to "kill," so to speak - he will just defend himself, and if the opponent dies, it is a price to be paid. Essentially - The Dark Sider is better at killing, but it doesn't mean the Jedi can't kill him. Get that? _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." This comment was edited by Ecks on Sep 11 2005 12:46am. |
|
xAnAtOs - Student |
Quote: The fact is, Dark Siders will always be more effective at killing people. That's what they do. That's not what dueling is about, though. I dunno about that. Just because a Jedi chooses not to kill people doesn't mean they can't do it effectively. It all comes down to saber skill. I'm not really going to go into anything about offense or defense here, but the bottom line is that the one with the better skills (complemented by a strong connection to the force) will fight (and kill) more effectively. Any Jedi can go out and kill whoever they want, and most effectively at that, they simply choose not to. If dark siders were really so much better at killing, the Jedi would never have been able to keep them at bay for a thousand years or so. They simply would have come out and killed all the Jedi (granted they had the numbers to support them in this quest). All it took was one most powerful fighter, Anakin, to bring down the Jedi under Palpatine's instructions and manipulation. As for Mace vs Palpatine, one line pretty much summed that up: Quote: As far as the Palpatine vs. Mace argument, well, nobody will ever be able to conclusively solve it. You really cannot tell who would've won if Anakin hadn't been there. Personally, though, I think Mace would've chopped his head off. _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
|
SaZ - Student
|
gg carvonus _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
|
AvaloN - Student 
|
Quote: Very nice explanation Carn, I like your reasoning. indeed, but Samuel is so kewl |
|
Strider - Student 
|
Very nice explanation Carn, I like your reasoning. _______________ .: Proud Padawan of Dane |
|
Ecks - Student
|
Nice. _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
|
Carve - Student
|
A big thing people seem to be forgetting is that one style is not superior to every other style. Certain styles are superior to others, so to say who is the "best" is difficult to say. However, when speaking of who has the most effective skill to kill people, which is what I'm assuming we're talking about here, Palpatine is number one. It was said that Count Dooku, before he left the Jedi Order, was THE best duelist save Yoda. Yes, he was better than Mace Windu. Now, better at what, would you say? Count Dooku's technique is a mix of defense and offense that you don't find in any other stances. To be honest, I think Count Dooku's versatility puts him at a great advantage over other duelists. Certainly Obi-Wan would be able to defeat many purely offensive duelists with ease, but what if he were to fight another defensive duelist? That's why Count Dooku won. He was simply more experienced in the ways of dueling versatility. Also, let's not forget that he really was just toying with them. Look at how flippantly he kicks Anakin away and tosses Obi-Wan with the Force. He's tremendously powerful -- just not as Powerful as a focused Anakin. Having said that, Yoda's lightsaber ability stems from his ability to use the Force to augment his skills. Yoda's style, too, is highly versatile -- an excellent mix of offense and defense, if you watch it carefully. You can see that this versatility extends to his padawan, Count Dooku. Now we must consider Yoda's offense and defense as 50/50 for the sake of argument. Now let's look at Palpatine. Clearly, his style is primarily offensive. Pure Dark Jedi use offensive stances; it's that simple. Look at Darth Maul. The only reason Count Dooku is an exception is because he spent so many decades as a Jedi before turning to the Dark Side. So, let's say Palpatine's style is 70 offensive, 30 defensive. Palpatine's 30 defense was able to stand on par with Yoda's 50 offense. However, Yoda's versatility prevented Palpatine from using his offensive abilities. Also notice that Yoda began the duel offensively and, in the later stages of the duel, gradually shifted more towards the defense end. As far as the Palpatine vs. Mace argument, well, nobody will ever be able to conclusively solve it. Frankly, I think it's silly to think that Mace honestly was the victor there. Very early on in the duel, you see Palpatine's lightsaber pointed directly at Mace's throat for a moment, and then he backs off and the duel continues. Now, granted, many people will defend that by saying that they saw many openings in other duels. However, let's not forget that these are not normal people. They can feint and fake-out faster and more effectively than any one of you could possibly imagine, and there's no way to tell exactly what's going on "behind the scenes" i.e. with the Force. They may be trying to give the impression that they'll do one thing with the Force, while trying to do another with their body. Disguise their movements, in a way. But there's no way to defend the fact that Palpatine had his saber right up to Mace's neck and did nothing. From a purely "real life" point of view, why do you think they showed us that particular shot? It was right there, and served no other purpose. His saber moved in, was pointed right at Mace, and then was drawn back. The shot was there specifically to show that Palpatine threw the fight to finalize Anakin's turn to the Dark Side. The fact is, Dark Siders will always be more effective at killing people. That's what they do. That's not what dueling is about, though. As far as being purely defensive or for survival tactics, I would put Yoda at the top with a tie for Anakin and Obi-Wan at the second. Anakin lost because he was in emotional turmoil. He wasn't purely twisted and evil like Darth Maul or Emperor Palpatine. He was almost, almost playing both sides and, with the Force, you can't do that. So yeah. There's my rant. P.S. the reason Anakin beat Dooku is because, quite frankly, when Anakin is focused, I would say he is arguably the best duelist -- simply because of his connection with the Force. _______________ © This comment was edited by Carve on Sep 05 2005 11:55pm. |
|
Eica - Student 
|
I Am the best [staff] saberist ever _______________ Former padawan of RoseRed This comment was edited by Eica on Sep 05 2005 05:23pm. |
|
NotSoLittleCaesar - Student 
|
Quote: Sauce is the best saberist ever, case closed lies =o if were going into PURIST non poking. its |edi'maze. pnt =D!! _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
|
|
Ecks - Student
|
Quote: lies. max payne ownz all. A-freaking-men. (Amen) _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." This comment was edited by Ecks on Sep 03 2005 11:50pm. |
|
Carve - Student
|
Palpatine was faking it. He's the best duelist in the Galaxy. _______________ © |
|
SaZ - Student 
|
lies. max payne ownz all. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
|
JK13 /// jaws. - Student 
|
Sauce is the best saberist ever, case closed _______________ It's a false hologram, it IS artificial... |
|
tarpman - The Tarped Avenger 
|
Sorry, but my character in KotOR 2 is the best saberist in all of history.  _______________ Saving the world, one kilobyte at a time. |
|
Ecks - Student
|
Adi Gallia was a ninja copycat Everything about her was all cunning and deception... So I suppose in field missions, or indirect combat, she would be effective, but in one on one combat against a real saberist, she would go down. Come on, more Yoda supporters! _______________ "To become a greater man, you must be a lesser one first." |
|
Mreoton - Student |
Adi Gallia She uses her sabers backwards  coolest stance ever. Shame she was killed by the seperatists in Episode 2  |
|
Strider - Student
|
I personally think Darth Maul just got cocky and Obi Wan got lucky killing Maul. But..eh.. Mace Windu all the way! _______________ .: Proud Padawan of Dane |
|
SaZ - Student
|
Quote: darth maul got lamed by obi wan saber up _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
|
Eica - Student 
|
darth maul got lamed by obi wan _______________ Former padawan of RoseRed |
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! | Previous Comments > |