| Removal of JAS sub-ranks | |
|
.Templar. - ex-Student  |
Ok guys, I've finally gotten up the courage to make this post, whether it gets me kicked from the JA or not.
I respect the JAT/JAC decision on removing the JAS sub ranks, but I personally, and several other members of the academy think it was a bad idea - and here is why, ALSO - guys, if you agree with me, please post and add what you want so I'm not alone on this - 90% of the students that join the JA dont know how to perform a DFA or YDFA or lunge or any of the likes, nor do they know what they are called, I was like that when I joined, now granted I could dfa and ydfa and lunge n such, but I knew ZILCH about doing combos, the ONLY thing that made me stay in the JA instead of just going to another random FFA server - Was the fact that you had ranks, goals for me to achieve, and to measure my progress by, and I knew if I stuck with it, I'd increase my game, which I did, if it had been like the JA is now, where you had to sign up for classes and meet appointments not knowing what to expect, I would have said forget this and removed the website from my fav's list, but the ranks kept me, and I know I'm not the only one who experienced that,I learned everything I know not from the few classes I've attended, but from the other students and people in the academy, and myself of course, and the only thing that got me headed in the right direction was the Jman trial, which taught me how combos worked, how to make them, how to extend them, limits, and all that good stuff, and I went on from there, now I understand even with the new change - there are still students to teach other students the stuff, but if someone had asked me if I wanted to go over combos with them, I would have been dumbfounded, and more than likely said no, thinking it was something too difficult, so yet again, I have to re emphasize how important the learner trials are, they teach you the basis of all saber combat in the game, and with preset goals to achieve, it makes it easy to learn it all. In a way, the system as it is now "join any class you want, learn what you want, dont learn what you dont, have fun" is basically the same thing as having children, and saying "Well kids, you can study science if you want, or math.. hell, dont even go to school if you dont want to, just have fun with your life!", in the longrun, they realize how much help it actually was, and that in the longrun it was actually enjoyable - And that, everyone, is why I think ranks should not have been removed, they were the SOLE thing that seperated the JA from being just-another-clan-run FFA server with rules - With that last statement I'll end this post, I hope mabye some others will post and we can get the JA back to the way it was. |
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! | Previous Comments > |
| Comments |
|
Chainer - Ex-Student 
|
"You'll have people constantly trying to get the JAT's to give them a trial because they think they are ready for it. That's the reason they brought in the points system, the JAT's were getting pounded with requests for trials and had to fail many because they weren't ready"
Failing is a part of learning Buzz the jats i think should have been able to cope with this in a miture way ( not saying they didnt) i thought trials at classes only was great and every class was full on the last month or so. Failing a trial isnt the end of the world but i think it helped many students figure out they needed more practice and learned for THEMSELVES a pace at wich they should take trials and learned from this and continuied to take the classes to pass this time round. I dont think what the jats/jacs did was wrong but i think it was a off descision if a system doesnt work we should refine best we can not do away with it. Just my 2 cents |
|
Chainer - Ex-Student 
|
=) |
|
ioshee - Student 
|
I wouldn’t compare letting people have free choices about what classes they take to improve their skill at a video game to school in real life. The Council members are not your parents and thus have no responsibility for you in that way. What adverse affects will it have on the Academy if someone can’t find motivation in himself or herself to learn? None.
The ranks in general were too closely associated with pride. I have heard more positive feedback from rank removal than negative. As it is now, if someone comes here thinking this is a place just to show off and get recognition (like a lot of clans) they can just keep on moseying. That’s fine with me. No rank = no pride = more fun for everyone _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
|
Battlin' Billy - Student 
|
I was reading through this thread and had a thought (as indicated by the smoke coming from my ears  ).
I was never too crazy about the points system, but I kinda liked the ranks. I thought this might be something to consider. How 'bout having just 3 ranks: Initiate(when you're accepted to the JA), then Learner OR J-man, then ofcourse JAK. Instead of requesting a trial for the 2nd rank, maybe students should be nominated for that trial as well. Instead of class points, have the requirement be that a) you need to have been here for a certain amount of time (1-2 months?) b) you must be nominated by a JAT, JAK or JAC if they notice that you're improving in skill AND upholding the rules/ideals of the JA. I also felt that the trials (at least the Learner) was easily passed if you could do the moves. Instead of just performing the moves, you should be able to demonstrate them while duelling. I don't know that's my 2¢ 
_______________ Midbie Council Member #2 - Profile ID 2073 | Member of B@rtM@ulS@ar | Owner of Monty's 2000th comment & D@RtHM@UL's 8100th comment | Former Padawan of SilkMonkey & Arcuss JA Goaltender & NHL Fan | Fellow Rush fan to Axion|Plo Koon is my oldest JA friend Post your RL pics HERE! | Post you JK2/JK3 screenies HERE! |
|
.Templar. - Ex-Student 
|
Buzz, you make it seem like every clan on earth is filled with immature brats - That is not the case, mabye YOU havent experienced any better, but I sure have, not ALL clans are like the average clan run ffa server, notice I didnt call the JA an average FFA server, I called it just another ffa server, meaning it is becoming one of those "nicer" clan run ffa servers - And even still, there are some quite irrisponsible people in seats of power at the JA, I choose to keep this JAK nameless, but several other people, and another JAK and JAT sat and watched him call me moron and idiot repedally in the public chat simply because the console command to show IP wasnt working right for me. (Edit) Also, If the JAT's are getting pounded by requests to do trials, then I have a simple solution, hold class slots that are strictly for trial, one every 2 days, and tell the students, do NOT ask under any circumstances - And I dont think I was clear on what I meant by leaving the application for rank ups in (Pending) status, I simply meant that if you did this, the students would have more time to think about what they have learned, and practice it more This comment was edited by .Templar. on Mar 17 2003 11:34pm. |
|
Buzz - Student 
|
If you make things too complicated and hard you're just going to have people getting frustrated that they can't figure it out and just give up and quit. There are people that when ranks are initiated think that the only way that they are improving is to go up in rank and that not the case. Putting "pending" on a lot longer won't solve the problem of people asking constantly when they are going to get approved. You'll have people constantly trying to get the JAT's to give them a trial because they think they are ready for it. That's the reason they brought in the points system, the JAT's were getting pounded with requests for trials and had to fail many because they weren't ready.
And I just noticed this ending statement on your original post "they were the SOLE thing that seperated the JA from being just-another-clan-run FFA server with rules - With that last statement I'll end this post, I hope mabye some others will post and we can get the JA back to the way it was.” You really think that this is just a clan run server with rules? I really have to disagree with you on that. This is far from a clan server. Anyone can join the academy pretty much. Clan servers don’t really promote training and learning the game, they promote owning and being l33t. People don’t get kicked off of the servers here for petty reasons. Admins aren’t turning on empower constantly and fighting. The clan members aren’t just fighting in their own little clique excluding casual passers through. And back to the way it was? I think DJ made it pretty clear in the Spring Cleaning News post that removal of the ranks is getting the JA back to the way it was. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
.Templar. - Ex-Student
|
Bubu, I totally agree with you on making ranks harder, they need to make learner just a little bit more difficult, not much tho, just to teach the newcomers the BASIC saber moves - But the JMAN needs to be increased alot, I constantly see people saying that people only learn the minimum requirement.. well, how about make the minimum requirement, something like you have to explain how combos work, what stances can chain how many moves, ask them more advanced questions about kicking abilities, most people dont know you can foward kick someone whos laying on the ground, and ask them to go VERY in depth with the force, that would keep the students busy for quite a while, because if the JAT/JAK/JAC's played their cards right, they could be VERY unpredictable and give the guy something out of the blue, and if he researched properly, hed have it down pat, if not, hed fail and have to do it again - One thing I want to clear up, I did NOT like the class system, it was implimented after I got to Jman rank, so it didnt really apply to me, but the few classes I was able to get into, I couldnt even sign up for because EVERY class was full, so I gave up on getting any class points.
You guys should also add something that pops up at the beginning, saying you may only ask for your trial ONCE while you are here, do not spam it, and to go even further, you could make the trial application sheets stay in "pending" for a long time And to Bubu again, about your earlier post, You are right, this is NOT school, its not real life its a game, I know this, but I figured everyone would have seen when people can only use classes as a tool to get better with - I.E. Rank ups, the classes were ALWAYS full, no chance that someone who's new would be able to get in to a class, because more than likely they wouldnt ask to sit in even though it was full. Basically, if you arent going to re-add the rank system, you should at least add somethin in the peoples profile that suggests what classes they should take, like this: Classes Beginner |-| Intermediate |-| Advanced And then have the JAT's all switch the classes between themselves so that like Monday Zero has beginners, Eclipse has intermediate, and JJ has advanced, and then do all of the classes again on friday, and let 3 different JAT's do them, so that way the people are always able to find the corrisponding class with their list, that way the beginners could teach the very basics, I.E. the same stuff from learners, then Intermediate could teach the same stuff from the JMAN trial, then Advanced could go over fighting techniques and counter's and all that good stuff. |
|
DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
|
Time for "the man" to pipe in. 
We added the ranks way back when to give the students motivation to learn. While this worked for some students I think many others took advantage of the system for personal advancement as opposed to the open community learning enviorment we had before the ranks. Students don't sit still in class, and whine all the way up the chain when they didn't get their point, or because a JAT didnt have time to trial him because he or she was too busy trialing 3 other students. Thats not how it was when we started, and as much as part of me didn't want to do it we removed the ranks. They did serve as a motivational tool, however they weren't the *right* motivational tool. Another aspect is the ranking system added this whole stucture to the heirarchy that sickened me. I'm a guy who likes to keep it simple, but trying to get a system down for all the students we had left a big mess in our hands. It was a good try, but ultimately didn't work, IMO. Right now your motivation will have to come from within, like it did before we had rank. _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
|
Mistral - Ex-Student 
|
Personally I was never too bothered whether I achieved a higher rank or not. I'm still relatively new here and I see more experienced members of the Academy have already pointed out why rank isn't as important as learning. However, I would like to add that when I first joined the JA I was under the misguided impression that those ranked higher knew more than those not and thus should be shown more respect. I'm now a little more informed and see how wrong I was.
Everyone is due equal respect here, regardless of rank. Rank, as stated by Buzz, is not an indication of skill/knowledge as there are many others here that know just as much and have been around just as long. So what is rank good for? Well basically, if someone is ranked Knight or above it shows they can be trusted, that they have been selected for that position based on maturity, patience, willingness to help etc. I suppose it also shows they are willing to accept the roles and responsibilities associated with being a Jedi Knight. Ask them a question and you can be assured of a straight answer and more help than you can shake a stick at. Wanna know how I measure my progress at the Academy? I duel. Example. The other day I was on a server and beat this guy 3 times in a row. He then invited anyone who thought they could beat me to come to the pad. They did, and I won every duel until it was time to go, leaving unbeaten. A proud moment for me as this time last month I was getting my ass kicked all over the place. That's a better indication of how much I've learned at the JA than rank and more satisfying. Hopefully I can pass on my new-found knowledge to new members of the JA. I hereby award you 200 points and,if it makes any difference and nobody objects, why not promote yourself to "Jedi Knight In Waiting" or something. Also, I'm sure someone else out there has a brick with your name on it . This comment was edited by Mistral on Mar 17 2003 06:17pm. |
|
Bubu - Hubbub 
|
Good point MoS, and buzz.
This is actually the way to go MoS. You have more chances of becoming a JAK, or anything at all, if you don't expect it. From what I've seen JACs and JATs are more comfortable giving rank to people like that than to people who actively seek out to become JAKs or JATs or whatever.. _______________ make install -not war |
|
Buzz - Student 
|
I said a "real reflection." The ranks showed that you could do the moves and things required to pass the trial to reach that rank. But it didn't really mean you were actually better than people of a lower rank. It just meant you were of a higher rank and proved that you knew the moves.
And sometimes ranks in real life are not a good reflection of experience. There have been incompetent generals in command of militaries before. People don't join a military and hope to reach Captain or General in 3 weeks of service like some here hoped to do with journeyman. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
MINDofSIN - Student 
|
I don't think people should spend all their time trying to become a Knight.
I'm too much of a free spirit to be chained down by "the man". (DJ Sith  )
After all, I'm no Jedi, just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions(of how to improve my skills). _______________ Jedi Academy Holocron http://jaholocron.ryanmh.com/ Why should our government send our soldiers to foreign soil to protect freedom of speech, when our freedom of speech is being taking away everyday by the same government. |
|
Bubu - Hubbub 
|
yeah if we went back to ranks, the trials would have to be A LOT harder IMO.
coz the way it was before, anyone who wanted to be a learner or jman, simply took 5 minutes to learn what he/she needed for the trial, pass it in another 5 minutes, and then complain about their lack of class points coz they want to become knights. I'm not saying everyone was like that, but there were a lot of these, too many in fact. now that the ranks are gone, these people are trying harder to actually know this stuff and prove that they know it in other ways. this way it is much harder to reach JAKhood. to get yourself on the JATs' map is not an easy task. and this is the way it should be. _______________ make install -not war |
|
Fizz of Belouve - Student 
|
buzz, I thougt someone would reply that when I wrote that.
I mean, I am no owner, and I like to duel some JATs on occasion. but, heck, once in a while. I like to duel ppl that are about the same skill level. Of course I dont exclusively duel these, but I like is that way. Well, if you say a rank does not reflect one's skill and knowledge, then the trials are wrong. Dont get me wrong, but look at RealLife ranks. Higher rank - higher experience and general better abilities. So maybe we're pulling the wrong end here. _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
|
Buzz - Student
|
well said Bubu
Fizz, no disrepect to when you would go and ask people their rank so you could only duel people you knew would stand a chance. I was only an initiate for so long and barely took the rank of learner. Yet I could on occasion beat Silent Whisper along with other trainers and the knights as well. The ranks were not a real reflection of anyones actual skill besides them knowing the moves to get them that rank. The only time I have ever turned down duels is when I'm doing other things along with playing the game. Be they better than me at my skill level or worse than me. Those better than me I hope to learn a few things in the process so I may be able to beat them some day. Those at my skill level I hope to beat or at least see how they duel so I can learn what to do and not to do. And those that are a lower skill than me I hope will learn something from me continually beating them to the ground. The thing is that the only real way to know where people fall into these categories is to fight them and fight them several times to see how well they are. Ranks don't determine that here or anywhere really. You could be the Supreme Dragon Jedi Master of the Ultimate Saber in one clan. You can smoke everyone of them but you go and fight another clan and not even be able to touch their lowest ranked padawan. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Mar 17 2003 05:12pm. |
|
Bubu - Hubbub
|
i don't see why we need to create motivation for the students. you say ranks are for motivation. this place is not mandatory. it is not a school. it is not part of everybody's life. it is totally voluntary. if you really want to learn, then you will. if we have to make you want to learn, then personally i don't want you here. you don't need the trials in order to learn combos. the main point of this place is to make you better at the game. in order to be really good at it you need to know everything it has to offer. and so you would by yourself take a class that teaches combos if you really wanted to. the information is there. we don't need to make you want to go get it. if you want a nice rank, go join a clan, as has been said before.
on a side note, some students and JAKs (including me) are working on an "Archive" with lots of stuff about the game in general as well as the JA in it. That should help people to grasp the big picture a bit better. Till then, go out there and learn by yourself (or take classes of course), you don't need anything to work towards except your own personal gain. _______________ make install -not war |
|
Jake Kainite - Student 
|
Rnak was not a defintion of skill, knowledge or ability though. Some people know loads about this game, they just don't win every single duel they fight, which although denied, still seemed to be a deciding factor on how good someone was.
You can't learn timing or skill, you can only learn knowledge and tactics and practice with what timing and skill you have in hope of improving. This takes years of first person shooting games though _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
|
|
MINDofSIN - Student
|
Jeez Fizz, way to let me down easy...you just lost your kindness badge.
 _______________ Jedi Academy Holocron http://jaholocron.ryanmh.com/ Why should our government send our soldiers to foreign soil to protect freedom of speech, when our freedom of speech is being taking away everyday by the same government. |
|
Fizz of Belouve - Student 
|
well, the way I would have done it was making the whole point system w/o knowledge of the students.
the points for some trials were not mandatory but rather an recommendation to be able to take the trial. another benefit of the rank system was that , if u dont know a guy, u ask for his rank and that tells quite a bit as well. iE when earching some ppl to duel, u rather pick guys that stand a chance. (at least I preffer to do that most of the time) _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
|
Buzz - Student
|
You're associating ranks with what you learn here. you don't really need the ranks for that. All we really need is a layout that says: These are the first things you should try to learn. And once you learn those you should try to work on these. Like I said, not ranks but a more structured set of things people should try to learn. By the way its always been stated that you don't have to go to classes here or try and gain any of those ranks. So the only change the removal of ranks did was remove people from asking trainers if they'll get points for this class or being asked when they are going to get their trial or why they aren't getting a nomination for knight. The JA isn't just for the students to have fun, this is not the trainers real jobs so they aren't being paid for their time spent training people. They're here because they want to have fun teaching not going "Ok these people attended class, these are the ones that learned it, so they get points, these people didn't show up so they lose a point." _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
Fizz of Belouve - Student
|
no way. those badge idea sounds crap indeed.
reminds me of the favorite line :"Those who die, unjustified, are wearing the badge of the chosen white...." just think of all n00bs that would try to impress a JAT to gain a badge... nono ....very bad idea.... _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
|
Iceman - away- - Student |
Well I think it was good that they took away the ranks like learner and journeyman. I think that some only attended to classes to get points and finaly become a knight. And when they got tired they wanted more and more. And the teachers I think got tired of questions like= will I get points? If I was a teacher and tried to teach others and then it came one of those who just talked all the time and asked things about points and stuff. |
|
Plo Koon - Student 
|
well i think the learner trials where important to teach the ppl that dont know zip to get them knowing what a kick or backslash is...
-plo _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
|
MINDofSIN - Student
|
I liked ranks. I absolutely hated points with a burning passion.
I almost hate to say it, because it would be hard, but a section for "badges" might serve to motivate. Badges would be awarded by JAKs and JATs for exceptional performance, knowledge, or behavior. Like a Level 1 Basic Moves Badge. A Great Behavior Under Adverse Circumstances Badge. There would be no need to demonstrate, because the JAKs and JATS will know by watching you play. Anyone asking for badges will not get one, no matter what. In my old DF2 clan we had that. We actually used the same badges as the US army for most things. Everything from making a kill over 1500m to being with the group the longest. It worked out well for us and was completely separate from rank. I'm happy the way things are, but Templar, if you want something like ranks back, I think badges would be the next best way to go. Peace out. _______________ Jedi Academy Holocron http://jaholocron.ryanmh.com/ Why should our government send our soldiers to foreign soil to protect freedom of speech, when our freedom of speech is being taking away everyday by the same government. This comment was edited by MINDofSIN on Mar 17 2003 01:29pm. |
|
Fizz of Belouve - Student
|
well, that post shows a lot of insight. and I agree with you. I liked the rank system, and I even liked the points system.
But I dont think the JACs are stupid, and they will have well thought out their decision. But ur arguments weigh, and I am eager to see wheter or not you gain any movement towards reinstating the old system. _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! | Previous Comments > |