| BREAKING NEWS: V-TECH KILLER SENDS PACKAGE TO NBC | |
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CuZzA - Student  |
NBC has just recieved a package from The V-Tech mass murderer (Cho Seung-Hui). The package was believed to have been sent during the 2 and a half hour time gap between the first 2 killings and the other 30+.
Click Here _______________ - Even if Carlsberg made "w*nkers", Christiano Ronaldo would still be the biggest "w*nker" in the world |
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Raziel Anjelis - Student 
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Discussion time.
*Pulls out the popcorn and watches the temperature soar to the high 80s* _______________ Proud owner of El Vee For's 200th Comment, and Wicek's 2600th comment  DaMi3N's 400th, Trad Redav's 666th.
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Everon - Student - The winner!!! 
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Quote: Yawn...
A very good contribution to the discussion. - Zeke. |
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Kenwan Obiobi - Student |
Yawn... |
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planK - Jedi Council 
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Quote:
Quote:
A gun is a tool that causes death ---> Therefore it is unnecessary in a civilized society ---> Therefore it should not be available for purchase, as there is no need for it. ---> Therefore the offender would not have been able to buy it. ---> Therefore, 32 lives might have been spared. ---> Therefore if we cover the entire U.S ---> At least 10 000 prevented deaths.
Of course, having the ability to take someone else's life is quite satisfying isn't it, cowboys? Living in a fantasy world is so nice, isn't it? Ok guns are bad they should be banned so that no one can buy them. Here's what you do. Stop all gun manufacturers. Then have China, North Korea, all Southeast asian nations disarm. Have India and Pakistan disarm. Have the African Continent Disarm. Have every muslim middle east country disarm. Get South America to disarm. Get Europe to disarm. Get Canada to disarm. Get Mexico to disarm. And by disarm I mean the elimination of all firearms in every facet. Then have the US and Israel disarm. That is what you would need to do to make guns unavailable for purchase. Nothing else will work to disarm the population. To do it any other way is a fantasy. The idea that making guns illegal in the US is a joke. You know since drugs are illegal, and crossing the border from mexico is illegal. Both of those cases are such good indication that criminals wouldn't be able to get guns. Oh yeah you'll also need to make most metal working equipment illegal as well, since an individual with the proper tools can make a gun. And bullets too. The recipe for gun powder can be found in many places. You could say that these would be crude instruments but if that's all that available there would be a market in the criminal black market for it if that was available. And since you don't have a gun because you chose to follow the law they would have the advantage. And you can't have the military or cops have guns, because that would just take a few corrupt individuals in the manufacturing or in those organizations to start funneling weapons to the black market. If everyone were civil in a civilized society you would be right that guns wouldn't be needed. However if everyone were civil in a civilized society you wouldn't have to lock the door to your car or your home, ever. Gonna have to agree with our resident SGT Barnes here. 
Hey, i'd be very happy if taking guns off of civilians was actually feasable. Unfortunately, it really isn't. Guns are very illegal in the UK, except in very rare cases, and people are still managing to get their hands on them. People have even been shot up here, which is incredibly rare. The problem is that even if firearms were illegal, people could still make them, like Buzz said. I heard that a popular way of this happening down in London is people are converting gas-powered BB guns to fire live rounds, which is a scary thought considering how such weapons can be purchased legally via mail order or the internet with very few questions asked, if any at all. I suppose guns aren't really the issue; it's the fact that there are alot of complete morons out there that can get their hands on them. In an ideal world, nobody would need a gun. Unfortunately, that's not the case.  This comment was edited by planK on Apr 22 2007 08:15am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Quote: In a pro-gun environment where everyone is able to carry weapons, I'd have to constantly look over my shoulder in fear of my own safety. It could come from anywhere, all it takes is point it and pull and then I'd be dead. It doesn't have to be a psycho, it could be a drunk, someone who doesn't agree with my ethnical background, a mistake resulting in one of the many guns around going off. I don't want to constantly be on my guard when going to town, but I would nevertheless be if anyone could be armed at anytime.
People get afraid when there are weapons nearby that could end their lives in an instant and isn't that just basic human psychology. Guns arent' a good choice for self-defence since they can easily kill the opponent. I'd suggest pepper spray or similar. Guns kill, and thou shall not kill. So what's really the point with them? Raising your frail egos? I feel sorry for you that you are so afraid of your fellow man. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Quote: A gun is a tool that causes death ---> Therefore it is unnecessary in a civilized society ---> Therefore it should not be available for purchase, as there is no need for it. ---> Therefore the offender would not have been able to buy it. ---> Therefore, 32 lives might have been spared. ---> Therefore if we cover the entire U.S ---> At least 10 000 prevented deaths.
Of course, having the ability to take someone else's life is quite satisfying isn't it, cowboys? Living in a fantasy world is so nice, isn't it? Ok guns are bad they should be banned so that no one can buy them. Here's what you do. Stop all gun manufacturers. Then have China, North Korea, all Southeast asian nations disarm. Have India and Pakistan disarm. Have the African Continent Disarm. Have every muslim middle east country disarm. Get South America to disarm. Get Europe to disarm. Get Canada to disarm. Get Mexico to disarm. And by disarm I mean the elimination of all firearms in every facet. Then have the US and Israel disarm. That is what you would need to do to make guns unavailable for purchase. Nothing else will work to disarm the population. To do it any other way is a fantasy. The idea that making guns illegal in the US is a joke. You know since drugs are illegal, and crossing the border from mexico is illegal. Both of those cases are such good indication that criminals wouldn't be able to get guns. Oh yeah you'll also need to make most metal working equipment illegal as well, since an individual with the proper tools can make a gun. And bullets too. The recipe for gun powder can be found in many places. You could say that these would be crude instruments but if that's all that available there would be a market in the criminal black market for it if that was available. And since you don't have a gun because you chose to follow the law they would have the advantage. And you can't have the military or cops have guns, because that would just take a few corrupt individuals in the manufacturing or in those organizations to start funneling weapons to the black market. If everyone were civil in a civilized society you would be right that guns wouldn't be needed. However if everyone were civil in a civilized society you wouldn't have to lock the door to your car or your home, ever. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Steinin - Student 
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A gun is a tool that causes death ---> Therefore it is unnecessary in a civilized society ---> Therefore it should not be available for purchase, as there is no need for it. ---> Therefore the offender would not have been able to buy it. ---> Therefore, 32 lives might have been spared. ---> Therefore if we cover the entire U.S ---> At least 10 000 prevented deaths.
In a pro-gun environment where everyone is able to carry weapons, I'd have to constantly look over my shoulder in fear of my own safety. It could come from anywhere, all it takes is point it and pull and then I'd be dead. It doesn't have to be a psycho, it could be a drunk, someone who doesn't agree with my ethnical background, a mistake resulting in one of the many guns around going off. I don't want to constantly be on my guard when going to town, but I would nevertheless be if anyone could be armed at anytime. People get afraid when there are weapons nearby that could end their lives in an instant and isn't that just basic human psychology. Guns arent' a good choice for self-defence since they can easily kill the opponent. I'd suggest pepper spray or similar. Guns kill, and thou shall not kill. So what's really the point with them? Raising your frail egos? _______________ 362 Ohi on! This comment was edited by Steinin on Apr 22 2007 03:25am. |
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Buzz - Student
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It is stupid to blame the tool for the act of the user. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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planK - Jedi Council 
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I don't necessarily believe in this quote but one of my AAO buddies posted it on a forum and it made me lawl.
Quote: If guns kill people, then....
-Pencils miss spel words. -Cars make people drive drunk. -Spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat. |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: This arguement about "All Americans have the right to bare arms" and "It's been in the constitution for years" etc. is completely pointless and invalid.
Can I just emphasise the fact that the constitution has been around for years? Like, what? 300? 400? Something along those lines? Obviously the American's needed it then as the stupid British would cause all you lot trouble. We don't live in the Wild-West now either, so what's the point? It's absolute b*ll*cks that the gun-crime rate is increasing over here in England aswell. The constitution is 216 years old. And its not invalid just because you say so. You don't live in america and no one here is saying that you need to change your country to have laws like america. Obviously the opposite cannot be said. What is it about your fellow man that makes you fear his having a gun? Are you afraid that if he had a gun he will do harm to you? If that is what he desires a gun isn't needed. Banning guns only takes them out of the hands of people who follow the law. Criminals are already breaking the law so why would they care if suddenly the gun, or type of bullet, they are using is now illegal when they are holding it to your head so you hand over your wallet? The only person responsible for my safety is me, and no one else, and I should be able to handle my safety how I choose under the law, not how you think I should. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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CuZzA - Student 
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This arguement about "All Americans have the right to bare arms" and "It's been in the constitution for years" etc. is completely pointless and invalid.
Can I just emphasise the fact that the constitution has been around for years? Like, what? 300? 400? Something along those lines? Obviously the American's needed it then as the stupid British would cause all you lot trouble. We don't live in the Wild-West now either, so what's the point? It's absolute b*ll*cks that the gun-crime rate is increasing over here in England aswell. _______________ - Even if Carlsberg made "w*nkers", Christiano Ronaldo would still be the biggest "w*nker" in the world |
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planK - Jedi Council
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Kevlar is awesome! It just sucks when the ocassional British soldier has to miss out on it because of shortages. Boo! |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: Give everyone a gun is just plain stupid, Buzz im sorry but teenagers should not carry guns, they are not legal to drink alcohol but are allowed to be in control of a gun ? Jesus.
We dont have guns over here as much and guess what ? no mentally ill people going on gun rampages. Guns good for self defense ? Tell that to the farmer that shot a thief that broke in to his house and ended up in jail himself.. You seem very baised on pro guns, so your not open to other people opinions. Dont keep replying with why guns are needed. I haven't said give everyone a gun monteeee. These also are not teenagers. These are college students they are legal adults. People their age are serving and fighting in the military. Mentally ill people aren't supposed to be able to get guns over here either. Enforce the rules on the books already. I'm not saying why guns are needed. You don't want a gun, you don't need to have one, I don't want to make you have one. Its your choice, and I'm not going to tell you different. So why are you so willing to tell others what they can't have. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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Give everyone a gun is just plain stupid, Buzz im sorry but teenagers should not carry guns, they are not legal to drink alcohol but are allowed to be in control of a gun ? Jesus.
We dont have guns over here as much and guess what ? no mentally ill people going on gun rampages. Guns good for self defense ? Tell that to the farmer that shot a thief that broke in to his house and ended up in jail himself.. You seem very baised on pro guns, so your not open to other people opinions. Dont keep replying with why guns are needed. _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Menaxia - Student 
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You want protection Buzz?
Wear Kevlar. A gun is a provocative object. _______________ This is not the place to look for me |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: Think of it this way: are you prepared to sacrifice a normal quality of life for an event that is less likely to happen than being struck by lightning ten times in a row? I'm not. So that's a difference of opinion, then.
How does a teacher carrying a gun sacrifice someone's normal quality of life? 32 people had their quality of life sacrificed because no one else had a gun. Its very sad that you think allowing responsible citizens to carry firearms sacrifices your quality of life. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Buzz - Student
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Quote: You think escalating this by having other students have concealed weapons would *solve* violence on campus?
Yes I do. But not just the students, the teachers would also be allowed to carry. In fact: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288 Quote: You know what escalation leads to? Instead of this asshole walking in with two handguns and killing 32 people and injuring 30 more, he drives a U-Haul full of fertalizer into a dorm and kills 320 and injures 300 more. How are you going to combat that?
No, that's what would have happened had he not been able to acquire a gun at all. Quote: And as only someone who's been near a campus riot can say - I don't want ANY students with guns.
Its a shame that you are so afraid of your fellow man. Quote: What is needed is more understanding, observation and care of people's behavior from peers, etc, to prevent such (very sad) incidents. As sad as it is, the truth is that if someone wants to do something like this, they can. If someone is so determined to kill a bunch of innocent people that they are willing to give their own life for it, it is near impossible to stop them. Without having a 24/7 government issued babysitter following everyone around, it is impossible to stop some idiot from legally obtaining a gun, going into a crowded room, and firing away.
Most idiots aren't able to acquire guns legally. I do not know Virginia's gun laws but I would think they do have background checks for the purchase of firearms. There are multiple factors that could have stopped this. If one of the girls he had stalked had decided to press criminal charges. If the school had reported his mental instability to the police. If the judge who checked him as being a danger to himself had also marked down a danger to others. Any of these could have stopped him. If the ACLU hadn't made it illegal to keep mentally ill people against their will, this might not have happened. I do believe that the blame does end at the psycho though. His teachers and the authorities all tried to stop him, but his tapes referred to the columbine shooters as martyrs, so the blame falls on him. Mentally ill or not, if he had survived I could not see any jury in the world finding him not guilty by reason of insanity. Quote: I agree. A district court ruled that he presented "an imminent danger to self and others due to mental illness" which was necessary for a detention order and an evaluation by a state doctor. However, the psychatric hospital just put him on drugs and let him go
Unfortunately http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3052278&page=1 at some point they didn't check that box. Quote: The irresponsible inaction of the police to properly assess the situation and at least give out warnings after the first shooting took place has been a huge asset to the killer.
The police did nothing wrong in their actions. They had a situation that appeared to be a domestic murder. They were following procedures based upon that. The school had notified students of an incident at that dormitory, there did not appear to be a need to lockdown the school. That procedure will likely change. Quote: Also, this incident is a great example of how the reduction of certain liberties for security can have the exact opposite effect
As a book once published by Benjamin Franklin said: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Quote: Agreed. But if the killer had decided to keep on firing right after the first two murders, the police still couldn't have stopped him. Bullets travel a lot faster than officers.
And thus the students should have been allowed to carry firearms. Quote: Alright, so - arm the teachers. Put the protection of many in the hands of a few responsible people. We have a system like that, and it's called 'the police'. You can't just give a gun to teachers without teaching them to use it properly, and then your middle-aged English professor also happens to be trained in armed response.
One teacher was former military. So your idea that this would be a bunch of people running around waving guns and not knowing how to use them stops at that point. And you do not require anyone to be armed. You give them the choice to be armed. Someone who chooses to carry a gun is probably going to learn how to use it. Quote: What kind of sick society is that
I don't find allowing individuals to defend themselves how they see fit to be sick at all. What I find sick is a society so afraid of eachother that they aren't willing to allow their neighbors to own a gun. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Kenyon - Lord of the Dance 
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Quote: Concealed Carry would.
True, but that's the whole point we're discussing, isn't it? 
Quote: I'd find that way more reassuring than being at the mercy of a madman.
Think of it this way: are you prepared to sacrifice a normal quality of life for an event that is less likely to happen than being struck by lightning ten times in a row? I'm not. So that's a difference of opinion, then. Quote: I'd consider it way less "sick" to provide people with the means to properly defend themselves, instead of initiating somesort of totalitarian police state, stripping everyone of their liberties or just shrugging the whole thing of.
Well, I didn't suggest a police state or stripping everyone of their liberties or shrugging it off, did I?  I was predicting what would happen if you allowed concealed carry - and I'm very confident my predictions are accurate. I think I've made some good points and I'll leave it at that. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: But if the killer had decided to keep on firing right after the first two murders, the police still couldn't have stopped him. Concealed Carry would.
Quote: 'Don't worry kids, in the event of a school shooting, I'm also a trained gunman?' I'd find that way more reassuring than being at the mercy of a madman.
Quote: What kind of sick society is that? I'd consider it way less "sick" to provide people with the means to properly defend themselves, instead of initiating somesort of totalitarian police state, stripping everyone of their liberties or just shrugging the whole thing of. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Kenyon - Lord of the Dance
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Quote: The irresponsible inaction of the police to properly assess the situation and at least give out warnings after the first shooting took place has been a huge asset to the killer.
Agreed. But if the killer had decided to keep on firing right after the first two murders, the police still couldn't have stopped him. Bullets travel a lot faster than officers. Quote: Certainly not, but having just a handful of people armed makes a difference - even if this small group is solely comprised of teachers. You cannot make every student safe, but you can at least provide them with proper means to defend themselves - or at least arm the teachers, thus significantly increase security for the students as well.
Alright, so - arm the teachers. Put the protection of many in the hands of a few responsible people. We have a system like that, and it's called 'the police'. You can't just give a gun to teachers without teaching them to use it properly, and then your middle-aged English professor also happens to be trained in armed response. What kind of message are you putting out then? Eternal vigilance? 'Don't worry kids, in the event of a school shooting, I'm also a trained gunman?' What kind of sick society is that? This ain't the Wild West! No matter which way you spin it, that kind of increased security will always change a lot of things, usually for the worse. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Quote: 1. If guns were allowed, no 18-23 year old kid is going to carry a concealed weapon around campus every day. Certainly not, but having just a handful of people armed makes a difference - even if this small group is solely comprised of teachers. A gun free zone helped assuring the killer that his victims were going to be completely defenseless.
Quote: Think about it. How would you make every student safe? With metal detectors, police patrols in class, totalitarianism, even less liberty? You cannot make every student safe, but you can at least provide them with proper means to defend themselves - or at least arm the teachers, thus significantly increase security for the students as well. Also, this incident is a great example of how the reduction of certain liberties for security can have the exact opposite effect - and that you can't always rely on the feds to come and resolve such matters in time. The irresponsible inaction of the police to properly assess the situation and at least give out warnings after the first shooting took place has been a huge asset to the killer.
Quote: The blame for this lies with the health authorities who who refused to pick up on what his fellow students and teachers were telling them. I agree. A district court ruled that he presented "an imminent danger to self and others due to mental illness" which was necessary for a detention order and an evaluation by a state doctor. However, the psychatric hospital just put him on drugs and let him go. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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xAnAtOs - Student |
totally agreed with ken _______________ Brother to Luke Skywalker and (SKX) Dark Blade 
Lag Brother to Acey Spadey 
Jools is my best friend.
<Henkes> nebody feeling like abusing me with a lightsaber?|+Smilykrazy grabs Gradius, beats the living CRAP out of him, then throws him into a huge vat of ACID |
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Menaxia - Student
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Quote: I hadn't heard that he had been committed to an asylum, but assuming that's true, I don't care. I still blame him entirely, You can't. Because he was absolutely insane he was not in any frame of mind to control himself. He was not capable of making rational decisions - as evidenced by the content of his video blaming everybody else for what are very plainly his own acts. The blame for this lies with the health authorities who who refused to pick up on what his fellow students and teachers were telling them. _______________ This is not the place to look for me |
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SaZ - Student 
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this is madness! _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Kenyon - Lord of the Dance 
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Ash, my condolances. It's always a bit of a shock when you realise a nation-wide tragedy hits you much closer to home than you thought.
As for the gun debate: 1. If guns were allowed, no 18-23 year old kid is going to carry a concealed weapon around campus every day. 2. If guns were illegal, the shooter would have still gotten his hands on one. Think about it. How would you make every student safe? With metal detectors, police patrols in class, totalitarianism, even less liberty? What is needed is more understanding, observation and care of people's behavior from peers, etc, to prevent such (very sad) incidents. As sad as it is, the truth is that if someone wants to do something like this, they can. If someone is so determined to kill a bunch of innocent people that they are willing to give their own life for it, it is near impossible to stop them. Without having a 24/7 government issued babysitter following everyone around, it is impossible to stop some idiot from legally obtaining a gun, going into a crowded room, and firing away. That's the price of a democracy and living in an open society; you trade security for freedom. You're not totally secure nor will you ever be. Someone determined to kill, who doesn't care if they die, cannot be stopped. You think escalating this by having other students have concealed weapons would *solve* violence on campus? You know what escalation leads to? Instead of this asshole walking in with two handguns and killing 32 people and injuring 30 more, he drives a U-Haul full of fertalizer into a dorm and kills 320 and injures 300 more. How are you going to combat that? And as only someone who's been near a campus riot can say - I don't want ANY students with guns. |
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