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Cuthalion - Padawan  |
Quote: Communism, in essence, is not possible with a large group of people and has been tried over and over again. No government follows their ideal doctrine word for word and even Stalin could be said to have attempted communism.
Sure it might sound absurd, knowing the Soviet Union was anything but classless, but even the United States' democracy is not truly a democracy (we do not technically pick our presidents, we pick who picks our presidents. So in a sense we are a blend of democracy with a touch of aristocracy). I maintain my stance saying that it has been practiced many times. Complete failures that mutated into something else, but all governments fail to meet their doctrines word for word. P.S: If you want to put it like that, no government is truly practiced (besides maybe dictatorships). They are all interpreted by those who establish the government. Quote:
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Communism, in essence, is not possible with a large group of people and has been tried over and over again. No government follows their ideal doctrine word for word and even Stalin could be said to have attempted communism.
Communism needs capitalism to survive 
and actually communism is based on capitalism economy, at first... So yes government should have followed their ideal doctrine word for word... It was just hard to them to admit that they need capitalism... So they weren't real communists
That's why their attempts went all wrong
So there isn't any proves that actual communism can't work in concretely... So my stance stays... But yeah I did notice also this might be a opinion in question... It is hard to fight with opinions and It is actually stupid to argue with opinions over internet... Now P.S Dun Dun Dunnnnn!!!! Who gets the last word... I'm sure It is not me... Because Amik needs to say the last word  (yeah I know this is unfair!)
But still Amik is awesome person <3 Quote: I think what Maher and Amik were trying to suggest to us, through analogy, was that whether actual communism failed or a failed implementation of communism failed is probably just a matter of semantics much like whether the master/padawan titles appear as official. Right? If two students are successful in developing such a rapport, it is unlikely either will care if they are allowed to declare this as official. I suspect it would only matter if they are foolish enough to proceed and declare it as official, for then surely the Jedi Council would have to hunt them down and PWN them, thereby making it more like a Sith Coucil. However, much like communism or a failed implementation of communism, as we all know, a Sith Council is inevitably doomed to degrade into an Imperium and finally we will be able to lame other students without consequence. Unfortunately, for the time being, no laming………………………..asked and answered.
Well we shall start with Communism. Please continue. Also feel free to say anything you like. _______________ <MaherSenatu> guh... you are just... I'll keep sure that your kind of people will never be knights... <MaherSenatu> That's my mission... Master to Kain Sol |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student 
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Let's say you read a recipe on how to cook fish and you tried to cook fish with steak! You can't say Lenin and other communist leaders had no idea what communism was. They likely did, but couldn't meet all the prerequisites.
And Masta, I can't think of witty things to say so I just said the first thing I could. _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." This comment was edited by Augusta_Mintaka on Jan 17 2009 10:56pm. |
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SaZ - Student 
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that could happen coz of extremely big global catastrophy or something
So what's this global warming, what everybody are talking about... hmm ? according to some scientists the whole 'global warming' is a natural cycle of earth that is only affected by polution etc by like 5% or maybe even less. nature doesnt build utopia or dystopia for societies/ppl etc. nature ir just... natural and doesnt care for those retarded life forms also called humans. tho i might be wrong, but imo the real utopia or dystopia is something that is touched by humankind. and while humans change earth a lot, they dont bend it to their will or destroy it enough to be 'touched'. hm. Quote: and lets say that cook didn't know how to cook the steak... So what the hack he's trying for ?
why is he called cook in the first place? _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 10:54pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Quote: You can try to cook a steak in a refrigerator, but it isn't really plausible. In the same fashion the Soviet Union had tried to implement communism (at one point at least). I think people misinterpret me when I say try. Fair enough, but why infer about the possibility of cooking a steak via your inability to cook it in the fridge?
Oh and, i like Shar... except that he... hasn't talked to me in years. Bastard. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight 
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Quote: Nobody can master the art of multi-topic debating as Shar once had!
okey okey... Amik... I would rather use metaphora like you are trying to cook stake with frying pan and you miss the medium of it... 
yet the last result isn't a medium, you did over-cooked stake! and lets say that cook didn't know how to cook the steak... So what the hack he's trying for ? _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student
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Nobody can master the art of multi-topic debating as Shar once had! _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: that could happen coz of extremely big global catastrophy or something
So what's this global warming, what everybody are talking about... hmm ? _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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SaZ - Student 
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Quote: and Saz, if you think Utopia is impossible so is Dystopia! Which we are living at the moment...
good things can be better and bad things can be worse. thats why the ultimate 'goals' of utopia or dystopia can never be reached. we will always be in the middle, unless we are suddenly brought to lets say dystopia. that could happen coz of extremely big global catastrophy or something. then again after awhile people would get used to it and then ppl would think the obvious thing again 'it sux, but it could be worse'. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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Augusta_Mintaka - Student 
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Quote: Anyways.. moving on.
Amik, you say that Communism has been tried over and over again, and has failed everytime. First and foremost, you should be aware of the fact that Communism can only be put into practice under certain, specific conditions. Any country violating these integral conditions cannot, by definition, be possibly considered a Communism. In either case, there is a historical methodology called Historical Materialism, of which the most relevant part for us here is the natural development of history according to man's relations towards labour and nature, as per Locke. According to Communist Philosophy, this history follows a path whereby Communism can be realized at a sufficiently advanced stage. This stage presupposes Capitalism - not agrarianism, not primitivism or feudalism etc., but a well industrialized capitalist society harboring an extensively urbanized and well established Proletariat. This alone excludes pretty much any historical example of Communism you might be considering - Russia, China, Cambodia, etc. Besides that, a Communist revolution must be executed and led by the Proletariat (according to Marx), and have (according to Lenin) an intelligentsia acting on behalf of it. Again, this pretty much excludes every and all possible historical examples, with the sole exception of the October Revolution, which was almost undone by Lenin's NEP, and completely destroyed once Stalin came into power. Next thing to consider is that Communism, as outlined by Marx, is itself a classless, property-less, stateless system. Now, except maybe for pre-colonial African communities, none of the possible historical examples have met these conditions. Such a system presupposes the collective ownership of the means of productions; and under such a system, people don't really occupy 'jobs' in the capitalist sense, nor do they receive a 'wage'. They do not own property, nor do they own land, but rather work for the good of the community. Any agrarian society run by the state is therefore not a Communism. Anything 'run by the state' is not a Communism. Any system with a leader is not Communism. Anykind of system that has 'parties' or even a government, is by definition not a Communism. I can't say I have the passion to debate the topic further at the moment, but I could say I simply meant communism has been tried. I never said it was tried correctly, but tried nonetheless. You can try to cook a steak in a refrigerator, but it isn't really plausible. In the same fashion the Soviet Union had tried to implement communism (at one point at least). I think people misinterpret me when I say try. _______________ "Deos fortioribus adesse." |
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Maher - Jedi Knight 
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Quote: Next thing to consider is that Communism, as outlined by Marx, is itself a classless, property-less, stateless system.
While It is also outlined by Marx that all this stuff need more mutual sense rather than following blindly and slavely those guidelines...
It isn't going like ooooh you have two sacks of grain more than me... You need to give off that other one to me!!! Everybody are getting as much as what they are needing and nothing less or more
EDIT: and Saz, if you think Utopia is impossible so is Dystopia! Which we are living at the moment... _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Jan 17 2009 10:36pm. |
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SaZ - Student
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Quote: Different kind of economy? What economy does Africa run on, Saz? I'd be very interested to hear that one.
honestly - i have no idea. maybe i have, but im not one of those people who can say exact things, facts or remember every word of anything. doesnt matter what that is really... a conversation with friend, lyrics of a song or facts about some continents/countries economy. but if it was the same/simmilar to lets say european, we wouldnt have this conversation. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 10:27pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Different kind of economy? What economy does Africa run on, Saz? I'd be very interested to hear that one. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Lirael - Jedi Council 
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Edit: I just realised I'm repeating what Masta said.
In short the proles seem happily suppressed with their lottery tickets and double think. _______________ I can write my name with my sparkler. My sparkler > your lightsabre This comment was edited by Lirael on Jan 17 2009 10:23pm. |
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SaZ - Student
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im cruel i know.
but thats reality. as for giving africa as an example... you are giving an exreme example where absolutely different kind of society, economy etc exist. they are humans too, ofcourse. but you cant really compare uncomparable things. id say they would have found a way to progress if it werent for that fact that they know 'oh shit those guys at america land are much more rich'. ofcourse we will never know now. just think how lets say japan and... hmm germany? progressed to the state they are now. totally different paths that lead to something that is different yet simmilar. Quote: You clearly haven't clue who Marx was...
that is true, yes. then again i dont care that much. if i did id probably know everything about him. i just come to such 'illusions' from the thing you and other people said. as for utopia statement i think i didnt exactly meant marx himself. but the whole theories of him and a lot of other people as a whole. if they worked in real life i wouldnt even use word 'utopia' which is a synonym of impossible world for me. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 10:25pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council 
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Anyways.. moving on.
Amik, you say that Communism has been tried over and over again, and has failed everytime. First and foremost, you should be aware of the fact that Communism can only be put into practice under certain, specific conditions. Any country violating these integral conditions cannot, by definition, be possibly considered a Communism. In either case, there is a historical methodology called Historical Materialism, of which the most relevant part for us here is the natural development of history according to man's relations towards labour and nature, as per Locke. According to Communist Philosophy, this history follows a path whereby Communism can be realized at a sufficiently advanced stage. This stage presupposes Capitalism - not agrarianism, not primitivism or feudalism etc., but a well industrialized capitalist society harboring an extensively urbanized and well established Proletariat. This alone excludes pretty much any historical example of Communism you might be considering - Russia, China, Cambodia, etc. Besides that, a Communist revolution must be executed and led by the Proletariat (according to Marx), and have (according to Lenin) an intelligentsia acting on behalf of it. Again, this pretty much excludes every and all possible historical examples, with the sole exception of the October Revolution, which was almost undone by Lenin's NEP, and completely destroyed once Stalin came into power. Next thing to consider is that Communism, as outlined by Marx, is itself a classless, property-less, stateless system. Now, except maybe for pre-colonial African communities, none of the possible historical examples have met these conditions. Such a system presupposes the collective ownership of the means of productions; and under such a system, people don't really occupy 'jobs' in the capitalist sense, nor do they receive a 'wage'. They do not own property, nor do they own land, but rather work for the good of the community. Any agrarian society run by the state is therefore not a Communism. Anything 'run by the state' is not a Communism. Any system with a leader is not Communism. Anykind of system that has 'parties' or even a government, is by definition not a Communism. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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So now the people who can't even afford an adequate education and who have to occupy crappy jobs by necessity, apparently do not even possess the capacity of doing anything but those kind of jobs.
And i guess social mobility is so low because everyone's just too limited and stupid to get well paid jobs. I presume that inheriting a fortune and having extremly well connected parents is not a question of luck neither then, but has been achieved through hard work and 'smarts' by the person being born into the family. Thanks for the enlightenment, Saz. I'll make sure to tell the guys in Africa of your insights. That'll surely make them all wealthy and rich, but oh wait, they're probably 'too stupid to get proper jobs', right? _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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SaZ! Now you should catch about things before you starting to shoot with big guns
and Yes! Thinking with own brains is good... but when you are saying that Marx was just a guy with "awesome thoughts about utopia which cant happen in the real world." You clearly haven't clue who Marx was...
EDIT: *Some deletes* EDIT: Quote:
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think about it... why some people are able to get jobs and others dont? its based on their personality, ability, skills etc. So you want to tell me that people only 'choose' to occupy low-paid and crappy jobs, or get unemployed, because of their personality? Seriously? they dont choose. they are simply not eligible for that better job. if person dreams about something he cant really do it doesnt mean he should do if he had a chance (while still not being able to do it properly). face it - its all about dreams. and what if person is appropiate for a job? guess why a lot of ppl who have shitload of diploms have no jobs? finding a good job is a skill and ability too. they should actually teach that in universities tbh and give a diploma for that too. notice how smart people can get an extremely well paid job (not even a physical based one) without any diploma. cant be luck. luck only exist in dice based crap. you dont roll the dice if you want to get a better job. Saz... Seriously ? _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Jan 17 2009 10:00pm. |
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SaZ - Student
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think about it... why some people are able to get jobs and others dont? its based on their personality, ability, skills etc. So you want to tell me that people only 'choose' to occupy low-paid and crappy jobs, or get unemployed, because of their personality? Seriously? they dont choose. they are simply not eligible for that better job. if person dreams about something he cant really do it doesnt mean he should do if he had a chance (while still not being able to do it properly). face it - its all about dreams. and what if person is appropiate for a job? guess why a lot of ppl who have shitload of diploms have no jobs? finding a good job is a skill and ability too. they should actually teach that in universities tbh and give a diploma for that too. notice how smart people can get an extremely well paid job (not even a physical based one) without any diploma. cant be luck. luck only exist in dice based crap. you dont roll the dice if you want to get a better job. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 09:51pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Quote: think about it... why some people are able to get jobs and others dont? its based on their personality, ability, skills etc. So you want to tell me that people only 'choose' to occupy low-paid and crappy jobs, or get unemployed, because of their personality? Seriously? _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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SaZ - Student
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the marx communism?
in practical use individualism was always denied in attempts of communism. whether marx or anyone else said anything doesnt really matter. its the use in reality what matters. people can think of extremely brilliant and beautiful ideas... that dont work when you want to use them to control a big society. and tbh im not even very fammiliar with marx theories. i just think out of my head while i have the tries and fails of the obvious historical figures/groups of ppl/whatever/etc in my mind. also the common human psychology and how bigger groups of people work... which i think is more important in the whole politics things than some guys awesome thoughts about utopia which cant happen in the real world. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 09:44pm. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Saz, equality does not mean sameness. We all have more or less equal rights, but does that mean we're the same people?
In fact, economic equality, rather than to erode individualism, supports and encourages it, because it presupposes radical freedom - far more people would have the means to pursue whatever expressive activities, aesthetic pursuits or jobs they desire, without being constrained by financial matters. This type of freedom encourages individual self-expression far more than empty, illusory promises of capitalist meritocracy. Also, communism is stateless, so your other argument doesn't hold water. ofcourse it doesnt mean 'sameness'. however opportunities and anything else that is promoted to people in communism is based on individualism. think about it... why some people are able to get jobs and others dont? its based on their personality, ability, skills etc. one word - individuality. cheating this brings holes to the whole structure of society etc. communism wants to give something that would be like a bugfix to a faulty programming of a robot. people arent robos. bugfix just brings more errors and bugs to other members of the society or to the same members that get 'fixed' in the longer run. So Saz you prefered to ignore my answer ? _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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SaZ - Student
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Quote: Saz, equality does not mean sameness. We all have more or less equal rights, but does that mean we're the same people?
In fact, economic equality, rather than to erode individualism, supports and encourages it, because it presupposes radical freedom - far more people would have the means to pursue whatever expressive activities, aesthetic pursuits or jobs they desire, without being constrained by financial matters. This type of freedom encourages individual self-expression far more than empty, illusory promises of capitalist meritocracy. Also, communism is stateless, so your other argument doesn't hold water. ofcourse it doesnt mean 'sameness'. however opportunities and anything else that is promoted to people in communism is based on individualism. think about it... why some people are able to get jobs and others dont? its based on their personality, ability, skills etc. one word - individuality. cheating this brings holes to the whole structure of society etc. communism wants to give something that would be like a bugfix to a faulty programming of a robot. people arent robos. bugfix just brings more errors and bugs to other members of the society or to the same members that get 'fixed' in the longer run. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 09:33pm. |
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Masta - Jedi Council
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Saz, equality does not mean sameness. We all have more or less equal rights, but does that mean we're the same people?
In fact, economic equality, rather than to erode individualism, supports and encourages it, because it presupposes radical freedom - far more people would have the means to pursue whatever expressive activities, aesthetic pursuits or jobs they desire, without being constrained by financial matters. This type of freedom encourages individual self-expression far more than empty, illusory promises of capitalist meritocracy. Also, communism is stateless, so your other argument doesn't hold water. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: people want to have equal opportunities, but they also want individualism. these two things dont go well together.
Yeah that's also true... But that's also what Marx communism ideal doesn't denie... People are thinking indeed like communism is demanding some kind of super human powers, which doesn't notice the faults of humanity...  _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber |
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SaZ - Student
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Quote: Saz is right!
We don't have a clue, how much potential there would be in poor people, if they were educate right way, getting food as we do and have a some kind of roof, which covers them from the rain... i actually meant that if equallity is what this whole thing offers then those who didnt have opportunity will get it and those who had it before will have it limited, because of those who didnt. in the end half will be happy and half will be angry. but since the majority is poor people then the majority of people would be happy. sounds great, but there is a price. the development of the country lies in very educated people who believe in individualism. if that minority on which everything stands is being slowly destroyed by this 'equality' bullshit then obviously - country has no future. if they arent, they will definitely want to have influence on this dieing country, thus proposing the whole 'individualist' thing that the majority of people want. so there is bound to be conflict. conflict that is caused by communism ideas. while the main idea in the beginning was to avoid conflict. people want to have equal opportunities, but they also want individualism. these two things dont go well together. somehow this reminds me of movie 'equilibrium'. _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana This comment was edited by SaZ on Jan 17 2009 01:54pm. |
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Maher - Jedi Knight
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Quote: It almost seems to me as if you see communism as the realization of somekind of christian utopia, where everyone loves and cares about everyone else equally.
hah! You know what about Communism and Communists... other not-communist people are indeed seeing it as It is some kind of religion... Somebodies even try to adapt it to be perfect match with Christian lore... eg. Che is Jesus, Lenin is angel, Stalin is fallen-angel; The Satan, Bible is "Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong" - Little Red Book... Huh crazy and scary things... Saz is right! We don't have a clue, how much potential there would be in poor people, if they were educate right way, getting food as we do and have a some kind of roof, which covers them from the rain...
It is indeed easy to write these kind of things... House is warm and comfortable, my computer is working just fine, fridge is full of food...
EDIT: guh I didn't see that Saz was quoting Masta....So Saz and Masta are right _______________ Still here | My Lightsaber This comment was edited by Maher on Jan 17 2009 01:34pm. |
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