| Saberlocks... | |
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Lord Exar Kun - Student  |
Hey,
When dueling, it happens some times: a saberlock. And I ALWAYS loose them. But lately when I loose, people just stand and wait till I get up again, and than continue the fight. I wanted to see what your opinion is on this matter: chop your opponent in two peaces after winning a saberlock, or allow him to get up and than continue? Personaly, I like the last one better. After all, a saberlock doesnt require skill.... _______________ -Retired april the 19th 2004 |
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| Comments |
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MINDofSIN - Student 
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Hmm...to me it can sometimes be insulting when people DON'T attack me after a lock.
_______________ Jedi Academy Holocron http://jaholocron.ryanmh.com/ Why should our government send our soldiers to foreign soil to protect freedom of speech, when our freedom of speech is being taking away everyday by the same government. |
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Shannon -SC- - Student 
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Since i smash my mouse almost dead everytime in a saberlock I seem to win almost all.S
Some times I will attack after it, sometimes I won't cuz i think it won't succede. I don't really think it is respectfull not to attack after you knocked someone down after a saberlock. It just shows that you think you're superior and you won't need it. OR of course thats your opinion of a 'fair' fight. But let me tell you, there is no 'fair' fight. A fight is about to win, and to get better. If the opponent doesn't press you and you're not pressed to give your best you won't improve. As for those who say there is no skill in winning a saber lock, I wonder why are those who loose are often those who say it's easy to win? As for no striking defensles ppl: So you want to play fair, but only what you think of fair. What will you do after I do a ydfa or rdfa? Wait till I get up and play 'frogger' again or strike me. If you strike me where is the difference? I can't move, i'm defenseless, and thats for sure it does not take more skill to slash at someone who did a dfa than knocking down a oponent in saberlock. Sorry for any spelling mistakes, since english is not my native language, but i think i made my point clear. _______________ Falling from heaven is not as painfull, as surviving the impact. This comment was edited by Shannon -SC- on Feb 04 2003 05:07pm. |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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yep it's all about tolerance... since we all have our own opinions we have to respect each other's views. if you hit me when i'm down, fine. but i won't do it to you (after saber locks). at least i'll try not to coz usually i go ballistic on my mouse and then it's rather hard to control my movements right afterwards...  _______________ make install -not war |
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ioshee - Student 
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I wanted to bring this issue back to the surface because it has recently come up on the servers again (for me anyway.)
I had not been hitting people after a saber lock for some time. Then a teacher I greatly respect saw me back away after winning a saber lock in his class. He told everyone that you should strike after a saber lock, because you have earned it. Now I know that many people think that winning a saber lock requires no skill, but he pointed out that killing someone with two red slashes requires no skill under that logic. After that, a knight I REALLY respect told me that it lacked honor when I hit him after a saber lock. I know he really didn’t mind but he believed that it lacked honor. In that logic, I think that MOST of the Red stance lacks honor. A lot of you I’m sure would disagree, and I hope that’s ok. That we disagree I mean. I think it comes back to what Ulic said about tolerance. I don’t like getting killed by people who switch to red and then squat down and spin in place while whacking my ankles, but I tolerate it. I tolerate it because if I ask them to stop, and they do, then I will never learn how to defend against it. I hardly ever get hit after a saber lock that I lose because I have learned to defend against it. Now, if you REALLY don’t want me to hit you after a saber lock I will tolerate that. But then I’ll ask you to duel with your saber put away. Just kidding. I will not attack you after a saber lock and I will ask for nothing in return. Just don’t be mad at me please. I want to be your friend. _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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Master Lew - Student 
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Quite an interesting discussion. To hit or not to hit, that is the question.
In Tae Kwon Do, which I teach, hitting an opponent when they are down is part of the finishing move. You have created the opportunity to knock them down and controlling the aggression by using a finishing move. Depending on the circumstances, you will either run away, restrain them, or incapacitate them. Using the above analogy: JK2 is just a game with the end result of a duel being that one of the duelers died. Knowing this is the outcome of a duel, taking advantage of every opportunity that you create or that is given to you, should be exploited. You can't be restrained in a duel, so that option is out. I have never seen a duel end after someone was knocked down after a saber-lock, so that option of running away is out. So that leaves incapacitation. Hit them with your best shot. You might not get another chance.
P.S. There is a skill move to neutralize a saber-lock and not get knocked down. I know it and will leave it up to you to discover it, for now. Later on I will share it.
_______________ Brick Assassin for Hire Here, have a brick! 
This comment was edited by Master Lew on Jan 16 2003 10:00pm. |
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Acey Spadey - Student 
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I doubt i'm that skilled with button mashing that i would win every saber lock, but allow me to recount i dual i had only a day ago. In the Matrix room, another learner and I started out duals, we were both down on shields and about 80 and 60 health each, me being on the lower that's when we met in a saber lock, and of course i mashed the button as fast as i could, and won the saberlock, and of course there was a down slash at him, which was from me mashing so hard, i'm not sure if there is a definate way to guess when a saber lock is down, but i'm not going to stop mashing till some one has won the lock, and when it is won, i'm pushing the button at least a few times more..not deliberately, it just happens. but that wasn't the end of the battle, he jumped straight up after i had hit him upon the ground and we were straight into yet another saber lock which lasted quite some time. some people watching thought it was just one long one, but we got into 2 saber locks so quickly it seemed seemless...oh yeah..he won the second one and on his down stroke, killed me. My opinion is that it was a great dual. i like saber Locks for their appearance as well. cause people watching a dual don't want to watch a match that lasts a few seconds, i want to see a match with everything. Also, me and another jedi thought we would stage out fight, to make it look good. we weren't showing off or anything, we were just trying to make it more fun. we did everything. and stayed in blue stance to make it last longer, we had a saber lock and every now and then taunted each other during it. so that's my opinion and i'll shut up now.. _______________ .Lag Bro to Xanatos. Adopted Twin to Bubu. Big-Brother to SmilyKrazy ---- JATSRAD Guru, JASE Member, JA SP Mod Staff ---- The Order of the Stick -- Big thanks to Mango for my avatar -- Quote: Sometimes you've got to specifically go out of your way to get into trouble. It's called fun.
Quote: (Random hella old quote) <Fizz of Belouve> .. in sovjet russia, cereals spit at YOU!
Quote: whats the point of growing up, if your not allowed to act childish!
Padawan - Henkes
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Da_Man - Ex-Student 
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In this post there have been some excellent and very valid points made, but basically it comes down to your personal oppinion. Me, I find it is imparitive *wonder if I spelled that right* to ask my opponents if they have any restrictions for the duel, then we go from there. I find that this gets to be a great way to know a persons stlye and the hidden little weaknesses , then if needed I can use it to my advantage. Plus it also helps to get to know people and gain respect in the eyes of the ones that surround you. To me any rules are fine, it helps me to find my little weaknesses and rid myself of them. So if you see me on a server and want to duel, any type of duel, just let me know. |
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Jedi-In-Training - Ex-Student |
I work on simple logic...
I let anyone do whatever they want, because i know it does take a level of skill to whack someone after downing him if he holds crouch to jump up quickly(i nvr could do it ). I would simply act cool, down the opponent, then backflip and wait for him to stand up. As i wait, i swing my red stance once to make it look like the movies, i nod when he gets up and i charge, simple as that.
I do not saber after the opponent is down not because i think it is cheap, but because i think it takes less skill than a normal duel, and i want to learn about normal duels more at this time of my learning, so when i master normal duels, i'll consider this issue again |
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Lord Exar Kun - Student 
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heh, I was going to delete this post, guess I better let it stay for a while.. _______________ -Retired april the 19th 2004 |
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Rahn del Sol - Student 
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Ulic, your idea of respecting someone and mine can be completely different, and we'll still fit in this Academy just fine.
As I stated in another post...I don't roleplay the noble jedi, and I don't roleplay the evil sith. I just play the game. In fact, you can look at attacking while someone is down as a measure of respect too. :p I respect every opponent's ability to get right back up and beat me, so I'd better take any chance to win that I can
If someone sets the expectation before the duel that there will be no such attacks...I'll go along with it. I do think, however, that it's damaging to shelter yourself from certain gameplay tactics. After all, we're here to learn how to play JK2, above anything else. Most of us wind up using the Academy servers as a casual place to play, where we know we don't have to compete with anyone...and that's okay. But the number one priority of the Academy is learning...and if you never fight without these artificially constructed rules, then you'll never learn as much as you could. _______________ http://steamcommunity.com/id/citizen059 |
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Bubu - Hubbub
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charon don't worry. i don't even remember this incident. 
i forgot to mention perhaps, that i don't really care whether you hit me or not when i'm down. but i won't hit you, that's all. i don't take offense. i don't even view it as a cheap move i'm just trying to satisfy everyone...
this being said, may the force be with you all! _______________ make install -not war |
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Charon - Ex-Student 
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Ahh, Ulic, forever my verbal challenge, it seems. ;> Still my friend, as well.
Yes, there are rules against firearms in the Academy, and I'm all for that. Yes, it is also explicity stated that you will respect everyone in the Academy, and out of hundereds of students, I can say with confidence most of us not only abide by that, but love it, help enforce it, and appriciate it. However, does respecting your opponent mean go easy on him? I for one, will answer with a resounding "No". My opponent is as dangerous as I. Percieved or not, to hold back is an insult to his ability. I don't downstrike 100% of the locks I win, not even 50% but that's not because I either think it's cheap, or am holding back. It's because I don't allways think it will succeed. My opponents are worthy of my full ability, not targets for every free hit I can gain. My opponents are worthy of being considered dangerous, not so far beneath me that I do not honour them. My opponents are a challenge to me, not my enemies. My opponents are the Academy, the Academy are my friends. I hope this distinction is apparent. Bubu, earlier this week I took a strike after downing you in a duel. I do apologise for offending you, but I cannot apologise for the move itself, as I've said before, I hope you do it to me sometime, if you think I'm good enough to warrant it. I do not ask or allow this out of your sense of revenge, or as my apology. I hope this distinction is also apparent. Ulic, you're a strong debator, and without your input, I may have never been able to voice my views on this. A fine Jedi Consular you've become. I am happy, at least between the two of us on this subject, to submit the conclusion of a draw. Your point is well made in my eyes, and in no way incorrect, but I must also humbly put forth that my views are equally as valid. --Charon _______________ spirit's searing pain battlefield of broken glass fallen speak to me --Charon This comment was edited by Charon on Jan 15 2003 07:56am. |
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Bubu - Hubbub
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master, you seem to have mastered the art of persuasion...
if you strike your opponent when he is down, he might not care at all, but he might also lose some respect for you. if you don't strike, you can only gain respect from him... so if you look at it like that, which option is better? _______________ make install -not war |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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Well Rahn...
What if I said I'm no Jedi either, and that I'll just rocket you whenever, wherever I see you? Wouldn't like that? I'll rephrase all that you posted. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a reason that rockets were put into the game. The one hit by a rocket is at a major disadvantage in health. The purpose of the rocket is to give his opponent a powerful weapon in which to strike. I attack with rockets. Plain and simple. If you think that makes me a bad person, and you want to refuse to fight me...hey, that's your call, and your opinion. My opinion will be that you take it just a little too seriously. I'm no Jedi. >>>>>>>>>> So why shouldn't I do this, Rahn? Because the rules say "No guns in temple?" The rules also say to respect other players. I read your exam, and am tempted to state how you answered in terms of what rule you felt most important. But you know what you wrote, I know what you wrote. We'll leave it at that, and take a look at how that last post doesn't flow right with the answer you gave. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. This comment was edited by Ulic Belouve on Jan 14 2003 08:15pm. |
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Rahn del Sol - Student 
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There is a reason that saberlocks were put into the game.
The loser of a saberlock is at a temporary disadvantage. The purpose of that disadvantage is to give his opponent a brief window in which to strike. I attack. Plain and simple. If you think that makes me a bad person, and you want to refuse to fight me...hey, that's your call, and your opinion. My opinion will be that you take it just a little too seriously. I'm no Jedi. I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions. _______________ http://steamcommunity.com/id/citizen059 |
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Ulic Belouve - Student
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I really don't want there to be an issue as to whether these things are right or wrong, unless the Council or someone wants to decide it.
I look at it to give the analogy to smoking. I don't smoke. Other people love to smoke. I can nail them over the head with the smoking-is-bad idea, and they can come back with the "I can do what I want", or other decent arguments. So the issue will never be won. Now, if I went to a smoker's house, and they lit up, I could express how I don't like to be around smokers, because of views on second-hand smoke (I'm not really like this, but bear with). I'm merely asking them to cut it out when I am present with them. They can do two things: 1. Put out the cigarette. 2. Take a deep draw on the cigarette, and puff it in my face, telling me where to shove it. Is either one better? No. But, if you puff smoke in my face, chances are I won't come over anymore. And that just sucks. For you and me. So....to place this back to the saber-lock thing: Is it right? Maybe, has good arguments. Is it wrong? Maybe, has good arguments. But if I say I don't like you to do it to me (I suck at saber locks, never won), you can again do two things: 1. Say, "OK, no problem" 2. Knock me down from saber-lock, saber me, and spam DEATH FROM ABOVE!!! Which is better? Again, really, none. But if you do option 2, I might not come back on if you're around. Or I won't fight you. And that just sucks. Again, for you and for me. And maybe other people that you do this to. Really, most friends, if I ask them to put out their cigarette, they will. BUT, I don't do it in the "I wish you piece of crap would put out that cancer stick, I don't want to cough up my lung like you do." So it goes both ways. Ask nicely for opponent not to do it. If you are asked not to do it, honor their wishes. If you REALLY can't win against them if you honor their wish, then come find me or some other JAK/JAT/JAC, and we can teach you some good stuff. Hell, I made it to Knight without ever striking a downed opponent. Chances are you can too. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. This comment was edited by Ulic Belouve on Jan 14 2003 05:14pm. |
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Charon - Ex-Student 
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Ulic makes a fair point regarding an opponent downed after a saber lock being unprepared, but I see it this way.
If your opponent were allways prepared, you would never land a strike. Jedi are warriors who prefer taking the peaceful option whenever possible,like any good warrior. Jedi are not preachers with weapons, and this seems all to often forgotten by Jedi and their enemies alike. The battle of Endor; Darth Sidious was defeated only by the treacherous act of his apprentice Darth Vader. Vader, by changing his loyalites, outnumbering his opponent, and striking from behind to throw the Emporer into the reactor, became Jedi Anakin Skywalker once again. The way of combat is the way of deception. Forgoing an initial attack to ensure a dueling opponent is prepared for combat is honourable, blatantly ignoring an advantage, especially one you've gained through your own abilities, is folly. Yes, I strike after winning saber locks on occasion. Perhaps next time that same opponent will win and do the same to me, good, he's earned it. --Charon _______________ spirit's searing pain battlefield of broken glass fallen speak to me --Charon |
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SilkMonkey - Distributor of Cold Ones 
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I dont hit after a saberlock. I usually just back away and bow. Unless they tried to kill me before when i was down. Then they get what they give. _______________ |-HK-47 -SilkMonkey: You are receiving a warning for being_too_sexy. If you do not stop, action will be taken against you.|| (11:13:43) � Virtue dances for Silk ||Smiling owner of Smilykrazy's 6000th comment =) ||Odan Wei's Proud Big Brother|| Janus is my official TaruTaru Cuddly Animal Type Person. ||(@Virtue) Or you could just be a man and set fire to your genitals.....you won't fall asleep for days after that.......trust me.||Thomas Skywalker er for sexy for sitt eget beste!!!!| Not changing sig until the JA loosens up. (Started: Aug 31, 2005) |
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Sniya - Student 
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mabey a better definition is little skill-press mousebotton 1 like mad!!!!
_______________ The real question is not whether machines think but whether men do. Bertrand Russell http://www.thejediacademy.net/forums_detail_page.php?f_id=970 |
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ioshee - Student
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First of all I love saber locks for the cinematic value it adds to the game if nothing else and I really hope they don't disable it on the academy servers. (No offence Bubu.)
Second I don't like attacking an opponent that was knocked down from a saber lock. I agree with what Ulic has stated on this thread and others regarding that issue. Those things being said, I just want to say that I think it is a little narrow minded to say that winning a saber lock takes no skill. Please, before you take offence let me explain (I don't always win saber locks by the way.) What is the definition of skill? True one definition states that skill is the "ability to use one's knowledge effectively in doing something." I will agree that winning a saber lock is not about using knowledge effectively, however another definition states that skill is a "developed or acquired ability." I would think that most everyone could not argue that pressing a button fast is an ability however "lame" it may seem. Yet another definition says that skill is "dexterity" which is "skillful and competent with the hands." (I know that is sorta’ circular defining but hey that's Webster for you.) The point I’m trying to make is that the word skill can be defined a few different ways. Pressing a button fast does basically come down to physical skill. It is about the only physical skill in the whole game so I can see why it is singled out, but lets at least be fair to our fellow humans with extra-ordinary button pressing speed ability. They are people too. That is all. Peace. _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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Ah...
The great discussion. I'll quote Jedi Lore: "NEVER STRIKE AN OPPONENT WHO IS UNPREPARED. Even an armed opponent may not be ready for an assault, so the Jedi customarily indicate battle readiness either with a formal salute or by adopting an "on guard" stance...a Jedi that attack against an unprepared opponent is taken as a sign of desperation. This provides a good reason to end the duel, before someone gets hurt." So, interpret as you wish. I just see where, again, for Jedi-in-practice, you don't strike when down. Unless you want it to be a sign of desperation. Another quote: "NONLIGHTSABER TACTICS ARE CONSIDERED FAIR GAME Lightsaber combat involves more than simply exchanging blows. Jedi frequently employ bantha rushes, disarms, knockdowns, and trips, though grapples are generally frowned upon. Attacking an opponents lightsaber (ed: the hilt) is a gross sign of disrespect, since it damages the personal property of a fellow Jedi. Consequently, few Jedi resort to this tactic even in life-or-death struggles (except against Dark Jedi)." So it seems as though such tactics as the saber-lock-strike were not allowed with the Jedi. Not in accordance with the Jedi Code, etc. BUT...I just leave this lore open for your interpretation. In my opinion, if you care for it, I likewise see where Kick-DFA has some skill involved, yet draws on the area of striking an unarmed/unprepared opponent. It's sorta grey. The saber lock strike, takes no skill, and still hits on the area of striking an unarmed/unprepared opponent. That's clearly against the Jedi code. So my opinions draw on the Jedi lore. You can reject the lore and do what feels "fun", or you can live withing the lore and have more fun. I find that living withing the constraints of the Jedi make the game more fun. You have to take the good stuff of the Jedi (sabers and force), along with the bad (rules, responsibility, and public service). Really, sabers and Force are the bottom two aspects of being a Jedi. You have to want to be a Jedi even if you can't have a saber or Force. That's how I feel, that's how I hope my Padawan feels, and that's how I hope many others feel. The saber and Force are tools for the responsibility, self-discipline, and the public service that are the true esssence of the Jedi. But I'll let you all sort it out. Any questions on lore, let me know. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Silencio - Student 
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you press like a maniac on attack1 and your "force push" buttons. _______________ Second-in-command of the mighty FiZZsters |
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Gabba - Ex-Student 
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how do you win saber locks anyhow?
_______________ Sit vis nobiscum. |
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Lord Exar Kun - Student 
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oh, sh00t, then I'll delete it... _______________ -Retired april the 19th 2004 |
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Bubu - Hubbub
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this is not a new topic. people have been letting their opponents up lately, because they read all those posts left on the forums about the subject.
i also let my opponent get up after locks, because of the no-skill thing. sometimes it even earns me a bow... _______________ make install -not war This comment was edited by Bubu on Jan 14 2003 04:10am. |
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