| Personal Attacks | |
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Ulic Belouve - Student  |
I have found that in my recent posts, I have provided rational arguments with a fair amount of solid grounding. These are on such issues as specific JAT actions, general JAT actions, and the war in Iraq.
In each of these discussions, the resulting counter-arguments have been kept mainly to personal attacks against myself. I find that apparently, many of you who feel you have more power, do not like to be proven wrong or questioned, despite the intelligence of my arguments. It should be noted, as reflected by some of the comments, however, that most of these intelligent arguments are not my own arguments. They instead are taken from reputable sources, and merely put together with my own little spin on the topic, for what it is worth. If people think I am an ass for having someone or something more reputable bring up an argument, than that is that. I don't make myslef out to be intelligent, I just know where to find and how to use intelligent sources. If people hate me because I bring an outside intelligent source to the discussion, then that's your shallow opinion. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the intelligent source that I am using is myself. I think that if I bring hard outside evidence to a table, instead of making myself look like a fool by using my own intellegince, I am not arrogant, but wise. So again, it seems as though people simply hate losing an argument, or having a hard fight ahead of them in it. It is said that in a disfigured society, the one with an unscarred face is ugly. I have also found that in an ignorant society, the one with intelligence is the idiot. Perhaps that is what has happened here. I am sorry that I attempted to use my tools of intelligence to argue valid points. I am even more sorry that many cannot refute intelligently, and must reduce things to their lowest denominator, and attack the author of the argument personally. I have found such personal attacks carrying over into gameplay, which makes it unpleasant to play. I did find it enjoyable to join as a different name, with the impression that I was an initiate. I even took a class and fooled an instructor into thinking I was an initiate. The change was great. These issues, along with others that have been brewing, have caused me to draft up a request to resign from the Academy. I have not yet gone forward with the request, as I have hope left, however small. I do find it repulsive that first I stick up for my Padawan, and get attacked for that. Then I qustion the JAT, and get attacked for that by JATs. Then I refute the JATs views, with some decent argument. Then people think I hate the JATs, and start attacking me. And the thread gets shut down. So I take the suggestions and argue politics in a separate thread. However, when I do that, and introduce outside evidence that is credible, I still get attacked personally. And this is the internet, but is not a public forum, but a private one. Each member subscribed to some form of respect, and while you are entitled to feel that I am arrogant in using sources outside my own head, I feel it is still wrong to violate that respect issue so easily, both here and in-game. I did wish to benefit the Academy with my wisdom, intellect, and ability to make good points, yet I see that they are not welcome. The Council even wished to provide me more tools to better help the Academy in these areas, yet I feel that again, this help will not be welcome. I spend enough time arguing among intellectuals who are not my friends. I merely thought that I could make valid points with friends, but apparently there are few here. It was stated that “Knights are the most respected student position in the Academy. Their fellow Academy members should treat them as such.” Yet I feel we are far from this. If you are truly the bunch that can only attack opposing arguments by attacking the person, then I do not wish to be a Knight, representing the elite that the Academy has to offer. I have no qualms about departing an Academy that has members like this. But if the members are truly of better sorts than this, I may consider staying. As such, I have left this open for discussion. If you truly wish to personally attack me again, post here, and there will be no more trouble for you, for the thread will be gone as well as myself. I am truly sorry I brought my wisdom into the Academy. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. This post was edited by Ulic Belouve on Jan 22 2003 07:30pm. |
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| Comments |
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ioshee - Student 
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Cool. Friends don't let friends post drunk, or umm tippsy. Now can someone lock this awesome thread (after Ulic gets the last word of course.) _______________ One of the Belouve boys |
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Gabba - Ex-Student 
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Not quite how it was ment or said fizz, anyhow ive apologised for the comment to Ulic and im hopeing the matter between me and him can be laid to rest,
Now back to harming this cat(just like little boys do) _______________ Sit vis nobiscum. |
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Fizz of Belouve - Student 
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that's a pity, gabba.
I haven't read every _single_ post on those threads, but I can tell, claiming my super-genious friend sais this-and-that is the way little boys discuss. no offense to anybody, but this is a forum, where not everything is eaten as hot as it is cooked. therefore, always try to read between the lines to get a sense of how serious someone means his/her post; and try not to pick on her/him. _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
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Gabba - Ex-Student
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Fair enough, i can (and im shure others will as well)live with that.
right just spent a morning building databases, im hungover very badly, and my m8 just failed his final year at college, im going outside to pick on small animals _______________ Sit vis nobiscum. This comment was edited by Gabba on Jan 28 2003 05:09am. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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OK,
I will try to cover everything here, and this will be my last post concerning this issue. If you don't feel closure from this, talk to me privately. As some have pre-empted me, yes, because I am choosng Padawans, I am remaining at the Academy. But bear with me as I address some things. First off, I think that what I discovered was that I become more bold and/or abrasive when I have a little bit of alcohol in me. I've noticed that as I rebound from the drinking, I sorta rush into things headlong. As such, I wasn't "drunk" with the first run-in against Zero, where I stood up for my Padawan. But I was on the way back from being a little tipsy. As such, I approached it in too bold and abrasive of a fashion. I do, however, feel that I was right in my theory and feelings on the matter, just that I approached them wrong from the start. That opened up a can of "trash salad", and the thread was closed. I deleted my original post, so it all went away. I am usually VERY scarce with apologies, so mark this in history or something. I apologize for approaching the Zero situation in the wrong way. He had gotten semi on my nerves earlier, and I had added that to the conflict at hand then. It was not a thing that I normally do, but it is still needed for me to apologize on that matter. As for the continiation of attacks over the Iraq thread, I think that many people were still wearing the same goggles from the Zero conflict, and were looking at things in the same negative way, and looking at me in the same negative way. I apologize, but again, only for the Zero conflict, as I made you guys put on those "goggles", and then you didn't remove them to look at a completely different issue. So, I made the bad move to begin with, but many of you let that issue stick, and carry its mud into other areas. As for some of the discussions in the Iraq thread. I have spent a lot of time in study on really, that specific area, of war. I have written research on war doctrine, working with generals, and with some of the top researchers from the Air Force Doctrine Center. I worked personally with the top two researchers, and the Dean of Research there. I later submitted my final product to them. As such, I think I deserve to feel as though I have skill in these areas, and I have only learned more since then. I do think that the conflict resulted as what Buzz Vader stated, is that one side might (MIGHT) not have had a strong argument once I entered the fray, and took a side. As for commenting on the validity of the counter-arguments, you may have experience as well, like Gabba claims, but it was not illustrated. It may have been a type of thing where you make a good point, but don't back it up real well. I think (I didn't look back) that that was the case with Gabba. He made a sound opinion, but really left it at that and did not elaborate. Thus, as per some of my learning, I challenged the fact that it was not elaborated upon, and thus considered it "any old opinion". There are a lot of things that are out there on both sides, that should have something to back them up. I could say "we have to use force because Iraq is a HUGE threat." Which is true, but I would PROBABLY want to back that up more. I have no doubt now that Gabba probably had some way to back that up, but he didn't really illustrate that. I just now looked back, and the issue was that he was trying to argue against the thought of Israel’s deputy chief of mission at the UN, which, like I said, probably would take some backing up to do. I don't think I was being arrogant, but I don't think anyone at this site, including me, is qualified to refute a guy like that. So you need to back it up. The REAL problem is that once challenged on that point, Gabba reatiliated with the "my psychologist buddy thinks you are arrogant." Which in my opinion is a low blow. Very low. And then, it didn't help that others still had on the "goggles" from the Zero conflict. So, perhaps I am arrogant and scarce with apologies, but I do not feel I was in error in the issue with Iraq, and with anything against Gabba. I simply wanted him to build something better if he was going to refute a highly-qualified source, such as using other highly qualified sources. But enough on the issue. I will call it a truce, not apologizing. I think the "psychologist" thing was as much, if not more, of an error. As such, I am remaining at the Academy. I would, however, like an agreement or understanding that generally, I do take a lot of time to craft what I say (I am also a published writer in non-political stuff). So, I do try to make sound input, and use other sources if I can. That's just how I make a case. I don't really mean to make people bend to my viewpoint, but I simply put things out there in a decent manner. I think we can all live with that. We live with the dumb comments (sometimes funny too), so we have to live with the "smart" comments. Not that I'm smart, but, well, you get it, that it's a "well-thought-out-or-constructed" comment, or a "well put" comment. Either way, I will live with what you guys are, good and bad. If I have to, I'll just avoid people. And there are some that I will avoid for a while. But I hope we can all just get along. And think that takes care of all of it. So what are you reading this for? I said I am done, you can do something else now. Fine, keep reading, I'm leaving....  _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Kalheka - Student 
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Rahn you rock dude LOL  _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Fizz of Belouve - Student
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/me is rolling on the floor laughing his Arse off
I didn't get ur point, though; on second thought, I think _that_ was the point. w00t ! _______________ One of the Belouve boys, founder of the mighty FiZZsters Midbie council #20 - Fizz - #1933 - Jan '03 - Aug '04 "Renfield, you idiot!" |
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Rahn del Sol - Student 
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"The Cold War's over, Austin."
"Well, finally those capitalist pigs will pay for their crimes, eh? Eh, comrades? Eh?" "Uh, Austin...we won..." "Oh, smashing, groovy, yay Captialism!" _______________ http://steamcommunity.com/id/citizen059 |
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Gabba - Ex-Student 
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im proberly that last person that should make a comment on this thread, but i read some of your posts and i feel i have to make some comment as i am one of the ones Ulic is complaining about.
I made a comment after Ulic's first post on the war with Iraq, it was im afraid a informed comment, not a comment made by someone sitting on his arse worrying about loss of life or the cost of a war on my pocket. I happen to be a active member of the Socialist Worker Party and we have been activly campaining against war since noises were made about Iraq. This may not make me as informed as some, but i am informed. The comment i made was small and did not carry the weight that Ulic's post did, for me and a lot of others it still was a valid point, i dident expect you to agree with it, you were clear were you stood on the issue. what i dident expect was comments about me reading over the long words, and the sigh at the begining, and the "not just any old opinion". I did find that offensive Ulic, prehaps if you were nicer in you dismissal of my comment it wouldent have come to this. i have many freinds who value my opinion when its asked for, if they do not ask i dount give it, what would the point be in that. But i do know i am well read, well informed and i do not make a comment unless i feel i can at least say something that would be usefull to the debate. I feel that a apology for my freinds comments on you might be in order,I apologise for posting the comment, but i will stand by my own convictions about you. You can leave the Academy if you want, personly i do not see the need for such drastic mesures, but if thats your choice then go for it, prehaps study should come first anyhow(thats the teacher in me talking). but if you do stay i will debate you again if we disagre, and i will use the power of reserch and my experiance in politics(8 years now) to give you a good debate. i just somehow feel that the type of debate it would turn into dose not belong on this forum. Carefully cansider your choice, you do have freinds on this server and from what i see they want you to stay. you and me i feel would never get on, but who cares and anyway i could be wrong. i have made freinds with people in the USAF on other servers, even when we have heated threads and our opinion's are so far apart we might as well be on diffent sides of the house. Any disagrement on this forum will never carry on to the servers or IRC with me, i hope you and all that read this post will understand that, i for one just think that is takeing it to far. _______________ Sit vis nobiscum. |
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Kalheka - Student
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I want to take this chance to at least partially agree with Zero and Buzz.
I've seen that you do research and prepare when you decide to put in your two cents on a topic of discussion, and that I respect. Like I said before this, I don't have a personal problem with you Ulic. I don't want to see you leave the Academy. When I began my input on this thread, it was in the hope of showing you that your choice of words and some of your actions were easy to interpret as arrogant, etc. None of my posts were intended as attacks towards you, and I hope you see that. Seeing as how your looking for another padawan in another thread, I believe you have opted to stay, and for that I am glad. Good luck in your search for a new padawan, and your search for personal growth. Hope to see you on the servers  _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Zero Akaine - Student 
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I for one am glad that ppl stoped attacking Ulic for bringing this topic up. i know how hard it can be to stand up for what you think and be attacked by every one that thinks your roung.
Ulic i am rely glad whth the way you have handeled this and have seen you melo out ( these might be a poor chose of words). I relly hope you dont leave for reson that are my own. i dont rely want to post them here but they are good resons. I would also like you congradulate you on your padawans promotion. you tought him well. As for some of the ppl that made coments on this thred about what Ulic had to say, he is not roung. His arugment was a good one and was well presented. Althought it might have seemed like he had a very arigent tone when doing so i dont think he ment it (i dont rely know this for shure but hope i am right(agan might be a bad chose of words in this little ()thingy's.)) Ulic keep up the good work and i hope to see you around the servers some time. _______________ Padawan of Ryo Akaine Master to Aphex,Skyler,Doppelganger, and GremReaper. This comment was edited by Zero Akaine on Jan 26 2003 01:23pm. |
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Buzz - Student 
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I read most of Ulic's post and bits and pieces of a few of the comments here. I don't really have the time to go through each and every one of them. This however is a classic argument especially on the internet. Someone brings up a topic that has two or more sides to it. You've got people voicing their reasons for why they like this or that, getting into it with eachother. Unfortuneately these people only have half truths and partial arguments; they don't know everything about the topic they are arguing about. Then along comes the person that knows about the subject, has valid information, logical reasons for his stance. Now that side has the advantage, the people for it have their support bolstered. If there was someone on the other side with just as well versed on the subject it wouldn't be as bad, but that doesn't always happen.
Now it breaks down. The side without a strong argument is backed into a corner. So they resort to the only thing left to them, they can't defend their points anymore, so let's attack the person that it comes from. Also remember that the majority of the people here are likely under 20. This isn't meant to insult anyone though. Most kids are rather immature especially when arguments occur and the insults start to fly. There are also some adults this way as well. I'd say the percentages are flipped though. So the attacks will happen and they are usually childish and petty and have nothing to do with the entire argument. Its rather sad when a discussion turns into a name calling fest but it happens. Just try not to let it happen. Its not a life or death situation and usually when you start to attack someone you make your side look worse because then you'll get the generalization that people who think about the topic the same as you are uninformed and petty. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Sared - Retired 
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I have remained silent in one too many of these.
I do so with good reason. Simply, I am here to play. If I even WANTED to flame or get flamed (both of which I try to avoid doing) then I can log onto a discussion/debate forum. Why am I here? Because a friend of mine was searching 'JO Games' on Google and got me stuck here I looked and I liked what I saw. The sense of acceptance and community here is something that I have rarely seen on the 'net.
LucasArts Entertainment Company: note the middle word, ENTERTAINMENT. The Jedi Academy and all that revolves around it is based off of a game released for entertainment. It has done an incredible job of bringing those that know and love the game together. The core of this is that one should not post a comment on a real world situation/event and worry about getting flamed. Instead, one should rest at ease knowing that if they want to chill out with some friends and have fun, they are more than welcome here. I remember when I first joined, I logged into mIRC and met DJ. For no reason whatsoever we got to talking about 'net connections and server specs....you know, 'net geek stuff. In any case, I was welcomed, not only in the chat but also on the servers. I know I have met less that half of the students here, even in passing, and I have really gotten to know even less than that. I can promise you that you can join any public server and you will noticed a much degraded quality of gameplay. Sure they may have great scores and drip with l33tness, but they have no sense, no purpose, and definatley no want to have any form of community whatsoever. Rather, you will see bloodthirsty gamers out only to glorify their own name. Dang this public-access computer. Now I have to resort to summarizing. ;( Simply put; chill out, come here to enjoy yourself, not to look for a debate. Have fun and as much as possible, be at peace with all men.  _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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I will be concluding this thread in the next day or so. So you can look for my conclusion on all this then. If you ave any urgent points, go ahead and place them here.
But seeing as how I must get up in a few hours, I probably should start to sleep. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Kay Mata - Ex-Student |
maybe ...i wasn't even their...therefore i read what ulic said and base my post on it _______________ Back for good... |
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Kalheka - Student
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That's not entirely accurate Kay. There was a thread here in the forum that talked all about the incident. I won't go into specifics because I wasn't truly involved. I will say it was a situation that appears to have been handled badly on both sides. _______________ Death is only the beginning. |
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Kay Mata - Ex-Student |
i think your point and arguments are credible AND inttelligent...i can't even think of academy members treating somebody like this, i mean, i thought the academy was a place where everybody could speak freely(to a certain limit) wgitout getting personnally attacked...when i red this i was shocked, a JAT attacking you ?, someone attacking you because you were standing for your padawan ?...i understand why you have desire to quit the Academy, if you do so, it shall be a great loss i think : for those who think im supporting Ulic here ...you are right so hate me if you want, i don't care i think Ulic is right so _______________ Back for good... This comment was edited by Kay Mata on Jan 25 2003 11:07pm. |
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cHoSeN oNe - Retired 
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ioshee: how can you say that I am arrogant?
*looks in mirror _______________ Get busy living, or get busy dying. |
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Arcuss - Student 
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Man, I'm such a dork.
Bubu that's why ioshee is so special he has the ability to make us all smile under any circumstance. Keep it up ioshee. Just don't go trying to corner the market on failed attempts at humor, that's my role.
:arcuss: p.s. Did I mention I was a dork? |
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
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I think the politics thing will be here to stay. Every organization has them. We just have to make it work for us. _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
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 - Student |
That's one of the problems with the JA today : politics. |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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lol ioshee do you ever post anything serious? _______________ make install -not war |
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ioshee - Student
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Hey Arcuss, I’d like to say that I agree with you here about some of your points. Especially about tolerance and diversity. This Academy has taught me a lot about both. For instace, before I came here I would never have thought I could be playing and conversing peacefully with America’s arch enemy: Canada.
Just kidding. I love Canada. Please don't kill me Canadian Jedi. _______________ One of the Belouve boys This comment was edited by ioshee on Jan 24 2003 09:32pm. |
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Arcuss - Student 
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I don't really have anything intelligent to say as I'm just a man of small brain. I will say this however. Ulic it's obvious that you have a passion for politics. I think it's great that you are trying to raise the level of debate(in the war thread) from a swap meet of opinions to a more educated and researched discussion. Challenging people to examine their thoughts,and research the matter at hand before trying to win an argument based on opinion is a good endeavor. So I give you props for your efforts in this area. I like seeing people sharing their talents to inspire growth in others. Now onto the subject of personal attacks. You must realize that some of the things you put in your post are reactionary statements. The reaction, be it good or bad, depends on the individual who responds. You must accept and understand the fact that you will end up with responses from both ends of the spectrum, and every where in between. If you can't accept this simple fact don't post. You can't stop people from expressing their opinions on an open forum. You can on the other hand choose to ignore the ones you feel threatening or personally insulting. To retaliate shows you are no more intelligent than those you view as unintelligent attackers. Most comments you receive are going to be opinion oriented, sorry that's life. You really need to relax and let this small stuff go. Don't worry so much about other peoples perception of you, IT IS NOT REALITY. I think that is the reason you enjoyed being an initiate so much. By disguising your self in that way you removed the perception, a perception you created, and that you forced upon yourself and others. Sure Jedi philosophy is cool, and being honorable is admirable, but in this game it's just not all that fun. By removing yourself from the persona you created you didn't have to live up to that perception, and you had fun. We are not Jedi's you, me, or the next guy. We are no more than a group of individuals, each with his/her own screen, keyboard, mouse, and a cd, meeting new friends, playing a game we have a common interest in, and just enjoying this space in time we share together. We don't have to be honorable to each other, hell we don't even have to like each other. All that is asked of us here is to be tolerable and respectful of one another. If you approach the game in this manner I promise you things here will get better for you. You just have relax and enjoy the game. That is why your here right? I quote the About us page here: Have lots of fun, we enjoy fun, we love fun. We will make everything as fun as possible. Have fun training and teaching! That's our number one priority. Ulic I'm not trying to change your mind on whether you stay or go, that's a decision only you can make. I will tell you that I would rather see you stay. I don't like to see anyone go especially with feelings that they are not welcome. It's the diversity of it's members that makes this place what it is, and imo every individual is equally important, from the newest initiate to the founding members. You can take this as you wish be it words of wisdom and encouragement or the opinion of a small minded man, again this is your choice. :arcuss: Earlier in this post I said that perception is not reality. This is not always true. There are actually 5 cases where perception is reality. 1. when politicians are duping the masses(sorry ulic no offence) 2. when lawyers are duping a jury 3. when an illusionist is duping his audience 4. when a side show operator is duping any one willing to pay 5$ to see the amazing "insert favorite freak here" attraction 5. when the person being duped is you |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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argh i don't know where to start. i have so much stuff flowing through my head right now... i'm confused.
all i can say with certainty is that i do NOT want you to leave, Ulic. And many people appearently agree with me. If people don't like that you are training them in formulating good arguements, then don't. Just do what people like you to do, help others in the game. They are here primarily to get better at the game, and are always gratefull to whoever helps them out. I have never completed a serious discussion about politics without at least one guy leaving angry at the others. That is why I tend to stay away from these discussions. I have found that most of the time people stick to their opinions and will defend them blindly, even if it means hurting the others. I know that is what you are trying to stop, but it obviously doesn't work in here. One more thing. I want to thank you, Ulic. Thank you for everything. I might have said this before, but I would not be where I am right now (in terms of skill, and jediism) if it wasn't for you. Any padawan you should choose to take after me, should consider himself/herself very privileged. Zero, please don't put words in my mouth. You can quote me, but don't paraphrase what I said, alright? That's all for now. I have to go. Ulic, whatever your decision will be, may the force be with you. EDIT: sorry about any possible errors/typos. _______________ make install -not war This comment was edited by Bubu on Jan 24 2003 02:21am. |
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