| Katas, duels and cheap victories ? | |
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Odan-Wei Belouve - Student  |
Hi everyone !  I believe that duelling is not a simple deathmatch between two opponents. I have seen many people considering duels like they were tennis matches. To my mind, duelling is an art a jedi should learn to master, not only a 'I win - you loose' game. So I have noticed 3 main categories of duellists: - the 'Darksiders' Well those I really try to avoid. They are often on the edge of rudeness, thinking that winning a duel makes them better than others. They often have provoking taunts that appears at the end of the duel such as 'all too easy' or that sort of things... Katas are somewhat a great tool for them to get cheap victory when HPs are running low. - The 'Tennis Players' Those are the most common but yet they are usually nice people that prefer to think duelling is just a game. I respect that choice even if I do not agree with that point of view. They are usually polite but sometimes quite impatient as they miss the point of bowing at their opponent to signify they're ready. Katas are usually used to start or finish a duel, as a means to get the advantage or win a duel that was not in their favor. - The 'Purists' Those are the people who respect the strict term of duelling (at least from my point of view). They are always polite, encouraging less-skilled people, sharing their knowledge. They always greet their opponent at the start and at the end of a duel, for losing or winning a duel does not matter for them, since each duel is a lesson itself. They usually don't do katas since they rely on their own skills rahter than on a simple mouse1+mouse2 clic. I posted this message so that people might think about duels and the way of winning a duel. For each duel I won, I asked myself if I deserved to win, because of my skills or because of luck. I tried hard in the last few days not to use katas, to see what I was worth. I strongly suggest the ones who plan to pass the trials avoid using katas and cheap combo moves. Anyone may do a kata to win, but it is the privilege of the mighty to win a duel by the strength of their sabering skills. I wish you all good fights, fair duels and a lot of fun.  Odan-Wei _______________ Padawan and brother to SmilyKrazy  - Adopted in the Belouve Family by Fizz and Bubu, BELOUVE ON! - Vladarion, you'll always be in my heart and memories - Spam-Padawan of Jacen Aratan  - [DJ is my beloved wife!  - JA Family: Brothers:
Virtue, Furi0us, Vladarion, Hardwired, Janus, Axion, D@RtHM@UL, Motrec, Mike , xAnAtOs , Luke Skywalker; Little bro to SilkMonkey ; Special kind of brother to Kenyon ; Sisters in-law: Rosered, Ain-Soph Aur] Photoshop works: click here |
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What category do you fit in ?
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Jaiko D'Kana - Student 
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long live the "Purist's"........... _______________ The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind. William James (1842 - 1910) |
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Muad'dib - Student 
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Hmmm... ell I voted "tennis player" because I DO think of it as a game... In fact, that's what I bought it as But, seriously, I think your singling out the katas and the butterflies (though predominantly the katas) as cheap shots. But I don't think that's the issue, I think it's any move that's used as 'spam'. Katas and Butterflies just happen to be the new and trendy () one. I heard the exact same arguments against dfas and lunges in JK2, people would say they're cheap and takes no skill to use. And, yeah, when somebody pulls an rdfa everytime you get within 10 feet of them it can get old quick, but just because it's quick and easy doesn't mean you should shun it. Just learn when to use it to be most effective. Yes, Kata and dfas and lunges are powerful and quick (dfas have been made even easier for JA   ) but that's one of the reasons to learn them.And I also think you take it too seriously. (no offense!) It IS just a game, I mean in the end, why do you duel people? To have fun. And You can't really disparage anyone whose playing to win, cause if you're not trying to win, then why bother trying to improve your skills? Which is essentially the point of this place, ne? But I agree with you that people who try to beat others just to lord it over them as "1337 1i7713 B4574rD5" are, well, little bastards. Well that's my bit. It's probably all kinds of nonsensical rubbish, but it's what I got. _______________ "It's because I love you. No. It's because I love you" Oh, Anakin, you're eloquence is second to none. I AM THE OPIATE OF THE MASSES! This comment was edited by Muad'dib on Oct 11 2003 09:00am. |
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EAF_fencer3 - Student 
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Well, I'm always polite, and I do sometimes help people, but you make it sound as if Katas are responsible for all the evil in this world _______________ |"Evacuate? In our moment of Triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."|"hurray broccoli!" -Tarpman| |Godson to Carve|Ward of Flamori|Brother to Gunrow| |
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Battlin' Billy - Student 
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I'd probably be a "Purist" if I was better at duelling. Luckily, most people I've duelled are "Purists" and have taught me a lot and have been very encouraging. I'm fairly certain that's the attitude JAC/T/Ks want to see around here. This place rules!!! _______________ Midbie Council Member #2 - Profile ID 2073 | Member of B@rtM@ulS@ar | Owner of Monty's 2000th comment & D@RtHM@UL's 8100th comment | Former Padawan of SilkMonkey & Arcuss JA Goaltender & NHL Fan | Fellow Rush fan to Axion|Plo Koon is my oldest JA friend Post your RL pics HERE! | Post you JK2/JK3 screenies HERE! |
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JoYkiLLaH - Student 
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Well i dont know what catagory I fall into... I always Bow.. I always say Good Duel.. im a good sport but... I use kata's and specials... when I duel unoffically and say No Force.. I think in terms as if I was in an offical duel ... ill use kata's. but no pushing/pulling, saber throw, grip , light ect.. am i wrong ? is using kata in no force duels not allowed, because there allowed in reg duels.. then theres the ocasional noob who says push is allowed in NF duels ONLY because if you saber lock you can push, so the guy thinks he can push also if your not locked.. lol gimme imput. |
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n00b - Student 
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I wouldn't classify the type of player someone is based on the moves they use. I wish all the sour grapes in regards to Katas and butterflies would disappear. Last night, I showed a few people how to effectively counter the butterfly. It can be done, its not really hard. I offered a certain someone advice on how to defend yourself against the staff with a single saber. The comment I got back in return was, "You never use single. You always play staff and spam butterflies. I don't need your help." This was said by one of the "purists" you are talking about. Obviously this person hasn't seen that I play all sabers, not just staff. My way of thinking is that if I know how to play them all, I will understand how to effectively counter whatever move is presented before me. I know which moves counter that butterfly and if I execute one proficiently, I will make them think twice about trying it again. _______________ Gone but hopefully not forgotten... |
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Rainer - Student |
"They usually don't do katas since they rely on their own skills rahter than on a simple mouse1+mouse2 clic. " This is what kept be from voting purist. In my opinion there is a certain amount of skill involved. Knowing your combos and being able to duel effectively without using specials is essential, but thats no reason to ignore katas alltogether. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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3th - Retired 
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i voted tennis, because i like to play tennis but really, i think there is no substitute for respect and good fun. i can see where some ppl might enjoy roll-playing a darksider, but i think one can do that in a way that is in darkside character without the, "u sux0rz, /\/\y /\/\4d 733t sk1LLz pWn j00!!!!!!!!!!!" glad to see that everyone here has a great sense of sportsmanship. i happen to be new to this whole thing (never played jk2) and i appreciate the tips i've received from ppl here at the academy. _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! |
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Odan-Wei Belouve - Student 
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Don't be sorry Jake ! Anyone is free to play as he feels. If a 'darkside tennis match' is the way you get fun, it is okay for me. As Vladarion said humility is the key of well-playing. After I read him I felt my poll lacked some humility. Now I make my amends and I'll try to find a smoother way to express my thoughts. Odan-Wei _______________ Padawan and brother to SmilyKrazy - Adopted in the Belouve Family by Fizz and Bubu, BELOUVE ON! - Vladarion, you'll always be in my heart and memories - Spam-Padawan of Jacen Aratan - [DJ is my beloved wife! - JA Family: Brothers:
Virtue, Furi0us, Vladarion, Hardwired, Janus, Axion, D@RtHM@UL, Motrec, Mike , xAnAtOs , Luke Skywalker; Little bro to SilkMonkey ; Special kind of brother to Kenyon ; Sisters in-law: Rosered, Ain-Soph Aur] Photoshop works: click here |
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Jake Kainite - Student 
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I'm probably a dark side tennis player Sorry but thats just the way I play. Thats not to say I don't fit into your 'purists' gategory. I still help people if I think I know how they can improve, I'm NEVER rude about someones playing skill. _______________ Apprenctice of Jedi Master Ascari (deceased) Descended from a line of great Jedi Will argue any point of view from any side
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Lackeh- Retired - Student 
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Most of you all don't know me yet; i'm only about a week old so i'm not sure if this will matter much to those of you with more experience. I have been dueling for a few hours every day since i joined, and have I think gotten much better at it. I have won a total of about 4 duels; but by no means have i beaten anyone. I beat Odan a few days ago, once; with a kata I believe. I did this as a last resort while trying to time it. It worked for me that time. Some of you have seen me use katas off an on, but I would like to encourage the newer students here not to rely on them as an offensive tool. Pay attention in matches and watch other duelists, you can learn alot even from the sidelines. I have learned more watching Luke and Odan and Virtue than I have fighting battle after battle. It is important to learn how to fight without the "special" moves. However you must keep in mind that they do have their place and time. there is my $0.02 The cannon fodder for all; for now. PIE!!!!!!! _______________ A champion is someone who keeps getting up; even when they can't. Founder Of the Jedi Academy Adlut Support Group. PIE!!!!! Padawan of Katan. Brother to MOTREC, DarkDragon, (SKX)DarkBlade, Jacen Aratan, Achilles, Kool_Aide, EvilSquirrel, and Katan's Padawans. |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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Im a purist!!! _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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Rainer - Student |
I haven't read all the posts yet, but in my opinion Katas and other special moves do keep a duel interesting. Its something you have to keep an eye out for. As far as spamming, let them spam! Avoid it and take advantage of their predictability. ---- I voted tennis player, but for this reason- I will attempt to use katas to gain an edge if I feel I can hit someone with them. The problem is that you put all the qualities of etiquite in purist, most of which I try to hold to. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on Oct 10 2003 07:57am. |
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Vladarion - Ex-Student 
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As in all things one must remeber humility. It takes a good person to be humble when he is blessed with a win.... It takes a great person to be humble when he suffers a loss. We each have fought duels that we pulled off by the seat of our pants and thought (Shew that was close). Skill is not just how good you are with a saber or tactics with one... but how you accept winning or loosing and how you react to both. Humility is something that each of us must hold in high reguard... for after all, those we are dueling are 9 times out of 10 our brothers and sisters of the Academy. _______________ Padawan of Mace Windu, Brother to All. "Remeber, the Force will be with you always." - ObiWan Kenobi |
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Odan-Wei Belouve - Student
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I am glad some people bring some wisdom in this poll Thanks Odan-Wei _______________ Padawan and brother to SmilyKrazy - Adopted in the Belouve Family by Fizz and Bubu, BELOUVE ON! - Vladarion, you'll always be in my heart and memories - Spam-Padawan of Jacen Aratan - [DJ is my beloved wife! - JA Family: Brothers:
Virtue, Furi0us, Vladarion, Hardwired, Janus, Axion, D@RtHM@UL, Motrec, Mike , xAnAtOs , Luke Skywalker; Little bro to SilkMonkey ; Special kind of brother to Kenyon ; Sisters in-law: Rosered, Ain-Soph Aur] Photoshop works: click here |
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Luke Skywalker - Student 
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Whew, what can I say, well put Virtue and aphex... well put.. _______________ Luke Skywalker
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aph3x - Retired 
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yay virtue! well put the mark of a good game is having no move have an advantage over all others. for instance(as far as i know, im not pretending to be an expert @ jk2) in jk2, every move was counterable. rdfa was extremely powerful, but it left you open to attack for a sily amount of time. same with ydfa, but you had the defense, because it didnt generally do as much damage. blue stance isf aster, but does little damage. red stance hits hard, but is slow as molasses. balance is the key to a good game. jk3 is kinda lacking it atm IMHO |
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Virtue - Jedi Council 
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I don't think he's getting at people who use Katas or Specials. I think his main concern in people who constantly spam them. Take the "Butterfly" move that Staff Wielders can do, that can easily take a player of 100/100 down to about 22hp. Which is okay if it was a well planned and timely executed move. But when somebody does it every few seconds, it can start to eat away at you. My main concern is, people who do this actually think they are skillfull, and "Big themselvs up" about it. I fought a guy the other day who constantly Lunged. And, needless to say, he killed me. He started acting all boastfull, believing that he "pWn3d" me, and was generally better than me. Which to be honest, just disgusted me. But at the same time, there is a flip side to almost EVERYTHING. The next time I duelled this person (not 5 minutes after the first time) I knew how he fought, and knew exactly what he was going to do. In short, I started the Duel with 100/100, and when it was over, I had 100/87 and he was looking up at me from the flat of his back. The same went for every Duel that followed thereafter. So yes, people who "spam" these specials and generally think that they are the Masters, are VERY annoying. But generally, they can be beaten if you just adapt to what they are doing and use their recovery time and you evasion to plant devistating "more skillfull" attacks to bring them down. - Virtue. _______________ Academy Architect |
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Achilles - Student 
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Very nicely pointed out I'm a purist YAY! _______________ Padawan to the great Katan JA Brother to D@RTHM@ULR.I.P. Vladarion, may he find peace in the afterlife. |
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OcarinaLink - Student 
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I agree with Buzz. I also agree with what you're saying about the advantages the katas give you. But keep in mind that both duelists have those options available. It's only a matter of skill on both players' side on whether to use the kata at the right or wrong moment. For instance, I learned long ago that using the dfas a lot in JK2 was not gonna win me a lot of battles, especially with some of the gifted people here at the JA. Naturally, i learned to duel properly with skill, yet I held onto my knowledge of the dfas and used them when I thought the time called for it. Granted, if I was stuck down to 2 HP, and I was getting desparate, I would consider trying to use an rdfa to save myself, but only if I thought I could pull it off. That's one of the beauties of JK...even if you're down by a lot, there's still a chance for you if you can adapt and play more defense/offense as the duel called for. I am impressed that you made the decision to keep your hands off of the katas, but be forewarned: real, skilled duelists will not shun them for their advantage. they will use it as they see necessary to stay alive. Don't get addicted to them, but don't completely close yourself from them. Like Buzz said, it's all a matter of choosing the right moment to act and deliver. _______________ memento mori This comment was edited by OcarinaLink on Oct 10 2003 12:29am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Well let's look at it a different way. You're dueling someone he still is at 100/50. You are down to 2 hp. You manage to beat him still without using any specials. There was nothing wrong with that duel. Maybe you were using blue stance until that point and so you resigned the fact that you could not win with blue so you switched to yellow. Almost all duels are won on choosing the right time to do anything. Be it either you manage a swing at the right moment or you chose to turn 3 degrees to the left. The katas are the same. Most people aren't going to be screaming if you beat them with a kata and if it happens to be that low health situation, the other person is likely to chuckle and say "damn" _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Ash - Eats Babies 
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i think what your trying to say is that you do not like 1 hit kills. yeah they do kinda suck _______________ "We keep odd hours...." ----------------------- They Live, We Sleep |
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Odan-Wei Belouve - Student
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I guess I lack the language to describe correctly how I feel towards Katas. I am NOT saying that ppl who use them (even too much) are low-skilled. I am NOT saying I 'm dumb enough to be caught in a kata every time there is one in a duel. I do know how to avoid them and even sometimes how to get the guy who's doing it. But I just think these are easy moves that do not bring any interest to a duel. This is just the way I feel and for sure it is not an accusation. To me using a kata when you're low on HP just means you cannot accept the fact you're unable to get your opponent by the 'regular' ways But again, this is just my way of thinking. Maybe I'm wrong. But for sure I try not to use them. I don't like the idea that I won a duel just because I was right in the timing to click my mouse and do the 'killing kata' to finish off my opponent. Odan-Wei _______________ Padawan and brother to SmilyKrazy - Adopted in the Belouve Family by Fizz and Bubu, BELOUVE ON! - Vladarion, you'll always be in my heart and memories - Spam-Padawan of Jacen Aratan - [DJ is my beloved wife! - JA Family: Brothers:
Virtue, Furi0us, Vladarion, Hardwired, Janus, Axion, D@RtHM@UL, Motrec, Mike , xAnAtOs , Luke Skywalker; Little bro to SilkMonkey ; Special kind of brother to Kenyon ; Sisters in-law: Rosered, Ain-Soph Aur] Photoshop works: click here |
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Mace Windu - Retired 
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hmm _______________ -Mace Windu "When a fool says something foolish, do not answer the fool." -Windu To Vladarion, though I know you are in a better place - it makes me shake to think that you are not awake - when I think about you it makes me smile - i know you have gone into the clouds to head for heavens gates - you have changed my life - in an incredible way - and so I say thank you - may you rest in peace |
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aph3x - Retired
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yeah dude....specials are fine. theres always a counter. of course jk3 is pretty out of wack right now...so some moves mite actually have severe advantages over others...but i mean...generally speaking...if some1 is using the same move over and over again...you'd have to be pretty thick not to catch on and counter it. theres a counter for everything. edit-- as far as these "kata" thingies go...i mean yea they look cool and are pretty uber powerful i think....but you cant freakin move...except change direction(Sometimes). theres the disadvantage. its like the RDFA(in jk2)...it does massive amounts of damage...but i mean come on....some1 spams that move and they die. when some1 starts a 'kata' move or whatever...wait till its almost done and roll stab them, or rdfa them or something. wax em. This comment was edited by aph3x on Oct 09 2003 08:45pm. |
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