| Jesus Christ | |
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Rainer - Student |
Plain and simple, I want your opinions on the following things. Please give me reasons behind your beliefs. I may or may not post my standings on the matter. I just recently resigned from such a topic on another forum because it was taking up too much of my time writing replies. I've just grown curious about how the people of the Academy view Jesus, especially after seeing MINDofSIN's profile pic. Your beliefs regarding him. - Are you a Christian? If so, why? Oh and if your an agnostic, I would rather this conversation stray away from a long debate on whether or not the truth on the matter is knowable. For this topic the term Christian should be applied to someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and who has committed their life to Him. Who was He? - This includes who do you think He thought He was. If you state that He thought Himself to be a prophet, give me reasons. If you state He thought himself to be God, again, give me reasons. If you state he never existed, you best present evidence on the matter because that is easily refuted. What of his Resurrection? - The most important story of Christianity, without this Christian Faith is in vain. Refute it or Defend it. Please make sure you are actually refuting it or defending it, and that you are not just making empty comments. I do not want an analysis of Christianity or religions in general. I do however want an analysis of Jesus Christ Himself, be Him man or God. I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again, do not make empty comments. Oh yeah, and be civil. The last thing I want is a flame war between believers and non-believers. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This post was edited by Rainer on Oct 10 2003 05:12pm. |
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Rainer - Student |
Maybe it's best not to debate this issue. There is too much to cover, and too little time. My objective was to talk about Christ, however to get anyone to even consider Christ you would have to first answer their objections to diety in general. Even if you can establish the possibility of diety then you would have to debate over the matter of evolution. If there is a possibility for diety, yet evolution takes the place of that diety, then you no longer even need to consider the possiblity for diety. After debating evolution then maybe you could move on to Christ. If people already have their mind made up that God cannot exist then there's no point in debating over whether or not his Son exists. Or rather am I looking at it wrong? Really if you can put a convincing case for Christ, then it may cause the person to revaluate their position concerning diety. Either way I don't know if we should really debate the matter, may just be another cause for tension. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on Oct 28 2003 05:13am. |
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Ashyr - Student 
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Sorry Ranga, I don't mean to get off the subject, but in reply to Bandit: If you are going to make a claim about Christian beliefs, then at least be accurate. Never has anyone said that everything has to have a creator, but everything is made by one creator: God. Since God is an almighty figure, he has always been, and there is nothing needed to create him. Oh, and maybe you're right about the apes thing. I'll look into it though. Sorry for assuming. And MINDofSIN, I don't believe in god just because I want to go to heaven, but that is a benefit. God has given us a gift; Jesus, who sacrificed himself, and paid the price for EVERYONE's sins. All we do is accept the gift he has already given to us, which is eternal life with God, and redemption from our sins. Otherwise, we would be banished to hell forever, which is the punishment for our sins that everyone commits (no, Christians are not perfect). _______________ Top ten reasons to get a better computer...|My fan |
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Rainer - Student |
Extraordinary Claims There is a great amount of evidence that supports the gospels, however I think the burden of proof is relived some when you look into the authenticity of the Bible. If the news reports something that is very improbable, you believe it because the news has been accurate in reporting things in the past. The claim that was once extraordinary no longer requires extraordinary proof. The most important miracle of the New Testament, the resurrection has much evidence backing up its claims. Once Upon A Time I'm sorry, but this is one of the few times I literally laughed out loud when reading something on the internet. By your standards we should never trust any work of antiquity. Here is a prime example. Any historian would consider it outrageous to claim that The History of Thucydides is not authentic because of the time frame between the manuscripts we have and the original writing and events are so short! The funny part comes when you learn that the manuscripts we have, all eight of them, are from 1,300 years after the original writing. I could do this to any work of antiquity. Now lets compare that to the Bible, you already stated your proposed dates for authorship, and I would agree with you. The New Testament was written somewhere between 50-100 A.D. The earliest fragments that we have are from 114 A.D. We have whole books from 200 A.D. By 250 A.D. we have most of the New Testament, and by 325 A.D. we have the complete new testament. That is 225 years max after its original writing. We have 5,686 manuscripts in the Greek alone. We have yet another 19,284 manuscripts in other languages. If a myth or legend were to come up out of this short of a time period it would be the first time ever in history for it to do so. You also must remember that the gospels were written in the same generation that the events happened. If someone made an inaccurate account of the story do you think they'd just sit back and watch? If the Romans or Jewish Leaders saw it happening do you think that they would sit back and watch as Christianity rises yet again on a lie. In fact there aren’t any historical works of the time that argued that he didn’t do miracles, there are only works that talk about him in a demeaning way. I can’t remember if it was Josephus or Tacticus who said that Jesus was a man who wrought surprising feats. Now this doesn’t necessarily mean miracles, but it could be applied in that way. If this was a great lie, then you have 11 men who died martyrs, for something they knew for themselves was a lie. You must remember that the Gospels corroborate themselves, but that’s not all. The works of Josephus, Tacticus, Pleny the Younger, and other historical authors give reference to Jesus. Marks Gospel was written for the Gentiles in Rome. I doubt he would want to put something like the virgin birth in there. The only reason he would want to do so would to show fulfillment of prophecy, and since the majority of the Romans didn't study the law it would mean nothing to them. Just because one book doesn't mention an event, and another one does, it doesn't mean the event never took place, that should be common sense. Evolution Again There are a great many things I'd like to say concerning this, but I would like the conversation to stay on topic, so I will not comment. The Resurrection I believe this is one of the must important aspects of Christianity, and I can't find a way to rationally disregard it. >The Body Stolen! Can someone please tell me why disciples that went and stole the body of Christ would go and die for him? 11 out of the 12 died a martyr, and the 12 died of old age. Who would do this for something that they knew to be false. Yes people have in the past died for good causes, but where do you see an account where 11 people die for something they knew was a hoax. >Wrong Tomb? If it was the wrong tomb, then not only would the women who visited the tomb have had gotten the wrong tomb, but the disciples who buried him would have. Besides if they did, don't you think that the Romans would have happily produced the body at the first sign of the uprising of Christianity? >Swoooooooooooooon.... There are many things I have to say to the Swoon theory, but the most compelling evidence I see is that when pierced a mixture of blood and water came out, which is a sign of internal decomposition. He was quite obviously dead, the trained guard believed it, Pilot believed it, and so did everyone else. He had a guard placed at his tomb and the Roman seal was placed upon it. If that seal was broken the punishment was death. If the guards left the punishment was death. I don't see how this half living Jesus could move the boulder in front of the tomb, which by the way was put into place via levers, and then somehow appear to the guards in a way to make them run off. Remember, these guards would be put to death for leaving their posts, yet for some reason they fled. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on Oct 28 2003 01:39am. |
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Bandit - Student 
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DarkSith, what is more plausible... A) life began with a single celled organism no matter how improbable or b) Life began as a deity? And if you say, well God has always been here, he didn't need to be created, then I would say to you that your argument is fallacious. If everything must have a creator, then why is God exempt? It seems to me much more likely that life began as a simple life form versus an infinitely powerful one. And you have more than two choices...either there is no god, or there is one of hundreds of different religions. Hope you pick the right one. Also, man didn't evolve from apes. We had a common ancestor. That's why we don't find bones of apes as fossils...apes hadn't evolved into their present form millions of years ago. The ancestor we had in common wouldn't be considered either ape or human. However, the two linages evolved differently into what we today call apes and humans. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) This comment was edited by Bandit on Oct 27 2003 09:59pm. |
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MINDofSIN - Student 
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Does anyone else here think it's a bit selfish to only believe in God because you want to get into heaven? _______________ Jedi Academy Holocron http://jaholocron.ryanmh.com/ Why should our government send our soldiers to foreign soil to protect freedom of speech, when our freedom of speech is being taking away everyday by the same government. |
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Ashyr - Student
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Now, I just discovered this post, and read the last few replies. Now here's my opinion: I think it takes WAY more faith to belive: that two gasses came together, blew up, and created matter, and life that can spontanously evolve and generate it's self, than to belive that: an almighty creator came and made all these things. Since, if you want to be scientific, how in any way in the history of human physiolgy or geology, that two gasses (that came from nowhere) randomly combust, (science finds in countless cases that matter cannot convert in any way unless acted apon by energy[which there was no evidence of ] ) and somehow create matter, and life forms? Then, contrary to the law: "order cannot come from chaos", these spontaniously generated lifeforms start to form into different lifeforms. Now, in the study of genetics, cells of a certain species and kind, produce the same exact cell. Though, it has been lately proved that every cell in a life-form contains DNA for every kind of cell in that life-form that is unused (making cloning possible). So, the DNA remains the same from generation, to generation. Now, they come with the idea that mutations over thousands of years can eventually change species, but studies show, that not only do mutations RARELY pass on to the next generation, but they still are unique to that speicies. That's why never, in the observation and record of animals, have humans seen a species actually change. Assuming all this is possible, if, for say, that humans came from apes, right? If we did, there would either: Still be a middle link, because they are still evolving, or: All the apes would be gone because they all evolved and they are all gone. _______________ Top ten reasons to get a better computer...|My fan This comment was edited by Ashyr on Oct 30 2003 01:58am. |
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Orion - Retired 
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*blinks* nice read bandit  _______________ When a Man lies he murder's some part of the world. These are the pale deaths which men misscall there lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer. Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home? -Cliff Burton Owner of Smily's 1900th comment | <Lady_Catherine> i love your sexy white socks! | (Lady_Catherine) i adore u! | (Lady_Catherine) onion (Lady_Catherine) i lub u |
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Bandit - Student
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Okay...What I find untrustworthy in the Christ story (and without digressing to deities in general, although those arguments would necessitate precluding the Christ story also). 1. The Christ story is an extraordinary claim without very compelling evidence. The more extraordinary the claim, the greater the burden of proof. However, as Gentleman Loser pointed out, there is no proof of the supernatural claim of the Christ story. I don't accept the Christ story for the same reason most people don't accept that MS. Cleo is really a psychic... there is no compelling evidence to believe it and it goes against everything we know to be true. 2. Mark wasn't written until about 60 or 70 AD, by second and third hand accounts. Would we even begin to consider this as a reliable source if it was any other document? Doubtful. Certainly not as the compelling evidence needed to ensure the veracity of an extraordinary claim. Indeed, the bible itself is often referred to as both the claim and the evidence which is circular! There should be accounts to corroborate the story of Christ, instead though, the only accounts are in the Nag Hammadi library which show a completely different depiction of Christ. Sure, there are some historical truths in the writings, but as to the things that are extraordinary, there is no other evidence besides a book written 40 years after the fact by a second hand party. 3) Paul doesn't mention many of the events that occured in the gospel. Paul also fails to credit jesus for obvious teachings. Even mark didn't mention the virgin birth or appearances after being risen. The later gospels (like Matthew) have saints rising from the dead and going into cities. Suggests a growing myth. IOW, even the gospels themselves aren't consistent. 4) It just seems like a coincidence that many parts of the story have so much in common with earlier stories. It's like those stories were grafted onto Christianity as it evolved. I think what actually happened and the religion that evolved from it over the next 500 years were completely different. An example would be the concept of the Trinity. This concept is accepted as a basic tenet of the bible by most Christians today, although it is not written as such in the bible. Jesus never said, my father, the holy spirit and I are actually three and yet one, a trinity...he never even referred to themselves as a sort of triumvirate. This interpretation of the bible came about at the Council of Nicaea (sp?). So...those are some reasons, but there are even more. The most compelling reasons in my eyes are the arguments against a deity in general, but I will save those for another time. Personally, let me say that I REALLY wish I was wrong. I would like to believe there is a God. In fact, I would love to believe there is a God. I just can't bring myself to believe that which I know isn't true (which would take me into another argument on why God can't exist...at least the Christian God). I mean, my father is a minister, my grandfather was a minister, my uncle is a minister, my cousin is a missionary, my sister is finishing seminary as I type this... I love them all and would never want to change their views. I think there is a deepseated emotional need that is filled by believing in something greater than ourselves. I wish I had that. But I just can't believe something just because I want to... _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Orion - Retired
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Well said Gent  _______________ When a Man lies he murder's some part of the world. These are the pale deaths which men misscall there lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer. Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home? -Cliff Burton Owner of Smily's 1900th comment | <Lady_Catherine> i love your sexy white socks! | (Lady_Catherine) i adore u! | (Lady_Catherine) onion (Lady_Catherine) i lub u |
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Gentleman Loser - Ex-Student 
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I dont believe that the story of Christ is true because I have yet to see any evidence that miracles exist. Conversly I am repeatedly faced with the evidemce of rational, scientific explanations for existence in my everyday life. BTW, you say that evolution is not a question of science vs christianity? Then does the Christian relegion accept evolution as being more accurate than the creationist explanation of man? Science has been wrong in the past, but science doesnt clain to have all the answers. The answers it does have, however, can be demontrated true by experimentation. The evidence of early earth having had a 'reducing atmosphere' (ammonia, hyrdrogen etc) now seems to be non-existant, granted. There is however, evidence that early earth had both an oxidizing and an earlier, neutral atmosphere. Amino acids would have found it more difficult to form in a neutral atmosphere, but they can do so. Studies of life in the archaean (3.8 to 2.5 billion years ago) have suggested the existence of bacteria and single-celled algae. These studies seem to confirm theories that life formed this way. 'In a pond' for want of a better term. The evidence for a non-supernatural universe is overwhelming. The evidence for the existance of god, a life after death, and of a miraculous christ is very slim indeed. Mostly hearsay. I don't see what's so difficult to accept about the formation of 'life in a pond'. DNA is just 4 chemicals spun into a double helix. Scientist have actually created artificial DNA, not just amino acids as in Millers' experiment. If man can accomplish this with our limited intellects, and do so in a time span of a few hundred years after the dark ages, why is it difficult to accept that life could form naturally in a similar way over a time frame of billions of years? Where a spiritual person sees patterns and meaning, I see co-incidence.  _______________ "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" Bhagavad Gita & J. Robert Oppenheimer |
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Rainer - Student |
The topic is Jesus Christ, so I would rather it just pertain to him. When I have time I'll post evidences for Christ, but right now I got something else to do. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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Bandit - Student
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"I think I’ll restate my original question to you so that it stays on topic, why do you find the story of Christ untrustworthy?" I would ask you just the opposite. Why should anyone find the story of Christ trustworthy? Also, if you want to know why I find the story of Christ untrustworthy, do you want it to pertain to just Christ, or deities in general? _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Rainer - Student |
My friend, you are mistaken. Evolution as our origin is not a case of Christianity vs. science, science itself is its own opponent. At the time of the publishing of Origin of the Species it was a very popular belief that life could spontaneously generate itself under certain conditions. An example would be maggots somehow generating themselves in meat, or bacteria growing. For him to speculate that "some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity, etc. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes" would have been perfectly acceptable at the time. However what evidence do we have today to show that life can spontaneously generate itself? For some reason scientists can let go the idea that maggots spontaneously generate themselves out of meat but can't seem to let go of the idea of life forming out of a puddle. Instead they just say, oh well if you give it a few more billion years it could happen. You may refer to Miller's experiment, but they used chemicals that they thought would create favorable results, they had no proof for what the early earth's atmosphere was made of. Scientific advances have shown that the methane, ammonia, and hydrogen needed would not have existed in a primitive earth. The pattern you mentioned, does repeat itself again and again, but the only thing it attacks is the notion of macro-evolution as origin. Most humanists accuse Christians of holding to their beliefs and not even considering that they could be wrong, while the same humanists hold to their ideas so religiously the same is true for them. There have been many scientists over that past years who have given up their belief in evolution, and I don’t mean Christian scientists. Unless you look at it from a Calvinist point of view the Bible does advocate free will. As far as miracles are concerned, if God created the universe, then why would he be confined by the limitations of this world? I would agree, miracles do not lie in the confines of science, because science by its very nature only deals with the natural. However laws shown by science lie under certain conditions. Someone drops something, you catch it, and it stops falling. By catching it did you defy a scientific law? Absolutely not, your merely intervening. If the supernatural is messing around with the natural then the laws no longer meet their set conditions. I think I’ll restate my original question to you so that it stays on topic, why do you find the story of Christ untrustworthy? _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on Oct 26 2003 08:05pm. |
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Gentleman Loser - Ex-Student
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Don't get me wrong here, I think the bible contains great wisdom. I just don't believe in god or life after death. I have nothing against those who do believe in a hereafter. The problem as I see it, is that relegion can only be accepted in areas of scientific doubt. Whenever science has examined the world around us, it has dispelled myths previously held true. It was the case not long ago that everyone accepted the notion of creation in 7 days. Science proved this was wildy innacurate, and relegion either retreated (by declaring the story of creation as not being literal!!) or just flat out refused to accept the evidence (scientific creationism being taught in southern US schools). This pattern repeats itself again and again as scientific knowledge increases. The new testament relays the story and teachings of jesus and prophecy of the end times. I don't believe that jesus could have performed miracles, because science tells us otherwise. I cant believe in prophecy, as this denies another scientific principle(that of uncertainty), not to mention that it would mean free-will does not exist. Yet if the bible is to be believed, god gave man free will... Just one of the many contradictions in the bible. Now there's also the argument of which relegion is the right one? Every relegion says they're right, and that clearly cannot be the case. From there, its a short jump to the possibility that no religion is right. I could go on and on with this kind of thing, but I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking. If people want to learn more, there are a great number of scientific and philsophical works that could be read online. _______________ "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" Bhagavad Gita & J. Robert Oppenheimer |
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Bandit - Student 
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Ranja, I think your analogy actually works in MY favor for an argument. Pretend I am the bear, and God is the human. Despite my complete and utter lack of understanding about what God is trying to do (help me), I am in fact aware of his presence. That was my point. Despite a finite mind being incapable of understanding an infinite mind, and the concepts it could have, that would not prevent the finite mind from understanding that the infinite mind exists. I might not be able to understand what a god thinks, but I should be able to deduce he exists with my finite mind, just as the bear was aware of the human. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Rainer - Student |
Back again, and I still haven't read everything, lol. Gentlemen Loser, can you give me a reason why the Bible, the New Testament in particular, is not trustworthy? EDIT: As far as the finite not understanding the infinite arguement, here is an analogy I once read. A man finds a bear in a hunter's trap. The man feels compassion for the bear and trys to let him go. The bear is hostile and won't let him get close, he thinks the man is attacking him. The man then shoots the bear with drugs, and the bear still thinks he's attacking him. The man finally saves the bear, yet the bear thought all along the man was trying to hurt him. If an animal can have a lesser understanding than man, then it is entirely possible that man has a lesser understanding than God. I don't like that reasoning, because I don't like to think that there are things that I can't understand, but it still stands true. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on Oct 26 2003 04:49am. |
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MINDofSIN - Student
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omg *eagerly awaits responses* _______________ Jedi Academy Holocron http://jaholocron.ryanmh.com/ Why should our government send our soldiers to foreign soil to protect freedom of speech, when our freedom of speech is being taking away everyday by the same government. |
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Gentleman Loser - Ex-Student
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If I was going to be cynical, I'd say god is like santa for adults. _______________ "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" Bhagavad Gita & J. Robert Oppenheimer |
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Austin 3:16 : I just kicked your ass! Oh hell yeah!  |
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Sared - Retired 
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One last *BUMP*? _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Sared - Retired 
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*BUMP*!!!! _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Sared - Retired
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*bump* Props to ya badger! _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Badger Hat - Student 
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I'm kinda busy right now, but I am a Christian, and not ashamed. (Rom. 1:16) _______________ RL bro to HawkJedi Chuck Norris pwns!(duh) Proud member of Yeah, it's a hat. |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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I just realize that I never really answered Ranja's forum questions. LOL I kinda did with posting scripture because it gives us a look at God's wisdom. As far as being a Christian is concerned, No, I don't believe that I am one. Not a true one anyway. Reason why I say that is because I believe one would have to be truely saved by God to qualify as a true Christian. In 1 John 3:9 we read: 9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God. Also in Psalm 119:10&11 we read: 10) With my whole heart I have sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. 11) Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. And in 1 John 2:3-5 we read: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. I don't keep God's commandments not because I don't want to but because I'm a man. It's in my nature to rebel against God. Even if I did live my life according to His Word from this day forth, how am I going to pay for my sins? No, I will wait for God, if it is in His perfect will, to save me and make me to not sin against Him for I do not wish to deceive myself. Because of this simple fact that I sin day in and day out, I know that I'm not saved as of yet and therefore don't call myself a Christian. I do however read God's Word and I pray for His mercy. Who was Jesus? None other but the only begotten Son of God. The Bible tells us that within Jesus dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily. God knows the beginning from the end and He knew perfectly well that mankind would rebel against Him knowing that this would set up the greatest demostration of His love for us. All of us as a whole should be destroyed instantly for rebelling against The Almighty God, creator of the Heavens and the Earth. We should be trembling with fear before God for sinning. Just try to imagine how aweful hell is going to be. Here's God, who created everything around us, everything that we can't even totally explore or possible come close to understanding everything, by speaking and bringing it all into being within 6 days time. Look at our ecosystem before man destroyed it and how it is still somehow balanced today. Look at the solar systems and how the planets stay their courses. This same God will create a super punishment for each and every person who isn't saved and this terrible punishment with last for the rest of eternity. This life time will be nothing more then a drop is to an ocean looking down all eternity. Trust me when I say this, no matter how bad you think life is, no matter how bad your down and out, nothing here on this planet in this life time will even amount to anything compared with the supreme awefulness of hell. Please keep reading your Bibles everybody. I don't want to think of any of you going to hell. Please put yourselves in the environment in which God saves. Get to know God and maybe just maybe in His Great Mercies He might save you too. God knowing that no one could bear the aweful penelty of God's wrath, He took the sins of many, in the human form of Jesus Christ, to bear the sins of those that He had elected to salvation. Christ's resurrection was a sign to show that He was being made a curse for us. In Galations 3:13 we read: 13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: His physical death wasn't the payment for our sins for before He died on the cross, He said it is finished, (John 19:30). Also in the garden of Gethsemane He began to pay the terrible price for He was in agony and His sweat fell like great drops of blood, (Luke 22:42-44). So to who Jesus was, He was the Son of God, son of man. He had to take on a human nature in order to qualify Himself as a substitute to pay for the elects sins but never ceased being Eternal God. How truely wonderful that we have a God willing to do this for us!!!!!!! Simply amazing. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Sared - Retired
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Oh, on a side note, if human beings used any more that twenty precent or so of our brains at a time, we would die before we turned twenty-five.  Human anatomy, fun stuff, check it out. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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