| Jesus Christ | |
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Rainer - Student |
Plain and simple, I want your opinions on the following things. Please give me reasons behind your beliefs. I may or may not post my standings on the matter. I just recently resigned from such a topic on another forum because it was taking up too much of my time writing replies. I've just grown curious about how the people of the Academy view Jesus, especially after seeing MINDofSIN's profile pic. Your beliefs regarding him. - Are you a Christian? If so, why? Oh and if your an agnostic, I would rather this conversation stray away from a long debate on whether or not the truth on the matter is knowable. For this topic the term Christian should be applied to someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and who has committed their life to Him. Who was He? - This includes who do you think He thought He was. If you state that He thought Himself to be a prophet, give me reasons. If you state He thought himself to be God, again, give me reasons. If you state he never existed, you best present evidence on the matter because that is easily refuted. What of his Resurrection? - The most important story of Christianity, without this Christian Faith is in vain. Refute it or Defend it. Please make sure you are actually refuting it or defending it, and that you are not just making empty comments. I do not want an analysis of Christianity or religions in general. I do however want an analysis of Jesus Christ Himself, be Him man or God. I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again, do not make empty comments. Oh yeah, and be civil. The last thing I want is a flame war between believers and non-believers. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This post was edited by Rainer on Oct 10 2003 05:12pm. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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First off, there is the logical and argumentative fallacy of both Rave and Menaxia taking a general issue and making it a personal attack on Ranja. (edit: actually, looking through this, many of you break this down into a personal level, personal atttacks, which is merely illogical. So not to pick on just the few above). If you wish to argue from a logical perspective, use logic in constructing your arguments. Since your arguments are logically flawed, you have not made many counterpoints to the discussion at hand. Keep your arguments logically linked, and stay within the general issue, and not personal attack, else, you will merely prove Ranja's side of the argument the victor by failing to logically argue. This happens all the time, that the opposing side needs to resort to making the issue a personal one, and thus fails in logical argumentation. I'l make my points after I read more. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. This comment was edited by Ulic Belouve on Nov 18 2003 05:27pm. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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And what would qualify oneself? I will ponder many of these thoughts, as I have a wealth of resources at my disposal, and am quite formidable at defending the Christian faith. I have many books, some of which he speaks of, at the office where I work (my job is to do things like defend points to others). I will enter my comments from the office. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Menaxia - Student 
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He's just a little kid thinking he's making a clever remark - except that he can't qualify himself. _______________ This is not the place to look for me |
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Rainer - Student |
Because murder is a sin, and killing yourself is murder. Plus I wouldn't be able to at least attempt to spread the good news. You didn't say anything contrustive at all, just 'go kill yourself and see God." Funny you haven't said anything to refute my comments on the Big Bang, nor my previous comments concerning the authenticity of the Bible. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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Sindweller - Ex-Student 
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if you like god so much why not just kill youslef and see him??? _______________ with great force comes with great power Do things slowly.you'll get big achievment seek for challenge...move forward abit does'nt hurt that much--advisor |
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Rainer - Student |
I would suggest the books "the Case for Christ" and "the Case for Faith." There are compelling evidences for the Christian faith that both atheists and Christians ignore. One funny thing I would like to say about the Big Bang Theory. If the mass of the sun was compacted into the size of the earth, it would have an escape velocity greater than the speed of light. Anyone who has taken Physics can tell you that no matter can go faster than the speed of light. It gets even better when you consider that we aren't just talking something like the sun, or the size of the earth, we are talking about all the matter in the universe, all compacted not to the size of a molecule, not to the size of an atom, but to a single point in space. If any sort of explosion happened the matter would not be able to escape itself. As I stated before evolution isn't a case of Creation vs Evolution, its a case of Science vs Evolution. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on Nov 18 2003 12:16am. |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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I ponder the reasons for exsistance often. Instead of finding answers, I find more questions. I just can't accept the thought of something that has no begining or end, just doesn't seem possible. I tend to think logically most of the time. To me, in a maze of possible answers, the simplest one is usually tends to right. However, in a subject such as this it's not that easy. Whats more logical: an almighty God created everything from his will, that we are his children, that he has a paradice waiting for us when we die. Or that we are a small spec of life that erupted under the right circumstances, and after death...thats it. Sometimes i can't dicide, or don't want to. Now whats it mean when I'm not sure about heaven, but I fear of Hell. I'm not sure of any kind of after life, but can sometimes feel my dead loved ones watching over me. When I don't believe in God, but I fear him. It's like being torn in two directions. Both paths give me little comfort. I don't wanna sound like some fruitcake about to snap or anything. I'm a very mellow person. Layed back. Major change from the hell raiser I was when I was younger. My father studied for 2 years to become a priest, but changed his mind when he was told he couldn't have children. So I was taught the bible. Why it didn't take I don't know. I've always been the type of person that had to see something for myself before I would believe it. So I guess I'll find out the answers when I die. _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON  .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
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Menaxia - Student 
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That's precisely the point. Humour me for a second - God has no beginning, and no end. Therefore he IS infinity. As for big bang theory; I believe it too. But what made the Big Bang? It is entirely possible to believe in God and accept science at the same time. _______________ This is not the place to look for me |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student
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I believe in what I can see. And I've never seen GOD or any of his "Miracles". I believe in science. Like Darthmaul says, the Big Bang type theory. That itself is amazing to think about. Easier for me at least, than GOD, the almighty who has always been and will always be. If there is a GOD, then I'm pissed that our existance is just his little science experiment. My main question to him would be "why?". Why make anything? Why do you exist? Who made you?(god)Where did anything that has ever existed begin? I can't have faith or belive in a GOD that leaves more questions than answers. I am fascinated with space and "infinity". In a world where everything has an end, it's hard to imagine something that doesn't, or so we believe. People sometimes bath themselves in the idea that they are SO important, when in reality, they/we are just another ant in the hill. The Bible: A book or several books actually. Writen by the prophets of jesus christ. My Idea: Prophets leading people to believe in these "miracles" in order to strengthen the numbers in their religon. _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
This comment was edited by Vasper Ba'xian on Nov 15 2003 11:10pm. |
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Badger Hat - Student 
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First of all, I do believe that Christ came to Earth to save us from sin, That Hell is a real place, with real fire, and we are going there for eternity unless we are saved. I don't want to start a big debate, partly because I don't have time, so I will not say all that I believe. We cannot study this through science, because no one has recorded the beginning of the Earth. God formed it, and all of creation points to him. _______________ RL bro to HawkJedi Chuck Norris pwns!(duh) Proud member of Yeah, it's a hat. |
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Menaxia - Student
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Sared- I'm sry but yr logic chromosome wise is very flawed. Speaking from a Biologists' view point: It doesn't matter how many chromosomes you have. What does matter is how much genetic information is carried on each one. Species such as the fern is very gene poor. It's genes are spaced VERY far apart, unlike arbadopsis (mouse eared cress - a popular model organism for scientific study), has a very compact and gene rich genome, with only 5 chromosomes. Common ancestry is shown by having loads of chromosomes and the like, because the sequences are all very similar, and they arise from replication errors when a cell divides. If such errors do not reduce the plant's ability to survive, then they will persist. With another 'hat' on: Being a Catholic and believeing strongly in a creator, the afterlife etc - I find that the more I study Biology, the more evidence i find for the existance of God. There is far too much order in the universe occurring by pure chance for anythig to 'just happen'. BUT Sared - you cannot use a subject you know nothing about to try and justify your point of view... _______________ This is not the place to look for me This comment was edited by Menaxia on Nov 11 2003 05:11pm. |
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Bandit - Student 
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Doppelgänger, you stated in your last sentence that your beliefs are not up for debate, well, ALL my beliefs are up for debate. I question any and all beliefs I hold. That is how I came to not believe in a god in the first place. I can't understand anyone refusing to even question a held belief. Why would you hold fast to a belief unless you had analyzed it and could then feel comfortable that it was true? _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Doppelgänger - Student 
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Though I can not tell you that I believe my religion to be the sole truth in regards to what Jesus thought he was I can tell you what I've read and believe to be a possibility and why I accept that possibility as being more than pure fiction. According to my religion as a Logistical Baptist which is nearly completely different from any other type of Baptist we believe that Jesus Christ was the "son" of God much like other types of religion. What this means is Jesus was (in today's standards for conception of a human) a "freak of nature'". He was conceived without the add of a male sperm donor yet solely with the genetics of his Jewish mother Mary. Jesus soul like ours is a derivative of God (the creator) however God was also Jesus himself though it is not explained very clearly how the trinity of God/soul/Jesus were all in existence before all things were made it is accepted as a possibility due to the complex nature of the space time continuum. God created Jesus as an amends to mankind's wrong doings stemming back to Adam and Eves fall in the Garden of Eden. Which in turn poisoned the bodies of all Adam and Eves descendants so that human bodies would die where as before humans were immortal beings. Jesus being meant as a "sacrifice" from God to pay for the sins of mankind so that human souls would not have to parish in "the lake of fire" which human souls are naturally bound to. By accepting Jesus/God into your soul you are attaching yourself to a collective of souls that are attached to God. In turn you can no longer be bound to this universe and it's doom of parishing into "the lake of fire". However those who do not accept this "gift" (Jesus and/or God) into their souls is still connected to this universe and will be destroyed with it. I feel that explaining Jesus resurrection when you clearly know of it is irrelevant but I will explain some. When Jesus died he had to visit hell (Sheol) and "the lake of fire" the reasons for this was because Jesus truly had to suffer as any human soul would in the natural order of human death without interference from God. This act was to "pay for our sins" as well as bring souls back that had not had the chance to know or accept God into their souls. His resurrection was because he had finished the task of saving lost souls in those places and it was his job then to take them to heaven. I believe that the 500+ people that seen him ascend are not lying nor delusional at the time. The account was clearly and vastly documented despite oppression. These are my opinions based on my religion. I've done the best I could to answer your questions in a timely short post but it is difficult to put years of research in a short readable post. I do not intend to come back and read any further post nor have I read any posts that have been made by anyone else other than Ranja's first one. My beliefs are not up for debate and I never wish to debate anyone else's views and opinions.  _______________ "Look not back in anger, nor forward in fear But around you in awareness." Ross Hersey |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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I'm not knowledgeable myself to debate the whole "Life spun itself together out of pure chance". Personally I think it is impossible for this beautiful planet which is believed by man to be floating around for millions or billions of years could have possibly formed into what mankind has been a witness to. This planet has an almost uncountable number of plants and animals each which almost had a perfect balance in the world before we came along and messed that up. Now maybe, just maybe under the right conditions, it might be possible to create life although it all sounds really chaotic to me reading all of the post that were for this choice. And lets say that out of this puddle or pond or what ever hole it was life crawled out of began evolving. By the way, as far back as man kind has made documentation and with all of our scientists and our supreme knowledge, we have never witnessed or proven that evolution exists. Okay, but let's just say that life started to evolve in this hole and then found it's way onto land being plant because animals would most likely need food to survive. So now we have plants starting to spread across the world but it would most likely be one or maybe two species of plants being that evolution doesn't happen that often. Now some could argue that plants too could evolve and just to tickle them, let say the do before covering the whole face of the planet because it was also a popular believe that the land was once one mass. So BAMM we kick it up a knotch and say that plants evolve and start spreading maybe a total of 4 or 5 species at best. At this point I can help but wonder how many thousands or millions of years it would take for plants to spread from one coast to the other, (thinking of one land mass). I don't emagine that it would take that long but in any event, soon the planets surface would be covered with a small number of what ever species of plants there are I guess breathing carbon that the world passed into it's atmosphere. So now we'll get generous and say that animals either evolved from the plants or started their way up out of the same hole and the soil would or should have enough nutrience from plants living and dying and they begin to spread out and evolve and spread out and evolve until we have a small number of plants and a much smaller number of animals actually living on land. I don't know if anyone else notices this, but when I go on a nature walk, which I know has been disturbed by man but very minimal, I see lots of trees, smaller plants in the forms of bushes and vines and even smaller plants and flowers. All of these living almost in a perfect harmony with one another. How could it come to this? I would imagine the firsts of the plant world just growing on away with almost no limitation except for habitat or climate. Now is it possible that in an area where plants are present and fixed for other plants to be dominant and start taking over? Ever try growing a tree in a field? Can't just drop a few seeds in the ground and watch it grow. It needs the right environment and conditions to grow. Planting stuff is not easy, nor do you find an abundance of grass growing in wooded areas. Not enough sun and water for it to be that way. So what evolutionist are saying is that with all these chaotic spurts of evolution, which hasn't even been proven, just in the plant world alone that it can by chance form into this amazingly complexed and well balanced display like we see today? Highly unlikely and if not impossible. Same goes for the animal kingdom. Think about all the different species of animals and how they coexisted in a well balanced manner before man started screwing it up. How is it possible that evolution and dumb chance started, sustained, and well balanced all of the different species? And think about how complexed one animal is. Are we really that ignorant to where we can say, "Yeah with enough time and chance this beautiful specimen that we have before us with it's incredible natural instincts and natural defenses which it has a full working knowledge on how to use has forged it's way into it's surroundings and has become one with the awesome balance of nature."? Think about all of the cells in one creature all working together to make that creature what it is. Can we really truely believe that man can come from single celled organisms? Well, personally I don't believe that out of so much chaos and dumb luck that this world can become the wonderful world we all have right before us. To a certain degree I can agree with Sared on his statement of how creation is a testimony to God, but I'm not sure as to how nature can tell us the Son of God's name for the Bible will be quick to tell us that by no other name can a man find themselves to be saved. The Bible is the true testimony to God and through it He saves. Just my opinion with my admittance to my ignorance in the whole debate. I hope I have pointed out some valid points. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down. 
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Nov 07 2003 07:22pm. |
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n00b - Student 
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Its all combinatorics. It is generally accepted that the universe exists. The universe exists and we know that life can exist within the universe from observation and our self-awareness. It is highly improbable that elements in the universe could join together to form life, although we know it at least has happened once. The real question is whether or not a mind conceived life or that it just happened on its own. It is improbable but not impossible for life to appear by chance. We have not been able to reproduce the formation of life in the laboratory, but that doesn't mean nobody will ever be able to. It is plainly obvious to me that out of the awful odds that life could appear, it did. We are part of this living world and it seems amazing that we are here. We ask the questions, but nobody can answer them 100% truthfully. We make up a creator to explain the existence of life, but nobody saw the creation process. We have been here for a brief moment in the lifespan of the universe. Given the time, given the materials, the energy, the odds go up that life could exist by chance. We have no idea how many times or in how many places life had better odds of existing than right here. Someday we'll know the answer to what probability it has of showing up. We are made purely from stardust. Just like what's said at a funeral- ashes to ashes, dust to dust. _______________ Gone but hopefully not forgotten... |
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Bandit - Student
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Sared, you stated : "The fact of the matter is, every human being can, will, and has had a chance to know God. Creation itself it a testimony to Him, so none has an excuse." I respectfully disagree. I think that fact that we are arguing about how we came to be is in fact an indication that it is not such an obvious answer to EVERY HUMAN. In fact, this is one of my objections to there being a God. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then he knows PRECISELY what I am thinking, what I will be thinking, and what exactly would make me believe in His existance. However, the mere fact that I don't feel there is enough evidence for His existance, implies that either 1) he is intentionally keeping himself unknown to me or 2) he is not the God of which most conceptualize. If He wants us to believe in Him out of faith, then that argument would not apply. However, that still makes no sense to me... Why would an all-powerful, all-knowing being create man after His image, only to not fail to let them know he exists? If He really wanted to give us Free Will to make a choice, then He would let us know what the all the options really are... _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Sared - Retired 
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Gonna post this, then will read some more. Aratan: He IS a merciful God. Otherwise I would be a smoldering pile of cinders right now. The fact of the matter is, every human being can, will, and has had a chance to know God. Creation itself it a testimony to Him, so none has an excuse. Look at the human eye. Then look at the photoreceptive sensor on a protozoa. A protozoa has the ability to sense light and to go toward it. Now step it up a little. A frog or an ape has the ability to recognize complex objects and to perceive them. The human eye can see in three dimensions. It then sends this picture to the brain and then translate it, turn it upside down, and recognize it for what it is. The similarity of functions between the human eye and a frog eye does not show common ancestry. Rather, it shows a common Creator. Here is another thought. To be human, you have thirty-two pair, or sixty four chromosomes. If you have sixty-three or sixty-two, then you will still be human, but you will have a life condition like down syndrome. If you have sixty-six or sixty-two chromosomes, you are NOT human. Period. Now think about it, if we followed our course of 'evolution', and have developed, say, a third brain lobe or, the ability to see into the ultraviolet or infrared spectrums, wouldn't we have a few more chromosomes? Well... I have found such a creature! Yes! Ladies and gentlemen, I am proud to present to you, the one, the only, North American Fern! That right people! This plant has fuzzy leaflets, the ability to grow in nice warm climates, has a beautiful shade of green, and packs a whopping 152 chromosomes! Think about it. If we were to double our chromosomes, we would turn into the much sought after state of evolution, a plant! Somethings tells me that God didn't intend for us to sit around absorbing sunlight and water, while using photosynthesis to turn that wonderful schtuff into yummy gluclose! _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. This comment was edited by Sared on Oct 29 2003 03:28am. |
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Rainer - Student |
First off, I don't believe that anyone burns in Hell. The use of the word flames seems figurative. The Bible says that the Lake of Fire is the Second Judgement. It also says that death will be thrown into it, thus a judgement on death. Other references to flames seem to be symbolic of judgement. When Christ returns is he going to have a double edged sword coming out of his mouth and his body enshrouded with flames? No, those things are figurative, and the flames again are representing judgement. Don't get me wrong, every figure of speech has a literal meaning, so there is going to be great suffering, but its not going to be torture in the sense that someone or something is administrating it. Hell is a place of separation from God, this eternal separation brings about grief and emotional suffering that will be equivalent to the suffering of flames. The concept of Hell as a place of separation, and not a place of torture is crucial to understanding this. Once we sinned, God had a problem. The nature of an 'all powerful' being is that he cannot contradict himself. God cannot be in the presence of Sin. The payment for sin is death, not only mere physical death but also spiritual death. So what is God to do? He is a loving God, but at the same time He is a righteous God. His very nature destroys the sinful, but the people He loves are sinful. The answer? He sends His Son down in bodily form, and He goes around, spreading God’s Word. Satan sees this, and what a chance! God has put His only Son in Satan’s domain-now Jesus has to play by his rules! Satan uses Pilot, Herod, and other political leaders to try and kill Him. With Herod he fails, but he ultimately triumphs-and oh what a triumph it was. Not only did he kill Him, but he did so in glorious fashion. Humiliation, suffering, a cry to his father, the works! Wait a minute, he’s taking on the sins of the world, and in doing this anyone who asks can have forgiveness through him. Satan can no longer take souls with him to hell so easily, but who cares? Satan just killed the embodiment of God, who in their right mind would believe in a God who died at the hands of mortals, even if he was in bodily form. But to Satan’s dismay Jesus visited hell for merely three days before breaking out resurrected affirming his deity. The righteousness of God was fulfilled with his sacrifice, and now the loving God is free to accept all who ask for forgiveness. Why didn't God only create those who would love him? If you are forced to love someone, is that really love? The only way for there to truly be love is if there is a possibility for hate. Sin is a perversion of what God created as good. As far as suffering in the world, I would have to say that its cause is sin. I'm not saying that because you sin you will suffer, I'm definitely not saying that. Rather I'm saying that suffering is a product of sin. If someone chooses to sin and tortures someone else, the torture causes suffering. That’s a more drastic version of what I'm saying. If you want replace the word sin with unethical behavior, because some people seem to have a problem when you say sin because your alluding to something Biblical. Bandit - That’s a good question. I have not personally read those works but I know someone who most likely has. I'll talk with him and get back to you. Aratan - It is truly wrong that people try and scare other people into believing in Christ. It saddens me that there are people who go out and just say, "Follow Christ or go to Hell!" There are so many other aspects of it, and you can even rationalize your way into believing in Christ. In my opinion the concept is flawed anyway. Your saying you want to make them believe in Christ. You can't make anyone believe anything, the choice on what to believe is theirs. The only thing you do by telling everybody they're going to Hell is make them feel like they're being manipulated. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on Oct 28 2003 11:09pm. |
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Orion - Retired 
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Man things are getting creepy I agree with aratan again :/ _______________ When a Man lies he murder's some part of the world. These are the pale deaths which men misscall there lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer. Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home? -Cliff Burton Owner of Smily's 1900th comment | <Lady_Catherine> i love your sexy white socks! | (Lady_Catherine) i adore u! | (Lady_Catherine) onion (Lady_Catherine) i lub u |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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LMAO CT!! Me too!! _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
I just have one thing to comment: "Now, even after all this evidence proving science wrong, you still believe that you're right: Even if you're right, and I'm wrong, we both die, and become dust and that's it. On the other hand, if I'm right, then I go to heaven, and you burn in hell with satan for eternity. So which do you think is the safer choice? Just think about it." I've often seen people say God is merciful; if he is, then why should he let atheists burn in Hell, just because they don't believe in him? That seems quite mean to me, but I might be mistaken. Also, are you saying it's better to go for the safe bet? If you have to be frightened of the alternative to join a religion, then there's something wrong. |
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Cloaked Thunder - Student 
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Wow..... I have read a few posts and I must say, I'm not even going to begin posting. I will sit back and watch every1 else. _______________ Padawan of ShadowSith | Close JA Family: Darth Mobility, Katan, Jedi Prodigy, Virtue,D@rth M@ul, Virtue, Flash, Bandit, Yin Yang, JK-XIII, Faded, Silk Monkey, Skyler, `Orion, Aratan, SmilyKrazy, Faded Angel, and your mom  | woot!
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Bandit - Student 
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Perhaps you are right Ranja. At least the scope of the debate should be narrowed. There are simply too many points, such a wide breadth of material to cover, in such a forum. Quick question though.. Have you read any of the account of Jesus in the Nag Hammadi library? If so, how do you reconcile the mystical perspective that the gnostics held of Jesus with that of the early Catholic Church? Why are the Gnostics accounts discarded just because the early Catholic Church decided which books to cannonize? Surely the veracity of the Gnostics accounts and the Nag Hammadi library should not be questioned any more than the rest of the books that were chosen to be cannonized. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Bandit - Student
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DarkSith, you stated "If you are going to make a claim about Christian beliefs, then at least be accurate. Never has anyone said that everything has to have a creator..." I'm sorry if I assumed this is what you were trying to say, but indeed, many people (and certainly some Christians) *DO* argue that everything has to have a creator (First Cause). I've had numerous debates over this very thing. I realize now that you were not trying to argue this position, but, it is a position argued by quite a few. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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I would just like to ask everybody just joining our discussion to please go back to the beginning and read the full context of this forum. I think there have been many great posts here and some even can shed a little light to what is being discussed right now. Ranja, I have read on one of your earlier posts that you think only Calvinist's have the point of view that there is no free choice in excepting Christ. I have heard of Calvin and his teachings but never schooled myself in them, yet I believe this statement that nobody has free will to worship God. I trust in the Bible and the Bible alone as my foundation and pillar of truth and the Bible teaches that God chose those which He would have to be His people before the foundation of the Earth. I touched the scriptures on this fact in earlier posts and will do a study on it if you wish. After all, don't all of us seek truth? To Gentleman Loser I read on one of your earlier posts that you seek proof of mericles. Now the type of mericles that Jesus and His disciples performed from the Biblical view, (Healing of the sick, lame, blind, deaf, crippled, dumb[as in mute], and even raising the dead), were pictures or signs pointing to the spiritual healings that mankind needs today. Healing for the spiritually sick, (as in sin sick souls), spiritually lame, blind, deaf, crippled, dumb, and even spiritually dead for the penalty for sin is death. Does the Bible mean physical death? I don't believe so because the Bible is clear that there is two types of death's and God tells man, or probably more acturately believers, do no fear them that can destroy the boby but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul. The Bible teaches that the saved of Christ will upon dying go to be with Him in all of His glory and return with Him on the last day to judge the living and the dead. It is the soul that is resurrected by Christ and on the last day, all saved by His grace will receive new bodies that don't lust after sin which will perfectly compliment their born again souls that no longer lust for sin. Your proof of mericles can be seen all around you, but probably not where your looking. The churches and congregations of today aren't 100% right with the Bible nor is everyone that goes to one saved. However, we can find convicts, rapist, murderers, slanderers, and other horrible people have a sudden change in them to where they see the error in their ways. They actually repent of their sins and never desire to do them ever again. Not just people behind bars, but in every walk of life where the Word of God is being proclaimed, people are becoming saved and turning from their self centered ways. The spiritually blind are receiving spiritual eyes to where they can actually see God's Word. I'm not saying that everyone who picks up a Bible and studies it will learn all there is to learn nor will they receive spiritual eyes to see it. It's God's work to open one's eyes and ears to see and hear His Word. So to that fact, I would have to say that the mericles that you are looking for will never be found unless you come to an understanding that the physical wellbeing of man isn't what is important. The Bible is quick to tell us that one can have the whole world and yet they would have nothing if they weren't saved. Life is but a very small drop in the ocean of eternity so what does one actually receive in ones lifetime. No one can take anything from the world with them. To Darksith, I'm only asking you this in the most humble manner. This goes for all who would like to say that they know the way and they know it all concerning God and Jesus. Please read the Bible very carefully, especially the new testiment. The old testiment holds to the truths of the Bible as well although they can be a little harder to see. Your statement that Christ came to pay for EVERYONE's sins are totally contrary to what God says in His Word. Again please read my earlier posts for scripture that would highlight this fact and I would be happy to do a study on it to be posted here if you would like to know where to look for these scriptures. After all, it's a discussion on Christ we're having here and I think that would be a great look into His character being that in Him dwells the Godhead bodily. To Bandit and others which their very scientific views on everything, I'm ignorant to that type of debate. I will just leave writtings from another authur dealing with the Bible's historical evidence. The Bible tells about things before they happen. The prophet Isaiah talks about the Persian king Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1), who would eventually restore the nation of Judah. Persia was a great kingdom, located in what is now the country of Iran. Isaiah wrote during the reign of the Judaean king Hezekiah, who died in 687 B.C., but Cyrus did not begin to reign as king of the Persian empire until after 600 B.C., more than 80 years after Isaiah left the scene. Only God could know the name of the man who would be the Persian king before he sat on the throne. Many historical prophecies of Jesus Christ were given 1,000 years before His birth. Every Old Testament book of the Bible refers clearly to Jesus. For example, notice the detail of Psalm 22, Isaiah 53, and Micah 5:2. Faced with this historical evidence, we have only the following options. Either the Bible was written by Him for whom time is no barrier, or it is a joke, or it is a hoax in which people later scribbled in the prophecies to make the Bible look good, or it is an evil deception. The right choice is that the Bible alone is God's hold and true Word. The only thing I can suggest for those who don't believe in a God or thee God is to read the Bible. Check it out. I think I was told by someone that if a person were to read just one chapter in the Bible, which really isn't that much at all, a day that after 3 or so years they would have read the whole thing. Read it with what ever view of it you like, just read it. It truely is an amazing book that I believe could have only been written by God Himself through man. If someone suggested for me to read a book because I might profit something from it, I probably would even more if I could do it over a couple of years. It won't hurt anyone and at the very least, you waist some of your time in reading it but so what. We all waist time watching tv, playing games, posting on forums, etc.. Seriously, if there really isn't a God, or a afterlife or anything like that, then as stated earlier we will all just become dust. If we can spend time to debate/discuss, then I think we can search out all angles of it also. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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