| Jesus Christ | |
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Rainer - Student |
Plain and simple, I want your opinions on the following things. Please give me reasons behind your beliefs. I may or may not post my standings on the matter. I just recently resigned from such a topic on another forum because it was taking up too much of my time writing replies. I've just grown curious about how the people of the Academy view Jesus, especially after seeing MINDofSIN's profile pic. Your beliefs regarding him. - Are you a Christian? If so, why? Oh and if your an agnostic, I would rather this conversation stray away from a long debate on whether or not the truth on the matter is knowable. For this topic the term Christian should be applied to someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and who has committed their life to Him. Who was He? - This includes who do you think He thought He was. If you state that He thought Himself to be a prophet, give me reasons. If you state He thought himself to be God, again, give me reasons. If you state he never existed, you best present evidence on the matter because that is easily refuted. What of his Resurrection? - The most important story of Christianity, without this Christian Faith is in vain. Refute it or Defend it. Please make sure you are actually refuting it or defending it, and that you are not just making empty comments. I do not want an analysis of Christianity or religions in general. I do however want an analysis of Jesus Christ Himself, be Him man or God. I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again, do not make empty comments. Oh yeah, and be civil. The last thing I want is a flame war between believers and non-believers. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This post was edited by Rainer on Oct 10 2003 05:12pm. |
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Katan - Student 
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"Is not the LORD perfect? He is" Wait wait wait wait.........lol I cant ever remember anyone ever saying that the lord was perfect. How can we say that? Lets say for the sake of this example, that God did infact create Humans. Wouldnt that make us perfect, since God is perfect? I know some people are going to say to me "God wanted us to learn from our mistakes" Thats not good enough for me. I have to disagree with what Kow said about God being perfect (whether the bible says it or not) We cant prove he was, so therefor we shouldnt really say that..... just my 00.02 cents. No attack ment on anyone, just stating my belief... _______________ |
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Sared - Retired 
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Too busy/lazy to post/read. Jesus pwns; 'Nuff said.  _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Katan - Student
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"I'm born and raised Jewish" Damn you DJ, I was going to use that line "You can only count on yourself, not some man who died ~2000 years ago. I believe there is no afterlife and we need to live here to make the world a better place for the sake of making the world a better place, not for any reward after we die." Damn you again DJ But in all seriousness, what do I think of Jesus.....I am part believer and part non-religious believer. I do not believe Jesus was the messiah (As many Jews Joke, if he was the messiah, did he just mess up the first two times?) I believe he was infact, a prophet, just not the messiah. Another part of me says We live, we die, End of Story. As DJ said, we cant count on a guy who live oh so long ago. I dont expect for Jesus to come back and bring world peace. Thats OUR job, not a man who lived long ago. We should be trying to make the world alittle more peaceful, instead of waiting for someone to come and make it happen. I have a questions for all Christians, who have studied deeply in the bible/ect. This is not an attack, nor am I trying to change your belief, just a question, since I have never had a chance to ask anyone, who would know, nor look for myself. Did the bible ever say how Jesus would come, and "bring peace to the world"? I have pondered this, would he just pop outa the ground and say "Let there be peace!" and the whole world became peaceful? Just wondering, if someone could clear up that fact for me, if its possible to clear up..... _______________ |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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Ok, I will put up the correct translations for ya! Let me throw out a question to my *active* Catholic friends (I used to be one myself). Why do Catholics believe that if a baby dies without being baptized, the baby will go to hell? Is God not a just God? I know that the baby would go straight to the Celestial Kingdom. Why? Because the baby had no evil intentions in his/her heart. Another question that goes for many religions. Why baptize as a baby/young age? Isn't that trampling upon Man's Free Agency? |
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Ulic |retired| - Student 
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Long live the Mithras Cult! Does anyone know what that is? _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
*waves the atheist flag around a bit* |
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Bandit - Student 
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*Bandit winks at his fellow atheists and agnostics* *Bandit winks at everyone else*  _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) This comment was edited by Bandit on Oct 14 2003 04:55pm. |
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Mockran - Ex-Student 
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*looks around and smiles that his fellow brother Christians exist in the JA* *smiles at the everyone else* _______________ Life is Something that Happens when You can't Get to Sleep. Everybody Lies, but it Doesn't Matter Because Nobody Listens. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
I want the Nordic religion back.  |
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YinYang - Ex-Student 
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2nd that cause Koyi RULES when it comes to these types of things _______________ Sister to Smily,Axion,and CT Friend to ALL... SMILY, LUKE,MAGRA,AND KOYI RULE!!!!! . . : :There is ALWAYS 2 Yin and Yang , Good and Evil: : . . |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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KOYI RULES!!!!!!!!!!! _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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Khalek[JAP] - Ex-Student ![Khalek[JAP]](/image_thumbnail.php?f_type=users&f_width=70&f_height=50&f_image=4155.jpg&f_odd=1)
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I love threads like this, especially when they haven't become agressive. I am a literary student, and fall somewhere between the crack of agnosticism and atheism. I particularly like whoever mentioned the fingerprints of God, because it is that sort of thing that tilts me between these two views (I'll quickly drop in that whereas an atheist denies the existence of the divine, an agnostic believes only in the material...there is a difference...if there is physical proof then an agnostic believes - and given that our definitions of proof differ, one can be an agnostic Christian, technically). If I had to be absolutely precise with my definition of my belief, it would be that I am an Empiricist (note that there is a slight difference between the philosophical and mathematical definitions). By this, I mean that I base my decision solely upon my experience - If I do not know, I either find out or base my decision upon a guess (which is in turn based upon the network of basic concepts and interlocked ideas that we sometimes call our moral framework). OK, so as I go through life, I become better, more morally developed, in addition to more skilled (Note that it is how you respond to the world around you that determines experience, not simply age). The willingness to admit that we were wrong is essential to grow. What I particularly like about many Christians today is their open-mindedness. Throughout history, there have been example of mass-scale tragedies, particularly genocide and violent discrimination, that can be laid at the feet of religion. Let me put that in a less inflammatory way - religious people have made mistakes just like everyone else. Mistakes are a form of learning, and we must make mistakes in order to progress.I have several Christian friends who do not react in the traditional way to these comments; they accept that there is the potential for religion to be misused, and I accept in turn that it is not religion that is at fault here, but peoples' own mistakes. While it may shock some people to hear me call wars 'mistakes,' I assure you I am not being dismissive - there are travesties of human conduct ocurring today as there have always been, but humanity is learning, and trying. Most people know on a basic level that to kill is wrong, but how? Atheists (using the broad umbrella here, forgive me) will say either that it is developed by reason, or by social causes. I would argue that the social causes are the true indicator - there have been MANY societies throughout history where murder of one kind or another has not only been accepted, but required. Therefore, I argue that anyone who believes (As I do, just in case I didn't make that clear) that murder is wrong has, at some stage, been told that this is so...reason may affirm the belief, but it doesn't create it. Whether it is God or social mores that dictate this concept, it has the same effect. I find that reassuring, as I believe that it means that there is nothing wrong with either point of view, on this issue (I would argue that this is the overall case, but I am only using this one example here...). Let me summarise my point - that if a person is religious is unimportant to me, as long as they act in good conscience. It is not required that someone be Christian to follow the tenets of Faith, Hope, Love - and nor is it wrong to follow the Christian path to these ideals.  I will add one NB here, and that is on the definitions of words such as atheism (or aetheism). I am VERY interested in linguistics and word meanings vs. word origins, and personally prefer to use words in accepted common usage, rather than argue that there is a 'true' meanning to a word. This makes a difference to how I parse the words I use, as it does with all of us. Even if it appears that you agree wholeheartedly with another person, from a thread, you may not due to meaning...this is a recurrent issue in literary criticism and theology based upon the textual. Therefore we must remember that one atheist will not be any more like his/her 'fellow' atheists than all Christians are the same. While generalisations are useful in order to put across a point, do take such statements with the metaphorical (and mythical) pinch of salt. If I call something you believe in a myth, it does NOT mean that I am attacking your beliefs, but that I am speaking about religion as being the same TO THE OUTSIDER as greek/norse/mayan/etc. religion, which are now referred to as myths. A religion that has died out is as relevant to an atheist as any dominant religion today, if we go from this basis. _______________ Brother to HW and Kyp Durron, padawan of the almiiiighty NFF. Traitor to the family and keeper of the LOLlipops (poisoned and otherwise). Jello's unwanted second cousin. Vladarion's moral lesser http://www.crazyfray.co.uk/home.htm - major update coming soon, yeah right.... £3.00 to be pledged so far to the JA fund... Just type PLEDGE ME UP KHALEK in any interesting post, and if it passes the funkolology test, 50p goes in the kitty... This one's for Jacen... http://www.bash.org/?7838
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Sared-> Tsk, I was right, we all know you English-speaking guys change foreign names, *cough*Marcus Antonius/Marc Anthony*cough*. Moby-> GJ. If you're ever gonna convince someone there is a god, don't use the Bible. To be honest, it's useless when it comes to convincing atheists, you need to involve science. Anyways, I just have a question to that, since I'm not completely sure, but do you believe in one God for everything? Or is he restricted to the Earth? Because, if the later is the case, then how can you explain bacterias on Mars (please disregard this question if it is as I think, #1)? PS: Thanks for not ignoring my post, it took so damn long to write that. |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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I love these types of Forums. I hope there's a lot more of them to come in the future. BTW, I'm engaged in a Bible study and will be posting more soon on this forum. *Koyi looks out at those who disagree with his scripture posts* Oh, and by the way. If your concerned about the scriptures I posted about the damnation of the world or how there is none that are righteous, just have God pick up the context of what He was saying in Romans chapter 3:1-8. Romans 3:9-20 is what I posted earlier and Psalm chapters 14 and 53 speak for themselves as well. In Psalms 53:2 we read: 2) God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. We will let God speak without my commentary because I feel He says it best. If the scriptures of the King James Bible are incorrect, please post with the correct translation in the future for I know it isn't a perfect translation, but one of the best. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
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To clarify. I never said I was Athiest. I believe in the existence of a higher power. After all someone had to get the ball rolling. edit: Oh yeah I just saw the trailer for The Passion (Mel Gibson's movie about Jesus). Looks interesting. For those more in the know on Jesus what's your take on it? _______________ My car is made of Nerf. This comment was edited by DJ Sith on Oct 14 2003 07:09am. |
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Sared - Retired
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Will go back and read your post in a second here DM, I just had to throw this out real quick to lighten the mood of anyone that may be taking this thread the wrong way. I was reading on the main Catholic web site and found an Indulgence (look it up, I am lazy ) that essentially said that you would be forgiven even if you had sex with the Virgin Mary. Now I have all the love in the world for my Catholic brothers but this cracks me up two ways. First, that this would be the worst sin that you could commit, and second, that it goes against the Catholic view of Mary perpetually being a virgin. Like I said, not to be taken seriously at all. If you, please disregard this post as rubbish and pay no attention to my ramblings. The braying and neighing of barnyard animals follows. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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/me hugs Koyi and my fellow Christian Mates. *turns to the atheists with compassion. Proof of God - Intelligent Design What would constitute objective proof of God? Well, consider the following self-evident and universally recognized truth: Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer. It's simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself. We know that design necessitates a designer. In fact, in accordance with this fundamental axiom, design detection methodology is a prerequisite in many fields of human endeavor, including archaeology, anthropology, forensics, criminal jurisprudence, copyright law, patent law, reverse engineering, crypto analysis, random number generation, and SETI. And how do we recognize intelligent design? In general, we find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of the presence of intelligent design. Chance can explain complexity alone but not specification -- a random sequence of letters is complex but not specified (it's meaningless). A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified (it's meaningful). We can't have a Shakespearean sonnet without Shakespeare. (William A. Dembski, The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities, 1998.) Proof of God - Nature So where's the proof of God's existence? In accordance with our familiar axiom and in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics and information theory, the proof of God is all around us! Through the microscope, we observe the E. coli bacterial flagellum. The bacterial flagellum is what propels E. coli bacteria through its microscopic world. It consists of about 40 individual protein parts including a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It's a microscopic outboard motor! The individual parts come into focus when magnified 50,000 times (using electron micrographs). And even though these microscopic outboard motors run at an incredible 100,000 rpm, they can stop on a microscopic dime. It takes only a quarter turn for them to stop, shift directions and start spinning 100,000 rpm in the opposite direction! The flagellar motor has two gears (forward and reverse), is water-cooled, and is hardwired into a signal transduction (sensory mechanism) so that it receives feedback from its environment. ("Unlocking the Mystery of Life," video documentary by Illustra Media, 2002.) When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to biologic systems (living creatures), we find it reasonable to infer the presence intelligent design. Take, for example, the bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design. Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.) The bacterial flagellum (not to mention the irreducibly complex molecular machines responsible for the flagellum's assembly) is just one example of the specified complexity that pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1986, p. 250.) Proof of God - His Fingerprints are Everywhere Where is the proof of God? If we're willing to open our eyes, we'll see the fingerprints of God all around us and all throughout us. Our very existence proves the existence of a Creator God. In conclusion.....Where there is a plan, there is a planner, where there is a design there is a designer, and where there is a miracle, THERE IS A GOD. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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Sared - Retired
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Jacen: No offense man, but they were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Though Paul is credited for writing a majority of the New Testament. Okay, now for something seroius. ------------------------------------------------- "Remember when he entered a temple and destroyed (in lack of a better word) things, supposedly because the priests were not true to God (or something, can't remember the details, and I don't have a Bible to look it up )? According to that show, it was more likely because the temple paid taxes to the Romans, so it was a political target, not a religious one." ------------------------------------------------- Whos image is upon this coin? He asked his disciples. Ceasers. They replied. Then render that whis is Ceaser's unto Ceaser, and render what is God's unto God. Here we see Jesus teaching the disciples (side note, this term disciples does not refer to the Twelve, rather, it refers to the mass mulitude that followed him. This group is commonly refered to as 'the disiples', while the Twelve are normally refrenced to by thier individual names.) that they should pay thier taxes, should obey the Roman government, and should (in general) respect the authorities. Was he a political activist? Perhaps. But on a much different level than you are thinking. The Bible states clearly that Jesus attacked because of salesmen and barterers that had turned the temple into a market, a Bazaar. Think of it from his perspective (to the best of your ability). Imagine that your father is a just and kind Emperor, and has a grand home made of silver and gold and precious stones. Now, picture that a bunch of greedy, cheating, money-grubbing salesmen brought in thier wares and set up shop. Would you appreciate it? What kind of reaction would you have? Here they are turning the house of a great and honorable man, your FATHER, into dirty, greasy Wal-Mart. He drove the men out in a just rage. (yes, this IS a recording of premeditaded assault in the Bible. ) In fact, he even sat outside the temple making the whip while eyeing the men inside. Kinda like looking into a Wal-Mart next to the front door while cleaning and loading the gun. Make sense? Love the man. Hate the sin. Still love ya bro, and I don't think any less of you because of anything. P.S. Jesus PWNS. 'Nuff said. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. This comment was edited by Sared on Oct 14 2003 04:53am. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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Koyi, I didn't read it all. But do you believe in the Bible? If so, you certainly do not understand them, for they truly testify of Christ. Your quotes are horrible. I'm sure when it Said there is none righteous, they were speaking of a civilization. You must remember, there are many mistakes in the scriptural translation. I would be happy to provide anybody with a set of scriptures which has been translated correctly. How were they translated correctly? Well the King James version is pretty good, but there are obviously some missing gaps. For instance, in Exodus 32:14 it says "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people" ?!?! Is not the LORD perfect? He is. So was the mistake made you ask? Simple. Mistranslation or whoever translated it didn't want the real thing in there. Ever think of that? The pharisees who crucified Christ were the first to translate the Bible. hmmm...Let's see how Joseph Smith translated that shall we? "And the LORD said unto MOses, If they will repent of the evil which they have done, I will spare them, and turn away my fierce warth; but, behold thou shalt execute judgement upon all that will not repent of this evil this day. Therefore, see thou do this thing that I have commanded thee, or I will execute all that which I had thought to do unto my people." Seems a little more accurate, no? Thought so I guess I won't go into my religion cuz the creator of this post didn't ask for that (wanna ammend that i-forget-your-name?) But Jesus Christ truly does live. I'm sorry to hear you're athiest DJ. I do not believe you can find happiness if you do not seek the kingdom of God |
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 - Student |
For the sake of the children, I won't even BEGIN on Christianity. All you'll see is drug and drink influenced rage. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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Jesus Christ was the only begotton Son of God. He created the Earth, came to it in the meridian of time, and atoned for our sins. He rose three days after he was crucified. This I have a testimony of. http://www.mormon.org Mormons Rock |
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Bandit - Student 
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The burden of proof is always on those making the positive assertion. In this case, the burden is on those asserting there is a God. Proving a negative is next to impossible in almost any situation and certainly in this endeavor. I could no more prove there is not a God, than I could prove that vampires don't exist. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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D@RtHM@UL - Student 
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Damn, This is gonna take me atleast 15 min to read again since ill get distracted for sure. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Since there hasn't exactly been the greatest amount of atheists to post in this thread, I might as well go ahead and do it. Sorry if the post isn't too good, I'm kinda tired. No, I'm not a Christian. I'm an atheist, and pretty much as pure in that way as they come. I have yet to see real evidence of any higher power than yourself. 'Miracles', you say? Couldn't they just as well be due to human involvement/coincidence? I have a hard time believing every little miracle is due to a god watching us all. Moby, you said you had rational answers to everything. Please, do explain these so-called miracles. I'd like to know what you (or others) think about them. I basically believe in facts, death, human corruption, and myself. The only one who can help me, is myself. If I get myself into some mess, then it's up to me to get myself out of it again. I can only count on me, and very few trusted people (emphasize few). Facts, I believe in too, things which has been established and you can't argue with. And death, as it is the end of all. No after-life, only death. I dare say death is the only thing in this World you can count on for sure. I must admit, those Romans 3:10-20 Koyi presented to us, are some of the very few things in the Bible I can agree with. That is the way of human nature, and you can't stop it. Deceit, lies, war, destruction, it is what humans do. There are of course bright spots, and not all are like that, but I doubt any on these boards can disagree with 'evil' (note: I write 'evil' because I don't believe in TRUE evil, from all perspectives. Every action will be good from some point, the only difference is, it can be evil by the perspective of MOST) is what humans do. Anyways, on to the next question: I have no problem believing Jesus lived. What I DO have problems with believing, is that he was the son of God (don't worry, I'll spare you for a long rant about God and his existance.... for now). What if he was nothing but a good healer? What if the 4 writers (sorry, my knowledge of all this is rusty, I mean those who wrote about Jesus, ie, Lucas, Matthew(?), etc) exaggerated? What if they decided to make it a bit prettier than it was in reality? Or, possibly, what if it was after-editted to fit the demands of this new religion called Christianity? I saw a very good show on the Discovery Channel, I think it was called 'The Real Jesus'. Very interresting. They went in-depth with the Bible, practically disected some parts of it by comparing it with a Jewish book (not sure if it was their version of the Bible, can't remember its name). They, amongst others, told how Jesus was likely to have been a political activist, wanting to get the Romans out of the country. Remember when he entered a temple and destroyed (in lack of a better word) things, supposedly because the priests were not true to God (or something, can't remember the details, and I don't have a Bible to look it up )? According to that show, it was more likely because the temple paid taxes to the Romans, so it was a political target, not a religious one.And the same goes for Pontius Pilatus, who sentenced Jesus to death by popular demand. It was said that he pittied Jesus, and gave him mercy. With what we know of the ancient Romans (I won't make a list of the 'evil' things they did), is it likely he pittied a politically dangerous man? I doubt so. As said, it was a very interresting show, but it's been a long time since I saw it, so sorry if what I've written seems incomplete. And for the third, and final, question: As for the resurrection of Jesus, I must say, I have no really good answer to this. I might be able to find one, but not right now, unfortunately. All I can say is, I don't believe it to have happened, and there is only one explanation I can come up with right now, which would cover why the tomb was empty: Graverobbers. We know they were common back then. Would it be so weird if they decided to rob the grave? Perhaps they had heard rumors of this King of Men, and wanted to check it out? Well, I'll let you know if I find something (yes, I know it sounds like I'm trying to come up with a good logical explanation, because I want to reject the idea of him resurrecting, but my brain doesn't work that well without breakfast, so sorry about that ).I know much of what I have said is nothing but speculations, but the problem with religion is, none of us will know for sure 'till we're dead, and by that time, who cares? We can't tell the living anyway (btw, I still don't believe in anything after death). Also, sorry if I went kinda off-topic, this subject is interresting, imo, so I kinda easily go off-topic. EDIT: Whoa, this is without doubt one of the longest (relevant ) posts I've ever made.EDIT2: Damn you, Koyi, you posted while I was typing! Well, I might edit/re-post when I've read your post. So this post does *not* concern Koyi's latest. This comment was edited by Jacen Aratan on Oct 12 2003 09:08am. |
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D@RtHM@UL - Student
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LoL Koyi placing such a long comments is bad enough, but that you place is twice is just 3v1l This comment was edited by D@RtHM@UL on Oct 12 2003 09:06am. |
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