| Jesus Christ | |
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Rainer - Student |
Plain and simple, I want your opinions on the following things. Please give me reasons behind your beliefs. I may or may not post my standings on the matter. I just recently resigned from such a topic on another forum because it was taking up too much of my time writing replies. I've just grown curious about how the people of the Academy view Jesus, especially after seeing MINDofSIN's profile pic. Your beliefs regarding him. - Are you a Christian? If so, why? Oh and if your an agnostic, I would rather this conversation stray away from a long debate on whether or not the truth on the matter is knowable. For this topic the term Christian should be applied to someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and who has committed their life to Him. Who was He? - This includes who do you think He thought He was. If you state that He thought Himself to be a prophet, give me reasons. If you state He thought himself to be God, again, give me reasons. If you state he never existed, you best present evidence on the matter because that is easily refuted. What of his Resurrection? - The most important story of Christianity, without this Christian Faith is in vain. Refute it or Defend it. Please make sure you are actually refuting it or defending it, and that you are not just making empty comments. I do not want an analysis of Christianity or religions in general. I do however want an analysis of Jesus Christ Himself, be Him man or God. I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again, do not make empty comments. Oh yeah, and be civil. The last thing I want is a flame war between believers and non-believers. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This post was edited by Rainer on Oct 10 2003 05:12pm. |
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Ulic |retired| - Student 
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hearhear I think all religions see God as the goodness among them. _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Octavius - Ex-Student 
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here's my spin. I was sent to a baptist school, and lived with my grandfather, a reverand for 40 years.... I'm also a senior at USF, history major. My problem is in fact, History. If Jesus was born during the reign of Caeasr Agustas,(lets just say 2000 years ago for the sake of argument) what happened to all the other people who died before him? Some people say, "They were protected under the old law" the abrahamic coventent.... ok still....what happenned to say the indians? Or the peoples of Australia, or Africa, or peoples of Europe before hand. I believe the Bible can teach you many wonderful things about the world, others, yourself and God. But I also believe Jewish, Islamic, Buddist, Hindu, and Daosit writings and beliefs are also wonderful leassons. I think its important to see 'God' everywhere, not just in one religion. _______________ What we do in life, echoes in eternity. |
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Ulic |retired| - Student
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There is a huge difference between the very early Christians in Judaea, the audience that knew the code in the bible, and the Roman christians who followed Paul and were so brutally slaughtered. Paul was a huge 'fan' of Jesus. He was personally converted by him and because his enthusiasm to spread his beliefs he invented a lot. He altered the original religion. The christians who we're ready to die for their religion we're in a way followers of a different religion than the original Christians. Where they believed directly in the miracles Jesus performed, the original Christians knew how to interpret them. Christianity split very early in the original Christians, the Western Christians (including the Celtic Church began by Joseph of Arimethea) and the Roman Christians. _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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i would love to comment but i cant speak about something or someone i do not believe in ........ _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are 
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Ulic. I don't entirely believe your statement to be true about for those who have ears. I may be wrong however, but I will discuss what I know. You were focusing on the new testament when you said that, but the old testament has scriptures that connect very well with that. Prophesies about people having eyes but they cannot see, having ears but cannot hear, all highlighted and brought to truth when Jesus came and illustrated this with the Pharisees. Here we had the handlers of God's Word and spiritual leaders of the temples back and Jesus Himself called them blind and deaf and even children of their father the devil or satan. God's spirit never entered into them and applied His Word to their hearts and they never became saved. They were blind leading the blind. This has been found in the churches of today even from the book of Revelation. People can have a desire to want to be saved, but none can do this task for it is all God's work that He must do. Churches set up by spiritually blind men are very much like the temples that were run by the Pharasees back in Jesus's day. They may look very pleasing and accurate, but with careful study of the Bible they can be shown to have set up their own doctrines and religious practices that are all together against God's Word. As for what I can barely recall from memory, most of those scriptures about having ears to hear were in the parables. Reason for that is because a parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. They show much knowledge and wisdom of God, His believers, the Kingdom of Heaven, God's Laws, and so much more but no one can truely gain absolute truth or understanding of these passages without God opening their spiritual eyes and ears. Now this is just my belief and my stand point. I've never research what you have suggested so I'm ignorant to it very much so, but I will also like to point out that thousands upon thousands of Christians were slaughtered for their beliefs in Christ. God has charged His believers with the task of sending His Word to all nations. I really don't think a true believer would be placing hidden passages or meanings in their writtings if they are so ready to die for God. And with absolute faith in God being a true believer, everything that they wrote was written by God's Spirit moving them. With total trust in His Word a believer would trust everything written within. With that said, a believer who believes the Bible is truely the Word of God would also believe that God wrote it because God tells us that holy men of old spoke as God Spirit moved them. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down. 
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Ranja. I just can't help but to ask where do you find the book of Thomas anyway? I ask because I believe it was you who had the knowledge of either the book of James or something actually being Jacob or Joshua and I was wondering if Thomas is Titus or something like that. I think it's probably out of a church's bible. Let me know if and when you get a chance. Thanks. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Rainer - Student |
Let me just say that Thomas has no context whatsoever. It is a list of sayings. I don't see how anyone could come to attempt to build a doctrine off of Thomas. There really isn't anything wrong with it except for the last couple of verses, and those aren't even in our earliest manuscripts. It is just very dangerous to make a doctrine without the proper context, "Text without context becomes a pretext for a prooftext." This is why I wouldn't include the Gospel of Thomas in the Bible, and I'm certain it was the same with the original canon. As to any other comments-I'm tired and want to go to bed... nighty night. EDIT: Josephus - "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." This extra-biblical quote from Josephus shows the belief that Jesus is Christ. There are similar extra-biblical quotes from Tacitus, a roman historian, and Pliny the Younger, a persecutor of Christians. I can't pull the verse out of the back of my head but there is a very early manuscript containing a few verses that affirm early belief in the ressurection. Mark itself was written to the Gentiles in Rome, I doubt that it would be littered with codes yet we see the same statements about his Miracles in his Gospel. There is the problem of the brusque ending to Mark (if you don't include the last few verses which are possibly not part of the original composition.) Still you see the same miracles presented. I find it hard to discredit the authenticity of the Bible because of how little time there was between the earliest manuscripts we have and the actual events that happened. If myth should occur in such a short amount of time, with the many manuscripts we have to support its authenticity, it would be the first time in history for something to happen like that. Again I can't grab the numbers from the back of my head to give you a comparison but the New Testament has more evidence supporting its authenticity than any other work of antiquity. Now... I really gotta go to bed _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on Jan 20 2004 06:31am. |
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Ulic |retired| - Student 
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bump _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Ulic |retired| - Student
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Yes, I agree that the prophecies were the most important factor in the very beginning of Christianity. The Jews of Judaea believed in very old prophecies concerning the heirs of King David. John the Baptist was well on his way in fullfilling the prophecies untill he was beheaded. Then Jesus took over. When one reads the Bible one must consider two things. 1. Especially the New Testament was written in the Roman time, the time of prosecution. It was therefore necessary to use metafores in order to fool the Romans. In the Bible, these episodes are marked by the words: For those who have ears to hear. Meaning that only the ones who knew the codes (the Jews) would know what it said. The Catholic Church forgot the code and this is the reason for the belief in some miracles. 2. The Catholic church has altered the texts of the New Testament heavily. When the New Testament was composed the Church wanted only the gospels of apostles of Jesus in it. However, because they didn't like the information in the Philip and Thomas gospels, they were destroyed and replaced by those from Mark and Luke who were not apostles. The Catholic church's preaching is heavily altered from the belief of the first Christians by in the beginning St. Paul, then Constantine the Great, and then the countless concilies and dogmas. _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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All I have to say is unless someone picks up the Bible, reads in very carefully cover to cover, compares scriptures with scriptures, and with God's wonderful blessing one can come to see that this wonderful book was truely written by God. There is no way I can believe a whole powerful nation of people would follow these scriptures without the actual accounts and prophesies coming true. Things that are highly fictional are quickly dismissed in this time and age and I don't think it would be any different if not worse back then. Some man can easily write any type of book about anything against anything and that will easily lead people to wonder where truth lies. I trust the Bible because of it's prophesies of old that were told and came true, because of it's prophesies concerning things of this day and age and it's accuracy is scary. People should really invest at least a tiny amount of time in the Bible every week just to check it out. I'm not asking anyone to give it a hardcore study, but just for it's historical stories it's a good read. Maybe God will bless those who read His Word and they will see what I'm talking about. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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_cmad_ - Ex-Student 
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I'm not a really religious person, and I think that's nothing to be ashamed of... I am an orthodox christian, not because I chose to but because my parents are. I myself believe in science. I don't think that there's something that has forever existed and will never cease to. I think that everything started from something small and became big (like today). I believe that no-one rules anyone else, but everyone is in charge of himself. If you start doing foul things, no-one (not even God) can save you. I also believe in luck. I think that there IS such a force, that helps some, destroys others and does nothing with the rest. I think that EVERYTHING someone has in his/her life is there because of his/her achievements, his/her parents' achievements, etc. etc. and luck. No-one is sure about how right or wrong his/her religion is. My opinion on this is that clever people fabricated a God for a new religion and added many great characteristics to him/her according to the people's likes and dislikes. NO RELIGION IS BETTER THAN THE OTHERS. EVERY RELIGION IS EQUALLY CORRECT. About cults, I think that they are treated wrongly. Someone wants to believe in something, can't he do it? Let's say that he believes in something weird but he claims to be a christian. Let him do so; what is OUR problem? The only religion that should be bannished is Satanism because it inflicts harm on the innocent. My opinion on this? The greatest force in the universe is the nature, and then comes luck (btw: no I don't believe in black cats and broker mirrors and stuff like that). In my opinion, each religion's God is something fabricated to please the people. The evidence may show that the God might really exist, but every religion has evidence about their own beliefs. But still, my passport says I'm a Christian Orthodox... That is my view on religions PS. Religious people please don't be insulted  I don't imply to insult anyone by this post. Everyone has the right to believe in anything he/she wants. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you are. We will never find out... _______________ Your friends of today, are your enemies of tomorrow. |
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Ulic |retired| - Student
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My father bought it somewhere. Laurence Garder Bloodline of the holy grail very interesting, it seems scientifically based but i'm not sure about the author. His official biography states that he is chief templar this, special councillor this, jacobite this, but i can't find where he has studied and that kind of info, only his titles. I found a site of a jacobite organisation that claims his titles are false. I also found a site that claims he is a reptile, a leader of a reptile group that ritually kills children to drink their blood. mmmmm _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam |
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Wolfwood - Student 
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Where did you get that book? (I want to read it) _______________ ~ Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead ~ |
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Ulic |retired| - Student
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I'm reading a very interesting book now by Laurence Gardner called: The Bloodline of the Holy Grail. It relates on the history of Jesus, his brother James (Joseph of Arimethea, Ha Rama Theo meaning the divine highness, after all, they were the heirs of the Davidic royal line) and their ancestors, who founded the royal houses of France, Scotland, England and from whom Charlemagne, King Arthur and Godefroy de Bouillion descend. Quite fascinating. The book begins with an extensive outline of Jesus' life in which the author explains the miracles in the New testament by false interpretations and wrong translations. He sais that Lazarus, was in fact Jesus' apostle Simon Zelotes, a high Judaeic priest who had been excommunicated by the Sandrehin council. He was to be executed and from his imprisonment to his death he was known as 'sick to death'. Jesus then grabbed the authority of a priest (which he was not) and 'raised him from the dead' by exex communicating him and thus saving him. Simon Zelotes later returned the favour by saving Christ from his cross together with Judas Iscariote and Barabbas (his apostle Thaddeus) who were crucified simultaneously. _______________ Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam This comment was edited by Ulic |retired| on Jan 15 2004 07:35am. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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I would have to disagree with that one. You see, in God's Word the Bible, he plainly illustrates for us that it is His spirit that works within us to do His will and His good pleasure. Also He demonstates how satan and the other fallen angels known also as devils can easily cause people to walk astray from God's laws. He also shows us that He has created us for His Glory. He is the potter and we are the clay. He created some of us vessels of mercy and the others vessels of wrath. It is by His great mercy and love that any of us even think to do His will at all. As with the dead man Lazarus. He commanded the dead to come forth and it did just as He commands some of us to follow Him and with His saving grace and Spirit we do. Obediance isn't an option in my mind according to His Word. Wisdom we cannot gain without Him opening our spiritual ears and eyes to His Word. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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The LORD could not make us do as he wishes, he is bound by his word. Our whole existance here is to gain experience, wisdom, and become obedient. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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*bump* |
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Sease Yakcm - Ex-Student 
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The answer is rather simple it seems, yes indeed the question comes down to whether or not God can give Himself limitations. Now that you see that, consider that He could at any time make us do what He wants. That wont happen and in fact it CAN'T happen because God guaranteed He wouldn't. God creates, He doesn't destroy. I don't know that it is part of His being to punish. I beleive that death is absence of Him, therefore we choose to go to hell rather than to Him. Thats another story altogether though. My point is, God does make boundaries that He will not and thus Can Not cross. _______________ "I came here to do two things, kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum." |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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Well, neither is a paradox, but are merely questions to aid in understanding the character of God. I won't pose an answer to the questions quite yet, but you're on the right track. I'll toss the hint that in order to properly answer either question, you need to filter the concepts through the character of God. There are other things that God cannot do. Can you find them, and why? Just remember the character of God filter. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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SedNox - Student 
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comment to bizzy: there is no choise... live exsists off action, reaction!!! _______________ -Evil Clown- "We interrupt this program to increase dramatic tension." Echuu's 1200th comment, D@RtH N00B's 10850th comment, Redeye's 100th and 150th comment. |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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Mostly, those questions would be regarded as a paradox, but it's the formulation itself in: ""If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" Which makes it a riddle, not a paradox. The actual question is, if God can do anything, can he pose limitations upon himself? The answer to the question would thus be: God can do anything, but not everything. Though I am curious what your perspective on it is. Small edit: Actually, the question itself is moot. If you would read the Bible closely, you would find that nowhere does it say God is omniscient, simply omnipresent. Sure, the stories detail His power, but the extent is never highlighted. This comment was edited by Mookie on Nov 25 2003 01:04pm. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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Well, Bizzy and ranja, that IS the point. To sit and ask why. On either side. But, really, to a certain point. I hate the discussions that go on and on in analysis. Think about it for some time, and then move on. Like the question of: "If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" There is a good answer to this, but it is worth debating the question for oneself, instead of my spitting up the answer for people sitting their with their beaks open like birds, waiting for me to vomit up answers. But don't think too hard. Else you'll unravel your own faith. And that's no good. Think hard enough to be certain that you firmly believe in whatever you DO believe in, and quit there. Don't press harder than you know your faith can handle. Here's another one to ponder: "If God can see the future outcomes, what will happen, and KNOWS what will happen...did he still create us in perfection, knowing we would sin, which is imperfection?" They are good questions, and very valuable when you understand the answers (note: ANSWERS, both sides of the coin) to them. Look at what an atheist might say, and tangle with that. Then figure out what a believer would say, and tangle with that. When you have good answers in both sides, you see the picture a lot better. Heh. I've looked at such questions for about 2 years. It is good for people at a certain level of faith. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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SirBizNatch - Student 
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I liked the Matrix Revolutions mostly because of the end part, after the fight between Smith and Neo, when smith asks why Neo fights-because he chooses to. sorry bout that, off topic but ulic reminded me of it.... and about sticking to topic, i think it was covered like in the past hundred posts, so new ideas are prolly open for discussion. _______________ Personal body guard to teh 1337 Jacen Aratan! Midbie Council Memeber||Member of the Almighty FiZZsters This comment was edited by SirBizNatch on Nov 25 2003 03:39am. |
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Rainer - Student |
Ulic, the problem is that not everyone wants to take the time to investigate what they do. When you say, do, or think anything, ask "why?" If you just do that for a day things get a little interesting. You can learn a lot about yourself. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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Ulic Belouve - Student
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You know what? I lot of us have strayed from the initial points made in the topic post (see the permanent post at the top). For this, I apologize. I do not intend to argue, but merely to point out that such is futile on both sides. I will continue the line of discussion in accordance to what was initially asked by the creator of this thread. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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