| Jesus Christ | |
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Rainer - Student |
Plain and simple, I want your opinions on the following things. Please give me reasons behind your beliefs. I may or may not post my standings on the matter. I just recently resigned from such a topic on another forum because it was taking up too much of my time writing replies. I've just grown curious about how the people of the Academy view Jesus, especially after seeing MINDofSIN's profile pic. Your beliefs regarding him. - Are you a Christian? If so, why? Oh and if your an agnostic, I would rather this conversation stray away from a long debate on whether or not the truth on the matter is knowable. For this topic the term Christian should be applied to someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and who has committed their life to Him. Who was He? - This includes who do you think He thought He was. If you state that He thought Himself to be a prophet, give me reasons. If you state He thought himself to be God, again, give me reasons. If you state he never existed, you best present evidence on the matter because that is easily refuted. What of his Resurrection? - The most important story of Christianity, without this Christian Faith is in vain. Refute it or Defend it. Please make sure you are actually refuting it or defending it, and that you are not just making empty comments. I do not want an analysis of Christianity or religions in general. I do however want an analysis of Jesus Christ Himself, be Him man or God. I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again, do not make empty comments. Oh yeah, and be civil. The last thing I want is a flame war between believers and non-believers. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This post was edited by Rainer on Oct 10 2003 05:12pm. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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The LORD could not make us do as he wishes, he is bound by his word. Our whole existance here is to gain experience, wisdom, and become obedient. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student 
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*bump*  |
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Sease Yakcm - Ex-Student 
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The answer is rather simple it seems, yes indeed the question comes down to whether or not God can give Himself limitations. Now that you see that, consider that He could at any time make us do what He wants. That wont happen and in fact it CAN'T happen because God guaranteed He wouldn't. God creates, He doesn't destroy. I don't know that it is part of His being to punish. I beleive that death is absence of Him, therefore we choose to go to hell rather than to Him. Thats another story altogether though. My point is, God does make boundaries that He will not and thus Can Not cross. _______________ "I came here to do two things, kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum." |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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Well, neither is a paradox, but are merely questions to aid in understanding the character of God. I won't pose an answer to the questions quite yet, but you're on the right track. I'll toss the hint that in order to properly answer either question, you need to filter the concepts through the character of God. There are other things that God cannot do. Can you find them, and why? Just remember the character of God filter. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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SedNox - Student 
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comment to bizzy: there is no choise... live exsists off action, reaction!!!  _______________ -Evil Clown- "We interrupt this program to increase dramatic tension." Echuu's 1200th comment, D@RtH N00B's 10850th comment, Redeye's 100th and 150th comment. |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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Mostly, those questions would be regarded as a paradox, but it's the formulation itself in: ""If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" Which makes it a riddle, not a paradox. The actual question is, if God can do anything, can he pose limitations upon himself? The answer to the question would thus be: God can do anything, but not everything. Though I am curious what your perspective on it is. Small edit: Actually, the question itself is moot. If you would read the Bible closely, you would find that nowhere does it say God is omniscient, simply omnipresent. Sure, the stories detail His power, but the extent is never highlighted. This comment was edited by Mookie on Nov 25 2003 01:04pm. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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Well, Bizzy and ranja, that IS the point. To sit and ask why. On either side. But, really, to a certain point. I hate the discussions that go on and on in analysis. Think about it for some time, and then move on. Like the question of: "If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?" There is a good answer to this, but it is worth debating the question for oneself, instead of my spitting up the answer for people sitting their with their beaks open like birds, waiting for me to vomit up answers. But don't think too hard. Else you'll unravel your own faith. And that's no good. Think hard enough to be certain that you firmly believe in whatever you DO believe in, and quit there. Don't press harder than you know your faith can handle. Here's another one to ponder: "If God can see the future outcomes, what will happen, and KNOWS what will happen...did he still create us in perfection, knowing we would sin, which is imperfection?" They are good questions, and very valuable when you understand the answers (note: ANSWERS, both sides of the coin) to them. Look at what an atheist might say, and tangle with that. Then figure out what a believer would say, and tangle with that. When you have good answers in both sides, you see the picture a lot better. Heh. I've looked at such questions for about 2 years. It is good for people at a certain level of faith. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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SirBizNatch - Student 
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I liked the Matrix Revolutions mostly because of the end part, after the fight between Smith and Neo, when smith asks why Neo fights-because he chooses to. sorry bout that, off topic but ulic reminded me of it.... and about sticking to topic, i think it was covered like in the past hundred posts, so new ideas are prolly open for discussion. _______________ Personal body guard to teh 1337 Jacen Aratan! Midbie Council Memeber||Member of the Almighty FiZZsters This comment was edited by SirBizNatch on Nov 25 2003 03:39am. |
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Rainer - Student |
Ulic, the problem is that not everyone wants to take the time to investigate what they do. When you say, do, or think anything, ask "why?" If you just do that for a day things get a little interesting. You can learn a lot about yourself. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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Ulic Belouve - Student
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You know what? I lot of us have strayed from the initial points made in the topic post (see the permanent post at the top). For this, I apologize. I do not intend to argue, but merely to point out that such is futile on both sides. I will continue the line of discussion in accordance to what was initially asked by the creator of this thread. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student
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My point about the wind and all (I wanted to continue, but went out of town) is mostly this: You really can't PROVE a whole lot. You can prove things to a certain degree, and then it is only logical to accept it the rest of the way. Like all the proof for wind....some scientist have measured it, examined the particles, examined pressure changes, etc. But no one has actually SHOWN me the wind, so I can SEE it, but they led me close enough to belive in all of it. The same with many things in this world: atoms, wind, space... So, you can prove things only so far in cases, and have to just decide if one wants to make a logical leap to acceptance or not. So to continue, I merely wanted to point out that people make these "leaps of faith" in believing in a lot of things that are not 100% proven to them. Yet, it is difficult to make such a leap with God. But again, the best scholars can only "prove" God exists up to maybe the 80% level. Still pretty good, but still has some flaws. But, it is still up to each individual to make the leap on way or another. And with God, you can only PROVE Him to the 80% level, bt you can only DISPROVE him to the 70-80% level. No one can ABSOLUTELY prove or disprove God. I've been studying it for over 2 years. So, all I do is throw the tidbits of info I know out there, to help people get closer to that 80% mark. I can talk all I want, and if they still don't believe, they are justified. It is only, at best, 80% proven to them. So yeah, no one will prove either way. But what can be done is doctrinal argumentation, more on HOW to approach faith in God. No one can definitively prove there is a God, and also, no one can difinitively prove what approach to use in worship. But I think it is enjoyable to state different views in a comparative analysis fashion. Lutherans have one view, Catholics another, and there are many others out there too. Each has their value, and are worth examining. Same with the God exists/God does not exist. Each side is merely worth examining at first, and neither side makes more logical sense than the other. That's why it is called faith, simply because you need to have faith in either one side, or the other. So if you believe, show strong faith in that, and share that firmness in your faith, and illustrate what you think are the strong points. If you believe there is no God, be firm in that faith also, but be certain to state what you feel is the logic in that line of faith, and allow yourself to be challenged. Both sides should examine the challenges to their line of faith. I think it is equally foolish to say "I believe in God, enough said." as it is to say "God makes no sense, so I do not believe." Both sides should develop firm stances on their view, as well as be able to defend them, and also to listen to opposing viewpoints. No true believer is close-minded to opposing sides. Nor do they disrespect them. I respect those that do not believe. I don't think it is wrong, but it is simply the line of evidence they accept. I do encourage them to look at the other side, the evidence of their being God, Christ, and heaven, but they still have their free will. God created and respected free will. We, as belivers, should respect it as our maker did. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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I used to be catholic myself. This lifelessness you speak of is called going through the motions. I can tell you that as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (why do ppl call us Mormons?) we know the truth because we FEEL it. We KNOW what is right. Yes, many churches do teach good things...there is a difference between a teacher and a preacher...a preacher practices what he preaches |
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SirBizNatch - Student 
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*Serious Note I was raised Catholic, didnt and dont feel/things that you guys feel/see. Even if I did feel the same way, I really think the way that mass/church is in the Catholic religion is teh suck. Many people go out of routine, not to go and "chat" with God. There is such a empty aura going in mass, people mindlessly chanting memorized lyrics, sitting-standing-sitting-standing-kneeling-standing, people not even LISTENING to the priest, it just seems so lifeless. I don't even think anyone ever told me why we went to church. Can you guys tell me the reason? Anyway, I dont really get religion, but it still teaches good morals and brings people together, so I don't denounce it. PS: Getting in-depth in science to cells and whatnot, the way that everything works does tend to make me think think that life cant have occured naturally though. _______________ Personal body guard to teh 1337 Jacen Aratan! Midbie Council Memeber||Member of the Almighty FiZZsters |
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SirBizNatch - Student
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Meh. Wind is teh suxor. Always blowing rain and snow on me. Im pretty sure there's wind. Always trying to knock me down. *raises fist angrily* ! maybe God is teh wind! *glares angrily at God* All i know about evolution from Jurassic Park - Birds = children of scary dinosaurs _______________ Personal body guard to teh 1337 Jacen Aratan! Midbie Council Memeber||Member of the Almighty FiZZsters This comment was edited by SirBizNatch on Nov 24 2003 03:32am. |
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SaberWeildinKow - Student
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Changing subject... Evolution...The day that I can scatter a deck of cards and they randomly rearrange themselves into a 52 card card-house...that will be the day I will believe in evolution |
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Rainer - Student |
LOL! Cite the verse that says he has a beard. The whole reason Jesus is pictured the way he is, is because the Catholics wanted to make the King happy and painted him to look like him. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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Last time I checked "wind" is caused by air molecules being moved around by the rotation of the Earth. Not spirits flying around like wild banshees'. _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
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You know, Jesus would be much more appealing if he didn't have a beard. |
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doobie - Jedi Council 
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There may be no wind, but there definitely is a spoon! i'm using it right now to eat my ice cream! mmmm, ice cream... _______________ -Academy Leader/Dictator/Defeater of DJ Sith and JACen Solo in the JAK+ Tournament -I do think it (the JA) will help convert dozens, maybe hundreds, to the dork nation... --me |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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What I meant with we'll see is that if there is a heaven or not... If there is an afterlife, or not... That's what I meant, But I wasn't very clear about that _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Bandit - Student 
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"Maybe we will be cast down into hell, maybe we will be alllowed to live in peace in the heavens... At a point we will know, until that time, we can only speculate..." Or option three, we never know because once we die we cease to exist and there is nothing more. Once the brain stops functioning that might be it..the end...the finish...nothing more...nada, etc. Of course, we can't know that either. Bottom line is many people are able to convince themselves of what is fact by what they WANT to believe. Some of us can't. Some people buy into stories without ever really thinking things through to see if they make sense. For example, many people have heard the myth that when you dream of falling and you hit the ground in your dream, you will always die from the shock. Well, this obviously isn't true and it doesn't take much delving into to figure out why. However, just last week I had to explain to several people (we were all in the same involved in the same conversation)why this could not be true. Now, I'm probably done with this thread because it is a fruitless endeavor to try to cover all these issues over and over again. I posted more on this topic earlier in this thread if anyone has any shred of interest in my particular views. Suffice it to say I am not out to change anyone's mind about their beliefs. Only to show that to not believe is as reasonable or even more reasonable that believing. The arrogance of some believers that everyone should see what they believe they see is fascinating but annoying. I hope I am wrong about our universe. I hope there is a God. Even if that means I'm denied going to "heaven". I can see why it is such a comforting belief for the masses... _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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Yes, it may be all speculation... But aren't so many things? Aren't we still speculating behind the real reason of Kennedy's death? Some know they are right, about a big conspiracy behind his death, and they are sure that it is the truth... I know for a fact, that there really is someting like "eternal peace", I believe in God, no matter what And sure, that's speculating, that god is real or not Sure... I agree But think like this... It is not because we don't see the wonders of the Force every day, that it isn't there... If you get my point If there was no God, would there be good? If there is no Satan, would there be evil? Start speculating... You'll know the answer at a point in your life probably around the time of your death... It is at that moment when we will be confronted with the truth. Maybe we will be cast down into hell, maybe we will be alllowed to live in peace in the heavens... At a point we will know, until that time, we can only speculate... _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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SedNox - Student
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ulic its pure speculation what your saying you dont know that for a fact.... _______________ -Evil Clown- "We interrupt this program to increase dramatic tension." Echuu's 1200th comment, D@RtH N00B's 10850th comment, Redeye's 100th and 150th comment. |
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CuZzA - Student 
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i belive in god 'nuff said _______________ - Even if Carlsberg made "w*nkers", Christiano Ronaldo would still be the biggest "w*nker" in the world |
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Ulic Belouve - Student
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Ah, but arguably, God makes himself known to many as well. Some are just ignorant. You could also make the assumption that there are merely spirits in the world that are making themselves known by flying about and being what we call "wind". So why are we so certain that wind exists? Is it, as you say, because it is made known to us? God is made known to us, and I am certain many here will vouch for that. Just at times you choose not to feel it, just like at times you do not feel the wind. Simply because it is not felt, simply because air is not "felt", does not mean it is not there. I do not feel the air in my room, yet, it is there. For some odd reason I believe this. Nor do I feel God at every moment in my life, yet I know He is there, for exactly the same logic that I know that the air is in my room. So there is little flaw in logic here. People will believe in things they cannot see, simply because of the reasoning or proof of others. Also, I have not SEEN the surface of the moon. Yet a select few have, and we believe they have landed there, and believe what science tells us about the moon. We have not seen into the inner workings of an atom, yet we believe what the select few theorists that have made statements on their workings. If seeing is believing, then much of what we believe in unravels. Or do you wish more examples? _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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