| Mel Gibsons PASSION of the CHRIST | |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student  |
Hey All, Moby here. Just wanted to drop a line and see what peoples thoughts are on the new upcoming film by Mel Gibson, The Passion. This movie is about the last 12 hours of Jesus Christ according to the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I for one am thrilled that this movie is coming out. I have seen the trailers. You can too by clicking here http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com What do you guys think? Is Mel on the right track creating this movie? -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. This post was edited by cHoSeN oNe on Mar 09 2004 01:46am. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Which proves that he is no forgiving god, no offense. Is it just me, or is the whole meaning of the forbidden apples thingy weird? I mean, surely the apples themselves weren't that important... whereas I fail to see the symbolics. God tempts humans, just to tempt them? Or what? |
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JamesF1 - Student 
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That was the original plan of God. But, man (namely Adam and Eve) mucked it up. So it was only through man's own actions that we have the bad things on this Earth. _______________ Website |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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yeah  _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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I wish it was like that Plo. _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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Plo Koon - Student
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but dont you all believe that if there was one all powerfull god of everything - wouldnt he make all the terrible things go away? wars,killing,all the sad sad stuff? _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Indeed, I believe that each man must pay for his own sins. A father doesn't pay for his sons nor does his son pay for his fathers. Ezekiel cleared that up. I think that the Bible teaches that if fathers don't teach their sons to fear God and bring them up in His commands, the father is held responsible for that sin alone which is his own sin. I think the scriptures that I posted were pretty clear to the subject and I would like to look into other contradictions if there are any that one would like to look into with me. Just let me know. I do believe that the Bible truely preaches one message. I will admit that I haven't carefully read the whole thing nor have I read it cover to cover, but I love searching the scriptures for truth.  Just curious if anyone still things Exodus and Ezekiel are contradicting each other. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Bandit - Student 
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Quote: Bandit: As I read that - I see that if the child loves God, and obeys the Bible, they will not be punished for their parents sins. But if they do not wish to follow God - and wish to go 'their own way' - then they will be punished for their parent's sins. But, bear in mind, this is the Old Testament and only ever applied to Israel - and even then, only up until Jesus - then there is the New Testament, with laws that override this. In fact, Jesus says, if you repent of your sins before God, he will forget your sins in lieu of the fact that Jesus already died for sin. Okay.  _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Bandit - Student 
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Quote: Bandit Koyi is saying that the kids DO NOT pay for their parents sins. He will explain it again im sure but i had this convo with him tonight actually. Everyone is responsible for their own sins. I wish i was good at explaining things but i will relay to koyi your question. Okay, SK. I read his post correctly, then. I believe I understand his position. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Bandit - Student
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Quote: It takes Faith to beleive ANYTHING we can not taste, touch or feel. (this includes evolution and atheism) ...no...seriously it does... I agree. Although I would say they take different levels of faith. I am really admittedly agnostic, because I know that the question of whether there is a God or not, cannot be answered definitively. While I am inclined to believe there is probably not a God, it would be a statement of faith to say that there is not a God. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Smilykrazy - Retired
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Bandit Koyi is saying that the kids DO NOT pay for their parents sins. He will explain it again im sure but i had this convo with him tonight actually. Everyone is responsible for their own sins. I wish i was good at explaining things but i will relay to koyi your question. _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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... and what about those who choose not to believe? The biggest fault about faith and religion, is that alot of people don't tolerate different beliefs. When Christ comes again, or God comes to my house and drinks all my soda, i'll believe. Until then, i'll stick to faith in myself, and my family and friends. This comment was edited by  on Mar 28 2004 08:59am. |
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JamesF1 - Student
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w00t - Mobeh! _______________ Website |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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Yeah, uh....time for another dropping of a line from moby. JESUS and the Mind of God > All human understanding. It takes Faith to beleive ANYTHING we can not taste, touch or feel. (this includes evolution and atheism) ...no...seriously it does... proceed.......... -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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JamesF1 - Student
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Bandit: As I read that - I see that if the child loves God, and obeys the Bible, they will not be punished for their parents sins. But if they do not wish to follow God - and wish to go 'their own way' - then they will be punished for their parent's sins. But, bear in mind, this is the Old Testament and only ever applied to Israel - and even then, only up until Jesus - then there is the New Testament, with laws that override this. In fact, Jesus says, if you repent of your sins before God, he will forget your sins in lieu of the fact that Jesus already died for sin. _______________ Website |
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Bandit - Student
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DJ, I gotta admit you're right. Guess I should be more careful with my examples. Good news, though... you got me looking through my old college material on symbolic logic and brushing up it. Next time I'll check my examples beforehand...  _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Bandit - Student
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James, so you believe that both verses are consistent in that a child will not be punished for the sins of the parent if they live right and just, correct? But they will be if they do not live right and just? And Koyi, are you saying that the children are not held accountable for the sins of the parent, only the parent is? Just want to make sure I understand your positions and that I haven't misread anything. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Quote:
Quote: JamesF1, can you show how, say...#4, is taken out of context? I'd be interested in knowing. Quote: Ezekiel 18:16-20 He [who] does what I say, he who performs my laws and lives by my statutes. This person wil not die for the sins of the parent; he will live truly and well. But the parent will die for what the parent did, for the sins of oppressing the weak, robbing brothers and sisters and doing what is dead wrong in the community. Do you need to ask, 'So why does the child not share the guilt of the parent?'. Isn't it plain? It's because the child did what was right and fiar. Since the child was careful to do what is lawful and right, the child will live truly and well. The soul that sins is the soul that dies. The child does not share the guilt of the parent, nor the parent the guilt of the child. If you live upright and well, you get the credit; butif you live a wicked life, you are guilty as charged. Taken from 'The Message' translation. Verse 20 highlighted. And now Exodus: Quote: Exodus 20:1-7 God spoke all these words: I am God, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of a life of slavery. No other gods, only me. No carved gods of any size, shape or form of anything whatever, whether of things that fly or walk or swim. Don't bow down to them and don't serve them because I am God, your God and I am a most jealous God, punishing the children for the sins their parents pass on to them to the third and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me. But I'm unswervingly loyal to the thousands who love me and keep my commandments. Taken from 'The Message' translation. Verse 5 highlighted In the King James version, it is worded a little more if not exactely like what Bandit posted. Let us read that again from Exodus 20:5 5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them [worship], nor serve them: for I the LORD you God am a jealous God, visiting [punishing] the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; What I believe is in question and is a contradition is the second half of this verse where it says, "visiting [punishing] the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Let me go back and read verses 3&4 as they complete the commandment. In Exodus 20:3,4 we read: 3)Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4)Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: As it plainly says, God is God and He is a jealous God. We can find more on this a little further in the same book. In Exodus 34:11-17, we can get a better understanding of what God has in view here. In Exodus 34:12-17 we read: 12)Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be fore a snare in the midst of thee: 13)But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: 14)For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: 15)Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after[play the harlot with] their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifices; 16)And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. 17)Thou shalt make thee no molten gods. Here we can see more clearly that He's talking about passing down bad habits and wrong teachings. The father first will sin by taking of the offerings presented to false gods. Then give his daughters and sons to marry the daughters and sons who go a whoring after other gods. To gain a better look at idol's and false gods let us look at the book of Colossians. In Colossians 3:1-11 we can gain a good insight on this but in verses 5-10 we read: 5)Mortify [Put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection [passion], evil concupiscence [desire], and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6)For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7)In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8)But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9)Lie not one to another, weeing that ye have put off the old man with is deeds; 10)And have put on the new man, which s renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: But the key is in verse 5: 5)Mortify [Put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth;......which is idolatry: God commands us not to do these things, but then we go ahead and do them. These things which we lust for and do on a daily become our gods and we become idolators. Most of these things are past down mother to daughter and father to son. This should not be so. Let us turn to Deuteronomy. In Deuteronomy 4:10 and 6:5-7 we read: 4:10)Specially the day that thou shoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make thim hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. 6:5)And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6)And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7)And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. You see? In Exodus 20:5 it isn't saying that the children would be punished for their fathers sins or iniquities. It more or less saying that the children's father's iniquities will be punished. Down to the 3rd and 4th isn't saying that he will suffer for their iniquities, but he is held accountable because his children are out of the way. The verse in Ezekiel is really there just to clear this whole misunderstanding up. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Mar 26 2004 07:15pm. |
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JamesF1 - Student
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Wow - interesting news story!! @Bandit: Yeah, sorry, you must have misread it... _______________ Website |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Go, Mel! _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Bandit - Student
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Well, I'm at work, so I don't have time to reply at the moment. I'll reply on Saturday to DJ's post. JamesF1, I thought you put the quotes into context  I responded to the quotes as being a contradiction even in the context in which you said they were meant to be understood. At least I thought I did. Are you saying my argument is not representative of the proper context because I misread/misinterpreted what you said? I'll look back over and reply on Saturday, also. _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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JamesF1 - Student 
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Bandit: You quoted those verses out of context. And if you actually pay attention to what I said - you'll notice they're not in contradiction at all. Moby Nuhhh-uuuhhhh, Jesus pwns all!!!! _______________ Website |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Sprechst du Deutsch, DJ? Nein? Then speak English..... I hate math. |
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DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
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Quote: For example, if I have two statements that say the following: A) A widow will not assume the debt of her dead husband. B) The debt from a dead husband will pass on to the widow if he was a wicked cruel man. These two statements are a contradiction. Statement A says it will not happen. The other says it will (even with conditions put on it). Mathmatically speaking those 2 terms are not in contradiction. Statements A and B state two things. Let's assign variables and functions to these 2 statements: x: the set of widows y: the set of husbands D(x): A widow assumes the debt of her dead husband C(y): The husband is a wicked and cruel man Statement A states Ax[~D(x)]* or All widows do not assume the debt of her dead husbands. Logically the only contradiction to that is Ex[D(x)]*, or that At least one widow does assume the debt of her husband. Statement B states AxEy[D(x) A C(y)]** or for all widows there are some husbands where that husband is cruel, and the widow inherits his debt. The logical negation of this is AxAy[D(x) A ~C(y)]**: "For all widows and husbands, all husbands are not cruel, and the widow inherits his debt." We can easily see that AxAy[D(x) A ~C(y)] is not equivalent to Ex[D(x)]. Statements A and B state different things and have different contradictions, so Statement A cannot contradict Statement B. Sorry guys. I know facts have no place in organized religion. Just had to make a point. Forgive my interruption. Continue your debate. * I can't type the Upside down "A" or "E" characters, so play along. ** The second "A" character is the logical and operator. No upside down "V"'s on my keyboard hehe. _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
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Bandit - Student
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Eternal_Silence – In my family, it is a moot point. No one in my family considers the bible to be infallible and free of contradictions, except maybe one of my uncles who is what I would call a fundamentalist. However, he and I don’t talk much about it since I’m a heathen damned to the eternal fires of hell I would enjoy reading your replies to each of the stated contradictions, however, I have to be honest and say that I would not reply to each of them. I’m really only interested in showing ONE contradiction. Personally, I feel that the bible would not have to be perfect (even in the original text) even if it was the “word of God”. I find much different (and more rationale reasons, IMHO, to believe there is probably not a God. Anyway, back to point #4. Buzz, even if it is that only some sins carry over, it is still a direct contradiction to the other verse. One plainly says that children will not inherit the sins of their parents, the other verse states that children will. Even if only one sin was ever passed on to a child throughout the history of the world, that would create a contradiction, would it not? For example, if I have two statements that say the following: A) A widow will not assume the debt of her dead husband. B) The debt from a dead husband will pass on to the widow if he was a wicked cruel man. These two statements are a contradiction. Statement A says it will not happen. The other says it will (even with conditions put on it). _______________ Part-Time Player (Weekend Warrior). Recipient of the prestigious "Longest-Post-Ever Award" (bestowed on me by Flash on March 23rd, 2004) |
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Buzz - Student 
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Quote: Exodus 20:1-7 Don't bow down to them and don't serve them because I am God, your God and I am a most jealous God, punishing the children for the sins their parents pass on to them to the third and yes, even to the fourth generation of those who hate me. Is the fact that it says "pass on to them" something important? Could it be that some sins can carry over but others don't? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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