| Fahrenheit 9/11...for the love of freedom of speech (and fluffy bunnies) | |
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3th - Retired  |
go see this movie. i don't care if you hate michael moore, please go see it. thanks. even if it's all lies, or whatever people are saying to discredit the movie, i can't deny the fact that it is a very moving and powerful film. oh and i'll be sure to see the "michael moore hates america" movie when it come out too. only way to be a responsible citizen is to hear all sides, right? let the political flame war begin...i'll be staying out of it. _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! This post was edited by 3th on Jun 30 2004 07:23am. |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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All I'm seeing is 3th talking about the movie and people coming in and making this about politics and/or attack Moore. Here's a word: see the movie, then come back here and discuss. Otherwise your opinion doesn't mean anything: it's unfounded. If you want to discuss presidents, make your own thread. |
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Buzz - Student 
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For the cartoon I was looking more at the witch burnings which didn't happen in the U.S., a bit of the truth on slavery, and the attempts to connect the NRA and KKK. Two groups that were founded by completely opposing groups of people. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student 
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Quote: " A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration." The keyword there is factual. This movie is not. However it is presented in the form of a documentary to make the audience believe that it is. How is it not factual, this is my whole problem with politics. Moore either got this info from somewhere or made it up. I see people on this thread claiming "NO" this is not based on fact. How do you know that? I then go to www.bowlingforthetruth.com to read yet "more" facts which arent backed up anymore than the ones in Moore's movie. Also some of the things they talk about on bowling for the truth. 1.) Buying a gun in a bank. Wow no shit they point out it DID take more than the 2 minutes shown in the movie, guess what so does depositing my pay check. What? The bank also did a background check??? Wow I took the movie for 100% face value I really thought this was the worlds fastest most effiecient bank where dogs and children get guns every hour. 2.) The cartoon in the middle is not 100% truth? The pilgrims didnt land with guns drawn killing everything in site???? No, shit. What do you expect about 200 years of history in about a minute. 3.) Quote: Back to Clinton... Helping prop up his anti-American theme, Moore asks Manson if he knows that on the day of the Columbine murders the United States dropped more bombs on Kosovo than at any other time during this war? Manson: "I do know that and I think that's really ironic, you know, that nobody's said, 'Well, maybe the President (Clinton) had an influence on their violent behavior.' A.) Nonsense: The question also relies on the Columbine shooters being psychic. Since Clinton dropped 'more bombs on Kosovo than at any other time' while the kids were mowing down the students of Columbine - they would have to had somehow metaphysically foreseen this event for it to influence their actions that day. Does Moore actually think that they had earpieces feeding live news reports when they went to school that day? -I checked...they didn't... B.) Double Nonsense: The argument that the president bombing a foreign nation in the interests of America or American allies equates in no conceivable form to personal first hand random murder like those perpetrated at Columbine. This connection is insulting to America besides being ludacris. C.) Uninformed: But facts and details aside -- even the very premise (if presented consistently or honestly) is ludacris. Moore has the incredibly delusional notion that young people today respect and emulate government policy issues that they don't even know about, but that it's silly to think they would emulate the glamorizing violence popular pop culture music sexifies and espouses. Way to spin that, ( im serious that was a good was to spin that facts ) The question is? Did the president bombing another country and showing that sometimes violence is the answer, have an (a/e)ffect on the kids? The answer here is. "Of course not the kids didnt guess that the most bombs would be dropped the day of Columbine, that wasnt even the POINT" The point was the government saw something that would be cover far more than the war. Then decided to use that to blow up some grade schools and hospitals. Is that true? Right like a C.S. in the midwest knows. But the point is; way to spin what Moore/Mason said. But I am I being a hypocrite, didnt I just do the same thing on my last post? 1.) Who cares I reach about 17 people and expect to have about 0.00005% influence on them. This site is trying to discredit a film that millions beleive in ( and hey maybe rightfully ) 2.) Anyone here think I bother to fact check my threads, I do sometimes but for the most part I just write my initial reaction, 1/2 the time I do a piss poor job of spell checking and 1/23 do I even bother to check a fact. _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) |
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Buzz - Student
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People thought Reagan was going to lead us into WW3 by building up military against the Soviet Union. As for that site being an attack on Moore personally. Did you read any of it? Talking to the people about how the bank sequence actually went? Him lying to them and trying to make them look like stupid red neck morons. I particularly liked the dissection of the animated cartoon during the movie about http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/cartoon.htm And as for the websites attacking the quotes moore says and attacking the man...Isn't that exactly what he is doing with Farhenheit 9/11. Pointing out his "vacations". Most of the times I've heard of Bush on vacation and spending time at his ranch in Crawford, I usually hear in the news about another world leader being their also to discuss things. But I guess everyone takes their work with them on vacation. And God forbid Bush would want the press interviewing him on a GOLF COURSE to watch him drive the ball. Its not like he was in the backyard of the Whitehouse swinging his club. A lot of the presidents have played golf in the last 50 years or so. Clinton golfed all the time (and cheated at it too) That website to me seems more like an attack on his movie than the man. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Jun 28 2004 02:10am. |
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D'Loko - Ex-Student 
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You know what. I'm not very amused by propaganda. I look at that site "Bowling for Truth" or other such sites. I see sites that attack a man directly over what he has made. They accuse him of spreading lies, attack his quotes and generally just blame and shame him. This is a man who films things. He adds some commentary, perhaps satirical but never directly attacking anyone. This is why I cannot take these websites seriously. They are propaganda bent on breaking the image around Michael Moore and his success. It is unfair. I read Buzz' post that he is a republican and feels insulted by what I have posted. I admit I was rather harsh on the republican party. I never said Clinton was a good president. All I know is I've never seen this kind of global outrage against the way a president runs office. Clinton's office didn't generate so much hate against his own country. I'm not saying Bush did so either, I'm not even sure he knows what he's doing. I'm not going into any details about what the American government does for their country because all that doesn't really effect me. What does effect me is the way a world is turning against a nation. Maybe that's a bit far-fetched but its not far off. _______________ Owner of the Gradius Telegraphman Award |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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i hate politics  _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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Mookie - Ex-Student
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Quote: If I have to go see F911 before I can bash Michael Moore... That's not what you did.  You bashed F911 by seeing (and having an opinion about) Michael Moore, the exact opposite. |
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Buzz - Student
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I really like that stuff there thanks flux. If I have to go see F911 before I can bash Michael Moore, then anyone who thinks he's telling the truth and doesn't alter and manipulate his films in any way should check that site out. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Flux - Student 
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Interesting. _______________ When great gentlemens come together in a place. It could happen. All these gentlemen are Howard's family. Everybody knows them, but nobody knows. Why they come together.......... Just play cards. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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I would love to comment on this right now. But I have not seen the movie. I am going to see it though, despite my good judgement. I'll report back with the Truth According to Moby. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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Mookie - Ex-Student
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Have you seen the movie, Tido? Could you tell me your exact views on it? |
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Tido - Student 
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" A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration." The keyword there is factual. This movie is not. However it is presented in the form of a documentary to make the audience believe that it is. This comment was edited by Tido on Jun 27 2004 06:46pm. |
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Buzz - Student 
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So you attack people for attacking Michael Moore, and then you go do the same things to Bill O'Reily and Rush Limbaugh? Did you know Moore also had a habit of bashing Clinton. All he is is someone that wants to bitch about how the U.S. Oh as for Clinton's national Healthcare. That pretty much happened in his very first 100 days in office, where he didn't do anything and just let hillary go on about it. And I don't think any of the plans ever came about. So his great healthcare plans did nothing. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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..."Instead of being assholes an attacking "Micheal Moore the person" ( this is known as "attack against the person" and is a logical fallacy)..." Yeah, I notice a lot of people, including Buzz on this thread, but certainly not limited to, using logical fallacies. The Logical Fallacies Guide is your friend. ~Ken |
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(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student
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Quote: This film is presented as a documentary and is all lies. Mr. Moore stretches his freedom of speech a "little" too much. It is freaking rude to present it as it is real and it isnt. There are many naive people who will actually believe it. "Streches his freedom of speech" what next he is going to strech his right to consume free AIR" And this is "presented" as a documentary? Definition of documentray: " A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration." How does this film NOT meet that criteria? Instead of being assholes an attacking "Micheal Moore the person" ( this is known as "attack against the person" and is a logical fallacy which means that the arguement isnt worth its weight in shit ) and try being objective about his film making. Like for example that even though his movies stir up all this controversy and "stuff" they are really NOT that good. Here is the closing from a review I read for Bowling for Columbine that pretty much sums it up. "But when it was all over, all two hours of it, I found myself wanting to ask Michael Moore what it was all meant to add up to, and why it took so long to get there? Moore apparently wanted to tackle everything – from racial stereotypes to U.S. and world realpolitik – but in the process he's made a film that's virtually about nothing except how violent the U.S. is (and, he acknowledges in a hilarious animated history lesson halfway through the film, always has been) and no doubt always will be, guns or no guns. At the end, I found myself mostly wanting Moore to give us that staple of high school essays: A single coherent thesis statement (he gives us at least a dozen possible ones). Then, agree or disagree, I might have found this compelling, appalling, boring, hilarious, frustrating mess to be a real work of documentary genius, rather than an interesting failure." "Most" ( read that _most_ not all, so maybe not you ) people who dont like Micheal Moore a Republican/Conservative which is fine but realize all Micheal Moore does, is spew left wing ideals around just as "Bill O`Reilly" and "Rush Limbaugh" spew out right wing ideals. So basically we are dealing with 3 arogant assholes who think they can solve the whole worlds problems, if given the chance. Doesn anyone else find that freakin hilarious? Rush Limbaugh is probably sitting at home so messed up he is drooling all over himself, and probably couldnt get himself up for work on-time with out help, but he has "all" the answers to the worlds problems. Bill O`Reilly ( man I hate that guy ) Whenever I listen to show all he does is defend President Bush to the point where I am just waiting for him to propose to the guy, then in between that he plugs is terrible book. ( Dont take my word for it, go read the reviews on Amazon ) Lets not forget niether of these 3 has the balls to run for office. _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) |
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Tido - Student
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well, adamn made no specific refrenses..but as for public health insurance (?) I think he is refering to the Welfare Act. Well that was not proposed by Clinton. It was written by the republicans, passed in the house and senate, and then signed by the Pres. He was not the author of that idea. |
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Cortex - Student |
Well... One thing Clinton did, that I believe was beneficial was, that he worked strongly towards public health insurance, a thing that the Bush administration has regretably ignored. Furthermore he took environmental issues very seriuos, examplified by his positive stance towards the Kyoto agreement. I know that his is viewed with some scepticism in USA because of his spectacular personal life, but from a European point of view he was infinately better than George W. Bush. Buzz: I personally don't mean to offend anyone. Discussing politics can be a tricky affair, especially on the internet, as political stance is a very pesonal thing and written statements can seem harder than they were ment. I don't have anything in particular against the republican party, but from my subjective point of view Bush hasn't been very good for USA, a country I'm otherwise quite fond of. So again, let me apologise if I have said something insulting, as that wasn't my intention. I only want to share my personal and subjective view on the debated subject. This comment was edited by Cortex on Jun 27 2004 06:24pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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Yes please show us where Clinton benefitted the U.S. Like his attempts at appeasing North Korea, that resulted in them just trying to blackmail for more money. All the massive layoffs that did occur during his presidency. You don't think the problems with companies like Enron and K-Mart started on Jan. 21 2001 do you. The U.S. economy was already starting to go down when Clinton was in office, so maybe his politics weren't all that good. And I'm kind of insulted that you are saying Republicans are who you should hate. Since I do consider myself to be a Republican. And if you pay attention to the US Elections the margin for a lot of votes between democrats and republicans isn't all that big in most cases. Its not like the final voting numbers in 2000 were Gore 60% and Bush 40% and he still won. As for Moore he is an idiot. I haven't seen the film but from the commercials it seems like he liked to catch republican senators off guard. I don't know what he's asking the guy he just walks up to in the movie but it seems like it might be about congressmen's kids in the military, and that guy has a son over in Afghanistan. I also liked seeing a democrat senator saying that the movie presents an unvarnished view of the truth, and he hadn't even seen it yet. Nothing like being bipartisan to the bitter end. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Tallepyon - Student 
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This film is presented as a documentary and is all lies. Mr. Moore stretches his freedom of speech a "little" too much. It is freaking rude to present it as it is real and it isnt. There are many naive people who will actually believe it. |
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Tido - Student
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Can anyone tell me a change that Clinton enacted that has benefitted America? Like give me a specific action and not a generalization? Just curious. |
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Cortex - Student |
As I am writing about the media coverage of 9/11 in my thesis in philosophy and communication, I am very much looking forward to seeing Mr. Moore's film. As far as I have heard it is more of an attack on George W. Bush and his administration than on USA, which I believe Mr. Moore loves very much. I have to agree with D'Loko, that hating USA is the wrong way to go. In the summer of '97 I went to Boston woth my high school class, and met nothing but friendly and welcoming people (a bit like here ). The country thrived because of Clintons politics, and this was mirrored in the outlook of the population. You can blame Clinton for being a lousy husband, but you can't deny that he was succesful as a president.Bush and his cronies on the other hand has turned the rest of the civilised world against USA because of their unilateral and ignorant politics. The population is living in constant fear because of the massive media spins planned by the Bush administration, and the country in a worse shape than ever. In this regard I have to agree with both Mr. Moore and D'Loko that the Bush administration is to blame, rather than the country as whole. |
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Tido - Student
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D'Loko - Ex-Student
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I haven't seen the film, but I do have something to say about the whole anti-America thing. I don't hate America. As William Shakespear once said, theres a fine line between love and hate, and he's damned right too. I've never loved America thus I can never hate it. I've never been there nor have I researched it or whatever, so I can't really say anything nasty about it at all. All I know is, people outside of America are running around yelling "America sucks!" ever since George W. Bush was (not very fairly, as I've been TOLD) elected president of the United States of America. I can't remember any form of mass anti-America banter in Europe during the Clinton days? I've asked around and no one really can remember any of that. Back then America was cool and when Americans came over to Holland to smoke weed it was something you could laugh about, not frown upon. What I'm trying to say is please stop hating on America, its the Republicans making you hate what should be seen as a beautifull country. Sure it may have its faults, but siht, you try running a country that size perfectly! As soon as the democrats get back into power America can go back to being the country that protects the free world and helps out countries that are in trouble with all the resources and money they can spare! And if a dicator decides to attack us at least we know they'll save us. _______________ Owner of the Gradius Telegraphman Award |
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SedNox - Student 
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i really like to see this one! i saw Bowling for Columbine, and it was really . .damn cant find the word. but he was completly right. i have to wait till it comes in holland _______________ -Evil Clown- "We interrupt this program to increase dramatic tension." Echuu's 1200th comment, D@RtH N00B's 10850th comment, Redeye's 100th and 150th comment. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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haven't seen it yet If I find someone to come with me, I'll go  _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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