| Bible Study | |
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Koyi Donita - Student  |
Yep. Here it is. My first offical Forum and of course it's about my favorite topic, The Bible. Basically, I would like this to be an open forum based on the Bible and the truths held with in. If anyone has any Biblical truths that they would like to share with everyone, I ask for you to please put it up on the table as we will all search for truth in God's Word. If anyone has any questions, maybe collectively we may be able to help them through the Bible God willing. I only ask that if you have no faith or have nothing constructive to post, please respect my wishes and just ignore this forum. All questions from non-believers are welcome as long as you seriously seek God's truth. May God bless us all through his wonderful Word. Quote: For those of you who like, this site has every translation. Plus search, studies, GREAT RESOURCE The Bible Gateway -DM- Thank you Darth Mobility.  _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.  This post was edited by Koyi Donita on Apr 30 2005 05:38pm. |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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That mixes with the argument, is god all powerful or all good. If he is all powerful then surely he cant be good, "Thow knoeth to do good, and thow doeth not, to him it is sin (KJV)" If he is all good than he cant be all powerful, because if he was really good then you know it deep in your heart and mind that anyone who lets anyone get hurt for no apparant reason isn't right. its immoral. So either he doesnt exsist or hes cruel. _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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Koyi, this one is for you: “ That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. ”- Romans 10:9,10 As far as this "Character of God" debate: This question is probably as old as religion itself. It is a stumbling block for some of us, and for many more at given moments of tragedy. There are as many answers to this question as there are people who care to engage in theological dialogue. One understanding is that yes, God allows "bad" things to happen; God does not cause them to happen. Most "bad" things which happen do so because God gives a radical freedom to God's people; we are free people, not puppets on a string. But God does not cause "bad" things to happen. God loves us and grieves with us in our pain when "bad things" happen. Therefore, we might best respond by saying that God does not will "bad" things to happen in life. Rather, "bad" things happen in the freedom that comes with the gift of life. When "bad" things happen to any of God's children, God is grieved and suffers with us, experienced most vividly in the hurt and suffering of Jesus the Christ for all humanity. Any "bad" thing which happens is never the last word. Rather, God is the deepest and last word, and that word is love and eternal life with God. Maybe the question we should ask is, “Is there any purpose to our suffering?” The Bible shares at least four results from suffering. We See How Devastating Evil Can Be When we witness evil in the form of terrible crimes or even when we see a fellow student being teased or abused we are reminded of how devastating evil can be to the human heart and soul. It is a reminder to seek what is good and to seek God. It Helps Develop Character Paul tells us in Romans 5 that suffering helps us to endure, and endurance builds character. Character is the ability to handle tough situations and to help others who are going through similar suffering. To Get Our Attention Sometimes when we are doing the wrong things our Heavenly Father uses suffering to get our attention. He wants to remove everything from our lives that keeps us from walking close to him in a love – faith relationship. So the suffering, as a result of wrong behavior, brings us closer to him or it can make us angry and push us away. When you think of it, it’s silly to get angry with God when we suffer as a direct result of our own behavior. But sometimes suffering is not our fault, what then? To Help Us Understand God There will be times when God allows us to suffer so we can understand how much he is in control and that he is able to work in peoples’ lives. Jesus seemed drawn like a magnet to human grief, sorrow and suffering. God feels hurt and compassion when we suffer, his Spirit works to comfort us and to heal us. Since Christ suffered on the cross for our sins, he understands and cares. Even if we cannot understand the exact whys behind our suffering we can still receive comfort and strength from a God who really understands and cares about us (2 Corinthians 1). Not sure if this helps but I think it explains some of what we are talking about here. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. This comment was edited by DaRtH-MoBiLiTy on Apr 18 2005 05:45pm. |
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Plo Koon - Student
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Exactly, Morality Argument. Quote: Let’s look at what happens when people claim to get absolute morality from a god. I say that such religious absolutists don’t have morality; what they have is a code of obedience, which is not the same. God sets what is supposedly moral, and they obey. If God were to say that murder and theft were moral, people would have to kill and steal to act morally. Actually, this is exactly what is happening with the suicide bombers in the Middle East. This is also what was behind the Crusades, the Inquisitions and 9/11. The fact that we find this so abhorrent shows that morality does not come from a god. God fails the morality test. -from a different site.The Christian Bible has the purported histories of many rapes, slaughters, and other mass killings, most of them apparently condoned by God. They even note how the pregnant women were sliced open (Hosea 13:16) — so much for God being against abortion. In one story that you all know, God drowned almost everyone and everything on the planet merely because he didn’t like the activities of some of the people in his creation. In another story, 42 children were killed in the name of God, just for calling a man bald (2 Kings 2:23-24). In addition, the bible prescribes the death penalty for many supposed “sins” that most of us don’t even consider to be very wrong, such as working on Sunday. Do these tales and penalties show the actions of a loving god? God seems to be more of a capricious, cruel, vindictive, schizophrenic mass murderer than a paragon of moral virtue, and Satan comes off as the good guy. After all, how many people did Satan kill? For those of you who still think that morality should come from the Christian Bible, I ask, what do you think about slavery and child abuse? Not once in the entire Bible is slavery or child abuse condemned, not even in the writings about Jesus. In fact both are condoned in many places. Even Jesus had recommendations about beating and killing slaves (Luke 12:42-48). I would bet that any one of you could do a better job of defining morals than what is in the Bible. The Christian Bible, its god, and its savior all fail the morality test. Jesus died for our sins. This is one of the primary moral points of Christianity, and it is formally known as “substitutive sacrifice.” It was practiced by many religions, when they killed sacrificial animals or humans on altars. What kind of morality is this, where one person has to die because of what others have done? When we look at cultures that sacrificed animals or humans, we call them barbaric and primitive. It makes no difference if the person being sacrificed agrees; it is still blatantly, repugnantly immoral. Using religion as a source for morality completely collapses when we look at religious positions now and in history. There are religious people with different positions on such moral issues as the death penalty, abortion, and women’s rights. How can this be, if they all get the same divine words from the same god? Racism, misogyny, and slavery were once considered perfectly moral by large portions of humankind, and were seen as having a religious basis. Also, the killings done in the name of God, by most religions, are legendary. Thus religion cannot give us the answers to these moral issues. Our culture has changed, along with our laws, and these evils are no longer acceptable in modern society. Morality is a social and legal construct, not a religious one. Religion fails the morality test. I seriusly think that if god would do the things you suggested Koyi, like condeming a person to have sins & hell before they form into a being,then I seriusly dont want to be with a god like that ( he designs and knows what we will do before we are born right?, so then he creates the sinners and torments them for fun). If there WAS a God, then surely he's kinder and better than me. most people tend to confuse god with all powerful or all good. when these cross many things turn into masquerades. The all good god can't be all powerful because if he really cared about us he wouldnt let us get hurt, thow knoeth to do good, and doeth not; to him it is sin(KJV). The all powerful god can't be good because he lets all terrible things happen, so god is either all good or all powerful. Plus surely if there was a god,he'd be better than me so if he lets terrible things happen then hes a cruel, sadistic, evil dictator commander, so he can't exsist BECAUSE I KNOW IF THERE WAS A GOD HE'D BE GOOD AND DO THE RIGHT THING, IF HE REALLY WAS REAL, THAN HE'D BE GOOD. _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Apr 18 2005 05:16pm. |
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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Oh I think I understand now. Let me put forward an argument for you to consider. 1. We are all born sinners. 2. As a newborn baby, you are not capable of grasping the concept of yourself as a seperate identity from your environment. You are merely a bundle of perceptions and instincts. There is no conscious thought. There is no capability to make conscious decisions or choices. 3. Following from 2, a baby cannot choose to not sin. A babys actions are not its own responsibility. 4. Suffering is punishment for our sins. 5. Newborn children sometimes suffer. Following from 4, this is punishment for their sins. 6. Following from 3 and 5, newborn childrena are sometimes punished by God for sins which they made no choice to commit. Put differently: 1. We are all Gods creations. 2. A newborn child is not capable of making choices e.g. to sin or to not sin. 3. If 1 and 2 are true, then God creates beings that are sinners, and have no choice whether they are sinners or not. 4. God then punishes them for being sinners. 5. In summary, God creates sinners who have no choice but to sin, then punishes them for being sinners. I have thought about these arguments for a while, and cant find any logical fault with either of them. I was curious if you could. _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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Koyi, a personal question. Recently, two friends of mine, one who lives by the Bible and one who is gay, have had a major argument because she said the Bible condemns homosexuality. Yet there are a lot of homosexuals in this world that call themselves Christian. Do you consider them to be true Christians, and what is your opinion of homosexuality in general (both men and women)? Is it a product of free will or something set in stone from birth, thereby making it an act of God? |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Quote: All that is all well and good, but it all relies on the premise that evil only happens to those who have sinned. What about those people who suffer what you call the 'wages of sin' who havent actually sinned? How can that be justified, bearing in mind you have already accepted that this suffering is a creation of God? I believe that I posted scriptures on this as well awhile ago, but I will go through my notes and see if I can repost some. The Bible teaches us that from the womb we go astray from what God wants. How can this be? Aren't babies inocent? No, they aren't. They have their own selfish wants and desires with no knowledge or love of God. Is that to say hadicapped people with learning disabilities and childred and babies can't be saved? No, they can be. The Bible is very clear that our works don't save us, it's God's work to save us. Through His Word, God saves His elect. John the baptist leaped with joy in his mothers womb when Mary the mother carrying Jesus in her womb approached. It doesn't take our physical understand of the Word to become saved, but God opening our spiritual eyes and ears to His true message and the giving of the gift of His Spirit for someone to be saved. To say a man has no sin is a very bold statement and should be tested against the law of God. There is none that is righteous, no, not one the Bible tells us. As far as justification goes, it would be like a state passing a new law and people in direct violation of that law being punished. Do we question or rebel against that? Do we fight for those caught in that net and plead for some sort of grace period or something? Truth is most of us accept it with no resistance. Now here we have Almighty God who has established everything and laid down laws for His creation, but we can't accept that? Is it because no one in and of themselves can save themselves and we are all trapped in the same net minus the ones God rescues from it? If I speed and am caught, I plead my case to the officer and happily accept the punishment because I know I'm in the wrong. This is the same thing. I see how I curse and think evil fulfilling the lust of my flesh and to what end? I'm told it's wrong so I accept the punishment, but I am also begging and pleading that I can be let off the hook. God is a merciful God of longsuffering and He would rather see people turned from their evil ways then to destroy them. These are all promises we have in the Bible and I'm sticking to them. God is my hope in a very dark hour and hopefully He will include me with those who are saved. There is no justification. Either you right or wrong when held under the laws of those in power above you. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Gil-Galad - Student 
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All that is all well and good, but it all relies on the premise that evil only happens to those who have sinned. What about those people who suffer what you call the 'wages of sin' who havent actually sinned? How can that be justified, bearing in mind you have already accepted that this suffering is a creation of God? _______________ |JAA| since 02/05/06 Green for life |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Wow. Sorry about the uber long post.  _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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Quote: GOD CREATED EVIL - Isaiah 45:7 (KJV - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." GOD CREATED DISASTER - Isaiah 45:7 (NIV - "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." I don't know if you noticed this or not, but these are the same exact scriptures with different translations. The one I have in the King James goes like this. Isaiah 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create [evil] {calamity}: I the LORD do all these things. Quote: GOD CREATED WICKED PEOPLE - Proverbs 16:4 NAB "The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day." Mine reads: 4) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of [evil]{doom}. From here I would like to take the time to look into other scriptures to get a greater understanding on these, but I would also like to touch on a few ground scriptures first if I could to build my statement on. In Hebrews 13:8 we read: 8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever. This is a bold enough statement showing that Christ has always been the same and always will remain the same. In Colossians 2:9 we read: 9) For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. This scriptures shows us that the fullness of God is in Jesus and tied to the other verse tells us that Christ is God from everlasting past to everlasting future. In John 10:38 and 14:8-11 we read: 10:38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in Him. 14:8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it [sufficeth]{will satisfy} us. 9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, show us the Father? 10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of [myself]{my own authority}: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake. Here we see Jesus questioning and stating that if they have seen Him then they have seen the Father and His words are of the Father that dwells within Him. In Colossians 1:14-15 we read: 14) In whom we have dedemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the [first-born]{first in rank} [of]{over} every creature: Jesus is the image of the invisible God because He is God. In John 1:1, 14 we read: 1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14) And the Word [was made flesh]{became flesh}, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Jesus is the Word of God and the Word of God is shown to be God. It is also shown that all things were created by Him, through Him, and for Him. Let us continue. In John 1:3 we read: 3) All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. In Colossians 1:16-17 we read: 16) For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are [in]{on} earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or [principalities]{rulers}, or [powers]{authorities}: all things were created by Him, and for Him: 17) And He is before all things, and [by Him]{in Him} all things consist. More interesting scriptures pointing to Him creating the worlds/ages/eternity (various translations). In Hebrews 1:2 and 11:3 we read: 1:2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the [worlds]{ages}; 11:3) Through faith we understand that the [worlds]{ages} were [framed]{prepared} by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which [do appear]{are visible}. In Psalm 33:6 we read: 6) By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. Also, touching on evil and the day of evil let us look at scriptures that bring more light to these as far as they are connected to God. I've typed these verses alot and I'll save everyone from reading them again but read Rom. 3:10-20 tells us that No man is righteous or understands anything or seeks after God and goes on to show our true nature and sinful ways. In Romans 6:23 we read: 23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life [through Jesus Christ]{in Christ Jesus} out Lord. This death doesn't mean physical, for the Bible shows it to be the spiritual death better known as the second death or eternal damnation. This condition will start on the last day when Jesus returns to earth and judges the living and the dead. This is what humans should be concerned about for it is the most terrible thing they will ever have to deal with and will be the end all point for it is everylasting. This is truely the day of evil. In Romans 9:9-23 we read about how God creates vessels of wrath fitted to destruction and vessels of mercy which were beforehand prepared unto glory and how children not yet being born, neither having done any good or evil, are set up that the purpose of God according to election might stand. We've been through these verses a few times as well. In Psalm 49:5, 34:21, and 94:23 we read: 49:5) Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall [compass]{surround} me about? 34:21) Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be [desolate]{condemned}. 94:23) And He shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall [cut them off]{destroy them}. All verses highlighting what I have stated earlier about the wages of sin being death and it is by our sins, our evil that this will happen. In Proverbs 13:21 we read: 21) Evil pursueth sinners: but to the righteous good shall be repaid. Reading through the book of Proverbs, alot of it speaks in opposites, the good this - the bad that. Righteousness is repaid with eternal life, wickedness with eternal damnation. Their wages/sins will pursue them. In Ecclesiastes 9:12 we read: 12) For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an [evil]{cruel} net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. In Jeremiah 17:14-18 we read: 14) Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise. 15) Behold, they say unto me, Where is the Word of the LORD? Let it come now. 16) As for me, I have not [hastened]{hurried away} from being a [pastor]{shepherd} to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee. 17) Be not a terror unto me: thou art my hope in the day of [evil]{doom}. 18) Let them be [confounded]{ashamed} that persecute me, but let not me be [confounded]{put to shame}: let them be dismayed, but let not me be dismayed: bring upon them the day of [evil]{doom}, and [destroy]{crush} them with double destruction. Matthew 6:13 we read: 13) And lead us not into temtation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. I've read on another site that temtation can be translated into trial and is in a few churches which would make more sense to me but again, this is not solid truth. The last day is going to be a trial in which we are judged, the day of evil which we hope to be delivered from. This would fit beautifully into the gospel message if this is true. Quote: GOD CREATED ALL GOOD - Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. This verse is before the fall of mankind, the beginning of sin, of death, of pain, and suffering. This isn't to say that Adam and Eve would have never physically died if they never sinned although it is popular belief they they never would have. Their physical death would have just removed them from the garden which they dwelt to live with God in heaven as I see it, but haven't really studied too far into this subject. I may be blind to this so don't take this as truth. Fact is, everthing was good before the rebellion of mankind and the corruption of sin began. This isn't to say that Adam is the blame for us all falling into sin, moreover mankind was removed from the garden and left into the trappings of their own fall as we all foolishly fall into sin on our own account. We have looked at this a few times now and I encourage anyone interested in Adam's sin as well as our own to look back a bit to catch up with us on this subject. Quote: KILL WORSHIPPERS OF OTHER GODS - Exodus 22:20 "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed." I do believe that I did a study on idol worshipping as well which is probably long since buried but again, please look back to read up on this subject. Again, God in this verse isn't commanding His followers to destroy idol worshippers but is letting us know that they will be destroyed. God also says "Vengence belongs to Him" and that we shouldn't judge others or take evil actions against evil which is quoted below as well as in the Bible and possibly other studies on this thread. Him commanding the Israelites to stone people in the Bible I believe is a spiritual picture of the true believers judging the wicked of this world on the last day. True believers are spiritually Jews and I believe the Bible does say that they will judge along with Christ on the last day (don't remember too clearly where I read that). Quote: GOD'S ANGER - Exodus 22:24 [God:] "My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless." CHILD ABUSE - GOD KILLS - Genesis 38:7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death Killing with the sword can be shown to be the Word of God. Being widows and fatherless are terms used throughout the Bible pointing to mankinds condition. We are to be married to Christ and God is to be our father. Both are spiritual meanings. Quote: GOD ACTUALLY WANTS US TO LIVE - Ezekiel 18:32 (NIV) "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live." It is true that the Bible has very violant things in it,Jesus and Yahweh said to love and forgive your enemies, but at other times it was the complete opposite. What do you think about this? This is what I think. I think the mind of God and His Word are way too complex for us to have total truth on. We need to prayerfully ask Him for wisdom and understanding, to open our spiritual eyes and ears to hear the true message behind the scriptures. God is a jealous God and one full of wrath toward wickedness. He judges the wicked righteously in His divine nature and for His own purpose and end. He tells and shows us how we are to live knowing that this is how and what we want from Him being His enemy in a certain respect creating a picture for those who don't have faith showing an example of how God is towards His believers. He demands perfect action in accordance to His Word and will strike down those He doesn't save. That's the dual nature between His scriptures and His messages as I see it. Quote: JESUS, ON ENEMIES - Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be Sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil." Again, what the true believers should practice showing an example, a type, a picture of you will of the nature of God towards His believers. Quote: Personally I think it's very wrong to hurt another human being, Have compassion!. How can one(Jesus) say love your enemies and forgive them, but the lord Jesus was serving put's peoples childrens to death because of their forefathers "wicked mistakes" ? This question should be answered by all prior information. Also, what humans think and believe doesn't necessarly mean that's what God thinks. In Isaiah 55:6-9 we read: 6) Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: 7) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. 8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. As you posted, He doesn't enjoy destroying us, but His perfect law demands it and therefore it is executed with a righteous hatred. Let us all tremble before the Lord for all glory and wisdom and power and praise belong to Him, now and forever more. May the Lord add His blessing to the reading of His Word. Amen. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Plo Koon - Student 
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Maybe if there is a one, all omnipotant, omniscent, free will "all good" Yahweh... when I die and I'm standing before him I would say... "why have you done this,how can you let so much suffering happen, I mean your 3000 year old followers say you flooded and drowned the entire world because you didn't like it!" I would hope he would say... "Im sorry,I work through the butterflies,the birds, the sunshine and the laughing and playing children, im sorry people came and made it all crazy with books and their own crazed plausible thoughts." Oh Mani Padme Hum - Compassion for all living beings. Quote: Blessings aren't just for the ones who kneel...luckily - Bono, U2 _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Apr 15 2005 09:20pm. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student 
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Really hard to formulate an absolute opinion on this one for me. All throughout there Word there are instances where God proves to be Jealous, Vengeful and Wrath bringing. I have always wondered about these things. I do know that in the old testament before Jesus, God certainly had a different personality. Which I have always found odd anyways. I do know that he has a divine plan for all things. I suppose that sometimes in order for the ultimate plan to be fulfilled, it requires things that are seemingly out of character for God. I can't question him, I just trust his judgement. His ways and thoughts are higher than mine. I trust him to always do the right thing, even if I personally can't see the whole picture. I know he does, and that is enough for me. This might not be the most comforting thing I could say and I certainly dont pretend to have the answers to those questions. But I do know that he loves us very much and blesses those who diligently seek him. There are a million things about God that I do know and those things far outway the things I don't. So as for me, I will focus on those things. I dont have to completely understand the mind of God in order to Love him and know that he loves us. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Good and disturbing questions. I'm not sure I have any good answers, but I have some thoughts on the matter. I've always had a problem with the idea of the evil done by the father being visited upon the children--though as a practical matter, that's how it typically works out even if God doesn't do it. As for God creating evil and the related question of God allowing evil to work against us, I've never taken this to mean that God personally works evil in the universe, merely that He is the author of all things and that He gave us free will, which allows us to do evil. The wages of sin is death (Isn't it funny how "wages" is a singular? But anyway...). We all die eventually because we're all sinners, but through Salvation we are promised that death isn't the end. I don't believe that God goes around striking people down, except in a few cases. When He does, I don't always understand why, but I also know that God understands a lot more than I--infinitely more. It's good to question, but sometimes I have to accept that some things about God's plan I'm not going to understand or am not meant to know yet (maybe ever). I believe in a God who mostly lets the chips fall where they may in this life. If I get struck by lightning or killed by a horrible virus, well, my mortality itself is on me, the wages of sin, but the when, where and how I cash in are partly the result of decisions I make (often blind decisions--should I go through door 1 or door 2?) and partly just the luck of the draw. With rare exceptions I don't think that God tinkers with every little event that happens in His universe. He set the world in motion, gave us free will, and is more concerned with our Salvation than with whether are oh-so-short lives turn out to be slightly shorter or slightly longer. A question I hear often is about the tsunami. Did God make the tsunami and kill all those people? Or was God powerless to help? Well I think God created the world and the laws of physics that lead to things like tsunamis, but our mortality is on us. It's all us. The wages of sin is death, and it probably doesn't make a difference to God whether I die in a tsunami or some other way--I'm going to die one way or another, and God is less interested in how I die than with my Salvation. And incidentally, there were early-warning systems in place, which were completely ignored; God gave us the intellect to build those warning systems, and He certainly didn't tell us to ignore them. Again, the free will thing. God loves us, so he permits us free will, even when what we do with our free will is heartbreaking to God. A question that has always disturbed me is the question of David's son, and also of Abraham being ordered to kill his son. These stories disturbed me greatly as a child and all the more so now. But remember God gave his own son for us. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Plo Koon - Student
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Please tell me something about what you think on a few of these biblical quotes,some from Jesus and the word of God himself (if you truly believe in yahweh) GOD CREATED EVIL - Isaiah 45:7 (KJV - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." GOD CREATED WICKED PEOPLE - Proverbs 16:4 NAB "The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day." GOD CREATED DISASTER - Isaiah 45:7 (NIV - "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." KILL WORSHIPPERS OF OTHER GODS - Exodus 22:20 "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed." GOD CREATED ALL GOOD - Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. very good so far... GOD'S ANGER - Exodus 22:24 [God:] "My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless." GOD ACTUALLY WANTS US TO LIVE - Ezekiel 18:32 (NIV) "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live." It is true that the Bible has very violant things in it,Jesus and Yahweh said to love and forgive your enemies, but at other times it was the complete opposite. What do you think about this? JESUS, ON ENEMIES - Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do them good, and lend never despairing; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be Sons of the Most High: for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil." CHILD ABUSE - GOD KILLS - Genesis 38:7 But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death Personally I think it's very wrong to hurt another human being, Have compassion!. How can one(Jesus) say love your enemies and forgive them, but the lord Jesus was serving put's peoples childrens to death because of their forefathers "wicked mistakes" ? _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too This comment was edited by Plo Koon on Apr 15 2005 10:14am. |
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student
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I love this subject. I am glad we are talking about this. I have been studying this ever since I lost my mother just over 10 years ago, here is what I have on the subject... So often I hear people in the world talking about death as the end. Most people do not like to think about going to Heaven because to them it is an ending of their life and they want to enjoy their family life. They believe that in Heaven you will not know your own children or parents, husband or wife. Well, praise God for His Word and His desire to reveal the truth to those who seek it. Because the truth is, we will all know our family and remember our life on earth. If Heaven was really how the natural man imagined (the everybody’s the same, sitting on their little fluffy cloud, knowing nobody, walking in a single file line, laying at the feet of Jesus, saying Holy every second for eternity mentality), then the truth is, I don’t want to go. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not against worshipping Jesus every second for eternity. As a matter of fact, that is what i do now. I can’t go a waking minute without thinking about the goodness of God, communicating with Him or sharing Him with someone around me. The problem that I have is that if I will not be able to have the same kind of relationship with my wife and my child as I do now then it is not much of a Heaven. But I know God personally and I know that this is not His plan. The religious world has distorted the magnificence of God Almighty. You see, Heaven is going to be for the better compared to now. It is not going to get worse. If I lose my family that I worked so hard with to get where we are today, then it would be useless. So let’s take a trip through the Bible and see what we can expect in Heaven when we get there. When God created His everlasting covenant with Abraham, we see a beautiful thing happen. First, this covenant is a family covenant, meant to be spread down the generations of Abraham’s family. Secondly, the Bible says that Abraham was chosen because God knew that he would teach this covenant to his children (Genesis 18:19). God is a family God and He wants to bless you as a family. Later on in the scriptures when Abraham dies, the Bible says that he was gathered to his people (Genesis 25:8). This is life after death! This is not being gathered at a graveyard with his dead relatives. How do we know that? Because the next verse says that after he died, and after he was gathered to his people, then his sons buried his body. Abraham joined together with his people after death. Who is his people? All of them under the Abrahamic covenant, all of them who have died being circumcised (Abrahamic sign of covenant) and his wife Sarah. We see this same event happen when Isaac dies in Genesis 35:29. He gives up the ghost and is gathered to his people (Abrahamic covenant people) and his body is then buried. It is not hard to see that God’s covenant people have a life together after death. Throughout the Word of God people knew this promise of life after death and it is proven in 2 Samuel 12:23. 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." David knew that when he died, he would be gathered to his people and there he would again reunite with his son. You see, the Lord puts this information in the Bible so we can feel comforted with things we have questions on. God’s desire for His covenant people is to bring them into a place of joy and peace. God’s will is to bring His people back into a garden of Eden. In the New Testament (the covenant that brings all, Jews and Gentiles into the Abrahamic covenant), Jesus tells a story about a poor man named Lazarus who died and is gathered to Abraham’s family. The story goes on to tell about a rich young ruler that also dies and is carried off to Hell (Luke 16:19-31). If you read each scripture carefully, Jesus has placed Words in this story to inform you of the "after life." When the rich man opened his eyes in Hell, he saw Abraham on the other side of the great gulf. The rich man also saw that Lazarus was with him. The rich man had the same mind he had on earth. He still knew Lazarus, in fact, he even tried to continue ordering Lazarus to help him. Abraham even told the rich man to remember in his lifetime. Jesus was showing us that we will still be able to remember our past lives. The rich man even remembered his family who is still alive and wanted someone to warn them to change so that they would not go to Hell. This story tells us that you will still be able to know people and people will still know you. You can either spend your life after death with God and his covenant families (along with your family) or you can spend it in Hell. Either way, you will still know like you do now. Paul testifies of this truth when he said: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known (1 Corinthians 13:12). I have a Mother in Heaven. If I thought for a second that I would not be able to be reunited with her someday, I would loose my mind. Thank God for his word and his love. -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. This comment was edited by DaRtH-MoBiLiTy on Apr 13 2005 09:18pm. |
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Jo_Mintaka - Student 
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when you go to heaven,you will get a new body you are a living soul living in your body until the day that we all go to heavan. then you will get a perfect body. _______________ Joined Jan 27 2005 [Owner of Pink Floyd's 525th, 1100th and 4002nd comments! Darth Mike's accidental 999 and 1001 comments! addiat's 1975 comment! |
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JavaGuy - Student
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If my wife and children will be unknown to me in Heaven, then I'm not sure I want to go. What does it mean for Salvation to spare us from Death if our very identities, all memory and knowledge of who we were is wiped out? The "me" in the afterlife would be a completely new person, not me. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: And that body will be a body described in Rev. 21:3-4 as: * free from pain * free from sorrow, crying, tears * free from sin * free from death -DM- It is also a popular belief that the new heavens and the new earth where the resurrected believers in Christ will live forever more, people will remember one another and relationships will continue and so on and so forth. Almost as if life never ended, but became infinately better. My studies show me this is not the case which is in direct agreement with what I've quoted about no pain, sorror, crying, tears. I was just wondering what your thoughts on the afterlife were DM. Do you believe that all rememberance of loved ones and friendships will continue when people meet God? _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Very good DM. ^^ Your study as far as I can see seems to be quite accurate and in agreement with the scriptures. You touched on these scriptures before I did leaving less work for me as far as posting go and I wholeheartly thank you for your posting. I'm hoping more people can get involved in studying the Bible with us in hopes of getting a great thread going full of truth and meaning for all of us God willing. Thanks again my friend and I'm happy to see you. I will continue posting more in a bit. Just don't want to post too much at a time. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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DaRtH-MoBiLiTy - Student
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Alright, here is what my studies on this subject have concluded: Lets look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14... The Coming of the Lord (13)Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. (14)We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. Paul was writing to these believers to instruct them about those who had died. The term "fall asleep" refers to those who had died. Paul doesn’t want those left behind to sorrow as those who have no hope. The reason they don’t have to sorrow as others without hope is that those who have died in the Lord are with Christ. The souls (immaterial part) of departed Christians are with God and Jesus is going to bring them back with Him when He comes for His Church. The rest of Scripture teaches us the same thing: II Corinthians 5:6-8 tells us that when we Christians die, we go immediately to be with God. To be "absent from the body-present with the Lord." Philippians l:23 Paul tells us when we depart from this life, we are with Christ. But not only does the Bible promise the Christian an immediate reception in glory but the Bible Promises the believer a resurrection body. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 (15) According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. These verses promise that our Christian loved ones will be raised from the dead. These verses teach us that those bodies of Christians who have died will one-day come forth—be resurrected as a new body when Christ comes back. In vs. 16 we see that the souls of the believers (who are now with Christ) will be united with their resurrected bodies at Jesus’ coming for His church. And that body will be a body described in Rev. 21:3-4 as: * free from pain * free from sorrow, crying, tears * free from sin * free from death The Christian’s soul goes immediately to the presence of the Lord. The Christian’s body is left behind until the day the Lord comes back for His church when it will be resurrected into a glorious body and be reunited with the soul. We need not sorrow as others who have no hope for the Christian is promised: an immediate reception in glory; and a resurrection body. Thats my two cents about it... -DM- _______________ One Day, it will all end. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Just making a quick post hopefully. Touching on what I left off at, let us look really quickly at Psalm 115 and Job 14 for these two verses hit me pretty hard when reading them. In Psalm 115:17 we read: 17) The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence. The dead in this scripture has to be refering to the spiritually dead when they die physically. In the next verse we read: 18) But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and forevermore. Praise the LORD! Context is showing two sets of people, ones who will praise God forever more and ones that go down into silence with the word "dead" attached to them. If this word meant physical death which would be for all of us then we all wouldn't praise the Lord upon dying. Again, to be absent in body is to be present with the Lord for the true believer the Bible teaches us taught in 2 Corinthians 6-8. Also in Job 14:10-12 we read: 10) But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? 11) As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, 12) So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. Again, clear verses telling us the condition of the dead or sleeping. The rising can be shown to point towards judgement day when the dead will rise to be judged. So much more to come giving broader depth to these scriptures, but it is late and I would rather the posts be easier to read and digest. I hope and pray that this study will be benefitial to all those who participate in the conversation. May God grant us eyes and ears and a prepared heart for the reading of His Word. May the Lord full of mercy and grace add His blessing to the reading of His Word. Amen. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Doran - Student 
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This verse really encapsulates why I am a Christian... Hebrews 3:13 (NIV):But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. I think it is very easy in today's society (especially America) to get hardened by sin. We are a jaded society interested in bad news, death counts, and other things that serve to desensitize us. That's not to say we shouldn't know about those things, but we rarely hear positive things coming out of our media outlets. Lots of divisiveness. |
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Rainer - Student |
Wow, this topic is still active? Impressive. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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I've been so busy lately and I'm sorry for my inactivity with this thread. Just wanted to make quick mention of something to bump the thread. Back on the topic of the dead and what happens to them when they die, I don't believe that the soul dies off like it has been posted earlier. Examples of sleep are/were used to describe the dead, but I'm finding it to have dual meanings in the Bible. The Bible tells us that the sleeping going down into a place of silence and some psalmist praise God or ask not to be accounted with the ones that sleep. Also, the Bible clearly shows us that God told Moses that he would sleep with his ancestors and wouldn't see the promised land. Now when Jesus was transfigured, Elijah and Moses stood there with him showing them to be children of God. They didn't go into a place of silence neither did their souls die because the Bible also tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord for the true believers. Also Revelation shows us the true believers in God's presence and coming down with Christ on the last day. I'm still working on a full study and hopefully I will be able to post the scriptures to back up everything here. God bless. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Koyi Donita - Student
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I found one of the scriptures I was looking for. It's in the middle of scriptures relating to oppression of servants in Deut.24:14-22. In Deut. 24:16 we read: 16) The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Also in the book of John, when Jesus was healing a blind man He was asked who's sin brought the blindness upon him. In John 9:2-3 we read: 2) And his disciples ask him, Saying, Master, Who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3) Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. Spiritually, we all come into this world blind not able to see the message of the gospel. We see the things of the Bible and of God, but do not see them as God does. A perfect example of this can be seen in the Pharasees and Sadusees and even some if not all of our priests and pastors and maybe even our very own selves. We believe we are hearing what God has to say and proclaim it saying Thus saith the Lord when the Lord has not said. Same with our ears/hearing. God in Jesus tells us here that it isn't our sin or anyone elses that causes this spiritual blindness and that there is nothing we can do to fix them. This is set up so the work of God can be revealed in us when salvation comes and He cures our spiritual blindness and deafness. This is what I believe these scriptures speak of. May God add His blessing to the reading of His Word. Amen. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
This comment was edited by Koyi Donita on Mar 08 2005 03:50pm. |
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Koyi Donita - Student
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Quote: why do you think it is that we must suffer for what Adam and Eve did? Why was their sin so special that it transferred to the rest of humanity for the rest of eternity? My sins dont mean you are punished, why did theirs mean that? A study must be done in order to touch most of the important areas here. I would like to say that I remember the Bible saying thus and so, but I'm too fuzzy on it right now so I won't touch this. I believe [and this is only what I think I remember] the Bible tells us as plain as day that we are responsible for our sins and only our sins. True, Adam and Eve were the mother and father of us all and they were the first in the world and the first to sin. One can pull scriptures out which will look like they damned us all with their sin, but those aren't the only verses about sin and the second death. We will be judged according to our works. All of us in Adam were lead down the road of a sinful nature rather then him damning us all with his sin. Christ is the path or doorway to life. See how those are in opposition with each other? Why else would Jesus call Himself the gate or path? Doesn't really hold much of a spiritual message until it is applied to the creation story. As far as God writting the Bible, I 100% believe that. God tells us that holy men of old spake as God the Holy Spirit moved them and that all Holy scripture was given by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The chain of command has it's spiritual message showing us the God is the head of Christ or the Word who is the head of the Church as man is the head of woman. [I'll try to find that scripture if I have the time] God commands men to love women as themselves meaning that we are to be equal. People may have failed to read or understand this scripture but it's there written somewhere around 90 A.D. We are to love woman as Christ loved the Church and we should know that story. While yet sinners, Christ gave His live to save the Church [being His elect]. Women are no less then that and the Bible tells us that that is the greatest love when one gives their life for another. The chain was established to end all confusion. If too people, man and wife, were to argue about something, the man should have the final say. If a woman were to love her husband as much as her self and visa versa, it should never come to that because you would want your opinion respected and not trampled but as an end all device, that is why they have the final say. [Just my opinions which aren't backed by scriptures. Don't take them as truth. Either read what scriptures I may post if time allows or search it out for yourselves. ] Take care and God bless. _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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