| Tolkien Study | |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student  |
I kind of stole this idea from Koyi, so thanks to him for bringing me to this idea! (by stealing I mean: I saw his thread Bible Study and it came to me to do a Tolkien Study) In this thread, I'd like to discuss the literary works of Tolkien (The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, Lost Tales (part 1 & 2), Left Tellings, ...). I want to talk about likes of the stories, and also some dislikes. Perhaps, when we come to a question, we can seek the answer together. Just, if you're planning to post something like: 'Tolkien sucks!' or whatever, please just ignore this forum. Thank you So start talking  When I've got some more time (and a connection that isn't 56k, then I'll post my opinions too  )_______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Jippie Phoenix - Student 
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is that it bail,what of the rings held by men and dwarves? _______________ |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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Narya, Nenya, and Vilya Ring of Fire, Water and Air.  _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This comment was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Jul 14 2004 06:38pm. |
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Jippie Phoenix - Student
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ok so does ne1 know what the rings are called,I only know of nenya ring of water held by galadriel nemore? _______________ |
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Moridin - Student 
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Actually, I've always refuted most kinds of Christian analogies with Tolkien's work. Because, although Illuvitar is the God, the Valar who descend to Earth take on the qualities of demi-gods. I mean, they're just like any kind of pagan god system. There's three "main" gods, (Manwe, Ulmo, Morgoth) but one of them takes the place as ruler. (Just like Greek mythology, Zeus, Posiedin, and Hades) One of these gods resents the others. The maia, on the other hand, are like angels in their job discription. The term Angel actually means "messenger", and this is what the Maia do. They serve the Valar, and have lesser power. THe reason I can't compare the Valar to angels, is because of the power and rule that they hold. To compare them to the Christian idea of angels, they would not have such sway. God controls everything, whereas Valar have the power to change and create and make decisions. Just my two cents _______________ Bros. with Janus, Leif, Motrec, Aiden, 3th, Zertz, Kenyon, and Vladarion. b00m! Banana Brother to Garos |
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Casual - Student 
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If you want to draw a Christian (or whatever religion) analogy, you could call the Ainur angels. But in my view I see the Ainur as spirits that were created in Iluvatar's thoughts. Eru is, after all, the only god. The Ainur were created by him to aid him in the music of Ainur (Ainulindale) that created Arda. It is really a question of hierarchy of power, and in the Ainur there were 15 more powerful spirits than the others (there could be more, but only 15 of the more powerful Ainur descended unto Middle-Earth and were called Valar). So yes, if you call them angels, the Valar are just more powerful and the Maiar are respectively lesser. You must remember that each Maiar had unique qualities that shared a hyponymic relationship to the powers of the Valar they represented (compare Manwe/Eonwe, Melkor/Sauron, Ulmo/Osse) etc. Tolkien left beautiful ellipses in his mythology that, even though obstructed by his death and thus the existance of many questions without answers, provide the reader with much speculation. What were the Istari? They were Maiar as Tolkien described, but which Valar's wishes did they realise upon appearing in Middle-Earth? Who was Iarwain Ben-Adar? A Maia say some, a spirit from "somewhere else" say others. What was Ungoliant? And many others. Throughout the histories and the annals the Maiar have in some ways had more contact with the inhabitants of Middle-Earth, so I see them more as avatars of the Valar, who act on their wishes. But in the end they are all of the same essence: Spirits of Iluvatar's creation and thus brothers and sisters of equal might. -Casual _______________ Thanks to the human heart by which we live, Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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Quote: The sun and the Moon are two Maia. (Think of angels) Actually, I refer to the Valar as the Angles, and the Maiar as the 'lesser' Angles, in a way. Since Ainur = Valar + Maiar, and Ainur means 'The Holy Ones'. So that's why I refer both to them as Angles. Any other opinions on this? _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
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Squibit, I know they couldn't put it in exactly... but that last line would've been so cool Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly! that sounds so chivalrous _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This comment was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Jul 11 2004 01:57pm. |
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Sared - Retired 
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Frodo Lives!!! ....carry on. _______________ I'm crazy, not stupid. |
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Squibit - Student 
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Hey bail, i havnt got book here now , but that second quote you made that you think should have been in the movie... wasn't that when the 3 confronted the riders of rohan ? if so, aragorn didn't have anduril with him in the movies so they couldnt put that in exactly _______________ Quote: fiZZe: its SIR Fizzy Fluffy :p Quote: FiZZ[JAK]: that was what I call a counter Ah, things you only ever expect to hear once
This comment was edited by Squibit on Jul 11 2004 12:29am. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Quote: To me in the movies Gandalf was more Gandalf the wise, or Gandalf the Leader, more than Gandalf the Wizzard. Also when watching RoTK did anyone think it was going to end after like 5 scenes near the end? Seriously they faded to black for like what seemed like 5 mins between of the final seens, ( obviously it wasnt really that long ) Most noticabl to me was at the end Where everyone bows to the Hobbits, pan out, fade to black, stay black, stay black, waaaaiiiit still black, etc, etc Tolkien didn't make it easy for Peter Jackson... the ending in the books would've been bad for the movie (seeing it from a broad audience's point of view), compared to the one they chose, where they made sure to at least try and get some of the books' ending in. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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Actually, that depends. According to Left Tellings she was at the city of the Havens, where she then fled away from Feänor. Or she might have been with him too... There are two different stories to that I'm afraid  THIS WAS MY 7000th COMMENT!! bow down before me! _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This comment was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Jul 10 2004 03:48pm. |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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And don't think that Galadriel is this innocent sweet loving elf. When she and her people fled Valinor in the Great White ships, She helped murder many of her allies to steal those ships. So she has blood onher hands. I also think that had something do with wut she said after resisting the ring. _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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Indeed, Squibit, IMO the light bolt to scare away the Nazgûl was pretty pathetic I'll quote from the book what had happened, that was great and should have happened! Quote: But now the dark swooping shadows were aware of the newcomer. One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away; and with that the four others wavered, and then rising in swift spirals they passed away eastward vanishing into the lowering cloud above; and down on the Pelennor it seemed for a while less dark. That's a cool scene! If they had done it like that, it would have been very cool Oh also, about Gandalf anyone notice that suddenly he no longer has his staff in ROTK? He's still wearing it when talking to Pippin about the afterlife, and suddenly in the next scene, it's gone and doesn't appear anywhere in the movies until he departs to Valinor along with Galadriel, Elrond, Celeborn, Bilbo and Frodo. Oh also, this is a great scene which they shouldn't have taken out: Quote: Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. "Elendil!" he cried. "I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dùnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly?" With a bit of rewriting, they could almost exactly put in the movies... oh well And about Galadriel: Yes, you are right But, in the book 'Left Tellings' (not Lost Tales), you get three different versions of the explanation, all because Tolkien wrote three of them. I'll explain briefly: 1) She was banned from Valinor for leaving alongside Feänor. Perhaps with other motives, but still, she left, and was thus banned. 2) She fled. When Feänor attack his own kind at ther Havens, she got onto a ship and fled to Middle-Earth. 3) A mixture of both. In any case, she got exiled from Valinor. Indeed I feel that she does not belong among Elves, like Feänor, since they both desire lordship in a way. According to Left Tellings (and all versions say the same) Galadriel was unbanned at the moment she refused the Ring, and the power within. By refusing she showed the power, and the wisdom to say no to such power. Which is why she was unbanned. She got over her desire for power, if you get my point. But then, I might be a bit off, since I have only read the book once... _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student 
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To me in the movies Gandalf was more Gandalf the wise, or Gandalf the Leader, more than Gandalf the Wizzard. Also when watching RoTK did anyone think it was going to end after like 5 scenes near the end? Seriously they faded to black for like what seemed like 5 mins between of the final seens, ( obviously it wasnt really that long ) Most noticabl to me was at the end Where everyone bows to the Hobbits, pan out, fade to black, stay black, stay black, waaaaiiiit still black, etc, etc _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) |
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Squibit - Student
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Gandalf did seem generaly a lot more powerful in the books, but its impossible to describe feelings of great presence in movie, you can only write about how people are feeling. as for magic, i guess a little more would have been ok. and that flashy light thing forceing away the nazgul was rather pathetic imo, _______________ Quote: fiZZe: its SIR Fizzy Fluffy :p Quote: FiZZ[JAK]: that was what I call a counter Ah, things you only ever expect to hear once
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Scythus Aratan - Student 
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Am I the only one who thought Gandalf was not that well representedduring the movies? At only a few pounts does he even begin to demonstrate his magical abilities, and in the battles he doesnt seem to do much sorcery atall. Anyone else agree? _______________ Padawan to the great Jacen Aratan! <Setementor> Scythus is a genius! Claimer of the 5000th post in the Count thread [Solitude] scy rocks [Casual] good point scythus, you're really smart |
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Casual - Student
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Quote: now here is a nice discussion for you ... Why did Galadriel say: "I passed the test... I shall diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel" (thougher than you think) Good question Bail! Here's my opinion. Galadriel was one of the greatest of the Noldor. I believe that she was second in spirit only to Fëanor, but she was wiser than him. She was proud, strong and very willed, and she was like Finrod her brother in dreaming of far lands and dominions of her own. But she was different to Fëanor in her generousity and noblity, and she had a great insight into the minds of others. She perceived great darkness in Fëanor from the very beginning of his doom, and thus there was never great friendship between them. She loved Middle-Earth so much, that even though being under the Doom of Mandos, she did not choose to return to Valinor even after the assault of Noldor upon the Teleri. She would not accept the pardon of the Valar even after Morgoth was discarded from Middle-Earth, and she would reamin in Middle-Earth until the end of the Third Age. The test she speaks about is the final trial that would place her against the Doom of Mandos and her dreams of dominion. For she was a proud woman, and really did have ambitions for being the High Queen of the Noldor. The One Ring would be the answer to all she desired in her youth, since it would bring her dominion over the lands of Middle-Earth. Like she says, she would become a queen so mighty and brillian that all would fall in love with her and despair. She was wise in the last days, and knew to forfeit the temptation so she rejected the ring and left Middle-Earth. And thus the circle closed. This is just my interpretation, and required quite a lot of reading for background knowledge As you were, -Cas _______________ Thanks to the human heart by which we live, Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. |
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Casual - Student 
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Oh, and Bail, the Valar didn't actually recognise the difference between sexes, at least linguistically. Vala is the singular and Valar is the plurar, for both sexes. Valar means "those with power", and is really a collective noun for the spirits known as Ainur. For when they were Ainur, they didn't distinguish themselves as "shes" and "hes", since they were created in the mind of Iluvatar to realise his thoughts. Valier, which you quoted, must still be remembered as a Quenyan coinage, to differentiate the "male" Valar from the "female" Valar. But it must be stressed that the Valar were beyond sexes, it would be equivalent to pondering whether God is male or female Actually I had to check this from Tolkien's letters, where he notes that Valier was a coinage designed especially for the appendixes to create the difference between the males and the females. So it would etymologically be considered as a categorisation made eons after the Valar were truly named as they were. The Valar were fourteen, plus Melkor: Kings Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien and Tulkas, and queens Varda Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána and Nessa. Melkor wasn't counted among Valar after his great betrayal. _______________ Thanks to the human heart by which we live, Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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now here is a nice discussion for you ... Why did Galadriel say: "I passed the test... I shall diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel" (thougher than you think) _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Casual - Student
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Melkor is the Quenyan name for Morgoth, meaning approximately "He, who arises in Might". Morgoth, on the other hand, means "The Black Enemy", or "The Darkest Enemy Of The World". The story of the Sun and the Moon is manyfold and beautiful. Moon was called Isil the Sheen, a flower of Telperion (the silver tree of Valinor), and the sun was called Anar the Fire-golden, fruit of Laurelin. The vessel of the Sun was guided by a Maia called Arien, and Tilion carried the the island of the Moon. Arien was a "gardener" of the golden flowers in the gardens of Vana, and Tilion was a hunter of the company of Oromë. It all began thus, but Tilion with his urge to meet with Arien, who was beautiful beyond words, would burn himself often when he came near her. So the Valar decided that the Sun and the Moon would both be in the sky only for a fraction of a day, and otherwise only one should rule the heavens. While one was in the sky, the other would be hurried across the bottom of Arda so that it would rise again as the other waned. I hope I remembered all the facts, though I should after hundreds of readings of Silmarillion, Lotr and the histories of Middle-Earth TOLKIEN OWNS ALL! _______________ Thanks to the human heart by which we live, Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. |
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Bail Hope of Belouve - Student
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Quote: Anyone think it was going to end differently? I thought it would be one of those "time repeats itself" ends where Aragorn would have to throw the ring into Mt. Doom with Legolas at his side ( so think back to Isildur and Elrond ) I am fairly certain I formed this opinion after seeing the 1st movie ( I read the books but didnt start until after I had seen LOtR:FOtR ) So I am sure plenty of people had an ending in mind that was different let here em. Yes, when I first saw the first movie (I had never heard of LOTR) I kind of expected a final showdown between Sauron and Aragorn. I also expected (for some reason) for Frodo to drop the Ring, and a Nazgûl (or maybe even Sauron) to catch it before it fell. Also, when I had read all the books, I still somehow thought they were going to let Frodo die in ROTK. Just look at that scene! nice scene nonetheless Any other alternative-endings? _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
The appendices, with the name list. This comment was edited by Jacen Aratan on Jul 09 2004 10:19pm. |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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That is a good question Mor. one that I cant remember off the top of my head. I'll have to look that one up. yaaaaa got me!!! _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
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Scythus Aratan - Student
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What page is his name on? _______________ Padawan to the great Jacen Aratan! <Setementor> Scythus is a genius! Claimer of the 5000th post in the Count thread [Solitude] scy rocks [Casual] good point scythus, you're really smart |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
... better yet, anyone who has the English version of the Silmarillion? Whatever it says in that book should be the correct one.. |
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