| Cursing and drawing the line | |
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Mookie - ex-Student  |
I no longer play on the servers, but I still sometimes frequent the chat and the forums. I don't want to be controversial on purpose, but I've lately had several conversations with our members on cursing in the Academy, on both sides of the argument. Obviously, the first rule on cursing in our Academy is 'don't'. The Jedi Knight games can be sold to anyone who is twelve years old, or older. The f-word has no place here, really, and I agree. But some recent developments (and I've been with the Academy long enough to know that these developments are indeed 'recent' and not a policy that has been active throughout my 1.5 year stay at the Academy) have caused me to write this post because I'm curious how you all feel about the question I'm going to pose you. Maybe a little information about myself is handy for you guys. I'm twenty years old, and I'm officially studying the English language. I'm no linguist like Casual, but in International Communication you obviously deal with the language enough to develop some sensibilities regarding its usage. I realize that a lot of young people visit these forums, our servers and our chat, and that we should keep them in mind when conversing. However, a few people (including myself) have become concerned about the JA's policy because it also extends to words like 'shit' and 'damn', and people have even been reprimanded for using 'bastard' and 'crap'. So where do you draw the line? As four-letter words become an ever more popular form of communication, it's hardly surprising that athletes might use them, or that one might slip out in a TV interview. NBC's Matt Yocum had just asked Dale Earnhardt Jr. how it felt to win a race at the Talladega Superspeedway for the fifth time, and he replied modestly that his famous dad, Dale Earnhardt Sr, had won there ten times. "It don't mean s---," he said. The sky fell in. Earnhardt was fined $10,000 and docked points, knocking him out of first place in the Nextel Cup series. But what's interesting is Earnhardt's defense of his naughty word. "It was in jubilation," he said. "When you're happy and joyous about something and it happens, it's different than being angry and cursing in anger. Of course, we don't want to promote that. But if a guy's in Victory Lane, jumping up and down, and lets a 's---' slip out, I don't think that's something we need to go hammering down on." Is he right? Does it make a difference whether the word is used in anger or exuberance? Does it matter whether it's literal or figurative? Is there a distinction among different types: obscenity, profanity, cursing, and blasphemy? When forbidding words such as 'bastard' or 'crap', are we becoming insensitive to the context of a situation? Do we realize people are becoming very self conscious in an environment where we are supposed to be relaxing? I'm not supporting the use of insults in our Academy, but I'm pointing a finger at our censors for becoming sloppy and insensitive to the use of our language. We have many members from many different backgrounds here, and I'm sure there are a lot of opinions on this subject. However, I for one wouldn't be at ease if I had to worry about using the word 'crap' in a room and getting a reprimand for it. Would you? -Ken This post was edited by Mookie on Apr 09 2005 11:48pm. |
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| Comments |
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Aron - Retired 
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JAbot bans on the words that are without doubt wrong. If they are not by your standards, to be quite honest, I don't care about that. I can really see how restricted you must feel now that you can not talk about cocktails anymore. Oh, and that problem should already have been fixed. If I see anyone on IRC "testing" JAbot, or trying to act smart, they will be rewarded by a punishment that YOU will most likely not find appropriate. |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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The JACs don't want to make a list but in the meantime we just automatically get kicked from the IRC channel for saying "cocktail". Good job guys. At least be consistent and kick me for saying "ass" too. Why is that allowed and "cock" is not. When the cock crows, my ass plows a good field. *sniggers* _______________ make install -not war |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Quote: If i was gonna insult someone bastard alone isnt enough you need a more insulting word to make the bastard stand out like you F*****G bastard your a bloody t*at etc...... Imo, Monty has a point there.. seriously, you gotta be Amish to use "bastard" as a I'm-really-pissed-off-so-gonna-insult-you-good-now insult.. |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Quote: You said yourself you wouldn't let your kids say it... That's a good point. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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ozzcoz - Cosplay Nerd 
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The rules state no swearing, and we do have younger members so it's a good rule. The problem is though, while some words are clearly curse/swear words whatever the context, other words have a legitimate meaning, but that meaning has been warped by common usage. For example the word "cock". Hopefully most of you realise that a cock is the male bird in a number of species. It's even a word that is used in the english translation of the bible. (Peter the apostle apparently forsook Jesus a number of times before the cock cried on the night of his accusation). However, if you frequent our IRC channel you may be aware that you are automagically kicked by JAbot for using the letter combination "cock" in any way. This, I have to say, is pretty comical. I don't want to get into the pros and cons of a language filter here, but my personal view is that they are too hard to implement properly to make them effective. But back to my main point. The word "cock" in our modern slang usage has another common meaning. If you know it, good. If you don't, then I admire your innocence. So I can see how someone might be offended if they were called a "cock head". But that doesn't make it a swear word, and isn't in my opinion breaking the no swearing rule. It is however disrespectful, which goes against the general rule from which all the others stem. So um, what was my point? Oh yeh. The rules are good, and we all need to be respectful. But theres a difference between a word being disrespectful, and the way we use it being disrespectful. This is why we have JAK+ though. To see what has actually happened and be able to comprehend it in a human way. We don't need some rigid bot, language filter or whatever to decide in these situations. Well, that's just what I think anyway. _______________ A wizard did it. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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to me u can tell whens someone is meaning in anger. now when im really in to a duel in JK2 ( yea yea long ago ) u get really in to it and forget where u are, u know u have 100 health and 20 sheild left, he hits you a good hit and u say omg u bastard  << notw the If i was gonna insult someone bastard alone isnt enough you need a more insulting word to make the bastard stand out like you F*****G bastard your a bloody t*at etc...... Should be give and take to be honest as a ex JAK/JAT i was very flexable and if i thought things went to fair i would pm them and tell them to tone it down a little or run a server message to flash on the screen. But then im not JAK/JAT so my opinion might be void. or ignored.  _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are
Best Movie Character EVER!! |
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Gradius - Ex-Student 
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Just treat it as one, JG. No matter what context it's used it. You said yourself you wouldn't let your kids say it, so to you it's considered foul language. But, it's up to you if you're going to enforce it or not. _______________ - Proud padawan of Kueller. - We really are at the beginning of it all. The trick, of course, is to make sure we never find the end. - Bill Bryson, A Short History of Nearly Everything - <gen-e-sis-happy> Liek, you can train, liek, a n00b, but he'll just be a trained n00b... --> Wise words! - "daer SOE me likes your a company i am having your some money for letting me do stuff cos mes the best amd i do it all meself" - Slider |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Quote: Even using them as a 'joke' can not be excused because as mentioned in various places in this topic there are young people who play here and we shouldn't influence any young people with that sort of language. So what's your take on "bastard?" I'm dueling with a friend and score a great hit on him. "Bastard!" he taunts (with the appropriate emoticons or whatever to make it clear it's only mock anger). Is it a curse or not? _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Jun Tao - Student 
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Insults are a product of anger. I think most people would agree that anger has no place in the JA as it is here for people to have fun and be friendly as a community for JK players. I don't accept people using four letter words either way, 'damn' and 'crap' are in the english dictionary as slang words and most people hear them on a near daily basis so in all practicality they dont bother me, i dont know about the rest of the four letter words but i dont think people should be using them in games. I can't lie and say i havn't used swear words in anger in this game and others, i am only human, and i learnt from my mistakes and now employ my own opinon; i dont appreciate swear words being used against anyone in games so I dont use them. Even using them as a 'joke' can not be excused because as mentioned in various places in this topic there are young people who play here and we shouldn't influence any young people with that sort of language. 'There is no emotion, only peace'.  _______________ The Tao blood will never die...and it will run through every age of Time there is to come. |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Quote: I think its much more fair to just outlaw all cuss words. .. which calls for a list, a list the JACs don't wanna make. |
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Furi0us - Student 
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You're right, Ranja. Saying "Screw you!" to someone is just as bad, but not for the same reasons. It would be violating the 'No disrespect' rule, whereas saying "F*** you!" would be violating both the 'No disrespect' rule and the 'No cursing' rule. _______________ You are not your f***ing system specs. You are not your uptime stats, your script file, or your oversized desktop screencap. You are not your broadband connection. You are not your f***ing post count. This comment was edited by Furi0us on Apr 14 2005 12:46pm. |
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Rainer - Student |
I haven't read the other replies, so sorry if I say somethng that was already said. Personally I think that intent is what truly matters. Saying "Screw you!" is no better than saying "F*** you!" in my book. However, there is no sure way to decide what is said with a good intent, and what is said with a bad intent. This leaves that decision up to the Knights, which means that rules may not be consistent. I think its much more fair to just outlaw all cuss words. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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SaZ - Student 
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you forgot ***** . _______________ playing jk3 since 30th of january (2005), member since 1st of february. [Unofficial Master to Vision and Z�diac ] If you can make a fool of yourself infront of 300 people you can do anything - Jaiko D'kana |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Well the rules explicitly state the cursing rule and the respect rule as two separate things. So I think it's a valid question. Like I said before, it's possible to engage in gutter-talk without using a "forbidden" word, and it's still gutter-talk and diminishes the person doing it. I enforce the cursing rule, but IMO it's not nearly as important as the respect rule. And there are grey areas, words that can either be or not be a curse depending on context. I seem to recall an incident involving the city of Phuket. Some things are disrespectful simply because they are intended to be so. A list? Sounds a bit overboard, but my I humbly suggest that a list already exists: George Carlin's "seven dirty words" routine. This has the beauty of being part of our pop culture already, and nobody has to agonize over what to include in it. It's prepackaged for us. We could say there's the cursing rule in a nutshell, and gutter-talk outside of that may break the respect rule, but we're not going to argue about whether "crap" is a curse word. For those who don't recall, the Seven Dirty Words are: **** **** **** **** ******* ********** ************  _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Aron - Retired
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Rhis discussion is going in a totally useless direction. All you guys are doing now is make a list ANYWAY, by asking 'so... what's the deal on THIS word?'. In my opinion, it's about the amount of times it is used, the people it is directed to, and the context. It's not about 'crap' scoring 5 points and the badwords list, and 'shit' 7. I can be easily offended by something not even containing swear words; simply a sarcastic, disrespectful tone (and yes, you CAN have that in text chat) can be enough to get me on my toes. This comment was edited by Aron on Apr 13 2005 06:35pm. |
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Jo_Mintaka - Student 
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ok,i guess im an example. i am 12. this IS the reason that i joined the academy. language when i got JK3 i thought it was so awesome,and wanted to play online,so i gave it a try. and of course the first thing i heard was the f-word. so that just made me want to find a server with no cursing. i can tell you 1 thing,ITS VERY HARD. so i searched the net for clubs loooking for places like the academy. and ,of course,came to find the academy. i read the rules,and thought,this place is totally awesome! and then i read the forms a little, i stil saw signs of cursing,but i knew it was reduced a little from public servers. then i got on the servers and saw more signs. so ,yeah im concerened too! _______________ Joined Jan 27 2005 [Owner of Pink Floyd's 525th, 1100th and 4002nd comments! Darth Mike's accidental 999 and 1001 comments! addiat's 1975 comment! This comment was edited by Jo_Mintaka on Apr 13 2005 04:07pm. |
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solitude - Jedi Council 
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whats the take on the word 'crap'?, it can have exactly the same meaning and connotations as s***. however some people consider it offensive and others not. Quote: On the other hand, we should also say that there is no place for "oversensitive" people (don't take that as a harsh comment). This is the internet. Wether you LIKE IT OR NOT, you (yes, YOU) have seen words and images FAR worse than "shit" and "crap". If hearing that word makes you sad, you should consider unplugging your network cable. Swearing is bad, but we are still on the internet here. We can't (read: should not) police around the servers, scanning for so-called "bad words". when aron says that there is no place for oversentitive people, and that we should no police servers for bad words; while we shouldnt go out of our way to offend people, is it necessary for us to cater to the oversensitivity of a few individuals? _______________ Joined 16 October 2004 | Retired 10 April 2005 | Returned 05 June 2008 | Made Staff 27 June 2008 | Made Council 18 January 2009 Padawan To Odan-Wei Belouve | Adopted into the Belouve family | Twin to xAnAtOs | Owner of the 4th Quesi sexy badge  Brother To Roan Belouve, Nomad, Majno, Silkmonkey, Kensei and Jarhok Belouve
Owner Of Virtue's 1000th profile comment, Mr. Doobie's 1000th profile comment, Gradius' 2500th comment, xAnAtOs' 2500th comment, Rosered's 1500th comment, Laziana's 900th comment, Scythus' 500th comment and Echuu's 100th comment |
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JavaGuy - Student
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Well Virtue, what's your take on "bastard?" IMO, it's one of those grey areas. Used disrespectfully, it is, well, disrespectful. But speaking of the bastard son of King Blahblahblah, it's just a word. I do not argue that swearing is acceptable or unaceptable depending on context, merely that whether or not some words are swearing at all can depend on context. My mom once told me that she grew up hearing the word "tit" on a regular basis--her family was in the dairy business, and that was just the technical term for it. Only when she was older did she discover that it's a really rude word to use in any other context. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Virtue - Jedi Council 
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Just a quick note; The rule isn't "No cursing in the JA - unless you're having fun with a friend". It's not the context in which you use 'swear' words that are offensive to people, it's the words themselvs. Alot of different people react differently to swear words - in England "damn" isn't an awful thing to say, but in America, it can be. And vice versa with the word "bloody". What would seem like a harmless word to you might deeply offend someone else, even if you didn't direct the word at them. The only way we could ensure that people get offended as little as possible is to say 'No' to all of the words that can be considered 'Swearing'. This is the JAC's outlook on this. The rest should just be common sense, don't do stupid stuff, remember? Once again, the context in which you use these words is irrelivent, the words will still offend people. I am sorry to those of you who want to be able to curse, but the rule will not change, not even slightly. If you are seen to be cursing on the Servers, IRC or the Forums, you will recieve warnings and/or kicks. Don't think that we don't know what goes on at the other end of the spectrum, too. We know that one or two JAK+ have been a little 'Hyper-Sensitive' and have kicked people for saying really tame things, don't worry, this will be dealt with. But only if you use common sense - the JAK+ expect people to whine when they are kicked, because 95% of the time, that is what happens. So if you're going to complain about being kicked, please, please, please make sure it's a legitemate and justified complaint. Gradius put it quite well: "We're not going to change the rules just because some of you want them to be changed". Please think about this. - Virtue. _______________ Academy Architect |
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Mookie - Ex-Student 
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JavaGuy gets my point about context, I think. Yeah, you wouldn't want to call someone a bastard because you're out to insult him, but I've seen people getting a reprimand in a situation where one friend lovingly rollstabbed another and the victim said 'lol, bastard'. That's just two people having fun, and you need to respect that, in my opinion. |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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"Bastard" became a pejorative in the days when it was really scandalous to be born out of wedlock. In stories the bastard was the guy with no legitimate claim to an inheritence who was a sore loser and often, as a result, a villain. We've forgotten this in an age of paternity lawsuits and child support, but bastard children have been villified throughout much of human history. And remember, there are people who literally are bastards, and while some of them may not care, others probably don't like hearing their familial status used as an insult. So that's why it's offensive to many. I personally don't find it that offensive, but I certainly wouldn't let my kids say it. But again: What's more important is respect. If a student insults someone, that's a problem whether he uses a "bad" word to do it or not. As long as I don't see the f-bomb or any other overt cursing on the server, I'm pretty lenient as long as people are respectful of one another. [edited for sentence structure] _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. This comment was edited by JavaGuy on Apr 12 2005 03:39pm. |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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Quote: I still don't understand why people find bastard offensive, though.. 1. A child born out of wedlock. 2. Something that is of irregular, inferior, or dubious origin. 3. Slang. A person, especially one who is held to be mean or disagreeable. - dictionary.com #2 definition might be semi-understandable, but it's still far from being anything insulting, as I see it. To some it most certainly is. And I would not be happy about being called it. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
I still don't understand why people find bastard offensive, though.. 1. A child born out of wedlock. 2. Something that is of irregular, inferior, or dubious origin. 3. Slang. A person, especially one who is held to be mean or disagreeable. - dictionary.com #2 definition might be semi-understandable, but it's still far from being anything insulting, as I see it. |
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JavaGuy - Student
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The JAK are not like the police. We're like the bouncers. Or like ushers. We're here to have a good time, but it's also our job to show people around, help people with whatever and, yes, sometimes tell a noisy guest to calm down and--if necessary--show him the door. Now... S**t: I don't want to hear it on the servers. Same with the f-bomb. Bastard: If you use it to mean what it really means, okay. Dog breeders say "bitch" in polite company when they are literally talking about their bitches. If you use it as a pejorative, it had better be in an obviously joking manner--otherwise you've violated the Respect Rule, which is far worse than violating the cursing rule. Damn: Anybody know why this is a "curse" word? It was actually the law, in England if memory serves. Some people would pray for their enemies to be damned to hell, and such prayers were thought to carry terrible power--a curse, literally. So such prayers were outlawed. Soon lots of words that we're not supposed to say became known as "cursing" even though many of them aren't really curses in the literal sense. Use of "damn" is not going away on the servers any time soon, but keep in mind a few things. Firstly, if prefaced by "God-" it really is an awful thing to say. The JA has people of many religions and plenty who reject religion or are skeptical of it, so we kinda need to respect religious sensibilities, and G.D. really crosses the line. But remember that people who just say "damn" as an expression of frustration or amazement do not mean it in the literal sense. It's more like a verbal exclamation mark, and as long as it's used like that I see nothing wrong with it. And again, it's not going away. Crap: This is certainly not a curse worse as far as I'm concerned. For a fascinating treasise on it, look up John Crapper on snopes.com. More importantly, above and beyond the no-cursing rule, gutter-talk diminishes the person doing it. It's not a question of using or not using particular words--as I pointed out, "bitch" and "bastard" can be bad words or perfectly acceptable words depending on the context in which they are used. And one can engage in gutter-talk without using even a single "bad" word. It isn't so much words that are offensive: It's what you say with them. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Furi0us - Student
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Gradius for Academy-kick-people-when-they're-drunk-on-irc guy! <3 Grad. _______________ You are not your f***ing system specs. You are not your uptime stats, your script file, or your oversized desktop screencap. You are not your broadband connection. You are not your f***ing post count. |
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