| Religion in the Academy | |
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Aron - Retired  |
Hi everyone, The Council has been discussing this topic for a while now, and we decided to ask for your opinion. Here's the deal: We're a very diverse community, and we try to keep every subject discussable. However, it seems that with "religion threads" it is just impossible NOT to offend eachother at a certain point. Some people can get really hurt by things said on those threads; wether it be ment that way or not. Something not many people know is that I am a very religious person too. I just try not to interfere with those threads, simply because I think they are not constructive in the end. In theory, it's a really great thing, but in the end, the Council keeps getting to deal with these matters; something that should not happen. Now then, we provide you the the choice here. Please vote on the poll, and leave your thoughts here. And keep it nice. My personal opinion: I think the solution would be the outcast religious discussion from these forums. Not because of the religion itself; nothing against that. Just because of the people that keep getting hurt and offended by these threads, and us having to deal with it in a way that is nearly impossible. The internet is a large place; there are most likely forums which are ment for this sole purpose elsewhere. And if there are not, I will be most happy to set them up for you; it would take me less than 10 minutes, probably. I have nothing against the religion talk, but I prefer not to see it within the Academy's borders. |
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Religious talk in the Academy?
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Like I said before, I don't think banning religious threads would be a solution at all--either short- or long-term--but a source of far greater problems. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Smilykrazy - Retired 
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Quote: Now, either he counts on people's intelligence (keep religion threads on the forums) or he removes the greatest source of hard talks to keep peace in the place. The easy way out of this whole problem is to ban all religious talks in the JA. However it is not the religious talk that is the problem here. The problem here is with the people who cause problems constantly around here. Trust me, if its not on the bible study thread, it will be someplace else. The only time there are problems in the bible study thread is when certain people get involved in it who dont really want to seek Gods truth. They come on there solely to challenge the beliefs of what is being discussed. That is not the purpose of that thread at all. It is the people who do this that are the problem and should be taken care of. If you read through that entire thread, you will see that it is only a select few who fail to respect the wishes of koyi in the thread description. The rest of the time, the conversations in that thread are civil and fine. So yeah in conclusion, banning religious threads here is a solution to the current problem however it is not a permanent one. The same people always will cause drama elsewhere, it happens all the time.  _______________ RIP MOM 06/29/58-07/31/08 Married to Koyi Donita 4/30/11 |
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bono_bob - Student |
Amd we all got a vote teh first place. _______________ "Darkness is simply the absence of Light" "Is it not easier to snuff out the light completely than to make no shadow or darknes at all and create pure light?" "Is there a limit to Light?" - Jawa Jedi from a galaxy far far way of the one Lucas describes ( not in that galaxy ) |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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There is a major flaw with the "this is only a gaming community" argument. If this was really only about gaming, the JACs would have closed the thread, banned anyone who opposed, and moved on without blinking. But no, they asked us for our opinions didn't they? And why? Because it's about the people here. Not about the game. I haven't touched the game in a year and I'm still here discussing this. So no, we're not just a gaming community. That's just an excuse in my book. And if you want to keep it that way, and not turn the JA into just another gaming community, don't punish good people because of a few sensitive people who, for some strange reason, can't get themselves not to read the thread. _______________ make install -not war |
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Odan-Wei Belouve - Student 
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Well, first of all, I'dl like people to moderate their own words in here before judging other people's opinions. This is supposed to be a constructive discussion, so calling the 'pro-ban' childish, riciculous, ludicrous, etc that's pretty lame, I think. And the same for the other way around. As someone pointed out very truthfully, the problem doesn't come exactly from the subject (ie religion) but from the people who post comments in these threads. I agree there is no 'simple' solution, yes the JA has a General Discussion forum, yes almost all subjects are allowed... BUT When a community manager sees that the community gets out of control on some matters, he's got the right to be concerned and try to find a way to keep things together. That's just common sense. Now, either he counts on people's intelligence (keep religion threads on the forums) or he removes the greatest source of hard talks to keep peace in the place. Some people in here think this is a ban of religious threads? No it isn't. It's the removal of a source of problems, not because the subject is not decent or whatever, but just because it IS a sensitive matter and people jump at each other's throat more often than not. And it has always been like this, for millenia, hasn't it ? Oh I agree the JA coimmunity is supposed to follow the rules, etc. But it is not necessary to be disrespectful to hurt someone's feelings when speaking about sensitive matters, is it ? Sure disrespect brings more pain, but heat can result in a very civil discussion as well. To take the example of the Bible Study thread, it's been a battlefield even before I retired. And if the JACs are asking our opinions, I guess the thread still is a mess. When it happens, even if a majority of people have a decent behavior but a subject in particular seems to bring wrong reactions, sure it is hard to say "remove the subject, forbid it from now on on the site". But as someone pointed out, there are some places dedicated to religion... so why bring it in here in the first place ? Whatever you say this is a gaming community. If you wanna talk religion or politics with people from this community, fine, make a forum outside the community, give the url to people and moderate it yourself. Well, that's my definitive opinion on this, I second Hardwired fully on his sayings too.  Odan-Wei Belouve P.S.: I know my opinion stinks  _______________ Padawan and brother to SmilyKrazy  - Adopted in the Belouve Family by Fizz and Bubu, BELOUVE ON! - Vladarion, you'll always be in my heart and memories - Spam-Padawan of Jacen Aratan - [DJ is my beloved wife!  - JA Family: Brothers:
Virtue, Furi0us, Vladarion, Hardwired, Janus, Axion, D@RtHM@UL, Motrec, Mike , xAnAtOs , Luke Skywalker; Little bro to SilkMonkey ; Special kind of brother to Kenyon ; Sisters in-law: Rosered, Ain-Soph Aur] Photoshop works: click here This comment was edited by Odan-Wei Belouve on May 02 2005 11:24am. |
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Plo Koon - Student 
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If we all can have logical...faithful, and respectful most of all, arguments without acting childish then of course keep it. We're all trying to find a meaning through the darkness _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
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Zertz - Student 
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I'd like to take this time to point out I'm a Presbyterian Christian who loves an Atheist, not that she loves me back, but still. _______________ Some friends wear pants, some don't. |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Quote: If you get your feelings hurt thats your own problem, I sincerely doubt the ban would be effective with current moderation strategies employed here. Well, I would add that some people seem to go out of their way to say hurtful things, and that is an issue. We do have the respect rule. But like I said before, we seem to be heading toward a complete ban on expressions of religious beliefs. Face it: If somebody says that I'm an atheist, he is implicitly stating that I've been duped by a cruel hoax and am wasting a significant portion of my life on a superstition. Should my tender little feelings get hurt? Should an atheist not be allowed to say that he's an atheist? No. But he should say it in a civil manner, and most people at the JA do state their beliefs in a civil manner. Like Mike said, it would be unfair to punish that polite majority. Yes, discussions can get emotional, but it's still possible for such discussions to be civilized. Every religion claims that it is "right" and other religions wrong. Even the touchy-feely new age religions that claim that all religions are valid are, ironically, explicitly claiming that most other religions are wrong because almost any religion claim to be the only one acceptable to God, so claiming that multiple religions are acceptable to God is to state explicitly that almost every religion in the world is completely wrong in its fundamental beliefs. Okay, most people in the world believe that most other people in the world are going to hell. But most of us seem to get along with our ostensibly hellbound friends, family and coworkers--such civility should be possible on the forums. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Monteeeeeee - Nugget 
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if your offended, dont click on the damn thread, it aint rocket science, dont ban something people talk about just because other dont like it, just dont click the damn thread, simple really..... i dont believe in religon myself so i dont click in to the threads. it works for me. _______________ If you add me to MSN, tell me who you are
Best Movie Character EVER!! This comment was edited by Monteeeeeee on May 01 2005 10:09pm. |
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Aron - Retired 
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Discussing the people that are affected by this is pointless. There are enough for us to make a post about this. |
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Rainer - Student |
Quote: There are boards devoted to theology and I would suggest to keep those topics there. I have a board that I visit frequently for religious discussions. But JavaGuy said exactly what I was trying to say, in a more concise way. Quote: I think the solution would be the outcast religious discussion from these forums. Not because of the religion itself; nothing against that. Just because of the people that keep getting hurt and offended by these threads, and us having to deal with it in a way that is nearly impossible. What people keep getting hurt and offended by these threads? _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on May 01 2005 09:35pm. |
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Zertz - Student 
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If you get your feelings hurt thats your own problem, I sincerely doubt the ban would be effective with current moderation strategies employed here. _______________ Some friends wear pants, some don't. |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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Thank you JavaGuy! _______________ make install -not war |
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 - Student |
Quote: A ban on religious discussions would simply be childish. Ban religious discussions, and the flamers will flame about something else. Enforce the respect rule, okay? And also, look at the real world. Lots of places have laws against "religious discrimination," and in practice those laws cause religious discrimination, as any expression of one's religious beliefs suddenly becomes a "hate crime" or something like that. Here's an example of real religious discrimination: Quote: “The Saudi daily Al-Jazirah reported that 40 men, women, and children with Pakistani citizenship were arrested on April 21, 2005 after performing Christian religious rites in an apartment in the Thaharat Al-Badi'a neighborhood in western Riyadh. The arrest was part of a sweeping police operation by the Riyadh District Police, at the order of Riyadh Governor Prince Salman bin Abd Al-'Aziz. The paper reported that the operation came after Saudi religious police – known as the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice followed and collected information on the activity of the 40, who listened to a proselytizing lecture by a Pakistani minister. The paper also noted that during the police operation, which lasted nearly 10 hours, a cross and a large number of proselytizing books and cassettes were found [in the apartment]. The detainees themselves stated that they had come to listen to lectures by the minister. One of the detainees was a Muslim Pakistani, who acknowledged that he had been influenced by the Christian ideology.The Saudi daily Al-Riyadh said that the detainees had set up a church in the apartment, equipped with crosses, pictures, and statues. Likewise, it was said that during their religious activity, one of them was found praying, as the others present repeated their words, and one of the women arrested was listing the people's confessions and distributing writs of absolution. The Al-Riyadh report included a photo of the detainees and of a large cross and the group which was arrested. A Saudi religious police source explained the reason for the arrest: "These people tried to spread the poison and their beliefs to others, by means of distributing pamphlets and [missionary] publications." He said that all the detainees "had been transferred to the relevant bodies for investigation." (Via Middle East Media Research Institute.) Stuff like this happens all the time, but here in the comfort of the Western world we're all convinced that if somebody disagrees with us then we're in exactly the same situation as Jews during the Inquisition. Everybody get a grip already. We're all ignoring the elephant in the room here, so since nobody seems willing to say it I will: What we are discussing here is a complete ban on religious beliefs at the JA. Oh yes we are. If religious discussions are banned, that will be the inevitable result. You won't be able to put a Bible quote in your sig. because it will lead to drama when somebody complains. Forget about quoting Anton Levay or Ayn Rand on religion. Forget about making any kind of statement concerning what you believe about God or if you even think there is one--might offend someone who gets way too much mileage out of being offended. I can't believe we're even having this discussion. QFE |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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MY stand on the whole thing is same as it always been. To keep the JA religon neutral. That means the same as the clan neutrality. You can belong to whatever group you like...but you don't discuss it on our forums. It works out fine for the most part. But from time to time people get offended/offensive about the whole thing..and religion can carry alot of weight for those that belive truly in it. There are boards devoted to theology and I would suggest to keep those topics there. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Setementor - Jedi Master 
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I agree with Squibit - "Because they want to know the views of thier fellow JA members." But occassionally, intentional or not, you'll get people who will jump in and rock the thread into the ocean. There will always be problems like this. There will always be people like this. Would banning it be a good solution? I doubt it, especially after reading many of the replies below. Let's hope there's a better solution running around the park, eh? |
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JavaGuy - Student
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A ban on religious discussions would simply be childish. Ban religious discussions, and the flamers will flame about something else. Enforce the respect rule, okay? And also, look at the real world. Lots of places have laws against "religious discrimination," and in practice those laws cause religious discrimination, as any expression of one's religious beliefs suddenly becomes a "hate crime" or something like that. Here's an example of real religious discrimination: Quote: “The Saudi daily Al-Jazirah reported that 40 men, women, and children with Pakistani citizenship were arrested on April 21, 2005 after performing Christian religious rites in an apartment in the Thaharat Al-Badi'a neighborhood in western Riyadh. The arrest was part of a sweeping police operation by the Riyadh District Police, at the order of Riyadh Governor Prince Salman bin Abd Al-'Aziz. The paper reported that the operation came after Saudi religious police – known as the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice followed and collected information on the activity of the 40, who listened to a proselytizing lecture by a Pakistani minister. The paper also noted that during the police operation, which lasted nearly 10 hours, a cross and a large number of proselytizing books and cassettes were found [in the apartment]. The detainees themselves stated that they had come to listen to lectures by the minister. One of the detainees was a Muslim Pakistani, who acknowledged that he had been influenced by the Christian ideology.The Saudi daily Al-Riyadh said that the detainees had set up a church in the apartment, equipped with crosses, pictures, and statues. Likewise, it was said that during their religious activity, one of them was found praying, as the others present repeated their words, and one of the women arrested was listing the people's confessions and distributing writs of absolution. The Al-Riyadh report included a photo of the detainees and of a large cross and the group which was arrested. A Saudi religious police source explained the reason for the arrest: "These people tried to spread the poison and their beliefs to others, by means of distributing pamphlets and [missionary] publications." He said that all the detainees "had been transferred to the relevant bodies for investigation." (Via Middle East Media Research Institute.) Stuff like this happens all the time, but here in the comfort of the Western world we're all convinced that if somebody disagrees with us then we're in exactly the same situation as Jews during the Inquisition. Everybody get a grip already. We're all ignoring the elephant in the room here, so since nobody seems willing to say it I will: What we are discussing here is a complete ban on religious beliefs at the JA. Oh yes we are. If religious discussions are banned, that will be the inevitable result. You won't be able to put a Bible quote in your sig. because it will lead to drama when somebody complains. Forget about quoting Anton Levay or Ayn Rand on religion. Forget about making any kind of statement concerning what you believe about God or if you even think there is one--might offend someone who gets way too much mileage out of being offended. I can't believe we're even having this discussion. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Tigerclaw - Student 
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Quote: You know, it's funny... I was in a clan, JO, for a few months, I thought Clan stuff of any kind was banned? Sorry couldn't resist _______________ Geriatric single User, with a touch of Staff now and again. Influenced by Dash Starlight, Jaina. Janus, and Gradius in staff. And in yellow stance. Jaina D'Kana, who really helped me when I first joined the Academy and Jaiko D'Kana, who's classes I took in the begining. Proud owner of _Muro_'s 400th ACK! comment. Avatar by the one and only Majno . Padawan to Dash Starlight This comment was edited by Tigerclaw on May 01 2005 11:51am. |
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Khâ D'Kana - Student 
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Personnally what made me come back to the JA is the fact this is an open-minded place where you could spare with people AND at the same time have constructive discussions (even if I'm more reading than taking part in them ). For me what makes this place so unique is our diversity and the fact we always try to respect others (including other people's opinions). As long as a thread subject is somewhat that give us respect, it surely will be worth the try. Forbidding religious thread will simply make the game from some people who have not the needed opening to understand others could firmly believe in something spiritual. Closing threads which are so important for many people in their real lifes will be a great loss for the academy. Oh and even if the JA isn't a democracy, a rule forbidding religious speaking at the JA will be what I will call a dictat... (yeah I know we, latin people, are always complaining )my 2 cents, -Khâ D'Kana _______________ In light of day, nor dark of night, no evil shall escape our sight. Proud member of the D'Kana family |
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Jade - Student 
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Hmmm....this is a tough one. Personally, I would be sad to see no religion here and the Bible study closed as I feel it has its purpose....to study, learn and teach. The difference with this thread is that there is a very active owner who facilitates as best he can - Koyi. I agree religious discussions can be difficult. However, Whatever the decision the council makes, please consider that some threads do more good to people than bad. Don’t let a few bad apples spoil it for the rest. I speak from personal experience as I have gained a lot from Koyi and his thread. You could say, there is one more person in this world mostly due to the enlightenment I have found from Koyi's thread.... Please consider carefully before heading down the censorship path as it may open up a can of worms such as where does it stop...etc... Freedom of speech is always taken for granted until its gone. There are places in the world where it does not exist, dont let that also be in here too please. Jade  _______________ "You don't know the power of the dark side....Buurrp!" |
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Squibit - Student 
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Quote: "I made a thread and Gradius didn't put a smiley in his comment! BAN!!" Firstly) Why is it always Gradius who gets picked on ? Secondly) Surely its not a students place to request specific punishments "I want him baned for 1 week because ..." "I want him demoted to JAK from JAT because...." All they can do is raise an issue "XXX did this to me, heres the proof. Please look into it for me" Thirdly) If this is sent to you i'm sure you can ignore it easily enough if you consider "Gradius'" comment to not be significant. Fourthly) If it was on a forum, isn't that a form of flamming (infact, isn't this exactly what flaming is?) and that itself is already against JA rules. I completly empathise with Ranja, perfect examples of what i was trying to say. Please avoid community restrictions as much as possible. As for "where do you draw the line"... Whats wrong with having say 20 threads about different religeons. Theres at least that many about games people have heard of and want to knw what other JA members think about them. If Loads of JA members feel like talking about 20 different religeons wheres the problem. As long as its all done in a respectful way of course. As for the "Find a religon-discussion board" why don't all the people posting threads about other topics such as "Music" "XXX online game" dont go to boards specificaly about those subject? Because they want to know the views of thier fellow JA members. --Squibit of Belouve _______________ Quote: fiZZe: its SIR Fizzy Fluffy :p Quote: FiZZ[JAK]: that was what I call a counter Ah, things you only ever expect to hear once
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Bubu - Hubbub
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Quote: I don't think making a new staff position just to mointor the forums is justified. We have JAK+ to help monitor the forums. Yeah they can monitor, but they can't do anything about anything. Only JACs can actually ACT on things right now. A moderator-only position on the staff could free the JACs from this most horrible burden. _______________ make install -not war |
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 - Student |
[quoteWhy not deal with the people instead of the catalyst? If someone wants to cause trouble they'll just find a different avenue to do it through. Wise words right there. You know, it's funny... I was in a clan, JO, for a few months, and religious discussion was banned. When people found out they couldn't display their religious beliefs in any way, shape, or form, ALOT more drama came around than if they had been allowed to display it. I think this works in the same way as far as religious discussions go. I think banning it will only create more problems. Is it THAT hard to deal with a troublemaker? |
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Rainer - Student |
It reminds me of my school. Instead of solving the problem with the people, punishing the people that are the problem, they ban whatever activity they were participating in. Some students made a slingshot out of rubber-bands and paperclips, so they banned rubber-bands and paperclips from school. Some students were using water bottles to squirt water at each other, water bottles are now banned from anywhere but the lunch room. Why not deal with the people instead of the catalyst? If someone wants to cause trouble they'll just find a different avenue to do it through. I've never seen a community that's banned religion that I've enjoyed for any extended period of time. I always stick around thinking it'll be easy to seperate the two, especially if its a place I don't normally talk about religion in, and then I get in trouble or it just gets plain unenjoyable. People start making remarks against religion, and then someone of that religion responds, even if its not in a hostile way, and the religious person gets in trouble. Conversations can only be taken from a secular perspective, and that leaves people open to make stabs at religion here and there and get away with it. Or I've been in a situation where I was talking about a book and it's parallels to mythologies and religions. Mythologies were okay until I mentioned Christianity, and then it became a religious discussion and I was kicked. I know none of this has happened yet here, but it's something that happens repeatedly where religion is banned. I just really don't want to stay in a community where I have to be afraid that I might say something or do something that might be considered religious. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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Orion - Retired 
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I really don't see it as a freedom. I see it as a privilage in the JA to discuss pretty much whatever you want. The JAC's make the rules since they run the JA. You don't like it, the either don't join or don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Thats just how I feel about it, right or wrong, my opinion. I say ban public forum religous disscusion. Or find a better solution, banning it should be a last resort. I do agree that people who don't want to read it shouldn't but thats never going to happen, humans are to nosey/let curiosity get the best of them, to want to put their opinion in either it be good or just to 'piss on someones parade' so to speak. I say out of posting in those forums simply because I cannot hold a just disccusion about the subject matter as I don't care for it, but that doesn't go to say I haven't read some of it, minus the huge long posts that take like 30 minutes to read . Though I do agree with Bubu in the sense that I too have learned somethings.I don't think making a new staff position just to mointor the forums is justified. We have JAK+ to help monitor the forums. my .2cents _______________ When a Man lies he murder's some part of the world. These are the pale deaths which men misscall there lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer. Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home? -Cliff Burton Owner of Smily's 1900th comment | <Lady_Catherine> i love your sexy white socks! | (Lady_Catherine) i adore u! | (Lady_Catherine) onion (Lady_Catherine) i lub u |
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