| Religion in the Academy | |
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Aron - Retired  |
Hi everyone, The Council has been discussing this topic for a while now, and we decided to ask for your opinion. Here's the deal: We're a very diverse community, and we try to keep every subject discussable. However, it seems that with "religion threads" it is just impossible NOT to offend eachother at a certain point. Some people can get really hurt by things said on those threads; wether it be ment that way or not. Something not many people know is that I am a very religious person too. I just try not to interfere with those threads, simply because I think they are not constructive in the end. In theory, it's a really great thing, but in the end, the Council keeps getting to deal with these matters; something that should not happen. Now then, we provide you the the choice here. Please vote on the poll, and leave your thoughts here. And keep it nice. My personal opinion: I think the solution would be the outcast religious discussion from these forums. Not because of the religion itself; nothing against that. Just because of the people that keep getting hurt and offended by these threads, and us having to deal with it in a way that is nearly impossible. The internet is a large place; there are most likely forums which are ment for this sole purpose elsewhere. And if there are not, I will be most happy to set them up for you; it would take me less than 10 minutes, probably. I have nothing against the religion talk, but I prefer not to see it within the Academy's borders. |
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Religious talk in the Academy?
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Aron - Retired 
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Discussing the people that are affected by this is pointless. There are enough for us to make a post about this. |
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Rainer - Student |
Quote: There are boards devoted to theology and I would suggest to keep those topics there. I have a board that I visit frequently for religious discussions. But JavaGuy said exactly what I was trying to say, in a more concise way. Quote: I think the solution would be the outcast religious discussion from these forums. Not because of the religion itself; nothing against that. Just because of the people that keep getting hurt and offended by these threads, and us having to deal with it in a way that is nearly impossible. What people keep getting hurt and offended by these threads? _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James This comment was edited by Rainer on May 01 2005 09:35pm. |
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Zertz - Student 
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If you get your feelings hurt thats your own problem, I sincerely doubt the ban would be effective with current moderation strategies employed here. _______________ Some friends wear pants, some don't. |
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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Thank you JavaGuy! _______________ make install -not war |
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 - Student |
Quote: A ban on religious discussions would simply be childish. Ban religious discussions, and the flamers will flame about something else. Enforce the respect rule, okay? And also, look at the real world. Lots of places have laws against "religious discrimination," and in practice those laws cause religious discrimination, as any expression of one's religious beliefs suddenly becomes a "hate crime" or something like that. Here's an example of real religious discrimination: Quote: “The Saudi daily Al-Jazirah reported that 40 men, women, and children with Pakistani citizenship were arrested on April 21, 2005 after performing Christian religious rites in an apartment in the Thaharat Al-Badi'a neighborhood in western Riyadh. The arrest was part of a sweeping police operation by the Riyadh District Police, at the order of Riyadh Governor Prince Salman bin Abd Al-'Aziz. The paper reported that the operation came after Saudi religious police – known as the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice followed and collected information on the activity of the 40, who listened to a proselytizing lecture by a Pakistani minister. The paper also noted that during the police operation, which lasted nearly 10 hours, a cross and a large number of proselytizing books and cassettes were found [in the apartment]. The detainees themselves stated that they had come to listen to lectures by the minister. One of the detainees was a Muslim Pakistani, who acknowledged that he had been influenced by the Christian ideology.The Saudi daily Al-Riyadh said that the detainees had set up a church in the apartment, equipped with crosses, pictures, and statues. Likewise, it was said that during their religious activity, one of them was found praying, as the others present repeated their words, and one of the women arrested was listing the people's confessions and distributing writs of absolution. The Al-Riyadh report included a photo of the detainees and of a large cross and the group which was arrested. A Saudi religious police source explained the reason for the arrest: "These people tried to spread the poison and their beliefs to others, by means of distributing pamphlets and [missionary] publications." He said that all the detainees "had been transferred to the relevant bodies for investigation." (Via Middle East Media Research Institute.) Stuff like this happens all the time, but here in the comfort of the Western world we're all convinced that if somebody disagrees with us then we're in exactly the same situation as Jews during the Inquisition. Everybody get a grip already. We're all ignoring the elephant in the room here, so since nobody seems willing to say it I will: What we are discussing here is a complete ban on religious beliefs at the JA. Oh yes we are. If religious discussions are banned, that will be the inevitable result. You won't be able to put a Bible quote in your sig. because it will lead to drama when somebody complains. Forget about quoting Anton Levay or Ayn Rand on religion. Forget about making any kind of statement concerning what you believe about God or if you even think there is one--might offend someone who gets way too much mileage out of being offended. I can't believe we're even having this discussion. QFE |
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Hardwired - Retired 
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MY stand on the whole thing is same as it always been. To keep the JA religon neutral. That means the same as the clan neutrality. You can belong to whatever group you like...but you don't discuss it on our forums. It works out fine for the most part. But from time to time people get offended/offensive about the whole thing..and religion can carry alot of weight for those that belive truly in it. There are boards devoted to theology and I would suggest to keep those topics there. - HW _______________ ::Nothing wrong with a little shooting.....as long as the right people get shot:: |
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Setementor - Jedi Master 
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I agree with Squibit - "Because they want to know the views of thier fellow JA members." But occassionally, intentional or not, you'll get people who will jump in and rock the thread into the ocean. There will always be problems like this. There will always be people like this. Would banning it be a good solution? I doubt it, especially after reading many of the replies below. Let's hope there's a better solution running around the park, eh?  |
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JavaGuy - Student 
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A ban on religious discussions would simply be childish. Ban religious discussions, and the flamers will flame about something else. Enforce the respect rule, okay? And also, look at the real world. Lots of places have laws against "religious discrimination," and in practice those laws cause religious discrimination, as any expression of one's religious beliefs suddenly becomes a "hate crime" or something like that. Here's an example of real religious discrimination: Quote: “The Saudi daily Al-Jazirah reported that 40 men, women, and children with Pakistani citizenship were arrested on April 21, 2005 after performing Christian religious rites in an apartment in the Thaharat Al-Badi'a neighborhood in western Riyadh. The arrest was part of a sweeping police operation by the Riyadh District Police, at the order of Riyadh Governor Prince Salman bin Abd Al-'Aziz. The paper reported that the operation came after Saudi religious police – known as the Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice followed and collected information on the activity of the 40, who listened to a proselytizing lecture by a Pakistani minister. The paper also noted that during the police operation, which lasted nearly 10 hours, a cross and a large number of proselytizing books and cassettes were found [in the apartment]. The detainees themselves stated that they had come to listen to lectures by the minister. One of the detainees was a Muslim Pakistani, who acknowledged that he had been influenced by the Christian ideology.The Saudi daily Al-Riyadh said that the detainees had set up a church in the apartment, equipped with crosses, pictures, and statues. Likewise, it was said that during their religious activity, one of them was found praying, as the others present repeated their words, and one of the women arrested was listing the people's confessions and distributing writs of absolution. The Al-Riyadh report included a photo of the detainees and of a large cross and the group which was arrested. A Saudi religious police source explained the reason for the arrest: "These people tried to spread the poison and their beliefs to others, by means of distributing pamphlets and [missionary] publications." He said that all the detainees "had been transferred to the relevant bodies for investigation." (Via Middle East Media Research Institute.) Stuff like this happens all the time, but here in the comfort of the Western world we're all convinced that if somebody disagrees with us then we're in exactly the same situation as Jews during the Inquisition. Everybody get a grip already. We're all ignoring the elephant in the room here, so since nobody seems willing to say it I will: What we are discussing here is a complete ban on religious beliefs at the JA. Oh yes we are. If religious discussions are banned, that will be the inevitable result. You won't be able to put a Bible quote in your sig. because it will lead to drama when somebody complains. Forget about quoting Anton Levay or Ayn Rand on religion. Forget about making any kind of statement concerning what you believe about God or if you even think there is one--might offend someone who gets way too much mileage out of being offended. I can't believe we're even having this discussion. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Tigerclaw - Student 
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Quote: You know, it's funny... I was in a clan, JO, for a few months, I thought Clan stuff of any kind was banned? Sorry couldn't resist _______________ Geriatric single User, with a touch of Staff now and again. Influenced by Dash Starlight, Jaina. Janus, and Gradius in staff. And in yellow stance. Jaina D'Kana, who really helped me when I first joined the Academy and Jaiko D'Kana, who's classes I took in the begining. Proud owner of _Muro_'s 400th ACK! comment. Avatar by the one and only Majno . Padawan to Dash Starlight This comment was edited by Tigerclaw on May 01 2005 11:51am. |
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Khâ D'Kana - Student 
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Personnally what made me come back to the JA is the fact this is an open-minded place where you could spare with people AND at the same time have constructive discussions (even if I'm more reading than taking part in them  ). For me what makes this place so unique is our diversity and the fact we always try to respect others (including other people's opinions). As long as a thread subject is somewhat that give us respect, it surely will be worth the try. Forbidding religious thread will simply make the game from some people who have not the needed opening to understand others could firmly believe in something spiritual. Closing threads which are so important for many people in their real lifes will be a great loss for the academy. Oh and even if the JA isn't a democracy, a rule forbidding religious speaking at the JA will be what I will call a dictat... (yeah I know we, latin people, are always complaining  )my 2 cents, -Khâ D'Kana _______________ In light of day, nor dark of night, no evil shall escape our sight. Proud member of the D'Kana family |
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Jade - Student 
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Hmmm....this is a tough one. Personally, I would be sad to see no religion here and the Bible study closed as I feel it has its purpose....to study, learn and teach. The difference with this thread is that there is a very active owner who facilitates as best he can - Koyi. I agree religious discussions can be difficult. However, Whatever the decision the council makes, please consider that some threads do more good to people than bad. Don’t let a few bad apples spoil it for the rest. I speak from personal experience as I have gained a lot from Koyi and his thread. You could say, there is one more person in this world mostly due to the enlightenment I have found from Koyi's thread.... Please consider carefully before heading down the censorship path as it may open up a can of worms such as where does it stop...etc... Freedom of speech is always taken for granted until its gone. There are places in the world where it does not exist, dont let that also be in here too please. Jade  _______________ "You don't know the power of the dark side....Buurrp!" |
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Squibit - Student 
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Quote: "I made a thread and Gradius didn't put a smiley in his comment! BAN!!" Firstly) Why is it always Gradius who gets picked on ? Secondly) Surely its not a students place to request specific punishments "I want him baned for 1 week because ..." "I want him demoted to JAK from JAT because...." All they can do is raise an issue "XXX did this to me, heres the proof. Please look into it for me" Thirdly) If this is sent to you i'm sure you can ignore it easily enough if you consider "Gradius'" comment to not be significant. Fourthly) If it was on a forum, isn't that a form of flamming (infact, isn't this exactly what flaming is?) and that itself is already against JA rules. I completly empathise with Ranja, perfect examples of what i was trying to say. Please avoid community restrictions as much as possible. As for "where do you draw the line"... Whats wrong with having say 20 threads about different religeons. Theres at least that many about games people have heard of and want to knw what other JA members think about them. If Loads of JA members feel like talking about 20 different religeons wheres the problem. As long as its all done in a respectful way of course. As for the "Find a religon-discussion board" why don't all the people posting threads about other topics such as "Music" "XXX online game" dont go to boards specificaly about those subject? Because they want to know the views of thier fellow JA members. --Squibit of Belouve _______________ Quote: fiZZe: its SIR Fizzy Fluffy :p Quote: FiZZ[JAK]: that was what I call a counter Ah, things you only ever expect to hear once 
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Bubu - Hubbub 
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Quote: I don't think making a new staff position just to mointor the forums is justified. We have JAK+ to help monitor the forums. Yeah they can monitor, but they can't do anything about anything. Only JACs can actually ACT on things right now. A moderator-only position on the staff could free the JACs from this most horrible burden. _______________ make install -not war |
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 - Student |
[quoteWhy not deal with the people instead of the catalyst? If someone wants to cause trouble they'll just find a different avenue to do it through. Wise words right there. You know, it's funny... I was in a clan, JO, for a few months, and religious discussion was banned. When people found out they couldn't display their religious beliefs in any way, shape, or form, ALOT more drama came around than if they had been allowed to display it. I think this works in the same way as far as religious discussions go. I think banning it will only create more problems. Is it THAT hard to deal with a troublemaker? |
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Rainer - Student |
It reminds me of my school. Instead of solving the problem with the people, punishing the people that are the problem, they ban whatever activity they were participating in. Some students made a slingshot out of rubber-bands and paperclips, so they banned rubber-bands and paperclips from school. Some students were using water bottles to squirt water at each other, water bottles are now banned from anywhere but the lunch room. Why not deal with the people instead of the catalyst? If someone wants to cause trouble they'll just find a different avenue to do it through. I've never seen a community that's banned religion that I've enjoyed for any extended period of time. I always stick around thinking it'll be easy to seperate the two, especially if its a place I don't normally talk about religion in, and then I get in trouble or it just gets plain unenjoyable. People start making remarks against religion, and then someone of that religion responds, even if its not in a hostile way, and the religious person gets in trouble. Conversations can only be taken from a secular perspective, and that leaves people open to make stabs at religion here and there and get away with it. Or I've been in a situation where I was talking about a book and it's parallels to mythologies and religions. Mythologies were okay until I mentioned Christianity, and then it became a religious discussion and I was kicked. I know none of this has happened yet here, but it's something that happens repeatedly where religion is banned. I just really don't want to stay in a community where I have to be afraid that I might say something or do something that might be considered religious. _______________ The Jedi formally known as Ranja. ---------------------- "I can list among my experience and skills: leadership, extensive travel, logistical organization, intimate understanding of firearms, and a knowledge of security measures at numerous banks." - Jesse James |
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Orion - Retired 
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I really don't see it as a freedom. I see it as a privilage in the JA to discuss pretty much whatever you want. The JAC's make the rules since they run the JA. You don't like it, the either don't join or don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Thats just how I feel about it, right or wrong, my opinion. I say ban public forum religous disscusion. Or find a better solution, banning it should be a last resort. I do agree that people who don't want to read it shouldn't but thats never going to happen, humans are to nosey/let curiosity get the best of them, to want to put their opinion in either it be good or just to 'piss on someones parade' so to speak. I say out of posting in those forums simply because I cannot hold a just disccusion about the subject matter as I don't care for it, but that doesn't go to say I haven't read some of it, minus the huge long posts that take like 30 minutes to read . Though I do agree with Bubu in the sense that I too have learned somethings.I don't think making a new staff position just to mointor the forums is justified. We have JAK+ to help monitor the forums. my .2cents _______________ When a Man lies he murder's some part of the world. These are the pale deaths which men misscall there lives. All this I cannot bear to witness any longer. Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home? -Cliff Burton Owner of Smily's 1900th comment | <Lady_Catherine> i love your sexy white socks! | (Lady_Catherine) i adore u! | (Lady_Catherine) onion (Lady_Catherine) i lub u |
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 - Student |
So what you're basically saying is that you want to remove 1191 people's freedom to discuss religious topics, for the sake of five people who are tired with dealing with incidents that happen from time to time, right? That doesn't sound too good to me. :/ |
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Koyi Donita - Student 
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I think Bubu has a very good idea. Maybe a staff position or something like it(trained by the council) with the sole purpose of controlling those situations could judge and control (especially if hyper-sensitivity becomes an issue) and leave all other issues in the council's hands. I don't know if something like this would be 100% good, but it sounds good to me. I see Virtue's point here. If these individuals are removed, their closest friends here in the academy (who will probably still be in touch with the removed members) will probably push the envelope by poking and proding in a real shifty way as not to show their true intentions of disrupting the subject matter in these threads. People will feel uneasy about new individuals joining the discussion and raining little so-called innocent comments questiong this or that all the while just try to be disruptive and disrespectful posibly in a vengeful manner. I give the council members my permission to close the Bible thread if they would like to do so. I don't feel that this is a necessary action nor do I feel good about it. I'm not saying do it, just know that I'm behind your decission 100% and it's my belief that you guys should not be debating this, but worrying about the Academy, trialing, training, etc.. This is unnecessary for all of you for you all have more pressing matters to attend to I'm sure. I just wish their was a way for people from all over the world here in the Academy to discuss a topic like the Bible without any disrespect. It saddens me that the rules can be broken by individuals and the ones looking to do something good within their own lives will have to pay the price.  _______________ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:16 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17 I love my babyface. Smilykrazy is my baby and I love her. ...Swimming through the void we hear the Word, we lose ourselves but we find it all... System Of A Down.
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Bubu - Hubbub
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If you're tired of moderating these threads get an extra moderator. Make a moderator staff position, or whatever, I don't know. Don't just ban an entire topic of discussion because you're tired of it. _______________ make install -not war |
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Jeramia Adept - Student 
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listen friends, this isnt such a good idea to do. If you introduce religion it will destroy what you worked for, undoublty it will cause confusion argument and utter disaster. And people will get mad at eachother for no various reason. its NOT a good idea, just look at the world around you. Its best to let people believe in what they want not what is established. --------------------------- and thats how i see it, i agree with aron. i think all of our religious aspects shouldnt be used to flam another person. it makes you look so immature, irresponsible and disgraceful. _______________ The Force is my ally, and a powerful ally it is. Padawan Brother to Darth Sirius This comment was edited by Jeramia Adept on Apr 30 2005 03:28pm. |
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Virtue - Jedi Council 
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"Getting rid of the bad apples" won't be as easy as alot of you are making out. Firstly, with a rule like this, everyone will become hyper-sensitive to everything - "I made a thread and Gradius didn't put a smiley in his comment! BAN!!" People will simply be looking too hard for negativity and anyone who posts something that is anything less than optomistic will be "breaking the rules". The JAC have seen things like this happen before, this kind of hyper-sensitivity thing. We'll work something out here, something that'll hopefully make everyone happy. - Virtue.  _______________ Academy Architect |
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Quesi - Student 
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I have to agree with Ranja. Although I don't necessarily contribute all that much to the Bible thread here, I like to have a read through it occassionally. But also I don't want the situation whereby if I *did* want to post something I couldn't simply because of anti-religious rules. I personally would be outraged, not because I wouldn't be able to post here, but because simply the oppurtunity was there for everyone, yet it is taken away in a discriminatory nature. I don't care what people say, forbidding religious discussion is discriminatory, and I feel very strongly about this issue. _______________ "Your powers are weak old man" || Part of the "Fifth Element Appreciation Society" || Proud possession of Flash [Jacen_Aratan] bleh [Jacen_Aratan] last year of school :p [Jacen_Aratan] after the finals I am freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee [Jacen_Aratan] until I have to go on more advanced education [Jacen_Aratan] [Acey_Spadey] like kindergarten(Bubu) my sister was quite good actually.. never expected her to be so good (Gradius) yeah, she's great |
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Tigerclaw - Student
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Hello again. I've had some time to read more of the posts in this thread now, and feel I need to revise my previous post: I agree with a lot of people that the religious posts aren't really the problem here. I don't read them (because as mentioned I'm not religious), therefore they don't bother me. I know my opinions may conflict with others on this subject, so I don't post in those threads either. I think quite a few people have hit the nail on the head when they say, Punish those that do not respect others in the academy. Afterall, that's what it boils down to isn't it? A lack of respect towards other peoples beliefs? You wanted to get back to the basics of respect anyway, didn't you? Maybe banning religion isn't the way to go, maybe getting rid of the bad apples would make this a nicer, and friendlier place? I mean, it seems there are only a few people causing the problem, so would that be a great loss to the academy? _______________ Geriatric single User, with a touch of Staff now and again. Influenced by Dash Starlight, Jaina. Janus, and Gradius in staff. And in yellow stance. Jaina D'Kana, who really helped me when I first joined the Academy and Jaiko D'Kana, who's classes I took in the begining. Proud owner of _Muro_'s 400th ACK! comment. Avatar by the one and only Majno . Padawan to Dash Starlight This comment was edited by Tigerclaw on Apr 30 2005 12:10pm. |
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Jade Jedi - Retired 
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I think if you wish to talk religion then you should find a forum on a site that cater's to your belief's. As was pointed out to those guys that were talking about there girl friends or girls they liked or what ever. Also there are many diferent religions out there Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to name the most popular, not to mention there many variants like Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Church of England to name just some of the cristian ones. My point (whitch I think someone tryed to make on the forums page before) is if each of these wished to make a thread, then where do you draw the line without upsetting a particular group. So as to not to segrigate anyone or offend a religious group these thread's should be banned. I am not religious, nor do I hate religion. I understand that people have diferent belief's and respect that, but unfortunatly others dont. Nothing breaks up families more than arguments over religion or politics I hate when families argue and I'd hate to see this family go the same way. _______________ *CLICKEH->Never risk the Fett Man|*Download my Saber here. Made by master craftsman Pink Floyd_Mintaka + his 2002 & 4000 comment's [Laz's 700th comment][BDKawika's 600th comment] & Owner of a TOWEL award!!|Master: Sared Padawans: Rage-Ball and Dante Eagle.|*Jade Jedi at The Jedi Academy Archives "There's only one Return and it's not of the King it's of the Jedi" Randal Clerks 2 The top 10 reasons why I procrastinate: 1. This comment was edited by Jade Jedi on Apr 30 2005 12:18pm. |
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Dunn'Canni - Student 
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I appreciate that it can be extra work for mods, but I think the best solution is to punish severely those who are clearly starting trouble. If there is a thread for Biblical discussion and someone chooses to question the intergrity of the Bible in a provocative manner, the uncalled for comment should be removed ASAP and the post ignored in the discussion. Those who meet provocation with angry posts of their own should be punished too, since they ought to know better. _______________ "There is no emotion... there is peace. There is no ignorance... there is knowledge. There is no passion... there is serenity. There is no chaos... there is harmony. There is no death... there is the Force." -Master Zhar Lestin |
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