| Why exploits aren't wrong... explained. | |
|
JK13 /// jaws. - Student  |
David Sirlin world champion of street fighter based fighting games and graduate of MIT explains what he calls The Scrub _______________ It's a false hologram, it IS artificial... |
| Poll | ||
QFT clearly means:
|
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! |
| Comments |
|
Vision - Jedi Knight 
|
I agree with Masta, 13, and Dark, they brought up some really good points and they really know what they're talking about.  This comment was edited by Vision on Mar 13 2007 03:19pm. |
|
Evenue - Student 
|
Yeah I agree. If you take was poking from the truly 'skilled' players, they still play fine. |
|
Masta - Jedi Council 
|
Quote: Yep, the best players do win, however, there can be good players that don't always win. Always winning is impossible - winning the majority of the time, is not. I think that's what 13 was talking about.
Quote: And a while back, it was the place, then ESL came along and started becoming popular in JA. It may look like that from your point of view. However, you seem to be mistaking your own views for the ones of the whole jka community. Saying that ESL-JA was unpopular, unknown, or didn't even exist up until you and your friends heard about it, is just plain ignorant. It's like saying week of war and battlestats were unpopular because dureal never heard of them ~ he's not the sum of all people!
The ESL opened it's jka ladders sometime shortly after the game's worldwide release (october 03). You and the people you knew maybe just havn't noticed them because you were busy with your own communities and leagues? - certainly doesn't make the ladders unpopular though. Quote: So let me get this straight, I reread what 13 said and he said that pokers are basically players who failed to be good You misunderstand. He said that most players who completely rely on poke from the very beginning will most likely lack the necessary aim and footwork to be good.
Playing without poke for a while seems the best way to improve those things, but certainly not the only one. Quote: Nor should they be judged if they compete or not, a player is either good, or he isn't Well, if you meet an unknown player who claims to be good - how do you evaluate his assertion? You could ask about his achievements, but then again, you said that one should not define a player's skill solely by his achievements (which i agree with). So, wouldn't be the best way to engage yourself in a serious duel with him? Measuring his skill against your own - in a small form of competition which is exactly what a duel is about.
So, if he refuses to compete, you can't say for sure if he's good or not. You may have an idea if he was good at some point by looking at his achievements - but that's about it really. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
|
Dark. - Student 
|
In Europe, almost all of the best players compete in the ESL and it has been 'the' league in Europe for some time now. In America, where you are from, i think, the ESL never really was popular in your continent - that's why you havn't really heard of it, until probably more recently because of the more and more American-based players that are competiting in the ESL too.
So yeah, the ESL isn't really 'just coming along popular', it has been for a while now, probably the most competitive league to compete in, especially where euros are concerned anyway ;o. _______________ xfire: smithy182 |
|
Malikith - Student 
|
Quote: The very point of this thread is to read the article, he says play 2 win. Masta is right, the players who win are good and those who lose are bad, poking is irrelevant. There are as many unskilled pokers as their are non pokers. that is the point i was trying to make, however dark is exactly right, the best players (dureal, dark himself etc) have struck a balance between aim and poke to make themselves very efficient and deadly in a match. But dont get cought up in your "hes skillful because he dosnt exploit, and hes not because he does exploit" The best players are the ones who win.
Yep, the best players do win, however, there can be good players that don't always win. Losing is as much of a part of the game as winning, but we all want to win. If we lose, well, we backtrack and figure out what went wrong, then go for it again. I know, I played on that battlestats site I showed you where I played 1,796 games and had a win percentage of 86% for Jedi Academy, duels and TFFA's, mostly TFFA. And a while back, it was the place, then ESL came along and started becoming popular in JA. Personally I've never played ESL, but I may eventually. I was thinking of trying out for the Auroch's once I've reached 30 days at the Academy. _______________ My xfire is: Malikith This comment was edited by Malikith on Mar 12 2007 11:38pm. |
|
JK13 /// jaws. - Student 
|
The very point of this thread is to read the article, he says play 2 win. Masta is right, the players who win are good and those who lose are bad, poking is irrelevant. There are as many unskilled pokers as their are non pokers. that is the point i was trying to make, however dark is exactly right, the best players (dureal, dark himself etc) have struck a balance between aim and poke to make themselves very efficient and deadly in a match. But dont get cought up in your "hes skillful because he dosnt exploit, and hes not because he does exploit" The best players are the ones who win. _______________ It's a false hologram, it IS artificial... |
|
Malikith - Student
|
Quote: Being a nice person doesn't win you tournaments - playing good, does. Being nice may make you appear like a better person, but surely won't make you a better player.
No it doesn't make you a better player in the skill department, thats not what I mean't, it does make you a better player all around. But the person is the player so thats what I also mean. So let me get this straight, I reread what 13 said and he said that pokers are basically players who failed to be good, thats interesting, I don't poke but I just find that interesting because that may be true. Quote: you just got served =p!
I did? Quote: I consider people good at the game who are successful at competing - if they poke or not is irrelevant.
I don't think a person should be defined as good based on their history but based on the present. Nor should they be judged if they compete or not, a player is either good, or he isn't, and both exist in gaming/JA today. I've competed quite a bit, I've seen some of the wierdest crap out there I swear hehe. I competed from 2003-2006 in Jedi Academy (I didn't start hearing about ESL for JA until 2006), but after a while I just got kind of burnt out and just wanted to just play for fun and teach others what I know eventually at The Jedi Academy. I do "teach" but not officially. Only on request. I try to leave it to the officials for that one since I don't want to interfere with their methods. Quote: I do know for a fact that a few certain (mostly american :p) players have spins bound to keys
Yeah, I do too. But I don't really have much more to say on the topic, I believe we both have our points, I may have misworded a few things and may have been a little misunderstood but I tried, maybe I misunderstood some of the things you said earlier as well, and I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway, that wasn't my intention. But I do have something for you to listen to if you like competition, I have a thread about it here: http://www.thejediacademy.net/forums_detail_page.php?f_id=15955 Enjoy. _______________ My xfire is: Malikith This comment was edited by Malikith on Mar 12 2007 07:45pm. |
|
NotSoLittleCaesar - Student 
|
you just got served =p! _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
|
|
Masta - Jedi Council
|
Quote: maybe you consider a exploiter good at the game I consider people good at the game who are successful at competing - if they poke or not is irrelevant.
Quote: I don't think being a good player isn't necessarily determined by skill, its also by the way you act and treat others. Being a nice person doesn't win you tournaments - playing good, does.
Being nice may make you appear like a better person, but surely won't make you a better player. Quote: Plus, from what I've been told from a few friends that participate in ESL, alot of the players on ESL bind some of their moves to a key, so they aren't even doing the wiggles/pokes really, they're just pressing hotkeys, I mean, is that what its really come down to? I heard similiar things. The usefulness of having poke bound to a key remains questionable though, and it's effective application unconfirmed. However, I do know for a fact that a few certain (mostly american :p) players have spins bound to keys, which seems to be semi-efficient in certain situations.
So yeah, even though things like that may be advantageous at times, they certainly don't make bad players good. - To be honest, it really doesn't matter if anyone thinks that certain techniques or bugs in jka are "cheap", "wrong", "unacceptable", "lame" or equivalent, as long as said people don't go around trying to imprint their own made-up rules and mental constructs on the styles of other people. Quote: As Virtue says, we frown upon exploits, but we will not complain "...any longer." :p
Quote: theres no prize money involved in either of them No, but prizes worth money. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
|
Malikith - Student 
|
Quote: average poker = cluelessly rely on poke with not a bit of aim in my eyes, making them easy to counter with any technique.
the less poke you have, the better your aim is - the more poke, the more damage you do - i think the experianced players usually have a balance between the two etc Thats exactly my point. And back to what Masta is saying, I have experence too, I've been playing the game since October 2003, and well, maybe you consider a exploiter good at the game, I consider them going for the easy way out. Also alot of them tend to carry a attitude, which makes me look at them as a bad player in character and by choice. I don't think being a good player isn't necessarily determined by skill, its also by the way you act and treat others. I don't care about what happens on ESL, so exploiting has became accepted, its been accepted for about two years now, and this is the only game where this type of activity is accepted. Every other game that has a bug/exploit, you get automatically banned off servers. Now, do I have anything against them? No, I just counter, and 90% of exploiters, are exactly as I described, they don't really aim. Plus, from what I've been told from a few friends that participate in ESL, alot of the players on ESL bind some of their moves to a key, so they aren't even doing the wiggles/pokes really, they're just pressing hotkeys, I mean, is that what its really come down to? We can all argue about this until we're blue in the face, but I don't believe exploits should ever be accepted, due to the fact that its wrong and a easy way out. If someone exploits, yeah, deal with it, if you can't beat them, don't complain, but even if you can beat them, it doesn't give you the right, and I've never been a whiner ever, but I mean, theres a fine line between right and wrong. We at the Academy, I'd say 99% of the people here, know its much more skillful to fight without the exploits. As Virtue says, we frown upon exploits, but we will not complain, they're just practice. And we will not stop teaching people how to beat them without using exploits, ever. When alot of the other exploiters out there see that they can be beaten by non-exploiters, they may have 2nd thoughts, and they are welcome in open arms. Another thing Virtue has said that is very true is that alot of exploiters don't know better, they grew with it because they thought it was the way to play. So just because someone here participates in ESL, doesn't mean that they have more authority over what someone else says about exploiting or whatever. I have just as much right as everyone else, infact, if you look at this link i'm going to show you, I do actually have plenty of experence in semi-competitive/competitive TFFA events and a VERY long history, this place was the place to play at until ESL rolled around in the JA department, but most of the people who used to play here in its prime, went to Ecliptical Realms: Main JA Area with all time rankings: http://www.battlestats.com/games/ja/ My Profile: http://www.battlestats.com/players/search/?34458 (site may be a little slow but it'll eventually load) So yes, I have experence, did it mean anything in the end? No, but neither does ESL, theres no prize money involved in either of them, they're just fun little competitive events so one doesn't rule over the other, just one was played alot in the past, and one is now the present. However, both have had their share of excellent players. I feel like this is becoming more than a discussion of exploiting and I would just like to not bring this into a huge debate and I do not want to see this continuing in a circle. _______________ My xfire is: Malikith This comment was edited by Malikith on Mar 11 2007 07:03pm. |
|
Dark. - Student 
|
average poker = cluelessly rely on poke with not a bit of aim in my eyes, making them easy to counter with any technique.
the less poke you have, the better your aim is - the more poke, the more damage you do - i think the experianced players usually have a balance between the two etc _______________ xfire: smithy182 |
|
Tallepyon - Student 
|
Lol jk13 l2internet. QFT= quoted for truth |
|
Sho Koon - Student 
|
Is it just me or people in the JA do start to get more serious?
I totally understand your points, and it is great to listen to them. (By that I meant the topic and not the QFT stuff. ) _______________ Proud owner of Malak's 50th and special 300th, Alex D'Kana's 3600th and 4000th, Laziana's 200th and [Jawa][Obi-Wan][SW]'s 1300th comment. This comment was edited by Sho Koon on Mar 09 2007 10:11pm. |
|
JK13 /// jaws. - Student
|
well sorry then, in my circles QFT means somthing different entirely, that can be very misleading <_< _______________ It's a false hologram, it IS artificial... |
|
R2D2 - Staff 
|
Quote: Psst QFT means Quoted for truth :p
yea, 13, don't get so trigger happy
We already know you love Masta _______________ "Do or do not, there is no try" Jedi Master Yoda Dual Saberist This comment was edited by R2D2 on Mar 09 2007 08:28pm. |
|
NotSoLittleCaesar - Student
|
Psst QFT means Quoted for truth :p _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
|
|
JK13 /// jaws. - Student 
|
QFT? Majno, Masta has a great knoledge of the game and of people who play it. Especially of how players who use wiggleing and other deemed "exploits". He KNOWS what hes talking about. And what he said here holds doubly true. He and I have played this game at a high level competitively in the ESL together and have seen how the very best players play the game. And I guarantee you this: Masta will never ever speak a word on the idea of exploits that is wrong. Useing Wiggle is a definite advantage if you practice and learn to use it correctly, as i have said before the players who use it wrong are those who skipped learning actual skill in the game and went stright for poking. That means that they just rely on poking and never learned conventional footwork or aim, thus making a duel with them rediculus as they just swing wildly. Those players aren't who were talking about. we are talking of the dureals of the world who have a great level of skill and control with their poking-> leading to a heavy competitve edge. no style of play is wrong, but if your truely "playing to win" as Sirlin puts it, then you will use every tactic or advantage you can possibly use to get what you want, and not be constrained by unwritten rules of e-honourz. so please, never tell an experienced player who knows exactly what hes talking about to QFT on a whim, just because you may disagree with what he is saying.  _______________ It's a false hologram, it IS artificial... |
|
NotSoLittleCaesar - Student
|
Quote:
Quote:
Infact, most of the time its even easier to beat than someone who does not because if you just stand back and watch someone who you're dueling thats doing it, they aren't even coming for you, they're just jumping up into the air and coming back down doing them, they can't really see you. haha. The way you describe their style of playing sounds as if they'd be clueless; jumping around trying to hit people by chance. This is not the way an experienced player is playing.
Quote: Plus most of them that are attached to those exploits really can't use yellow and blue stance all that well since all they use is red. Most experienced players use red mainly, not solely. There isn't much to know about yellow when you're a poker anyway - well timed crouching poke in yellow is enough to make non-poke look inferior.
The way i see it, there is no advantage in playing without poke at all. Popular illusionary pseudo-advantages of visibility and orientation get cast away once people realize that experienced players maintain the same levels of visibility and orientation during poke as a non-poker. Infact, even pokers who get slightly disoriented by the heavy movement usually regain orientation way too fast for it to be a serious disadvantage. Non-poke is a restriction in efficiency people put on themselves for a variety of reasons. If any of those reasons are right or wrong is irrelevant, since everyone should choose their own style of playing, and everyone else should respect that choice. In this case, arguments would only resurface through disrespect and complains. Oh and in order to avoid confusion: when i say poke, i'm talking about the tactic of moving your mouse back and forth during a swing. *sips water and clears throat* *Cough* ..Al.CAPOWNED. <3.! _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
|
|
Majno - Padawan 
|
Quote:
Quote:
Infact, most of the time its even easier to beat than someone who does not because if you just stand back and watch someone who you're dueling thats doing it, they aren't even coming for you, they're just jumping up into the air and coming back down doing them, they can't really see you. haha. The way you describe their style of playing sounds as if they'd be clueless; jumping around trying to hit people by chance. This is not the way an experienced player is playing.
Quote: Plus most of them that are attached to those exploits really can't use yellow and blue stance all that well since all they use is red. Most experienced players use red mainly, not solely. There isn't much to know about yellow when you're a poker anyway - well timed crouching poke in yellow is enough to make non-poke look inferior.
The way i see it, there is no advantage in playing without poke at all. Popular illusionary pseudo-advantages of visibility and orientation get cast away once people realize that experienced players maintain the same levels of visibility and orientation during poke as a non-poker. Infact, even pokers who get slightly disoriented by the heavy movement usually regain orientation way too fast for it to be a serious disadvantage. Non-poke is a restriction in efficiency people put on themselves for a variety of reasons. If any of those reasons are right or wrong is irrelevant, since everyone should choose their own style of playing, and everyone else should respect that choice. In this case, arguments would only resurface through disrespect and complains. Oh and in order to avoid confusion: when i say poke, i'm talking about the tactic of moving your mouse back and forth during a swing. QFT! _______________ " You've just taken your first steps into a larger world. " - Ben. |
|
Masta - Jedi Council 
|
Quote: Infact, most of the time its even easier to beat than someone who does not because if you just stand back and watch someone who you're dueling thats doing it, they aren't even coming for you, they're just jumping up into the air and coming back down doing them, they can't really see you. haha. The way you describe their style of playing sounds as if they'd be clueless; jumping around trying to hit people by chance. This is not the way an experienced player is playing.
Quote: Plus most of them that are attached to those exploits really can't use yellow and blue stance all that well since all they use is red. Most experienced players use red mainly, not solely. There isn't much to know about yellow when you're a poker anyway - well timed crouching poke in yellow is enough to make non-poke look inferior.
The way i see it, there is no advantage in playing without poke at all. Popular illusionary pseudo-advantages of visibility and orientation get cast away once people realize that experienced players maintain the same levels of visibility and orientation during poke as a non-poker. Infact, even pokers who get slightly disoriented by the heavy movement usually regain orientation way too fast for it to be a serious disadvantage. Non-poke is a restriction in efficiency people put on themselves for a variety of reasons. If any of those reasons are right or wrong is irrelevant, since everyone should choose their own style of playing, and everyone else should respect that choice. In this case, arguments would only resurface through disrespect and complains. Oh and in order to avoid confusion: when i say poke, i'm talking about the tactic of moving your mouse back and forth during a swing. _______________ Find out more about the Jedi Academy Aurochs here and more about Masta here! Married to Kain. |
|
Jaiko D'Kana - Student 
|
*sprays a drop or two of cooling water* Wouldn't like history repeating itself. Flames burn, dont play with fire....and have a nice weekend 
-JaikoD'Kana- _______________ The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind. William James (1842 - 1910) |
|
Malikith - Student
|
Quote:
Quote:
like the poke, its just a extension really, a stretch.
no its not :p a poke is either a swift wiggle of the mouse, or this with a extension but yeah. Apart from that your right. Good read. Haha well thats not how I defined the poke, what you just said, was what I call the poke wiggle, which I consider wiggling and spinning true exploits because thats when you start seeing really strange things happening with the damages. Plus, its just a sloppy way to play. However, it is beatable still as with anything else. Infact, most of the time its even easier to beat than someone who does not because if you just stand back and watch someone who you're dueling thats doing it, they aren't even coming for you, they're just jumping up into the air and coming back down doing them, they can't really see you. haha. So to finish off what I said, I consider spinning and wiggling the "easy way out" to actually developing a real and defined saber style of your own. Plus most of them that are attached to those exploits really can't use yellow and blue stance all that well since all they use is red. Which of course, gives you the non-exploiter the advantage. More fuel, and more to the arsenal. _______________ My xfire is: Malikith This comment was edited by Malikith on Mar 08 2007 08:11pm. |
|
NotSoLittleCaesar - Student 
|
Quote: like the poke, its just a extension really, a stretch.
no its not :p a poke is either a swift wiggle of the mouse, or this with a extension but yeah. Apart from that your right. Good read. _______________ Quote: I mostly agree oh Lord of the squeezy mop
|
|
Malikith - Student
|
Ahh yes, I've read this a long time ago, its pretty accurate. I wouldn't say all exploits are correct, but some of them are not really even exploits, like the poke, its just a extension really, a stretch. Its understanding these things, and being able to counter them as stated.
Very great read though, I reoommend everyone to read that article even if you do understand, its worth reading. _______________ My xfire is: Malikith |
|
Gregwarro - Student 
|
Great article, goes right along with the teaching here, with a small variation not to use cheats but here is what they are and how to counter them, which of course the knowledge came frome using and having them used on each other  |
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! |