| 'dark' and 'light' Jedi and playing the role | |
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Eldrin - ex-Student |
I guess like me most people have a preference for dark or light powers. My preference is light though I think dark powers are more powerful. My reason for prefering light is purely a roleplaying one. Sometimes I might feel like playing an evil guy/girl and will take dark powers but mostly I prefer light.
Now the subject I want to start a discussion on is the roleplay aspect. I might choose to play a light jedi most of the time but then I get in game and it seems most people don't differentiate between light and dark jedi. I would not be surprised and even expect to see dark and light jedi teaching each other etc. Is it not possible to set aside servers for more roleplay? Servers where light jedi don't look like sith, Chewbacca/Padme etc. aren't jedi, 'light' jedi fight only 'dark' jedi (and vise versa) etc. I could and prehaps should say more but I feel this is sufficient to start the discussion. ps If this should be in another forum please feel free to move it or berate me. This post was edited by Eldrin on Dec 19 2002 01:15pm. |
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Vaughn - Student 
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I do realize that this is going no where, but I'll tell you this... this is one of the most interesting/long/difficult arguments ive ever had. I now know why my friend told me to join debating (a joke from school). This monster that you have created can be defeated (pulls out a force shotgun). Heh, ive wanted to use this one  _______________ When you become an actor, you become the person, and you dont act anymore. You just are. - Tyler HP, Taught by Mr G Simpson |
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Eldrin - Ex-Student |
OMG I've created a monster!
*Runs screaming into the nearest closet* |
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Kay Mata - Ex-Student |
Vaugh, Buzz Vader and Silent...i also follow your idea about the Force, you all explained your point very well and i have to admit its hard to defend your positions about the Force, i say you all did very well and we could keep ourselves arguing like this for months and years witout arriving to a conclusion...let,s keep this like religions : you can't convince everyone to follow the same idea, some tried to this and in the middle ages alot of people died (i know we are not taking this so far but its the same thing), so let the people choose their sides on this subject...
-Kay Mata _______________ Back for good... |
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Vaughn - Student 
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Buzz - When i read what you said on "she's the teacher and student, and i am a student and teacher", i could only think of one thing - how much my brain hurt. Also, you end with a ", where you dont need to.
Kalheka, the force being negative and positive. well, that would make sence about the energy, but lets look at electricity. What is the + side? Protons the - side? electrons, what does that equal? NEUTRAL!
i dont know what my point to argue is, but... the two charges cancel eachother out, so.... the force becomes neutral XP(>_<  _______________ When you become an actor, you become the person, and you dont act anymore. You just are. - Tyler HP, Taught by Mr G Simpson |
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Kalheka - Student 
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On the debate of "Is there a Dark Side of the Force". The answer is yes.
Energy is charged either positively or negatively, thats how it flows. Take a look at your walkman batteries, you will see on one side a +, on the other side a -. Now for those of you who will bring up the wall socket you have your lamp, and computer plugged into: That type of electricity still is + and - charged, it is just set up to flow in a way that allows other electric devices to convert it to a lower voltage. Try out your refridgerator magnets, remember playing with them? How if you hold them one way they are pulled together, and hold them another they push apart? The Force carries the same tendency, lightside powers flow from one side, darkside powers from the other. That's also how in Empire Strikes Back, when Luke said, "Something's not right here, I feel cold" Yoda could say," Strong is that place with the Darkside, and in you must go." Luke was going into someplace that was charged with the negative side of the force, it fed on his fear, and uncertainty, and helped produce his imaginary encounter with Darth Vader (with the help of Yoda, I believe). That's how Jedi can carry both, because both good and bad reside in us. That's how there is a grey side, because they mix within us. What makes a Jedi light or darkside is the amount of either they let flow the most. Kyle can use darkside powers because within himself is the balance that allows him to use both sides. Anakin truly does fulfill the prophecy of bringing the force into balance because he brings back the negative that the Jedi Order strived so hard to wipe out. It also makes perfect sense then that the old jedi in the book traitor would dislike Luke allowing Jedi to marry, because the old jedi despised anything with emotional potential basically, they came to view emotion as something a jedi could not afford, cutting off the very thing that they needed to have balance. So, for those of you who say, "How can energy have sides?, How can the Force have sides?" There you go. I've edited this thing about 50 times now LOL On another note, I think that the power of the Jedi Mind Trick is really a darkside power because of it's intent to impose your will on another. _______________ Death is only the beginning. This comment was edited by Kalheka on Dec 25 2002 05:58am. |
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Buzz - Student 
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Well put Vaughn, very well put. I'm one that follows Silent's idea of the Force if you will. Its not actually her idea though, it stems from the novel Traitor which I read before she did. But she's the teacher and student, I'm merely the student and teacher. I wanted to see if those so adamant about the Force having sides explaining why it does and how it can. Silent's intent was to make people think my intent was to drive in the idea and to get people to move on to why you can't just go nuts and use any Force power anyway you want and going, "It doesn't matter the Force doesn't have sides."
*Edit* Put the starting " since I missed it and Vaughn pointed it out. That's why I ended with a ". _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Dec 25 2002 09:00pm. |
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Vaughn - Student
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ok. What I say may offend you, or may be opposite to whats said, i may be repeating whats said but here we go.
Note:some parts may be hard to read - having difficulty expressing it. What is the force? The force is all around us. It is in everything. The question is, does it have sides? A conscience? A brain? Anything that causes something to happen? Think of Gravity. Does Gravity have sides? Does it do anything against us? No. Gravity is a force that pulls us inward toward the center of the earth. Or any planet. What is the force? It is something that can be controlled inside of each and every one of us. So the next question is, does the force have sides? There are two different answers to that. Yes and No. To those who think that the force has sides - you may be correct, and you may have your thougts, but I must disagree with you. The Force cannot have sides (Silent, im trying to answer ur question here! and you cant say no one answerd it! cuz Buzz Vader did many times!), seing how it is just a force within every one of us. How can it have sides? Darkside/Light side you say? In reference to the game, every one would agree that Kyle Katarn is a light jedi. If he is a lightie, how could he use such "dark side" powers, such as lightning and grip? He had hate in him, thats how. The thing is, The force does not take sides, the user takes sides. What does that mean? It means this; The force does not take sides, all the force powers are "grey" powers. Now, to use some of them you must have hate in your heart. NO! Every jedi could use force lightning, every jedi can use force grip, just the "light jedi's" do not use them, because it is very difficult to use them without meaning of harm. For the "light jedi" only use the force for "good" or for protection. However, it could be argued that the Force takes sides, indirectly. back to gravity again, we can conteract gravity through flight. The person chooses which powers to use, when and how. So it is the user, not the force, which chooses sides. The "Dark side" powers, can be used safely without turning evil, but the thing is, it is much more difficult to use them without hate in your heart. Most jedi who use Lightning or Grip (dark rage also) use it to harm people, therefore becomming evil. When dooku shot lightning at Yoda, Dooku was evil trying to harm him. Yoda, must have had knowlege of it to be able to block it, or else he would have been tossed aside like a rag doll (like Anikin or Luke). He must have been tought how to use it, or at least how to block it. How else to block it, if you cant use it? Yoda just chose not to use it. To make a simple answer, the force does not take sides, it cannot, the jedi who use it take sides, and decide how to use it, for harm or for good. All jedi can use all force powers, yet some are easier to use with hate in the heart, these such powers are deemed the dark side. Kyle (after the fight with Tavion/Galak) used lightning and grip without turning to the dark side (before hearing that Jan was/is alive, he was slowly turning evil). Yoda must have learnt how to use lightning to be able to throw it back. In basic, the dark side and light side are within each of us. We should not hate, for hate is the road to evil. _______________ When you become an actor, you become the person, and you dont act anymore. You just are. - Tyler HP, Taught by Mr G Simpson |
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Veydar Beeurd - Student |
No the Sarlacc didn't kill Boba Fett in the movies.
You know why? Because the Sarlacc keeps you alive for 1000 years, while it eats you! Heh... Anyway, how did we get off topic? lol |
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.Templar. - Ex-Student 
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That nasty ol' Sarlacc couldnt kill Boba... Boba is the man!, I think the EU is good as it ties up loose ends such as Boba Fett... |
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Kay Mata - Ex-Student |
i agree Buzz Vader, if Jedi wouldn't have to kill at all...why would they be trained to use the Force and a lightsaber ?? _______________ Back for good... |
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Buzz - Student 
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Khalaas I do agree with you on your views about Lucas.
As for not using EU in discussions, the overall point of this is playing roles. That in itself is of the Expanded Universe. Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens out of his anger which is wrong. He did it for Vengeance. He gave into his dark desires which leads him down a dark path. What about when Mace kills Jango? He didn't go slicing down Boba as well where Anakin killed the women and children. I don't say that anyone's thinking is wrong I merely look at a larger picture one which broadens the ideas of the Jedi and at the same time brings it into a tighter focus. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Jedi Al Khalaas - Student 
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Buzz, You can see my views on the EU in the other threads in the Star Wars discussion forum.
Bottom line is , Lucas is a film maker , Star Wars has grown beyond anything he could have ever imagined , I think he probably thinks it is a millstone around his neck. He should get a group of trusted people to take the whole thing to the next level . He hasnt got the time to be definitive on issues like The force to the detail that fandom (us!) requires , and yet i feel he doesnt want to lose control. He should let his 'Board of trustees' for want of a better phrase, give the masses the info , stories , etc that they crave ESPECIALLY VIA THE MOVIES!!! |
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Eeth Koth - Student 
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Jedi shouldn't hate at all though. Lashing out through the force is not the only way that Jedi can get in trouble. What about when anakin sabered the tusken camp? He didn't go around force choking them, he used his saber. Is that ok?
As I said before though, we aren't going anywhere with this. We may as well just keep our own beliefs, and opinions. I'll stop replying to this thread now, since one of us will need to, so it may as well be me. p.s: If someone starts a thread on EU contradictions, or general EU things, i'll likely contribute. I have a low opinion of the EU, and I believe the majority of you have a high opinion of it, so it will surely be interesting. There is nothing wrong with the EU, it should be used for enjoyment only though, not for these types of discussions. Sure these discussions are technically pointless, but they are fun too since its always fun talking about something like star wars. Playing a game in the long run is pointless, it only provides temporary amusement, such as these threads. Doesn't mean we shouldn't play though. This comment was edited by Eeth Koth on Dec 24 2002 12:47pm. |
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Buzz - Student
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An EU contradictions thread would go in the Star Wars discussion area of course. And sarcasm is the way of pointlessness. All of this the movies the novels the games are all for entertainment. Even the academy. Even some of the discussions are meant for entertainment. This is meant to make people think differently and well when one person goes "Oh that's wrong its not a part of the movies so you can't use it" well that starts to take away the fun. And if one person doesn't like that then there's someone else that won't like something else and just say "that's wrong too you can't do that either" And then it just snowballs untill you would get someone saying they don't like the movies you can't use an argument based on them and then you have no star wars for entertainment. If Lucas doesn't like or doesn't agree to something someone wants to do with his universe, then he's not going to let it come out. Let's say someone wants to limit powers in JO only to powers in the movie and you can't use the other ones. For dark powers that leaves grip and lightning. Neutral powers would be push pull and jump. Sight maybe since they do sense others presences.
And as for light powers, well the jedi never appear to be healing themself with the force so you can't use that. I don't think they ever absorb other powers used on them since yoda only blocks and deflects the lightning. They don't use the Force for protection. So really the only one used is the Jedi mind trick but its not really used in the same sense. That would make the game more true to the movies, but would make it less fun. We're here to have fun not have someone say "your fun is wrong don't do it." *Edit* Splinter of the Mind's Eye, doesn't that just make you sick to your stomach. Luke and Leia, ewww *shudder*. Of course the guy didn't know about them being brother and sister when he wrote it, and its not like they got married or anything in it as far as I know. I didn't read it, its a bit before my time. But hey its possible. Doesn't that happen in Soap Operas? Siblings not knowing they are siblings and falling in love? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Dec 24 2002 09:59am. |
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Jedi Al Khalaas - Student 
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Buzz , like Anakin you started off great, but I think your last post shows you are letting your anger & hate control you. Remember sarcasm is the way of ...of the DARK SIDE.
;-) |
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Jedi Al Khalaas - Student
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I for one , would be interested in learning of more EU contradictions. Please start a new thread, as all will be interested.
what about "Splinter of the minds eye" as a book where the Luke & Leia love thing was Alan Dean Foster, majorly barking up the wrong tree!!! |
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Buzz - Student
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When I say light side or dark side I refer to a person's light and dark side. THEY can have sides, I keep repeating that.
What exactly is your problem with the EU. Is it so evil and goes against everything in the movies that no one should even look to it? We might as well tell everyone that uses an expanded universe name to change it to someone in the movies and never touch anything from star wars unless its a game or book about the movies. So I guess its time to throw away our copies of Jedi Outcast. Let's just go one step further. The movies and all expanded universe are just entertainment, none of its real so you can't even use the movies because they aren't real. The Force doesn't even exist so all discussions about it are pointless. No one should have any fun or imagination while we're at it too because I'm sure that doesn't fit someones ideas either. Frankly George Lucas has missed the ball with the prequels. They're adequate but they could have been done so much better and in such a way that people don't go "the last half hour makes everything else in episode 2 worth it" "What if the Jedi could use the Force to teleport around the galaxy?" Aaing Ti monks in the Hand of Thrawn can. Of course they also see the Force as a rainbow of colors rather than just black and light. There are no real discussions about the Force in the movies. The only real one is Yoda speech "Life creates it, makes it grow. Go ahead and find two Star Wars novels that contradict eachother. Novels written after the Heir to the Empire Trilogy since that is when they were decided that all novels would follow with a continuity. Saying that the Force doesn't have sides doesn't mean you can use any power you want. It means there's no harm in a Jedi getting mad. Its when they get mad and lash out through the Force that the problem comes. Jedi can try to use "dark side" powers for good but power corrupts. The dark side is about selfishness, and the light side is about selflessness. And a Jedi cannot use the Force to attack and when they do they are crossing a line. One which might be hard to step back over once you start. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Eeth Koth - Student 
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"And I consider the Tales novels to be the same as the Tales comic books which now get the "Infinities" symbol on them meaning they don't necessarily occur in continuity"
That, is only ybour opinion though. In my opinion, all the EU is the same. Everything outside of the movies. So whos opinion is right? We can't argue here. "Go on a what if scenario." I would rather not. Or I could say what if the Jedi could create bithday cakes out of mid air? What if the Jedi could use the Force to teleport around the galaxy? We obviously have no idea what the Force is capable of, so I limit my views to what is done in the movies. "Yoda says that going to the dark side is quicker and easier so gaining an ability such as creating lightning by use of the light side would be a longer more difficult path." So you believe in sides now? "Intent is a very big part of it. The Hand of Thrawn books give that reasoning" I won't argue that due to a reason you probably saw coming..its part of the EU. If you really like I will reasearch more contradictory material and questionable material in the EU. But be warned now, that everything SW related thats not in the movies is considered EU. |
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Veydar Beeurd - Student |
I'll try and get a couple of shots of the level I'm building.
It will be much like the Academy map, except the layout will be different, it will have a darker feel to it (eg: textures, lighting, etc...), and the training/dueling rooms will be slightly different (otherwise there would be no point in it if the rooms where the same) |
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Ecomancer - Ex-Student 
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I think most of us believe that the path to the darkside is controlled by yourself and no-one else can decide it for you and if one want's he can become skilled in dark powers. Does it mean that he's absolutely evil and uncapable of any good actions?
It's also true that the humanoids who fall to the darkside are often driven by negative feelings such as ambition, greed and hate. So I think that Darkpowers can be used for good but are more suited to evil and thats why no Jedi should use them. Using these powers can lead you easier to the become a person who feels negative feelings. This suggests that it is possible to be a Lightjedi and use darkpowers and visa versa, but it's not easy either way. Did anyone understand what I mean? The Game I think that map or a room of negative feelings could make things more intresting since it was a part of Lukes training also. The Council could choose Two Siths(no more, no less) to "complete the training". 
Needless to say that some would fall to the darkside and others would not. |
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Buzz - Student
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Intent is a very big part of it. The Hand of Thrawn books give that reasoning. The reason Mara never really went over to the dark side is because her intent was to serve her master not be in control.
No one should actually ever hate, but it happens. You can't say that Jedi are indifferent to the Sith though and shouldn't hate them but its something that is potential. They really just need to recognize that the Sith want power over people and are a danger to innocents and need to be stopped by any means which means to kill them if necessary but not out of hatred. The journeyman protector stuff for boba fett was in the Tales of the Bounty Hunters not the Bounty Hunter Wars. And I consider the Tales novels to be the same as the Tales comic books which now get the "Infinities" symbol on them meaning they don't necessarily occur in continuity. It was also written before Lucas had even created Jango Fett so he couldn't possibly be mentioned. As for Boba Fett’s death, my previous post is correct still. Here is the link to the Jedi Council question about his death http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/steve/askjc20021202.html. It states this: “Yes, in George's view -- as far as the films go -- the baddest bounty hunter in the Galaxy met his match in the Great Pit of Carkoon where --unfortunately for Mr. Fett -- the ghastly Sarlacc made its home. However, Lucas also approved Fett's comeback in the expanded universe. And of course, by going back in time with the prequels, the Star Wars creator has brought Boba Fett back to life himself, albeit at a much younger age.” As long as books don’t contradict the movies they can be viewed as good reference for information. If you go solely on the movies you limit yourself to more ideas, more stories, more fun. Any other contradictions that are carried so far into the current novels being written? I have not seen an answer for how the Force an Energy field can choose sides. Grip is only a use of telekenisis which is a power based solely on intent. Why can lightning only be a darkside power? Go on a what if scenario. What if a Jedi found another way to create lightning from the Force. Yoda says that going to the dark side is quicker and easier so gaining an ability such as creating lightning by use of the light side would be a longer more difficult path. The reason that they would use a lightsaber over it is very simple. To kill with a lightsaber you do not need to be drawing on the Force. To kill someone with lightning is using the Force to kill which a Jedi cannot do. That goes beyond using it for defense. Having 15 enemies coming at you all at once and using lightning to knock them back however is much different. Unfortunately hate does keep getting used here and even going on the NJO novels the Jedi should not hate the Vong. New understandings of the Force happen in the movies. Qui Gon’s voice in episode 2 while Yoda meditated was something unexpected since it was not known that someone could keep their essence in the Force (I can’t really think of a way to better phrase than that, but it’s the reason obi-wan can appear before Luke). The idea that the Force has no sides is simply a new idea to most people. Because people still have sides. If a jedi starts pushing people off cliffs then they are using the Force to attack and breaking their code which can lead to them following the dark path. Yoda mentions following the dark path forever dominating your destiny not following the dark side. We aren’t asking for anyone to change alter how they see things, just expand on them and adapt them to newer concepts that have not been explored before. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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Eeth Koth - Student
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Well as for major contradictions, Boba fett is the most prominant example. In the EU they didn't make him a clone, didn't include jango or anything, he was a journeyman protector from concord dawn. (as seen in the bounty hunter wars). Also, the EU kept boba fett alive while Lucas intended for him to die in that sarlaac pit. (Yes, he actually did, he said so).
Those are just a few contradictions, and it would only take a little digging to find some more. Yes, the only way lightning is formed is through anger, and a Jedi cannot hate. If Jedi were able to use lightning as a light force power im sure they would use it all the time. I mean how is zapping someone different from cutting them down with their lightsaber? Lightning is a dark power only. Jedi should never hate. Should they love the sith? No. But I hope you guys know there is more than just love and hate. I mean I don't love you guys, but i don't hate you either. There is stuff in between, such as indifference. Obviously though you guys have embedded your minds into thinking their are no sides of the Force etc, but I am thinking its more than likely because of what youve read in the novels. And as Ive stated the novels can't be trusted as official. I've noticed most of the evidence here has been things from novels, so if you would like to argue my points I would suggest using movie references. If you guys really still only believe in the a jedi or sith can use any power they like based soley on intent theory, then we may as well stop debating now since neither of us will convince eachother. P.S. Grip is merely an extention of telekinesis, its not a power of its own. This comment was edited by Eeth Koth on Dec 24 2002 12:09am. |
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Kay Mata - Ex-Student |
Jedi's are just Siths that control they're hatred and Siths are Jedis that focus there training on hate and dark emotions, I follow Silent Whisper's theory on : The Force is One and has no sides...
By letting those feelings get into them the Siths are somehow evil, because the Jedis don't follow their path of destruction they fight them _______________ Back for good... This comment was edited by Kay Mata on Dec 23 2002 08:33pm. |
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Charon - Ex-Student 
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First off. The Jedi are an order dedicated to understanding the force and it's potential use for the greater good of the people. Jedi is not an equal term for light force user. So no, a Jedi's anger, or failure to control that anger does not remove the training he's allready had, not making him any less a Jedi. Unless his actions are considered cause for him to be expelled from the order. A Jedi is meant to be a peacekeeper, mediator, and role-model. Like a police officer. A Jedi must not hate, in the same way a Detective must not hate, because it interferes with fair judgement of a situation, or in extreme cases, a person. The Jedi code does not exist to prevent Force lightning, it exists to prevent rogue cops. _______________ spirit's searing pain battlefield of broken glass fallen speak to me --Charon |
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Buzz - Student
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Yes Palpatine's Lightning was fueled by his hatred and his dark side but you are missing the point. Why does the lightning need to be fueled by hatred and anger? Is that the only way it can be formed? And take the focus off of lightning what about other powers? Luke uses grip, does that mean he was using his anger to do it? In the novel I,Jedi, Mara talks about there not being much difference between what she was taught by Palpatine and what she learned at the academy. Its just using a cleaner type of fuel as she put it, one that won't burn out the engine.
There is nothing wrong with using the Expanded Universe. Especially the novels. Jedi Outcast is a part of the EU as well. But I would love to hear the contradictions within the Expanded Universe novels, and don't go pulling out mission to mount yoda or books like that. Go look at any recently published book. Many of the Bantam books had partial time line in the back and the NJO novels have a great timeline to go by how the novels happen and I have read most of them and have never seen any major contradictions in them. You keep looking to the Force as having sides as well, yet you didn't answer how the Force can take sides since it is really just an energy field? It can't is the answer I have and if you can explain it in a way that can really get it acrossed then congratulations. But when someone hears a person say there are no sides to the Force they probably miss something: The Force is an energy field and has no sides, but that doesn't mean you don't. Each person has their own dark and light side. "This is the shameful secret fo the Jedi: There is no Darkside. The is one, The Force is everything, and everything is the Force....The Force does not take sides. The Force does not even have sides." -Vergere, Traitor. The novels try to stay as close to the Movies as they can. Vergere is a Jedi of the Old Republic she was in Rogue Planet and reappears in the New Jedi Order. These books are being written while production is going into the prequels, and she's not happy about Luke allowing Jedi to marry either. And going solely on the movies leaves a lot of things open and questions about other things. EU gives explanations and what's in there is approved by Lucas. He approved Boba Fett coming back to life from the Sarlacc. As for a Jedi shouldn't hate, well no one should really hate but anger and hate are different, the reason that a jedi shouldn't hate is because there is that chance that they will use that hatred as fuel in their use of the Force, which is where the problems come from. Once again Traitor is an excellent novel to broaden your ideas on the Force. If you think what it says contradicts other ideas you've read in the novels or seen in the movies then perhaps you aren't looking the right way and need to switch to a different certain point of view. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. This comment was edited by Buzz on Dec 23 2002 03:47pm. |
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