| Staff Butterfly Cheap?? | |
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n00b - Student  |
Been hearing a lot of "butterfly is cheap" talk again. How do you feel? _______________ Gone but hopefully not forgotten... |
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Is the staff butterfly "cheap?"
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n00b - Student 
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I think JavaGuy is thinking what I'm thinking. I've duelled some of the top ten on Darkside. There was always variety in the moves. You have to keep them guessing or you will get annihilated. I have a very good staff vs. staff counter to the butterfly and I try to taunt the other guy into butterflying me so I can shred him into pieces  I've seen some well timed counters to the butterfly from dual saber users. Just at the right moment, do the kata. Its like LaMachine  _______________ Gone but hopefully not forgotten... This comment was edited by n00b on Oct 21 2003 02:50am. |
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3th - Retired 
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yeah there are. side step!  _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! |
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O2B-1Dai - Ex-Student 
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Ahh, righto...I'd been trying to figure out what it could have stood for...not real easy lol! So I'm guessing that YDFA stands for yellow death from above? That funky flip-half-twist-cut'ur'face'off move? Since these are incorperated in to JA, is there any effective counters? _______________ A true friend isn't the one bailing you out of jail, he's the one sitting next to you saying, "Man, that was cool!" 
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Ulic Belouve - Student 
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yeah, RDFA is a JK2 term. It stands for Red "Death From Above". In JK2, there was a move where you really leapt across the room to cleave a person in half. Was spammed a lot by noobies, but really, it was cheezy. I got to the point where one only hit me by extreme luck, and I think a lot of others got that way too. I agree with Java, and I think I made my points down below. You'll get around this in no time. The only reason I'm complaining about this is the same reason I would ever complain about someone doing tons of RDFAs and catching me in the end....it's annoying, for one, even more so when they do 50 of them and then finally hit you. But those are becoming less and less. Far more players are adding variety to their tactics, and I think the problem will work itself out on the player-side. Do there need to be minor adjustments to the power of this attack? Maybe. Minor. But I think Raven and the coders will be smart enough to take care of it ina patch. If they don't, like I said, I think it will become less of a problem over time. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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O2B-1Dai - Ex-Student
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umm...ok, noobish question - What does rdfa stand for? _______________ A true friend isn't the one bailing you out of jail, he's the one sitting next to you saying, "Man, that was cool!"
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Buzz - Student 
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I'd assume its possible. You are able to force push those doing an Rdfa in JK2 so as long as that wasn't edited it should happen. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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O2B-1Dai - Ex-Student
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Has anyone tried to force-push a butterfly-er? The bots never use the butterfly attack, so I can't play around with it... _______________ A true friend isn't the one bailing you out of jail, he's the one sitting next to you saying, "Man, that was cool!"
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JavaGuy - Student 
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Okay, I still suck at JK3, but I think I was a pretty good duelist at JK2, and I don't think my thoughts about move-spamming will change. When a good player sees someone spamming the same move or couple of moves over and over, he thinks "That guy only knows how to do one or two moves. I'll take him apart," and that's exactly what happens. A good player may advise you that you'll do better if you stop spamming, but he'll never COMPLAIN that you spam the same move all the time. If anything, he'll thank you for being so predictable. When a not-so-good player sees someone doing the same move over and over, and when he doesn't know how to counter that move, he's more likely to whine about it. Nobody, including me, likes to be incessantly hit with a move he can't counter. The solution, however, is not to complain about spamming, but to learn to counter it, and in fact spammers are highly useful in that endeavor. _______________ My signature is only one line. You're welcome. |
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Buzz - Student 
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I don't consider doing a move twice in a duel spamming. I see people use a lunge 3 or more time in duels on a regular basis. Also there is nothing wrong with getting the full shield before every duel. You know exactly how much health you have and so does your opponent. Usually when you go and challenge a person that has just finished dueling you've probably got full shield. We're not running a gauntlet here to see how many you can get through without getting more health and losing. In fact I'm willing to bet C1 will be having the set dueling shield and health again in the JA Reloaded Mod. So untill you are certain you know your opponents shield strength everytime you might as well assume they're at full and you might as well be too. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
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n00b - Student 
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Last night some guy wouldn't duel me. He said he didn't fight people who spammed. What was funny, is this moron did at least two butterflies a duel. He also had to have the 100 shield powerup before every duel. Hmmmm. What a puppy _______________ Gone but hopefully not forgotten... |
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Vasper Ba'xian - Student 
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A move is a move. Weather someone uses lunge a lot or the butterfly, its their style. If you know what their gonna do then find away to exploit it. Everyone has their own style. There is probly a move that all of you like to use more than any other. Its all about style to me, some are effective and are not. _______________ Brother to: Tamal, Kavar, J.D.,Jermia, Devlin, Ulic, Xiabara, Seij,Tarron Mib,>>>ROCK ON .My Spacescapes art page.My Everything Else art page. MY FAV. Jedi Are: Qui-Gon Jinn, Corran Horn, and Anakin Solo. Unofficial Master to Tamal. and Kavar. Founder of the Wuji Hundun Jian saber style. Proud owner of Tamal's 200th comment!//Proud owner of Refl3x's 300th comment!>>>Proud owner of Tyrant's 800th comment>>>Proud owner of Lucky's 170th comment>>>Proud owner of BDKawika's 444th comment>>>To except Existance is to except Reality.
This comment was edited by Vasper Ba'xian on Oct 18 2003 04:56pm. |
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Ulic Belouve - Student
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Yeah. I just see it as messing up strategy. I can avoid it a lot, but if they spam it, eventually I will get hit by it, and it sucks. I hate going through the effort of strategy and tactics just to be killed by a one-hit from some lamer. But it will most likely be adjustable. I think my only real beef is that I move a lot, and jumping takes more force than I enjoy. As do moves. some adjustments might need to be made on the "sucking up force thing" so that we have more room to counter such butterflies. So overall, I think that if adjustments were made on both ends, on the butterflies, and on the "mana cost" of each move, then I think a good balance would come about. Change each one slightly, and not any ONE too much. There ARE ways around the butterfly, but it is tougher than it really should be, makes an imbalance. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
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Marcel Mandarijn - Student 
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it's not cheap, it just sux, u gotta be very lucky to hit something with it and not be hit yerself. |
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Janus - Retired 
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I have to say, after playing all different types of players, with all different types of blades, fighting their own selective styles, I don't see any particular saber as being super compared to the others. So when the butterfly attack is singled out as superior, I have to say check out the red saber single stance. That's some wicked stuff right there. The game to me is a twisted verson of Rock/Paper/Scissor. Certain sabers have disadvantages and advantages to other types. It's up to the user to study their opponent, their selective style and adapt themselves to it, using their saber of choice to take the oppoenent down. Do I see gamers fight with one move alot? Yes, Do I see gamers fight with nothing but Katas alot? Definitely. But can they be beaten? For sure! It takes time, patience, and preserverance. I've fought so many of you and its been great, I hope to continue to improve while helping you all to improve yourselves as well. See you in game! _______________ Be honorable, be friendly, be trustworthy. Show respect to all whom you meet. Don't forget you learn when you win AND when you lose. Be the first to admit mistake AND the first to correct it. Be the shoulder for someone to lean on. Always remember those that sacrificed time to help you. Thank you Odan Wei, Vladarion, 3th, Moridin, n00b, Motrec, Faded, Leif, and Tido, you will not be forgotten as the ones to make you remember, it's all about fun... |
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Jacen Aratan - Student |
Ryder, use the "Delete" option next to edit. |
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Ryder - Ex-Student 
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Vladarion and I discussed this just last night (Oct. 12th). While it is sort of cheap if the staff wielder intentionally spams it over and over and over and over, he or she may not, in fact being doing it intentionally. We've both realized that while trying to do something entirely different we end up doing a butterfly by mistake, so it may or may not look like we're spamming it. Another point: Damage over time. Someone else brought this idea into the light when we were discussing it. If you'll notice, the longer your saber is touching someone's model during a swing, the more damage you'll do. So some of those last four or so turns in the butterfly may be making one-hit kills or doing tremendous damage because it's touching someone's model for longer peroid of time than a regular swing. Butterfly with movie damage turned on... now THAT'S cheap. - Notation Ahhh, but me and n00b had one last night! (Oct.13th)  Im am a Staff user, I find people overrate Staff, it can be countered just as easy as any other Saber. Imo. The thing is, Staff only really has its aggresive attacks and quickness. It's meant to be an aggresive Saber when which you persist, and time your attacks if your under attack. It doesn't require as much stratedgy, as Dual or Single. Maybe when people fight the way Dual, Single was meant to be fought, they'll see some results. Don't get me wrong, Im not generalising people, there are some great players out that do. Anyway.. Roll - Tested for 5 dmg the other night, compared to an overwhelming 100+ for Dual, or Single. Backstab - Also ridiculously low dmg compared to Dual. Haven't seen single. Twirl Saber defend? No idea of the name, but I mean Staff's is almost useless, and I rarely find a time that it can be pulled off effectively. Dual, lots of range, doesn't spin it around users head (Why on earth do that? Is he trying to take off?) Dual also has the power to backstab straight after if an attack comes from behind, with dmg. Staff can't, they'll get a hit back for more than backstab is worth. Butterfly - Staff's only real good move to do damage. I don't believe it should be one hit, thats crazy, and ruins the duel.. But, it should hold power over Dual. As of now, dual's can kill in one, it just can't be pulled off as much. I think Butterfly becomes cheap when its spammed. And once its reduced in damage, by who knos how much, maybe it'll be considered as a good attack. Or worse, useless like the rest of Staff's moves. Leaving Staff users to swing the saber, and get bashed for 'spamming'. You can't win. We all kno the damage is random sometimes, it has to be dealt with. I hope by patch that is changed. But until then, lay off Staff. I think the majority of complaining about it comes from Sore losers from Jk2 who can't adapt to the game. They believe only Single requires skill, because they've learnt how to use it. This comment was edited by Ryder on Oct 14 2003 07:07pm. |
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n00b - Student
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To agree with me is to believe its just part of the game. Sorry for any confusion. I do not believe it is cheap, so spam away _______________ Gone but hopefully not forgotten... |
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O2B-1Dai - Ex-Student 
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can you effectivly counter with a saber throw? Or does it get deflected\parried? _______________ A true friend isn't the one bailing you out of jail, he's the one sitting next to you saying, "Man, that was cool!"
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Mikel Rider - Student 
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Humm, it looks like we have a few defininitions of cheap running rampid here. I believe cheap to be a low quality move, which is how I view the forward butterfly attack, I am sorry if anyone else feels like I am bitching, but i didn't open this can of worms, I am just puttin mine in. So how do you guys define cheap, I think that little effort was put into the butterfly attack and that it could be much better, so it is cheap/low quality. _______________ Using no way as way. Having no limitation as limitation. |
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Notation - Student 
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Vladarion and I discussed this just last night (Oct. 12th). While it is sort of cheap if the staff wielder intentionally spams it over and over and over and over, he or she may not, in fact being doing it intentionally. We've both realized that while trying to do something entirely different we end up doing a butterfly by mistake, so it may or may not look like we're spamming it. Another point: Damage over time. Someone else brought this idea into the light when we were discussing it. If you'll notice, the longer your saber is touching someone's model during a swing, the more damage you'll do. So some of those last four or so turns in the butterfly may be making one-hit kills or doing tremendous damage because it's touching someone's model for longer peroid of time than a regular swing. Butterfly with movie damage turned on... now THAT'S cheap. This comment was edited by Notation on Oct 13 2003 03:54pm. |
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D@RtHM@UL - Student 
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Perhaps it is cheap, still its easy to avoid the move |
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YinYang - Ex-Student 
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Maul its not a strong move fora CHEAP movement it does the jedi isnt even putign NE effort into the move so in reality its a WEAK move so it shouldnt take devistating energy towards the victum so it IS cheap atm until they patch it _______________ Sister to Smily,Axion,and CT Friend to ALL... SMILY, LUKE,MAGRA,AND KOYI RULE!!!!! . . : :There is ALWAYS 2 Yin and Yang , Good and Evil: : . . |
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D@RtHM@UL - Student
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No it isnt cheap just because its a strong move. Besides its easy to avoid since the user has limited control over it. Just jump and he cant hit you. Simple eh |
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JAcen LW Solo - Retired 
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Annoying yes , cheap no. The problem is the damage system not the move. It's not more cheap then the yellow sizors on JK2. Honestly what's the difference. I know that it takes skill and timing to do the scissours properly. Like Ulic said , the JK3 move will be patched so it wont be a spamming move because the damage won't be the same and will require the same precision and timing as the yellow scissors. So although I find it extremely annoying when I fight a butterfly spammer (or little ballerina like L-Rod calls them) it is my opinion that it is not a cheap move. Counters and strategies will be found to fight it. Stop bitching about it and start working on them , I know I will. eheheh _______________ "Though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I shall fear no evil .For I am the baddest mofo in the valley" |
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Odan-Wei Belouve - Student 
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I just agree with you nOOb. As a staff user, I know that you may sometimes find yourself doing a butterfly (and spamming it) without the intention of doing it. Rolling stab and butterfly are so close in the way you do them with the staff that it may happen that your opponent didn't want to butterfly you ! But on the other hand, some like to spam it. And yes, there is always a way to avoid getting trapped into a movement like this one or the katas. But still if you're getting close to your opponent, to press him and keep your advantage, the ones who will spam butterflies or katas will get you in no time... And you just have to feel sorry and hope you'll be able to withdraw quickly the next time you fight them... *ahem* I won't take more space but I expressed myself on the subject of katas and 'combo' moves like the butterfly in a thread, in the Academy Discussion Forum... Odan-Wei _______________ Padawan and brother to SmilyKrazy - Adopted in the Belouve Family by Fizz and Bubu, BELOUVE ON! - Vladarion, you'll always be in my heart and memories - Spam-Padawan of Jacen Aratan - [DJ is my beloved wife! - JA Family: Brothers:
Virtue, Furi0us, Vladarion, Hardwired, Janus, Axion, D@RtHM@UL, Motrec, Mike , xAnAtOs , Luke Skywalker; Little bro to SilkMonkey ; Special kind of brother to Kenyon ; Sisters in-law: Rosered, Ain-Soph Aur] Photoshop works: click here |
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