| Bush vs. Kerry | |
|
Halendor - ex-Student  |
I was just wondering, now it's final that Kerry is going to battle Bush in the elections, who would you vote for, and please tell us why. This post was edited by Halendor on Mar 05 2004 04:38pm. |
| Poll | ||
Who would you vote for?
|
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! | Previous Comments > |
| Comments |
|
Halendor - Ex-Student 
|
Quote: So if Heinz has offices in the US, UK, Canada, and France, then how can Kerry criticize offshoring jobs? Like DJ said, it's good business. I think what Kerry meant that he doesn't like it when American companies 'export' jobs that could have been done by Americans, to other countries. For example constructing a car partially in Canada because production costs are cheaper there. These companies don't need their presence in other countries. Multinationals like Heinz and MacDonalds need their presence in other countries. MacDonalds is easier as an example. McDonalds already has as much restaurants in the US as they think is profitable. They need to have restaurants in other countries too, to sell their products there as well. Those offshore jobs couln't have been done by Americans, so there is no point critizing them. Hope that makes sense  |
|
Halendor - Ex-Student 
|
I did some research on Heinz. It's not located in Germany. Facts: Founders name is Henry John Heinz[1]. Possible German ancestors, but Henry John is definetly not a german name. H.J. Heinz company established in 1869[1]. Heinz U.S.A. established in 1869, in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania[2]. H.J. Heinz GMBH established in 1970 in Düsseldorf, Germany[3]. So, if you look at the dates, you have to conclude Heinz was first established in the USA and their first German factory 101 years later. [1]: http://www.heinz.com/jsp/corporate.jsp [2]: http://www.heinz.com/jsp/di/corp_pro2003/corpProfile6.jsp [3]: http://www.heinz.com/jsp/di/corp_pro2003/corpProfile7.jsp This comment was edited by Halendor on Apr 09 2004 10:25am. |
|
Mitch - Student 
|
My source for the "baby killer" comments was the speech he gave the senate armed service comittee, which Ulic just posted an excerpt from. The speech was replayed on Fox News or CSPAN just last week... _______________ Power Preceived, is Power Acheived.' Brother to 3th, Janus, and Vlad. |
|
Ulic Belouve - Student 
|
Here, I'll throw Mitch a bone on the "baby killer" source: On April 22, 1971 (link in PDF), Kerry told a Senate committee that U.S. servicemen "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned on the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam." He said these were "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command." Not really the "baby killer" quote people think of, but it's relevant nonetheless. I'll keep looking for anything "baby-killer" but I think this is the best one is going to get. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. This comment was edited by Ulic Belouve on Apr 07 2004 03:18pm. |
|
Buzz - Student 
|
Mitch you want him to post the link he got his information from but you are the one saying that kerry called our soldiers in Vietnam baby killers, and that Heinz is located in Germany. Practice what you preach man. Give you sources for these things instead of asking others to give theirs. Both the Liberal and Conservative Spectrums of the Media spin information to make them seem right. _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
Rahn del Sol - Student 
|
I found this one to be interesting. Who pays the taxes? Bruce Bartlett http://www.townhall.com/columnists/brucebartlett/bb20040406.shtml Just in time for tax season, the Congressional Budget Office has released new data on distribution of the tax burden. Contrary to popular belief, they show that taxes on the wealthy have risen over time and that the Bush tax cut in 2001 barely kept it from rising further. A convenient starting point is 1984. The Reagan tax cut was then fully phased in (which reduced the top statutory income tax rate from 70 percent to 50 percent) and the 1983 Social Security tax increase had already taken effect (which raised the OASI tax rate from a combined 9.5 percent to 10.4 percent). In that year, those in the bottom quintile (20 percent of households) paid an average federal tax rate (individual, payroll, corporate and excise) of 10.2 percent. Those in the top quintile paid 24.5 percent, the top 10 percent paid 25.2 percent, the top 5 percent paid 26.1 percent, and the top 1 percent paid 28.2 percent. Thus, those at the top paid about two and a half times more than those at the bottom. Fast forward to 2001 (latest year in the CBO study). The top statutory income tax rate has fallen to 39.1 percent, and the total payroll tax rate has risen from 14 percent to 15.3 percent. If one knew these figures in 1984, almost all economists would have projected a sharp decline in taxes paid by the rich and an increase in those paid by the poor. In fact, the data show that those in the bottom quintile are only paying about half what they did 20 years ago: 5.4 percent. This is down from 6.4 percent just the year before, owing to the Bush tax cut. Those in the top quintile did pay a little less in 2001 than they did in 2000: 26.8 percent versus 28 percent. But this is still well above the average tax rate they paid in 1984. Interestingly, those at the very top saw virtually no cut at all, even though liberals constantly say that they got the lion's share of the 2001 tax cut. Between 2000 and 2001, those in the top 10 percent of households saw a drop from 29.7 percent to 28.6 percent, and those in the top 5 percent saw a decline from 31.1 percent to 30.1, but those in the top 1 percent saw their effective tax rate virtually unchanged: 33.2 percent versus 33 percent. All of those in the middle three quintiles paid less in 2001 than they paid in 1984. In other words, between 1984 and 2001 average tax rates for the wealthy substantially increased, while at least 80 percent of households paid considerably less. Progressivity rose as the wealthy now pay about six times more than the poor. Looking at the share of taxes paid shows a similar pattern. From 1984 to 2001, those in the bottom quintile reduced their share of the total tax burden from 2.4 percent to 1.1 percent. Those in the top quintile saw their share rise from 55.6 percent to 65.3 percent. Among the ultra wealthy, the top 10 percent increased their share from 39.3 percent to 50 percent, the top 5 percent raised their share from 28.2 percent to 38.5 percent, and that of those in the top 1 percent went up from 14.7 percent to 22.7 percent. In short, the poor paid half as much of the federal tax burden in 2001 as they did in 1984, while the rich paid about 50 percent more. Those in the middle paid about a third less. One would think that those on the left would be happy about this trend. Instead, they constantly demagogue the wealthy as deadbeats unwilling to bear their "fair share" of the tax burden, and berate the Bush tax cuts for having "slashed" taxes for the wealthy, while the rest of us pay more. As is so often the case, the truth is exactly the opposite of that portrayed in the liberal worldview. Unfortunately, all taxpayers pay a price for the steeply graduated tax system that has evolved. A new study by economists Steven Cassou and Kevin Lansing shows that a flat rate tax would add significantly to economic growth. Published in the April issue of Economic Inquiry, it concludes that real per capita gross domestic product might rise by 0.143 percentage points per year. This may not sound like much, but it's the difference between doubling in 33 years instead of 36 years. The Cassou-Lansing study found that flattening the marginal tax rate schedule causes most of the economic gains, which explains why tax burdens on the rich rose as their statutory rates fell. Raising statutory rates on the rich, as John Kerry proposes, likely would reverse this trend, causing taxes on the poor and middle class to rise. Bruce Bartlett is a senior fellow at the National Center for Policy Analysis, a Townhall.com member group. _______________ http://steamcommunity.com/id/citizen059 |
|
Mitch - Student
|
What website did you get those records from? I know it says the Boston Globe but what site? Just curious, if there factual I applaud you for finding them. However from what I understood from watching the News, listening to Rush Limbaugh and Mitch Albom, those records were kept private by Kerry himself. _______________ Power Preceived, is Power Acheived.' Brother to 3th, Janus, and Vlad. |
|
{MOTL}JediPhreaK - Student 
|
One thing I really want to point out is that you should not believe what the media says. I want a President that the Rest of the World can respect and put up a good face for our nation. I'd never support a candidate just to get bush out, or anything as such. I want you to all find out for yourself the truth. Don't just let the media tell you how to think. Some of the links I am providing are from the kerry Website, but I have done my best to verify the facts from other sources. I will not ever provide information I have not found thru other means as well. About Kerry Voting NO on Bills Something else I would like to know is why GW is not as of yet willing to debate the issues in an open forum. I'd like to get a better feel for where the cadidates sit on the issues and how they respond to those things brought up by the other. Quote: On March 13th, John Kerry called on George W. Bush to agree to substantive monthly debates on the great issues facing America. Bush hasn't hesitated to launch a series of misleading negative TV ads against Kerry, but he still hasn't accepted Kerry's challenge to give the American people what they deserve: an honest, open discussion about America's future. On April 1st, Governor Jeanne Shaheen, Kerry National Campaign Chairwoman, called on Bush-Cheney Chairman Marc Racicot to accept John Kerry’s invitation to hold six substantive, respectful debates with George Bush. |
|
{MOTL}JediPhreaK - Student 
|
John Kerry's Service Record John Kerry volunteered for service in the Navy during the Vietnam War, where he served as skipper of a Swift Boat. Lt. Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, Bronze Star with V, three awards of the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon, Navy Presidential Unit Citation, Navy Unit Commendation Ribbon, National Defense Service Medal, Vietnam Service Medal, and the Vietnam Campaign Medal. He is a cofounder of the Vietnam Veterans of America and a life member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. Kerry is also a member of the NamVets Association, the SWIFT Boat Sailors Association, and is the honorary co-chair of the United States Navy Memorial Foundation, a Corporate Council Member of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund and sits on the Advisory Council for the Library of Congress’s Veterans History Project. In the years since Kerry returned from Vietnam, he has stood up for veterans and the issues of importance to veterans, like mandatory funding for VA healthcare, and concurrent receipt. John Kerry has made it his life's work to remind politicians that the first definition of patriotism is how a grateful nation treats its veterans. John Kerry's Vietnam Service Record: February 18, 1966 – Kerry formally enlists in the U.S. Navy August 22, 1966 – Kerry reports for Naval Officer Candidate School at the U.S. Naval Training Center in Newport, Rhode Island December 16, 1966 – Kerry receives commission as an Ensign January 3, 1967 – Kerry reports for duty at the Naval Schools Command at Treasure Island (CA)-Takes 10 week Officer Damage Control Course March 22, 1967 – Reports to U.S. Fleet Anti-Air Warfare Training Center (CA). Receives training as a Combat Information Center Watch Officer. June 8, 1967 – Kerry reports to USS Gridley-serves in several capacities February 9, 1968 – USS Gridley departs for a Western Pacific (WESTPAC) deployment, to engage in operations in support of the Vietnam War. Ship spends time in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand February 10, 1968 – Kerry requests duty in Vietnam He lists his first preference for a position as an officer in charge of a Swift Boat (designated PCF for Patrol Craft Fast), his second as an officer in a patrol boat (designated PBR, for Patrol Boat River) squadron May 27, 1968 – USS Gridley sets sail for the US June 6, 1968 – Kerry arrives in Long Beach the day after Senator Robert F. Kennedy is killed in Los Angeles June 16, 1968 – Kerry promoted to Lieutenant, Junior Grade July 20, 1968 – Kerry leaves Gridley for specialized training at the Naval Amphibious Base in Coronado, CA in preparation for service as commander of a Swift Boat. These unarmored, but heavily armed, fifty foot aluminum hulled patrol boats depended on speed and agility when engaging the enemy. November 17, 1968 – Upon completion of his training, Kerry reports for duty to Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14, Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam. December 1968 through January 1969 – Kerry commands PCF-44 December 2, 1968 – Kerry experiences first intense combat; receives first combat related injury. December 6, 1968 – Kerry moved to Coastal Division 11 at An Thoi on Phu Quoc Island December 13, 1968 – Kerry moved to Coastal Division 13, Cam Ranh Bay December 24, 1968 – Kerry involved in combat during the Christmas Eve truce of 1968. The truce was three minutes old when mortar fire exploded around Lieutenant Kerry and his five-man crew. Reacting swiftly, John Kerry and his crew silenced the machine gun nest January 22, 1969 – Kerry and other Swift boat commanders travel to Saigon for meeting with Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, Commander Naval Forces Vietnam (COMNAVFORV), and Gen. Creighton Abrams, Commander United States Military Assistance Command Vietnam (COMUSMACV) Late January, 1969 – Kerry joined his 5 man crew on PCF-94 Late January through Early March, 1969 – Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta. Kerry's crew included engineman Eugene Thorson, later an Iowa cement mason; David Alston, then the crew's only African-American and today a minister in South Carolina; petty officer Del Sandusky of Illinois; rear gunner and quartermaster Michael Medeiros of California; and the late Tom Belodeau, who joined the crew fresh out of Chelmsford High School in Massachusetts. Others rotated in and out of the crew. The most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell." February 20, 1969 – Kerry and crew involved in combat; Kerry receives second combat injury – Kerry earned his second Purple Heart after sustaining a shrapnel wound in his left thigh. February 28, 1969 – For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong insurgents in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 28 February 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94 and Officer in Tactical Command of a three-boat mission. As the force approached the target area on the narrow Dong Cung River, all units came under intense automatic weapons and small arms fire from an entrenched enemy force less than fifty-feet away. Unhesitatingly, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered his boat to attack as all units opened fire and beached directly in front of the enemy ambushers. The daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers. The PCF gunners captured many enemy weapons in the battle that followed. On a request from U.S. Army advisors ashore, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered PCFs 94 and 23 further up river to suppress enemy sniper fire. After proceeding approximately eight hundred yards, the boats again were taken under fire from a heavily foliated area and B-40 rocket exploded close aboard PCF-94; with utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy. Upon sweeping the area an immediate search uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed. The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. March 13, 1969 – For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 13 March 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA Lords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry’s calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry is authorized to wear the Combat “V”. March 17, 1969 – The policy of Coastal Squadron One, the swift boat command, was to send home any individual who is wounded three times in action. After sustaining his third wound from enemy action in Vietnam, Kerry was granted relief under this policy. Early April, 1969 – Kerry departs Vietnam April 11, 1969 – Kerry reports for duty at the Military Sea Transportation Service, U.S. Atlantic Fleet in Brooklyn, NY. January 1, 1970 – Kerry promoted to (full) Lieutenant January 3, 1970 – Kerry requests discharge March 1, 1970 – Kerry’s date of separation from Active Duty April 29, 1970 – Kerry listed as Registrant who has completed service [Source: Boston Globe, “John Kerry, the Making of a Candidate”, 6/15/03-6/21/03; Tour of Duty by Douglas Brinkley, Published by William Morrow 2003; Selective Service System, National Headquarter] |
|
Ulic Belouve - Student
|
Ok, wait... So if Heinz has offices in the US, UK, Canada, and France, then how can Kerry criticize offshoring jobs? Like DJ said, it's good business. Also, ofshoring jobs helps out in the trade balance. Let me elaborate: The US buys Japanese cars. This puts, say, $2 MIL US DOLLARS in Japan's bank account in the trade balance. In return, Japan decides to buy office buildings in New York, for $2 MILLION US DOLLARS. So you would think the trade balance is even, right? No. Real estate does not count in the trade balance. Japan would still have $2 Miillion US DOLLARS to spend. However, by their buying office buildings, they employ US construction workers to build their offices, wire them, etc. So they have $2 Million US Dollars left to spend. So they decide that Windows XP is a nice program (Just bear with me, OK?), and they buy $2 Million worth of that. OK, NOW we have to be even in the trade balance, right? Wrong. Software does not count in the trade balance, the plastic and packaging does. So, about, say, $2000 is taken out of the trade balance. Never mind the amount of jobs that would be created making software for Japan. So, the US invests/offshores $2 Million, and we (in the above illustration) get $4 Million invested back, while the trade balance shows about 1.98 Million left in Japan's accounts. That's just a REALLY boiled down version. I'm sorry I'm not a textbook on Global Economics. but then, if I were, I couldn't type. Ah well. So, decent points all around. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. This comment was edited by Ulic Belouve on Apr 07 2004 03:13pm. |
|
DJ Sith - Jedi Council 
|
Quote: Also Heinz has business offices and factories in France, the UK, Canada, and The US. That's called "good business".  You wouldn't poo poo McDonalds for having a dozen stores in every world city would you?Here's my take again. I lost my job during the bush administration. I don't blame that on him. I blame that on my dummy managers at the place. What I don't like is this came right around that little $300 tax refund for the "workers of america". What the hell was that. Sure it's a bit of money, but it means diddly squat in the long run. If 200 million ppl each got a check like this (I don't know the facts, so im assuming 200 of the 260 million ppl here are working) then that's 600 BILLION dollars he just pissed away in a moronic attempt to bolster the economy. Oh that and the whole cowboy diplomacy thing, defecating on international law and the enviornment, writing discrimination into the constitution, choking on pretzels, kicking my dog, and parking his car in my lawn. _______________ My car is made of Nerf. |
|
(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student 
|
This is a quote right off the Heinze website Quote: Heinz is the most global U.S.-based food company, with a world-class portfolio of powerful brands holding number-one and number-two market positions in more than 50 countries. Also thier world headquaters is based in Pittsburg Also Heinz has business offices and factories in France, the UK, Canada, and The US. So do some research before you just make *beautiful prose* up. If you don't know something just say so. *edited by dj-censormatic*  _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) This comment was edited by DJ Sith on Apr 06 2004 08:33pm. |
|
Plo Koon - Student 
|
well if you think about it he was killing people to help what couldve been me or you,think about it he was over there doing his job risking his life for strangers like any other soldier _______________ Free Tibet! Click this link,and learn Here too |
|
Mitch - Student 
|
John Kerry was in Vietnam. Whats funny about it is he served only 4 months of what was supposed to be a 12 month tour, managed to obtain 3 purple hearts without ever going to a hospital, and, on top of all this, won't release his military service records, hrmm, I wonder why? And Im pretty sure Heinz is still based in Germany. Mitch _______________ Power Preceived, is Power Acheived.' Brother to 3th, Janus, and Vlad. This comment was edited by Mitch on Apr 06 2004 04:07pm. |
|
(Jedi)Obi-JK - Student 
|
Quote: Kerry ridicules Bush because of loss in jobs and a failing economy, yet, if Kerry gets in office it is almost guranteed that hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost in the automotive industry...(This annoys me expecially because my dad works in the automotive industry) The job kerry will create are NOT in the auto industry ( I did read where they were but I forget ) Losing job in the auto-industry? Oh no, not that, heaven forbid those fat-cats with white collars there arent eating stuffed boar for dinner, and lets not forget the Union assholes who dont do enough work to get thier blue collars dirty. I Live outside Detriot, Ford and GM right by me. I know people who work at all level in those companies, and the union works do thier damnest to make sure they do anything, while all the managers talk about planing the meeting they are going to plan. If Kerry wants to hurt the auto industry I say good for him. Maybe then they can rationalize having Mexico do 1/2 thier work, and still uping the price of cars. _______________ Silent Bob (Kevin Smith): You know, there's a million fine looking women in the world, dude. But they don't all bring you lasagna at work. Most of 'em just cheat on you. -Steve (Obi) |
|
Buzz - Student 
|
Um Mitch, I don't like Kerry but: He did serve in Vietnam so he was actually over there risking his life. And his wife is an heiress to the Heinz ketchup fortune through a past marriage in which her husband died, and I don't think he's getting all that much money from them anyways. Isn't Heinz Ketchup based in Pittsburgh PA anyways? _______________ When you are going through Hell, keep going. -Sir Winston Churchill. Those who seek power and control of others, no matter the level, no matter the intentions, should never be given it. |
|
Mitch - Student
|
Kerry has so many contradicting opinions its ridiculous. Case in point: John Kerry voted NO for a bill that was to supply our soldiers going over to Iraq with proper body armor...The bill did NOT pass. Later, he critisizes Bush for not sending our troops over there with that same body armor... Kerry ridicules Bush because of loss in jobs and a failing economy, yet, if Kerry gets in office it is almost guranteed that hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost in the automotive industry...(This annoys me expecially because my dad works in the automotive industry) The other thing that real chaps my arse about Kerry is that he called our fighting men in Vietnam baby killers on national TV. That is sick & wrong. Those men protected his freedom, as well as yours and mine, and then he has the balls to critisize the manner in which they did it. WRONG. Also I think its extremely humorous that John Kerry bags on Bush for offering foreginers jobs that americans normally wouldn't do...Yet most of his money came from the Heinz company, which is located in Germany I can honestly say that our choices for the presidency aren't great...In fact they suck. But, I say we should cut our losses and stick with Bush. All around, I think hes an okay president. Everyone has there flaws, some moreso than others *Cough*Kerry*Cough* Whatever you do, if your 18, get out and vote... TERRORISTS FOR JOHN KERRY!!!! _______________ Power Preceived, is Power Acheived.' Brother to 3th, Janus, and Vlad. This comment was edited by Mitch on Apr 06 2004 02:18am. |
|
Ulic Belouve - Student
|
And for Mr. Kerry, I give him this: You want jobs? We'll give you jobs. "U.S. payrolls grew at the fastest pace in nearly four years in March, the government said Friday, in a report that soared past Wall Street forecasts," CNN/Money reports: Quote: Payrolls outside the farm sector grew by 308,000 jobs in March, the Labor Department reported, compared with a revised gain of 46,000 in February. John Kerry has been betting that the sluggish job market will persuade Americans to turn President Bush out of office. There's no guarantee that the March jobs explosion will continue, but if it does, it'll be a long seven months for Kerry and the Dems. Of course, the Labor Department is biased against Kerry, right? There'll only interested in oil profits, right? After all, it's all about the oil, and the Labor Department couldn't POSSIBLY stay objective. Sure. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
|
Ulic Belouve - Student 
|
Yay Rahn! You come out with the commetn that I put in my signature, which was grand, but would be a world of trouble to back up. But it's still true. And then you drop in something like this. Far more scholarly than I would have thought (apart from any analysis tying things together, but oh well), but still much more than I would have even asked for. Great! But this is good. I like it. I'll only put in some brief commentary. I think that the Clark thing will not have the momentum to carry to November. And it may also do damage to the Democratic capaign, to where it will hurt the Republican cause, but hurt the Democratic cause too. Thus, they'd most likely let it burn out in time, and use something else to assault Bush with. That's been the big stories, are things that hurt Bush only, like the AWOL thing, ofshoring jobs, the economy. They were using 9-11 hot and heavily, until the 3-11 thing, and then the investigation shows screwups in the Clinton administration and approach. And Kerry is going back and forth on enough items also. I recall him being against giving tax breaks to corporations, but he's going to do that now, to win over the votes of people who think ofshoring is good for compaies. He'll play the "this is good too, and it keeps the jobs HERE" card. Well, yeah, it does all that, but one forgets the Trade Balance and Global Economy. They both do about the same thing for US corporations, but one boosts the Trade Balance and the Global Economy, which in the long run will boost the US economy. But I'm not going to teach a Global Economy class here. Even though I do have books on the topic that I think I will mail off to Kerry. Just so he can brush up on Global Economics. But, eh, my commentary. I've nothing big to contribute right now, so I'll go read some more or whatever. I'll let you know if I find anything good. And I'm working on those bumper stickers. Hehe. Yeah. _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. |
|
Rahn del Sol - Student
|
Sitting back and looking at it, that's all I'm gonna say on this issue. I hate getting involved in discussions like this. Right now I'm just worn out from trying to fix my connection problems to the JA servers.  _______________ http://steamcommunity.com/id/citizen059 |
|
Rahn del Sol - Student 
|
I don't really agree with that idea. Most of the world pretty much already thinks that Americans are lazy, stupid, and arrogant. They don't really dislike us any more right now than they did before. They just don't like it that we have a President who won't obey the sputtering mandates of a useless and ineffectual UN. Leading into the war against Iraq, people were most upset because France, Germany, China, and Russia didn't support us going in. They claimed we were "rushing" into war, that there HAD to be a peaceful resolution. People claim that Bush was just "after the oil", and that the rest of the world knows better. The rest of the world wants peace, and Bush is just a warmongerer who's out to make his oil buddies rich. Let's see what our friends in France, Germany, China, and Russia have to say about that: (From Apr. 1 2003) France France controls over 22.5 percent of Iraq’s imports.[1] French total trade with Iraq under the oil-for-food program is the third largest, totaling $3.1 billion since 1996, according to the United Nations.[2] (Just a note...remember from this point forward, anytime you see a reference to the UN-sponsored "Oil for Food" program...little to none of the money intended to help Iraq's citizens actually made it much farther than Saddam's bank accounts, as we've now learned from evidence found, something most of us suspected all along.) In 2001 France became Iraq’s largest European trading partner. Roughly 60 French companies did an estimated $1.5 billion in trade with Baghdad in 2001 under the U.N. oil-for-food program.[3] France’s largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated extensive oil contracts to develop the Majnoon and Nahr Umar oil fields in southern Iraq. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as much as 25 percent of the country’s oil reserves. The two fields purportedly contain an estimated 26 billion barrels of oil.[4] In 2002, the non-war price per barrel of oil was $25. Based on that average these two fields have the potential to provide a gross return near $650 billion. France’s Alcatel company, a major telecom firm, is negotiating a $76 million contract to rehabilitate Iraq’s telephone system.[5] In 2001 French carmaker Renault SA sold $75 million worth of farming equipment to Iraq.[6] More objections have been lodged against French export contracts with Iraq than any other exporting country under the oil-for-food program, according to a report published by the London Times. In addition French companies have signed contracts with Iraq worth more than $150 million that are suspected of being linked to its military operations.[7] Some of the goods offered by French companies to Iraq, detailed by UN documents, include refrigerated trucks that can be used as storage facilities and mobile laboratories for biological weapons. Iraq owes France an estimated $6 billion in foreign debt accrued from arms sales in the 1970s and ‘80s.[8] From 1981 to 2001, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), France was responsible for over 13 percent of Iraq’s arms imports.[9] Germany Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.[10] It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany’s “firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.” It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.[11] During the 35th Annual Baghdad International Fair in November 2002, a German company signed a contract for $80 million for 5,000 cars and spare parts.[12] In 2002, DaimlerChrysler was awarded over $13 million in contracts for German trucks and spare parts.[13] Germany is owed billions by Iraq in foreign debt generated during the 1980’s.[14] German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein’s Al Fao Supercannon project.[15] An article in the German daily Tageszeitung reported that of the more than 80 German companies that have done business with Baghdad since around 1975 and have continued to do so up until 2001, many have supplied whole systems or components for weapons of mass destruction. Russia Russia controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq’s annual imports.[16] Under the U.N. oil-for-food program, Russia’s total trade with Iraq was somewhere between $530 million and $1 billion for the six months ending in December of 2001.[17] According to the Russian Ambassador to Iraq, Vladimir Titorenko, new contracts worth another $200 million under the U.N. oil-for-food program are to be signed over the next three months.[18] Russia’s LUKoil negotiated a $4 billion, 23-year contract in 1997 to rehabilitate the 15 billion-barrel West Qurna field in southern Iraq. Work on the oil field was expected to commence upon cancellation of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. The deal is currently on hold.[19] In October 2001, Salvneft, a Russian–Belarus company, negotiated a $52 million service contract to drill at the Tuba field in Southern Iraq.[20] In April 2001, Russia’s Zaruezhneft and Tatneft companies received a service contract to drill in the Saddam, Kirkuk, and Bai Hassan fields to rehabilitate the fields and reduce water incursion. Together the deals were valued at $13.2 million.[21] A future $40 billion Iraqi–Russian economic agreement, reportedly signed in 2002, would allow for extensive oil exploration opportunities throughout western Iraq.[22] The proposal calls for 67 new projects, over a 10-year time frame, to explore and further develop fields in southern Iraq and the Western Desert, including the Suba, Luhais, West Qurna, and Rumaila projects. Additional projects added to the deal include second-phase construction of a pipeline running from southern to northern Iraq, and extensive drilling and gas projects. Work on these projects would commence upon cancellation of sanctions.[23] Russia’s Gazprom Company over the past few years has signed contracts worth $18 million to repair gas stations in Iraq.[24] The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From 1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms.[25] Soviet-era debt of $7 billion through $8 billion was generated by arms sales to Iraq during the 1980–1988 Iran–Iraq war. Three Russian firms are suspected of selling electronic jamming equipment, antitank missiles and thousands of night-vision goggles to Iraq in violation of U.N. sanctions.[26] Two of the companies identified are Aviaconversiya and KBP Tula. China China controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq’s annual imports.[27] China National Oil Company, partnered with China North Industries Corp., negotiated a 22-year-long deal for future oil exploration in the Al Ahdab field in southern Iraq.[28] In recent years, the Chinese Aero-Technology Import–Export Company (CATIC) has been contracted to sell “meteorological satellite” and “surface observation” equipment to Iraq. The U.N. oil-for-food program approved this contract.[29] CATIC also won approval from the U.N. in July 2000 to sell $2 million worth of fiber optic cables. This and similar contracts approved were disguised as telecommunications gear. These cables can be used for secure data and communications links between national command and control centers and long-range search radar, targeting radar, and missile-launch units, according to U.S. officials. In addition, China National Electric Wire & Cable and China National Technical Import Telecommunications Equipment Company are believed to have sold Iraq $6 million and $15.5 million worth of communications equipment and other unspecified supplies, respectively.[30] According to a report from SIPRI, from 1981 to 2001, China was the second largest supplier of weapons and arms to Iraq, supplying over 18 percent of Iraq’s weapons imports.[31] [1]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook. [2]Jon Talton, “French Ideals and Profits in the Iraqi Triangle”, The Arizona Republic, February 23, 2003. [3]Jon Talton, “French Ideals and Profits in the Iraqi Triangle,” The Arizona Republic, February 23, 2003. [4]Kenneth Katzman, Iraq: Oil-for-Food Program, International Sanctions, and Illicit Trade, Congressional Research Service, September 26, 2002. [5]Evelyn Iritani, “Hussein’s Government Signs Lucrative Contracts, Especially with Nations that Oppose the U.S. Led Effort to Oust the Regime,” The Los Angeles Times, November 11, 2002. [6] David Gauthier-Villars and John Carreyrou, “France Hopes to Use Old Ties to Land Role in Rebuilding Iraq”, The Wall Street Journal, March 26, 2003. [7] Stephen Grey and Jon Ungoed-Thomas, “France’s $150m Deals linked to Iraq Arms”, Sunday Times-London, February 23, 2003. [8] Faye Bowers, “Driving Forces in War-wary Nations: The Stances of France, Germany, Russia and China are colored by economic and national interests”, Christian Science Monitor, February 25, 2003. [9]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), “Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981–2001,” at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf. [10]David R. Sands, “France, Germany Protect Iraq Ties,” The Washington Times, February 20, 2003. [11]David R. Sands, “France, Germany Protect Iraq Ties,” The Washington Times, February 20, 2003. [12]“Africa Analysis—Trade Points Way to Peace”, The Financial Times: Asia Africa Intelligence Wire, November 19, 2002. [13]Faye Bowers, “Driving Forces in War-Wary Nations: The Stances of France, Germany, Russia and China Are Colored by Economic and National Interests,” Christian Science Monitor, February 25, 2003. [14] Faye Bowers, “Driving Forces in War-wary Nations: The Stances of France, Germany, Russia and China are colored by economic and national interests”, Christian Science Monitor, February 25, 2003. [15]“Helping Saddam Rearm,” The Wall Street Journal, October 11, 2002. [16]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook. [17]Testimony provided by Ariel Cohen to the House International Relations Committee, “Russia and the Axis of Evil: Money, Ambition and U.S. Interests,” February 26, 2003. [18]Nelli Sharushkina, “Russia Plays the Field in Iraq—Mixed Signals Worry Baghdad,” Energy Intelligence Briefing, February 5, 2003. [19]Dan Morgan and David B. Ottaway, “In Iraqi War Scenario, Oil Is Key Issue,” The Washington Post, September 15, 2002. [20]Dan Morgan and David B. Ottaway, “In Iraqi War Scenario, Oil Is Key Issue,” The Washington Post, September 15, 2002. [21] “Russia Angles to Protect Post-war Interests”, Energy Comapss, March 21, 2003 [22]Scott Peterson, “Russia’s Newest Tie to Iraq: Moscow Is Set to Sign a $40 billion Economic Pact with Baghdad Next Month,” Christian Science Monitor, August 20, 2002. [23]“Mideast Tensions to Delay Iraq Iraqi–Russian Signing,” Energy Compass, April 19, 2002. [24]Dmitry Zhdannikov, “Russian’s Grim About Working Under Saddam,” The Houston Chronicle, April 14, 2002. [25]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), “Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981–2001,” at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf. [26] Peter Slevin, “3 Russian Firms’ Deals Anger U.S.”, The Washington Post, March 23, 2003. [27]Central Intelligence Agency, The World Factbook 2002, at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook. [28]Trish Saywell, “Oil: The Danger of Deals with Iraq,” Far Eastern Economic Review, March 6, 2003. [29]Kenneth R. Timmerman, “Rogues Lending Hand to Saddam,” Insight on the News, March 4, 2003. [30]Kenneth R. Timmerman, “Rogues Lending Hand to Saddam,” Insight on the News, March 4, 2003. [31]Information from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), “Arms Transfers to Iraq, 1981–2001,” at http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/IRQ_IMPORTS_1982-2001.pdf. The point to all this is, there's motives for everything by every party involved. If we don't stand up for ourselves in this world, who will? Certainly not our "Allies". _______________ http://steamcommunity.com/id/citizen059 |
|
3th - Retired 
|
it will be interesting to see where all the fallout from the Clarke incedent lands the bush administration. Rahn, all of your words seem to imply that a democratic administration would have been unsucessful in hunting down and eliminating terrorists. i think that people are starting to see that the tactics of the bush admin have isolated us to a point of detrimental effect in the world perspective. i think that any democrat would be compelled to respond just as severily as the current admin has, the american people would have demanded it. it just would have happened in a way that didn't say "f*ck you" to the rest of the world. THAT is the primary failure of the bush admin. and i would say that the results of the poll on this thread reflect the global view of the current admin as leading the united states in the direction of continued global detriment. _______________ this is the internet, be serious damn it! |
|
Rahn del Sol - Student
|
Yes, I'm totally serious. As for trying to "back things up", I've been in so many political forum discussions in the past, I've just learned there's not often a real need to do that, unless you're just so far off the wall that it's totally unbelievable. Everyone posts their opinion, and nobody ever changes no matter what anyone else says. It's a waste of time to try. I used to spend like, a half hour on a post, citing references and dates and specific facts to back up my posts... Only to have everyone who disagreed with me just attack the source without even bothering to read the information contained. "Oh, well of COURSE that person would say something like that." "Oh, well, naturally you'd go to XXXX News Agency, they're just a conservative shill". etc etc. But, since it's "the way" to do things...I'll put it to you this way. We got hit on Sept. 11th, and got hit hard. It was really just one more in a string of attacks by al-Qaeda against US interests around the world, and it was the second attack they'd attempted on the World Trade Center. The American public really didn't seem to care, until that day. Despite what the talk radio hosts say, the Clinton administration didn't just sit back and do *nothing*. They just didn't do *enough*. They treated terrorism as a bunch of criminals who needed to be arrested and put in jail. As a result, tracking them down was difficult, if not impossible. After the Bush administration took office, they stepped up covert ops to try and take out al-Qaeda. After 9-11, Bush declared war on terrorism, changing the country's policy from one of law enforcement to military engagement. Look at what's happened since 9-11. Afghanistan has been freed from the Taliban...al-Qaeda still exists but is a shattered, splintered shell of its former self...Iraq is no longer under the rule of a murdering dictator who trained terrorists. Other countries have stepped up to the plate and surrendered their stockpiles of WMD's. Progress is being made that never happened under the law enforcement/terrorist appeasement policies that John Kerry wants to take us back to. I could post more, but I have to go to work now. If you have time, you might also read this: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/735tahyk.asp _______________ http://steamcommunity.com/id/citizen059 This comment was edited by Rahn del Sol on Mar 28 2004 04:41pm. |
|
Bail Hope of Belouve - Student 
|
haha sorry, but I just LOVE that bumper-sticker idea _______________ Visit the Belouve Family Website! Quote: I try to have fun with my friends and try to make a difference as best I can. What does making a difference mean? Well, it can be as simple as saying hello, answering a question that seems obvious or heck, just talking. -- Vladarion
Want to know Vladarion? Read the Article about his life here. This comment was edited by Bail Hope of Belouve on Mar 28 2004 04:38pm. |
|
Ulic Belouve - Student
|
Aw man. I applaude you. That's what I would like to say, but I'm too "scholarly" and "analytical" to say something like that without really backing it up. But if you put it on a bumper sticker, I'll buy one. Oh! And don't forget Kim Jong-Il, leader of North Korea, who wants Kerry to win so they have a better chance of keeping their nuclear weapons. So it should be: Quote: Islamic Terrorists and North Korean Nuclear Programs need your support! Vote for John Kerry in 2004! Sounds good for a bumper sticker. I should make one. Or maybe..... I can change my signature..... That's like a bumper sticker. Hrm..... _______________ Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. This comment was edited by Ulic Belouve on Mar 28 2004 04:22pm. |
| < Recent Comments | Login and add your comment! | Previous Comments > |